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[Official Topic] German SafeSearch settings

Flickr Staff

Stewart says:

As of a short time ago, we changed the way the content filter setting works for German members, allowing them to turn SafeSearch off to allow photos flagged as 'moderate'. As we’ve stated before, Flickr’s intent is never to censor content, but rather to comply with local legal restrictions. In Germany, local law (Jugendmedien-Staatsvertrag JMStV) requires stringent age verification in order to display online content that could be considered harmful to minors.

After further researching our available options, we decided to adjust our policy in Germany to enable pictures rated as “moderate” to be visible for our users starting today. We've received plenty of feedback from our members on this and hopefully this change helps address some of the desires expressed while still complying with legal requirements regarding age verification.

We are still limiting access for users in Germany to the "restricted" category on Flickr, which applies to pictures not considered appropriate for kids and teenagers according to local law. At this stage, pictures rated as "restricted" can only be uploaded and viewed privately, but not displayed publicly.

We are continuing to actively evaluate various technical options, including exploring whether there is a way we can verify users' age which would meet the very high standards set by German law, and which would offer additional choice to our members in Germany.

Here's a link to our post in the German forum.

[This thread carries over from the previous one.]
Posted at 5:43PM, 20 June 2007 PDT ( permalink )
heather (staff) edited this topic 66 months ago.

← prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 42 43
(1 to 100 of 4,255 replies in [Official Topic] German SafeSearch settings)
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Proggie says:

but what about content that should be restricted but is not flagged properly? that content would not comply with this law. This solution doesn't address that type of content. Are these measures good enough to comply if anyone can still see content that should be restricted?

I guess everyone will be wondering why bother with restricting content that is flagged "restricted" if restricted content can still be seen?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Proggie edited this topic 83 months ago.

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oc65 says:

Thanks, Stewart, and flickr staff, for your patience. Must have been stressful.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Baywhale says:

Is this it? Where are the answers to all the questions posed in the thread you closed? Stewart, please provide those answers starting with an explanation of why you saw fit to disregard the deadline that you set.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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gocarrt says:

I don't care about the deadline...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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shining example says:

so flickr intends to continue treating adults like children, although there's no need for it (see www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91468).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Felicea says:

A very small steak for the hungry tigers out here..
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

"saw fit"? What are we in the 18th century?

Proggie: in and among the enormous arm-chair lawyering in the other thread, and from Stewart's previous comments, I'd say it's about basic compliance with German law, not a 100% no chance any bad content would ever slip through. If they had staff there "allowing" content to be seen, then those people could get into legal trouble. But if there's a system in place, then compliance can at least be shown, and staff could respond to any request to filter content.

[Since the blocking stands to a lesser degree now, some sort of lengthier explanation of why there's such a disconnect between why Flickr feels it needs to follow these laws, and all these other people seem to think the law shouldn't apply to Flickr, would probably be really helpful, and sooner rather than later.]
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
The Searcher edited this topic 83 months ago.

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automaton says:

The current approach is a total non-solution. The "content that could be considered harmful to minors" will certainly still exist and simply be miscategorized. Content filtering is VERY HARD to do, and naive attempts to do so routinely trample on legitimate uses. If you want to comply with the law, you should probably just go with age-verification which, while also tricky, is only a technical problem. Content filtering on the other hand gets into the murky waters of semantics and subjectivity.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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7ff says:

Thanks Steward,

I whish that in the future you would communicate earlier and more openly. I'm sad to say that I have my doubt about that.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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atomicity says:

I have the same question as Proggie—how does this actually address the issue? doesn't the JMStV apply to any content, no matter what it's flagged by users—even comments that incite hate, speak gloriously of war, etc?

Even though I'm not in Germany, I don't understand how flickr could have gone along with entering into a local german setting knowing that this would be the situation (when at least from an outsiders perspective, its seems like staying out of germany would have been a perfectly fine scenario from the point of view of german users, and probably from a business point of view considering the PR damage done by this whole debacle) The lack of foresight and willingness to go into such a compromised situation just doesn't make sense, and the lack of responses explaining the rationale for the current situation doesn't make sense. (I understand if the solutions under consideration can't be discussed, but why couldn't someone clue us in as to what has happened to lead to this point?)

