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Statistics. Again.

MichaelRyerson says:

It seems to me that statistics which update in something approximating real time is an essential feature of Flickr. Why is it so difficult, approaching impossible, to have up-to-date statistics??? Such a simple thing. So basic.
Posted at 7:38AM, 28 June 2015 PDT ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

How is the process of gathering real time stats simple? Can you explain?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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themadbirdlady says:

There is definitely something different about the stats recently, the count updates seem to be updating at intervals of 15 - 20 minutes or so. This doesn't seem to be connected to the new roll-out and only seems to have been happening for about a week at most. Prior to this, counts were updated nearly in real-time - if this was possible before - why is it not possible now?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

themadbirdlady:

Staff have said that is a deliberate decision
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/72157654986505045/#reply7...
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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MichaelRyerson says:

kmacgray:

If you don't think gathering 'views' information is the simplest, most basic programming feature of a site like Flickr then I can't help you. Go back to your Commodore.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

MichaelRyerson:

Thought you might know specifically how Flickr does it that makes it so simple.

I was mistaken, sorry about that.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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themadbirdlady says:

ColleenM:

Oh dear, another "improvement"
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

themadbirdlady:

They made a decision so they say to improve the speed for other functions. I think its a bad decision. It gives the impression we are not getting views which is not good for our interests or Flickr's. Last night i checked over 2 hours. It added views randomly about 3 times, that's not every 20 minutes. It just didn't seem to gel. I think it gives off bad vibes and its a bad image after all we pay for stats why should we suffer because Flickr wants to be some giant speedy dumpster or whatever?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

MichaelRyerson: This "essential feature" of Flickr is only available to a tiny subset of users (only those who retain the discontinued "Pro" accounts, which is about 3% of the total Flickr population). Perhaps Flickr agrees that the feature is more important than just an extra toy for a few thousand people, and are taking steps to give others access to the tool. Limiting the update intervals to 15 minutes may be a compromise to allow many MILLIONS more users to have their own stats page.

Alternately, perhaps they can no longer justify the resources the real-time stats were consuming, since only a tiny number of people have access to the feature. Maybe this was just a way to make the tool consume less resources so the site functions better for everyone.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito says:

In the future stats *may* become available for everyone, though in a new coat.

Although staff have not specified whether this would include *all* Flickr members alike:

yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/211185-us-flickr/suggestions/4...

Full quote:

"Thank you for sharing this feedback. We are working on new ways to bring stats to Flickr users, including new and different ways for displaying stats beyond the traditional stats dashboard. We’ll update you here when we’ve rolled out those changes."
.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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mcnod says:

If flickr added stats to the "Ad-Free" pay option, they might sell a lot more Ad-Free subscriptions. This would be a profitable way to bring stats to more people.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

The Searcher:

Then Flickr should allow more people to buy Pro accounts or alternatively give everyone stats then ad free won't cut it will it? I don't want ads, i never looks at ads they just clutter up the scene but i do want the stats functioning properly in real time.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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zuni48 says:

The Searcher:

Maybe this was just a way to make the tool consume less resources so the site functions better for everyone.

Are you seeing evidence of an improving UI to support this rationale for another degradation of previous functionality? It seems this forum is a wasteland of bugs, glitches, confusion, crashes and quality loss. And 3% (Pro accounts) of 51 million members represents over 1.5 million subscribers (not a few thousand)...who are at least paying something vs the other 49+ million who collectively contribute $0 to offset Flickr's site-related expenses.

And over the long term Flickr may find it more difficult to sell ad space if the features that keep people engaged with the site beyond simply uploading their images continue to be eroded. I find myself spending less time here as what was a once an interesting and fun diversion is becoming an increasingly frustrating, annoying, and tedious experience.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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mcnod says:

zuni48:

who are at least paying something vs the other 49+ million who collectively contribute $0 to offset Flickr's site-related expenses.

