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Extraordinary Rendition

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I've debated whether or not to post this vignette for a year and a half.

The never-ending stream of suggestions that LEGO should release military-themed sets has me asking, "How far is too far?" (For the record, LEGO has stated that they have no plans to release any such sets.)

One reason I've held off posting this is that it just feels wrong. Well, that's because what it represents is wrong. Kidnapping people (no matter how evil some of them may indeed be) and shipping them off to "friendly" third-world countries for extrajudicial imprisonment or even torture is abhorrent.

Full editorial on www.brothers-brick.com/2008/07/06/should-lego-release-mod....

bezdomnyj82, and 43 other people added this photo to their favorites.

View 20 more comments

  1. Dezperado 70 months ago

    On the one hand, my first reaction was one of utter love for Rocko for saying what I wasn't going to.

    On the other hand, I think this discussion is over.

  2. Truman Nihilist 70 months ago

    I thought the discussion was over too...

  3. gambort 70 months ago

    And apologies to Andrew too.

    xGHOST86x> Justifying the killing of civilians in a war context justifies the events of 11/9. Are you sure you really wanted to do that? That's the problem with applying an 'us or them' caveat to morals, the 'us' and 'them' can be reversed.

  4. Truman Nihilist 70 months ago

    No, I guess I didn't want to do that. But I'm sure in the eyes of Islamic Fundamentalism, the events on 9/11 were entirely just. But do you at least understand where I'm coming from? At all?

    Another question. Do you guys know the ultimate goal of Islamic Jihad? Maybe we should just sit back and let it all happen.

    By the way, no one has yet to answer my question about what they would have done in that situation. I'm curious to know the answer.

  5. gambort 70 months ago

    I understand where you're coming from. I'm just pointing out how it's an illogical standpoint. When an argument can be used to justify the very thing you claim to be against then it's a pretty abysmal argument.

    The ultimate goal of many movements is poor. The actions of those movements is what's important. The ultimate goal of President Bush could be seen (seems) to be the Christianisation of the US and, less tolerably, other countries which is only marginally better than IJ's goals.

    What we would do in that situation is unimportant. Posing a string of loaded hypothetical questions does nothing for your (or my) argument and answering them does nothing for mine (or yours).

    Here's one for you: if a Navy SEALs could cold-bloodedly kill your parents to save 1000 lives would you be happy they did it?

  6. [Carter] 70 months ago

    I found interesting parallels in this story with the condoning of torture by the US. Bending international laws in this case worked great in freeing people held hostage for years, but in the long run will make it harder for the Red Cross to carry out humanitarian missions in contested areas. Similarly, torturing prisoners could be working great for the US, for all I know. We could be discovering tons of great intel, or, hell, maybe even preventing a terrorist attack thanks to some plucky Jack Bauer with a car battery and a set of jumper cables. But ignoring the ethical, moral and legal aspects for a minute, is the longterm damage we're doing to this country and our military worth the short term gains we're getting now? Especially since our current Administration, always so quick to gloat about any victory, has not released any statements talking about how much valuable intel we've received through "enhanced" interrogation?

  7. Truman Nihilist 70 months ago

    @ gambort -

    Yeah, I understand what you mean. No, I would be quite pissed. But who wouldn't be? It's a very relative situation though. Because on the other hand, those 1000 people would be quite thankful, wouldn't they?

    But you know what, forget it. We all have our opinions and respective points of view, and that probably won't be changing anytime soon. I just don't enjoy being called a "douchebag idiot" for posting my opinion just like everyone else.

  8. Rocko™ 70 months ago

    I'm sure you don't enjoy it. I wish you didn't have to earn that title but that's what you should expect in return for condoning murder. Your "respective" point of view isn't very respectful.

  9. Collin Harvey 70 months ago

    Rocko, bro, I love you, but chill out. You're not going to accomplish anything by dissing him. And I'm not saying that as someone who's trying to shut down those who disagree with what I support. I say it as your amigo.

    Really guys, what's the point anymore? We're all in agreement with the basic point regarding whether or not stuff like this can be posted, so can we just leave it at that? I look at this list of barely restrained comments, and it saddens me to no end that we're so close to unleashing out and out HATE against each other. Deny it if you want, but we're all guilty of that to some degree. And it's not what we're here for.

  10. captaincow 70 months ago

    tl;dr, indeed.

  11. Rocko™ 70 months ago

    Collin, don't give me that crap. First of all, you and I are not friends. You're just some Republican I know on the internet. Secondly, your thinly veiled attempt at playing the role of the compassionate conservative is a steaming load of dung. If you really cared about the direction this conversation was taking why jump on me to cool down without wanting your bloodthirsty comrade to do the same?

  12. Collin Harvey 70 months ago

    Ouch, man. Really.

    Sorry I even said anything, guys.

  13. Catsy [CC] 70 months ago

    Rocko, speaking as possibly one of the more liberal people in the room and someone who doesn't know you from Adam: chill out. Insulting people is clinically proven to do fuckall to change their mind.

    It frankly sickens me that this country even has to have a discussion about whether or not torture is ever okay. There are some things I wish were so self-evidently morally abhorrent that nobody with a functioning conscience even has to ask the question. But I'm also aware that this is precisely how many conservatives feel about, say, abortion or gay marriage. And despite the fact that they're wrong and I'm right ;) none of them are going to be convinced otherwise by calling them "douchebags".

  14. captaincow 70 months ago

    I am very much in agreement with those voicing out against torture, but this discussion has become less of a discussion and more of a trading of hostilities, which is helping no one. Andrew, I think it would probably be best to disable comments on this pic, if for nothing else, then to keep this argument from being public. By all means, flickr mail each other, but having all of this out in the wind is just making people judge each other.

  15. Dunechaser 70 months ago

    @PaulStintzi: A wise suggestion.

  16. Truman Nihilist 70 months ago

    @ Rocko - I'm assuming it's because his "bloody thirsty comrade" isn't angry. I'm not upset, and I don't expect everyone or even anyone to agree with me. No, I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians. I was simply saying that given the situation those SEALs were in, that was a decision they were faced with. And I could understand why. Thats it! Nothing else.

  17. Obxcrew [deleted] 70 months ago

    This has now become little more than a flame war, which is rather sad, seeing as we are all fellow LEGO hobbyists, and, in some cases, good friends.

  18. l OTTOMATIC l 70 months ago

    Andrew- I don't know if you realize this or not (you probably do just haven't done it yet) but you have to remove this photo from it's pools before turning off comments will work. ;)

  19. Dunechaser 70 months ago

    @Otto: Flickr Help did not help me understand that that was necessary. Thanks!

    @All: Thanks for the (mostly) civil conversation about several important issues facing our civilization today. But now that this is bordering on civil war, I'm closing down the comments -- at least for a while, until things cool down.

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