*baffled*
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

automaton: if there's age verification, it would be only to allow people 18 and over to view filtered content. So your issues with the fallibility of content filtering would still be totally valid and unchanged. In other words, why would filtering work just because people could prove they're 18?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

they did exactly what i predicted. no surprise.

"moderate" not blocked anymore. "restricted" still blocked to german (for now). other countries, still censored. i place my bet on that.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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automaton says:

The Searcher: if they could prove they were 18, you wouldn't need filtering at all, if I'm not mistaken -- based on Stewart's comment.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
automaton edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Multitude says:

let´s have a look on what the oracle said:

Multitude Pro User says:

Also Steward already implied, that the "Switch-off" function is not beeing restored, and that the affected users won´t be able to see all the photos as before the incident.

Saying: "We hope to have an announcement within 24 hours that (most) people will be happ(ier) with." (So a handcuffed person becomes happier by been a little less hard handcuffed, but quit not as happy as a free person would be.)

It also implies, that the small improvement is addressed towards the German users, while the situation for the affected Asian users will mostly or completely stay the same. Not only because they (in opposite to the German users) have laws that do request a censorship, but also because a aim on the Asian market does require a more restrictive approach to meet the interests of the governments and also the investors.

Of course these are wild guesses, but they aren´t so fare from what happened in the past. So let´s wait and see if the oracle is right ;-)


Well well, not so bad.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

this is a pretty marginal "solution" stewart. while i appreciate the weight of the problem, and have spent a lot of effort (which no doubt you have seen) to quell the outrage in one group in particular, this is a somewhat paltry compromise.

i also appreciate that relocation of service to german servers is probably the trigger to this event, to be brief, it is not unreasonable for members to see precisely the statutes, quoted exactly in german from the general laws, that have led to this.

there may be more than one smart person who might be able to help with this, AND members deserve a reasonable explanation of why they were denied services for so long.

this may go a long way in soothing people's feelings.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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axeo says:

There are people who don't like the word "censorship" and have based their arguments on the narrow definition of censorship. I suggested in another
post that it be replaced with the words "blocking filter" in order to tone down the drama.

News: Flickr continues to enforce blocking filters on Germany.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
axeo edited this topic 83 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

automaton: No, filtering is still here for everyone, because not everyone WANTS to see all content, regardless of age. The filtering is for more than just age groups, it's for cultural and personal choices, as well. So if it doesn't work, age verification won't make it suddenly work. Might make it technically legal in Germany, however.

Loupiote: yep, you called it. I'm a little shocked, as this solution seems tailor made to have been doable several days ago.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

multi, we are in near 100% accord here. and in some ways, that is bad.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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axeo says:

Flickr continues to enforce blocking filters on Germany....without even knowing if the content being blocked is illegal or not.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Felicea says:

It's sad, so sad
It's a sad, sad situation
And it's getting more and more absurd
It's sad, so sad
Why can't we talk it over
Oh it seems to me
That sorry seems to be the hardest word
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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ulaB [unable to see restricted pictures] says:

I'm still curious who told you about the JMStV and its restrictions. Even the head of jugendschutz.net (THE German organisation for "child protection" made it quite clear that restricting images like this is way over what is required by the law. (See www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91468 - German though).

He even said that Flickr would not have to filter at all, because in respect to the laws Flickr is a hosting provider who only has to remove illegal content if someone tells it to.

In addition those laws are to protect children from hardcore pornography (intercourse, erected penises, etc.) and not nude women or breasts... Pictures like that can be found in the biggest German newspaper daily on page one. Even the biggest German teen magazine "Bravo" shows naked male and female bodies with a story about the first time of those teens...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

ther-esa: i am in no position to argue your nomenclature, since it is actually very very accurate.

the application of the "blocking filter" is egregious only because of the lack of explanation. frankly, i think the term "embargo of content" is more appropriate.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dancing Deer Photography says:

There would not be Hungry Tigers if Gemany or any other member users would learn how to use the filtering sytem instead of whining, go back and read the two middle paragraphs, this is the best Flickr can do right now and they are working other issues. They did the best they can and they have done alot. Of course there is going to be the childish one, not happy with anything Flickr does in this case, but they odviously aren't happy with anything in life either. Nobody gets a free hand out here, Flickr can't do much for you if you can't comprehende the filtering system, duh, ask in the forum specificly, or a group member to help you set your filters they do have "help by e mail" but if you can figure out filters, guess you haven't figured out flickr mail yet..Go back and read the two middle paragraphs instead of instagating more mass histeria. Flickr is doing the best they can, it takes alot for one company to take on a whole countrys laws.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Dancing Deer Photography edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Multitude says:

>In Germany, local law (Jugendmedien-Staatsvertrag JMStV) requires stringent age verification in order to display online content that could be considered harmful to minors.