Not true. Advertisers pay for these other 49+ million, and likely they pay more than the six cents a day that you pay . . . .
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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lean route says:

**

The question, for me, is not how much you pay, the question is: Flickr offer some services if you pay, this is a kind of contract, doesn't matter if you pay $50 or $1000, when the enterprise is serious it is a obligation to deliver what was offered! Other way it is a complete lack of respect!
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

zuni48: The Pro accounts were discontinued precisely because $24 per year wasn't paying the weight of a user's costs compared to free accounts' advertising revenue. So people with "free" accounts are significantly more valuable to Flickr, at least as far as how much they "pay" for the site.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Flickr gave Stats to free account holders, and removed the feature from "Pro" accounts, to entice the few who remain to finally switch to the free accounts so Flickr can make more money off of them.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Susie Sun 2011: A change from semi-realtime stats to a 15 minute update cycle is a complete lack of respect? Really?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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lean route says:

The Searcher:

If you pay attention in what I wrote, I am "talking" about a posture to everything, I am talking about be serious and not play with the users, I am talking respect, and not only run behind the money and forget completely the respect to the users, I am talking about be clear, play right, but this is my opinion and my posture, so, worst blind is not who cannot see, but this one that don't want to see. About the 15 minutes, for me it is ok.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
lean route edited this topic 46 months ago.

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txmx 2 says:

zuni48:

BTW The "51 million user" figure is from a very old article by Thomas Hawk, presumably.

The latest statistics I found say it's 92 million users.

techcrunch.com/2014/02/10/flickr-at-10-1m-photos-shared-p...

3% old pro accounts = 2.760000 users a 24$ per year = 66.240000 $

This is not exactly peanuts.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
txmx 2 edited this topic 46 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

txmx 2: Well the 3% number is approximate as well. It could be way less. It was between 3-5% of all Flickr users at the time they cancelled the Pro account options in 2013. Since no one new can gain a Pro account, there's only attrition left. Plus any ballooning of Flickr membership since 2013 would also make that percentage go down just mathematically.

Considering Flickr created a new account, costing TWICE as much as the Pro account, and STILL puts adverts on that account anyway, I'm guessing that's closer to a break-even price point for them. $66mil isn't peanuts, but apparently it isn't sustainable either.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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txmx 2 says:

Agreed.
But for -say- 40 to 60 mil $ it should be possible to bring the stats back to realtime without loosing noticeable speed for the others IMHO. (It's more fun!)
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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zuni48 says:

txmx 2:

(It's more fun!

...and that was the ultimate point of my previous post. Free or paid members will likely reduce their time on this site if the trend toward technical hurdles and/or feature degradation continues. Advertisers may demand lower rates or pull out altogether.
One reason (of many) that FB has been reporting robust advert revenue growth is that a lot of its members spend a lot of time engaged with the site. Flickr ought to be encouraging its members to do the same.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

Susie Sun 2011:

I agree. Its a contract when users of Grandfathered Pro decided to continue paying for what was offered as a Pro account, its not about the relative value to Flickr. As an account sold Flickr should honour the agreement to deliver what was it described. Flickr is now reducing its commitment by delivering ad hoc updates as opposed to real time.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Di's Free Range Fotos:

the agreement to deliver what was it described.

I don't see anything in that agreement that says the stats will be delivered in real time. Four times an hour seems like reasonable compromise to ensure that everyone on Flickr still gets fast service, not just the dwindling number of Pro subscribers.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

Having stats update in real time seems like a lot of unnecessary overhead on the back end, as staff have already stated. Flickr's infrastructure is fragile enough.

I know stats are a very critical feature for some, but is having them in real time equally as important?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Patrick Costello says:

Maybe they could provide a button to refresh stats on demand in near real time. I'm sure many of us would only actually hit it once or twice a week, whilst the few die hards desperate to know how many views they got in the last 5 minutes could go ahead and knock themselves out.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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47604 says:

If you click on todays date on the graph above the stats data it gives you an up to date total. By refreshing to page this increases till the 15 minute update.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
47604 edited this topic 46 months ago.

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

ColleenMAgreements are always 2 way. If there is a change to what is being offered Flickr,as they had to in 2013, have to explain and offer a refund if the contract is no longer what both parties signed up to. You may think this change offers what Pro users had previously but it is quite legitimate to think it doesn't as now the updates can be delivered after a delay of whatever time Flickr chooses. I personally have reasons i like to check on the progress of certain recent uploads beside it seems a slippery slope where they are balancing what a paid for by personal customers account gets against an account which is supported by ads and delivered free. In this case a Pro account may get what they paid for eventually but eventually is the operative word, a change has been made and that is then between the individual customer and Flickr not the same thing as the customer being told this is now good enough for you. Grandfathered generally means the terms are frozen in time as they were at the time.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Di's Free Range Fotos: Legally, and if you read the TOS you agreed to, grounds for a refund occur if there is a "substantial" change to the site's features. For example, when Flickr did a complete redesign of the site, that could count as a "substantial" change. I'm not sure a delay in reporting view numbers would count as "substantial." But I guess maybe it could, if that was a core feature you used all the time.

You could appeal to Flickr and ask for a prorated refund of the remainder of your Pro account. They have complied to individual requests in the past. Keep in mind that if they agree, you will lose your Pro status, stats will be gone, your account will be full of full-page advertisements, and you won't be able to re-apply for a Pro account ever again.

But if that's worth the $17 or whatever's left on your subscription, then just for basic consumer fairness I say go for it.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

The Searcher:

Yes i think you get what i'm saying but i don't want to lose my Pro status for those very reasons so you could say they've got me over a barrel" More than that i see it as them doing as they please with accounts that are already done and dusted, signed and sealed etc. They might be checking how far they can go before they get objections. As for 'substantial' if i actually wanted a refund more than i want a Pro account i'm sure i could justifiably reason this was a substantial change for me but i'd rather have them realize how much some people like to have stats and how some people don't like to see the qualities they like about Flickr downgraded.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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47604 says:

Di's Free Range Fotos:

read my comment 3 above.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Steve Taylor (Photography) says:

Everyone please stick to the subject: The stats are not updating, which is the reason I have a Pro account
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Steve Taylor (Photography): That's incorrect. The stats are updating. Flickr just changed the update rate to approximately every fifteen minutes. And I just refreshed the stats page and the count went up, so that's sort of real time.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Steve Taylor (Photography):

Staff have said that is a deliberate decision
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/72157654986505045/#reply7...
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Paula Satijn says:

As remarked before the stats graph gives updated real-time statistics, whereas the stats table only refreshes once every 20 minutes or so. I see no reason whatsoever (speed of the site blah-blah) why the table could not be updated just like the graph.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Bernie Condon says:

"As remarked before the stats graph gives updated real-time statistics, whereas the stats table only refreshes once every 20 minutes or so. I see no reason whatsoever (speed of the site blah-blah) why the table could not be updated just like the graph"

+1

The explanation given for stats no longer updating on every refresh is batted for 6 by that very point.

Me thinks we are being told porkies. Is this simply a case of Flikr can't be bothered to fix a bug?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

Or perhaps they don't consider stats updating in real time to be such a big deal. Every 15 minutes will have to do and seems reasonable.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Paula Satijn says:

kmacgray:

Or perhaps they don't consider stats updating in real time to be such a big deal. Every 15 minutes will have to do and seems reasonable.


Indeed service to paying pro users seems not such a big deal to Flickr. I don't really mind 15 minute delay but the table used to be real-time like the graph and it worked fine so why change it.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

Paula Satijn:

so why change it

Did you read the reply from staff explaining why, which has been linked to twice in this thread?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Scarlet Pimpernel says:

MabelAmber® ***Pluto5339*** Queen of Streetshots:

In the future stats *may* become available for everyone, though in a new coat.

Although staff have not specified whether this would include *all* Flickr members alike:



Personally I would have thought that flickr is way overdue when it comes to giving all member the chance to see stats.. I've never seen them myself as I've never had a paid pro account. They didn't even give free members the chance to see stats even when they gave all free member pro for a month one Xmas.. I think that was the Xmas just before all the flickr changes in 20th May 2013.

I can never understand why there is view counts on each photo, but we can't see what's going on across the whole account photostream...

I lot of pro members keep going on about ads all over place on free accounts. I very rarely ever see ads.. Not to say that flickr isn't going to stick them all over the place.. Though what i've seen from the media, sites like flickr have to be very careful not to flood its site with too many ads, as this would drive members away. It has to be a fine balance...

I'm guessing that flickr will eventually cut it's loses and do away with pro payments altogether.. I'm sure they would like to see everything clean and tidy the way they want it without wondering if pro members will demand more because they pay..


...
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
Scarlet Pimpernel edited this topic 46 months ago.