So now your great solution does even less apply to the German law. Nice job!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Proggie says:

seems like there is no possible way to really comply unless you can't even enter the site without being 18, and if that's the case then the law is stupid and/or trying to comply is pointless.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

this announcement would be nice in the "Flickr News" and "Flickr Blog" sections...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Brenda Anderson says:

if they could prove they were 18, you wouldn't need filtering at all, if I'm not mistaken

That would then mean that Flickr could ONLY be used by people who verified their age as 18+. What about all the non-members who view photos? What about all the teenagers who have accounts? You can't do 'age verification only' unless you apply it to everyone. Somehow I don't think Flickr wants to go down that path.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

ulaB - i don't think stiff willies is the full extent of the problem here...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

So if Germany is unable to see "restricted" content, does that mean that they are then also unable to upload "restricted" content? I mean, can they still flag images as "restricted"? Or more to the point, why would they bother, if that feature is more or less removed? If in Germany, now there's only two settings: "safe" and "moderate", won't it just end up moving all content that's not "safe", into "moderate?

In other other words: I hope Flickr has some planning (finally) for extra staff to handle the potential wave of filtering policing that they're going to have to do from now on.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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yinyang says:


so many experts out there who seem to know what flickr should or can do, and when flickr does provide something, they seem to think it's not enough, or that it wasn't done quickly enough, or that it deosn't suit them, or some other pedantic cause for more complaints!

well if you're all so clever then why not go start up your own flickr and show stewart & co how it's supposed to be done......!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

no, brenda... it means that those who prove their ages to the satisfacton of the german authorities can view unlimited content.

i think we had this conversation, in concept, about a year ago.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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shining example says:

from the heise article linked above:

Seiner Auskunft nach geht die Lösung "über die gesetzliche Verpflichtung hinaus", weil ein Dienst wie Flickr rechtlich als Host-Provider zu behandeln sei, der nur auf Hinweis zur Entfernung von illegalen Inhalten verpflichtet ist.

According to [the guy from the german authority responsible for youth protection on the internet], the solution "goes beyond the legal requirements" because a service such as flickr is legally to be considered a hosting provider and therefore only obliged to remove illegal content when informed of its existence.

(emphasis mine)

plus what atomicity said.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

and german people, remember despite what Stewart said, that you *can* still see public "restricted" photos (without having to create a US yahoo-ID).

it is just slightly convoluted and involves exploiting a flickr bug.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

ulaB: "and not nude women or breasts"

correct. That's why Germany can now see "moderate" images, which generally includes artistic nudity and breasts. The hardcore stuff is the "restricted" level.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

searcher: that was a very good question.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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automaton says:

The Searcher, I'm agreeing with you. Filtering doesn't work, so it shouldn't be done. I was suggesting that age verification could be done instead to comply with German laws. Even that may be unnecessary.

Brenda: I definitely don't want to go down that path either, but I think it's a solution that could actually work (unlike content filters) if people insisted on preventing minors from seeing potentially offensive material.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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limone says:

Well at least that's one step into the right direction - it would have been good if you had handled it that way from the beginning and communicated it in advance and in a way that nobody could overlook it and then people would have had the chance to discuss a solution that's satisfying for everybody. Filters are one thing, but the way how this specific local solution was introduced (or rather sneaked in) is the real problem IMHO.

However, do you remember the hiccup of the image cache server a few months ago where suddenly porn pics appeared in other people's photostreams? If this can happen again, it would be a serious issue regarding compliance with youth protection laws.

Age verification for any flickr user wouldn't work because one thing that makes flickr so interesting for Yahoo is the use of the content for its other portals, so the safe pictures have to be visible even if you are not logged in or the service wouldn't be feasible for them.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
limone edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Proggie says:

ulaB: it now appears they lowered the filter to allow moderate content precisely because of the how harmless nudity is viewed in germany. Why they didnt' do that from the start is probably an over reaction on their part. I wish moderate content was available to EVERYONE not just those logged in and with the safe search off (like google allows you to do with cookies).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Mathieu Bertrand Struck says:

Stewart: can you post, with specific details, which are the "very high standards set by German law".

A lot of german users (and some lawyers also) are convinced that these standards aren´t exactly what Flickr (or should we say Yahoo) is pretending they are.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

To those throngs of people who are going to continue to cite one legal source or another (my favorite is the brother who was in law school. now that's authority right there.) explaining that Flickr did NOT have to go this far, I would really like any of them to produce an example web site in the same position as Flickr that is NOT using Age Verification.

Servers and staff sitting in Germany.
Adult content available to view.

Because really, I'd like to see the examples of how Flickr's getting it so wrong and no one else is complying to this draconian degree.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

@Stewart

At this stage, pictures rated as "restricted" can only be uploaded and viewed privately, but not displayed publicly.

but german members can upload a "restricted" photo, make it public so that people allowed to see "restricted" in other countries can see it, right?

german law does not prevent that, right?

(can some german member try?)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Mathieu Bertrand Struck says:

The Searcher: I´m just asking Stewart a formal justification to Flickr acts based on the german law. All we have is speculation - on both sides. I think it´s an important answer they must give.

edit: I don´t want "one legal source or another", just the specific legal reason (the law, the court rule, etc.) that Flickr is based to act like that. I´m a lawyer, by the way.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Mathieu Bertrand Struck edited this topic 83 months ago.

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klickercgn says:

Sorry Stewart,

you and the company, you represent, has shown, that you do not have a look on the needs of your members, this can happen, but should not.

You did not care of social needs like communication.

You did not care of well minded presented know how of members, this is bad.

You did not post in time, and this, I think, does not only hurt me in understanding of this community.

And at least and according to so much posts before, you did something, which is not responding to german law and/or the needs of about 11% of your viewers. You used this kind of argumentation before in the now closed filter thread..

Anything, what now happens, is well deserved, so all the best for you, your staff, and the company you represent!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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thodue says:

they released a simple "press statement" - and i guess, that it was dictated by yahoo. compare the english and the german version, in both statements not a word to us, to the community. we all have made flickr to what it (is) was and we deserved more.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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artelisa says:

@ atomocity
thank you for your words:

"I don't understand how flickr could have gone along with entering into a local german setting knowing that this would be the situation (when at least from an outsiders perspective, its seems like staying out of germany would have been a perfectly fine scenario from the point of view of german users, and probably from a business point of view considering the PR damage done by this whole debacle) The lack of foresight and willingness to go into such a compromised situation just doesn't make sense, and the lack of responses explaining the rationale for the current situation doesn't make sense."

i can only repeat this !!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Proggie says:

so just to get this right, all these restrictions are necessary only because flickr now has staff in germany (since launch of german localization)? Why not just have german speaking staff elsewhere? Wouldn't that solve everything?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

i think it not unreasonable to view that as a groundbreaker in this type of service offering (multi language localized local-emanated content) that yahoo may have jumped the gun a bit to be (days) ahead of google's similar launch for youtube. interestingly, after seeing this hogdump of a mess, google did NOT launch in Germany.

hmm.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Rippie: Contra Censura! edited this topic 83 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

Automaton: no I disagree a bit. Filters do work, can work, but only as a social mechanism that encourages choice. once the tools are different for different people, and the system is co-opted as a way to block content instead of creating choice, that's when it falls apart. Because it's a voluntary system, with much subjectivity. But now, entering into that subjectivity is the additional constraint that one option means huge groups of people won't ever see the image. So if I'm on the fence with an image, my choice now is colored not just by the content, but by the larger social consequences of my actions.

bottom line, people are going to be, some with malicious intent but most not, choosing to err on the side of "moderate" from now on.