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Paula Satijn says:

kmacgray:

Yes, I did read the Flick explanation but it makes no sense as the graph is still in real-time and the table is not anymore. I wrote that earlier in this thread, did you read that? Copying the real-time number of the graph to the table is not a big deal and should not cause slowing down of the site or loosing functionality imho.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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SportscarFan917 says:

I'm disappointed we can no longer see real-time stats, I enjoyed seeing them increase over a short space of time, as happens occasionally. I suppose I will have to learn to be more patient!

Thanks for the tip re the graph still being real-time. I'll make the most of that before that changes too!
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito says:

Scarlet Pimpernel:

Actually I cannot give you the answers to your questions - I merely linked to the staff response on User Voice, for information's sake.

eta
.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito edited this topic 46 months ago.

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kmacgray says:

Paula Satijn:

Yes, I did read the Flick explanation but it makes no sense as the graph is still in real-time and the table is not anymore. I wrote that earlier in this thread, did you read that?

Yes, I did read that.

Copying the real-time number of the graph to the table is not a big deal and should not cause slowing down of the site or loosing functionality imho.

Regardless of what should happen and whether it is a big deal, that's not what staff have decided to do. They've decided to have stats update every 15 minutes, for the reasons they have explained.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Paula Satijn:

Copying the real-time number of the graph to the table is not a big deal and should not cause slowing down of the site or loosing functionality imho.


Flickr staff have a lot more data than you or I do about how the site functions. They get to see all the actual data from the servers.

Based on their data, they think the real-time display of stats IS a big deal and IS causing the slowing down of the site. They have made some changes in how Flickr functions in order to help deal with the problems.

Opinions in this thread are not based on actual data. Repeatedly stating that something shouldn't be true isn't going to change the data. Nor is it going to change Flickr staff's response to that data.

The stats are refreshed every 15 minutes. No matter what fantasy you believe about how it "should" work, that's not reality. Staff have explained the reality. We can either accept it or we can go around in our own fantasy world depressed about how at odds it is with our actual experience.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Bernie Condon says:

"Flickr staff have a lot more data than you or I do about how the site functions. They get to see all the actual data from the servers.

Based on their data, they think the real-time display of stats IS a big deal and IS causing the slowing down of the site. They have made some changes in how Flickr functions in order to help deal with the problems.

Opinions in this thread are not based on actual data. Repeatedly stating that something shouldn't be true isn't going to change the data. Nor is it going to change Flickr staff's response to that data.

The stats are refreshed every 15 minutes. No matter what fantasy you believe about how it "should" work, that's not reality. Staff have explained the reality. We can either accept it or we can go around in our own fantasy world depressed about how at odds it is with our actual experience. "

The error in your theory is that some of us are also developer programmers.

If a sum has been done for the graph there is NO performance penalty using that number in a table.

You can try it for yourself in a simple excel spreadsheet by doing a sum in code, and timing it. Then repeating that total in a different cell and timing adding that to the total. Trust me, there will be no difference.

That's what's become the issue here, that the explanation for changing matters makes no sense at all, performance will not have improved.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Bernie Condon:

that the explanation for changing matters makes no sense at all,

Whether or not it makes sense, that's how it works now.

I don't see any attempt by staff to deal with our need to understand everything before we can accept it. Some stuff is just going to be illogical.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Bernie Condon says:

Sorry, but some of us are not simply going to accept that "Thats the way it is".

Especially when in reality, no it's not the way it is.

The explanation is crap, rubbish, untrue, BS. It cannot be correct.

It's very simple, a total appears in 2 places, a graph and a table, but it only needs to be calculated once.

So, if a total appears in the graph which is constantly being updated, re-using that has no performance issue, in effect the result is a freebie, like paying for a coke once and having all the refills you like.

Right so having established that there's only one Sum needed, and thats being done all the time, and you can re use that result with no penalty, I'm sure even you can follow that the explanation doesn't hold any water.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Bernie Condon:

I'm sure even you can follow that the explanation doesn't hold any water.

Even if I follow the explanation, it doesn't mean that stats will refresh more frequently.

I understand what you are saying. My stats don't refresh faster because I understand. Nor do yours.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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txmx 2 says:

Bernie Condon:

Bravo! Thank you for the comment!