And that means the filters are, if not broken, the no longer working as intended.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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shining example says:

Servers and staff sitting in Germany.

see, that's your mistake right there... why have servers and staff in germany if it's going to cause problems like this? as far as I recall, flickr worked just fine without either.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

searcher: well, that's not entirely true. if this had been launched without filters, the ENTIRE system might be down to accomodate german statute. sucks to be german, but not as bad for most of the rest of the world... unless you are singaporean, chinese, etc...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Multitude says:

So why doesn´t yahoo just close the german flickr section and put it in non-german servers again. the german offices and staff can stay. it´s not as if yahoo is only based on flickr.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Shining example: no that's Flickr's mistake. Absolutely. I assume this sort of caught them after the fact, and once they had staff and resources committed, not so easy to back out. I would think a focus group session or survey among German users would have been a good idea ("Would you prefer to see photos on Flickr, or text in German?" might have been a good question #1)

Mathieu: oh yes totally. On the one side, we have the speculators. But on the Flickr side, it would be a really really really great idea to lay out why their lawyers' kung-fu is supposedly better.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
The Searcher edited this topic 83 months ago.

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axeo says:

Define "artistic nudity" as applied to amateur artists. Some well recognized artists can be quite confrontational in their presentations. What if some amateur photographer aspired to be a better "artist" and his or her interests included nudes or sexual suggestions? Who is going to decide? Why do they have to judge (flag) their own work based on what they guess might offend someone in Germany or might be illegal for a minor to look at?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

here we have the clash of wants: many wanted localized content, relevant to THEIR nation/region. here we are.

all i will say is that long preparation makes for one-time implementation.

it is safe to say that since the first was not done, the second will not be either.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kiff ta race / under censure says:

loupiote (Old Skool) Pro User says:

this announcement would be nice in the "Flickr News" and "Flickr Blog" sections...



that's what i'm waiting... an official announcement !
not a technical modification
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Kiff ta race / under censure edited this topic 83 months ago.

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David Jackmanson says:

@The Searcher,

It is Yahoo's Flickr that is claiming that German law meant they had to censor photos for German users.

If Yahoo's Flickr wants their user base to believe them, then they would do well to say more than 'German Law requires"...

The head of a child protection organisation in Germany, jugenschutze.net, has already claimed that the censorship goes far beyond what is required by German law:

www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/91468

Yahoo's Flickr has not backed its claims very well at all.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

-
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
fandorinmusic edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Multitude says:

@Rippie

you think it sucks that german asks for a age verification, so minors can´t see hardcore porn on german sites?

What´s so bad about a age verification? It´s not as if you would give away information that hasn´t already been transfered with your payment data.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

multi: that may be the fix. i've wondered that, too. there is a "backout" plan in that, which google took.

stewart may be constrained by orders from yahoo in doing that, so...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Proggie says:

Would be nice to know why they couldn't talk about this from the start. Maybe it does have something to do with competition, not wanting to give competition a heads up with what flickr/yahoo was up against.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Jim Skea says:

Thanks, Stewart!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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brendadada says:

hogdump of a mess

Most poetically accurate description I've seen of Flickr in months.

Null-response via Report Abuse, and a Help system in tatters. And when Y! photos arrives?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
brendadada edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Jaboney says:

That's it? THAT'S IT?! After a week, the best you can come up with is a solution that should have been obvious and could have been implemented after 5 minutes?

LOL!!!

Wow. Colossal incompetence. Absolutely amazing.

Anyone looking to start a Web 2.0 business, save and print that 5,000 post thread, and wallpaper the offices of your PR and legal departments with it.

A long, long time ago...
I can still remember
How those photos used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those people dance
And, maybe, they’d be happy for a while.

But filters made me shiver
With every page I’d quiver.
Bad news on the web;
I couldn’t take one more step.

I can’t remember if I cried
When I read about his overriding pride,
But something touched me deep inside
The day the flickr died.

Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

nothing is bad about it.

the problem is the very high standards, and that yahoo did not plan for this and delay launch.

obviously "what we have here is a failure to communicate."

flickr is a victim, and as a result, so is the german subscriber base.

but i am not pleased at all with the lack of informational updates.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

George says:

The Searcher:

"So if Germany is unable to see "restricted" content, does that mean that they are then also unable to upload "restricted" content?"