After so many threads and speculations about the future of "grandfathered accounts" or "pro accounts" it seems to be a strategy to scare off / get rid of the unloved few. (only about 2 mil users..)

EDIT:
Less then 1 mil, as reported by staff member Matthew Almon Roth
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
txmx 2 edited this topic 46 months ago.

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Paula Satijn says:

ColleenM:

The stats are refreshed every 15 minutes. No matter what fantasy you believe about how it "should" work, that's not reality. Staff have explained the reality. We can either accept it or we can go around in our own fantasy world depressed about how at odds it is with our actual experience.


I know how stats work now and I know that chances are 0% that Flickr is going to improve them back to how they used to work. That's not the point. Like remarked by others as well the Flickr explanation of this change is questionable. But hey, that's all part of my twisted fantasy world and surely not correct. After all Flickr always cares a lot about their pro users.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito says:

Paula Satijn:

+1
.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

Bernie Condon:

Sorry, but some of us are not simply going to accept that "Thats the way it is".

What's the other option?
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Bernie Condon says:

Colleen

That's the point, the fact is that the stats ARE refreshed constantly, it's simply not being displayed where it used to be in the table, but are if you hover over the graph.

There is no reason on gods earth why that should be the case, certainly not that fiction being peddled and swallowed by some that seem to be a few trains short of a full service.

Now, if Flikr woke up one morning last week, and thought to it's corporate self,

"You know what, we'll bugger the pro users about a bit"

Then that's fine, provided they come clean and tell us that.

Or if this is simply someone replying to a question not knowing what they are talking about, then it's time to put their hands up.

But I see no reason to accept piss poor customer service shrugging shoulders and mumbling "Oh thats the way it is...."

That's how dictators come to power!

We pay for a service, it is therefore only reasonable in any contract law that the contract is adhered to, that's what we are asking for, along with some openness and honesty!
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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kmacgray says:

Bernie Condon:

There is no reason on gods earth why that should be the case

But it is. Whether it seems unreasonable or not.

That's how dictators come to power!

And that's where this thread jumps the shark.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Bernie Condon:

it is therefore only reasonable in any contract law that the contract is adhered to,

I don't think you've read your contract carefully.
Have your lawyer explain it to you when you ask her to file the lawsuit.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Matthew Almon Roth says:

zuni48:

And 3% (Pro accounts) of 51 million members represents over 1.5 million subscribers (not a few thousand)...who are at least paying something vs the other 49+ million who collectively contribute $0 to offset Flickr's site-related expenses.

Just to clarify the numbers a bit: There are more than 113 million Flickr accounts. And fewer than 1 million Pro members.

But that said, we love our Pro members (both because we all are awesome and engaged, and because that's not an insignificant amount of money we all pay in aggregate)! I hope no one gets the impression otherwise.

-Matthew
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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txmx 2 says:

explicit figures from a staff member .

("we love our Pro members"..From your lips to God's ears.)

"fewer than 1 million Pro members" oha.. far below the estimations here. (me included).

thanks Matthew Almon Roth for the information.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
txmx 2 edited this topic 46 months ago.

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Scarlet Pimpernel says:

Matthew Almon Roth:

Just to clarify the numbers a bit: There are more than 113 million Flickr accounts. And fewer than 1 million Pro members.



I wonder how many members have more than one account these days on average?

And fewer than 1 million Pro members. seems quite small on the scale of things. That number must be getting smaller each day as there is no offer for Pro to anyone else ?


...
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito says:

Matthew Almon Roth:

And fewer than 1 million Pro members

Scarlet Pimpernel

as there is no offer for Pro to anyone else ?

Actually I see members who joined after May 20 2013, with Pro accounts - strange -

EDIT : some who joined in 2015, but Pro ----

.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )
MabelAmber️®***Pluto5339*** incognito edited this topic 46 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

Wow, less than 1% Pro users. And here I thought I was low-balling it at 3%.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Di's Free Range Fotos says:

Matthew Almon Roth:

Really pleased to hear you love your Pro members especially with all the Pro bashing you get on this forum.
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

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Scarlet Pimpernel says:

Matthew Almon Roth:

fewer than



How many fewer than, or less than ?


...
Posted 46 months ago. ( permalink )

This thread was closed automatically due to a lack of responses over the last month.

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