No. Everyone can publish content into all of the 3 (public) safety levels.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

> Thanks, Stewart!

i hope you were joking
now i'm allowed to see content some anonymous rotter declares "moderate". oh i'm so fucking grateful now...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Javier Díaz Photographie says:

@Stewart

What needs clarification is why Yahoo Inc. and Flickr took this action.

Have they been served any injunction, summons or cease and desist order by German Courts or German administrative authorities invoking said Jugendmedien-Staatsvertrag JMStV?

Because if they haven't - which is what I and many more here believe - this Company has acted unfoundedly and has unnecessarily inflicted damage upon its German customers, not to say needlessly harming its corporate image.

I, and many here too, deeply believe Flickr and parent company Yahoo Inc. have acted recklessly, without regard whatsoever for its German clients and worse, in direct violation of article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 which guarantees the following:

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.


In creating a false legal conflict between Flickr users, Flickr content and a German Law that no authority in Germany was dreaming of enforcing, you have violated a fundamental people's universal right.

I believe the Flickr Community deserves a much more thorough explanation than the platitudes you have posted today.

Best,
Javier Díaz
Attorney at Law
Santiago - CHILE
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

> flickr is a victim

boohooohoohooooo
waaaahhahhh booohoooohooooo
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Brisbane, yes, I agree, and mentioned up there around post #2. The speculation will continue without some detailed reasoning from Flickr's side.

Rippie: see that up there? That's what I'm talking about. Up until now, the "definitions" of what should be in which filter were subjective and vague, which while causing some mild anguish around here, never meant the life or death of a photo. Now that one whole filter choice is actually "restricted" and hidden from entire countries, a vague subjective definition ain't gonna do. People will demand specificity, which is impossible, in all situations. But much more is on the line now than before with the choice. and I think that's going to put an untenable strain on the filter system.

Or this blows over in a day or two. wonder how likely that is?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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David Giral | davidgiralphoto.com says:

Well, Flickr is gradually losing its last bit of soul to become just a moneymaking machine!
The fact that staff has photos and icons representing them does not make it more "human".
Anyway, Yahoo! does not care about human rights ....
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
David Giral | davidgiralphoto.com edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Multitude says:

@Rippie

>in doing that, so...

...so actually it doesn´t suck to be German, it is quite the converse: To be German is a cool thing. Our laws don´t prohibit adults to see whatever they want, and at the same time protect minors from unfitting content. (something most America Porn Site lack, by the way). :-)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

jaboney: i could not agree more.

i appreciate that stewart hoped for lofty solutions, but the very least that could have been done is the current fix.

a week ago.

it's not good enough. it's not fair, and it's not respectful.

this has not transpired in an open and frank manner.

there are many many MANY people upset over this, and they aren't all german!

what does this portend for those in other nations where people are less bold to stand up for themselves???

this is most disturbing.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Mathieu Bertrand Struck says:

The Searcher: I really don´t think that "Yahoo lawyers' kung-fu is supposedly better". I just would like to know what are the "very high standards set by German law". Flickr staff must specify those standards if they still want out trust as consumers.

I just think all this mess began with corporate paranoia and was executed without any sense of transparency with the community of users.

I´m still very disappointed.

[edit: some typos]
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

multi: yes! i agree... it just sucks to be german on flickr!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Wolfwhispers says:

*
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Wolfwhispers edited this topic 83 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

Javier: the "media" that article is referring to is the Internet, not a commercial web site that can make its own rules and terms. You are free to express yourself online, go make a web page and have at it. But if you sign up for a blog or photo page or whatever, you should read the fine print. It's not a public square, it's a private business. And they can clip your wings in many many ways with legal impunity.

Tho, as seen here, not without other consequences, often more severe.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

> very high standards set by German law

i think it's rather the very low standards set by corporate evil yahoo woohoo flickr when it comes to censorship and glasnost (-> see shareholder's vote, china policy and all)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
fandorinmusic edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Multitude says:

>"very high standards set by German law"

There are NO such laws of "very high standards". Making a Website for adult content would take me 2 mouse clicks and 30 Euro a month (paying my host). That´s it.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

> fandorinmusic, your racial slurs our outa line.

:D

you might consider turning on your content filter
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

heather says:

I just want to step in with a public service announcement:

I think we can all agree that the previous topic on this issue became unecessarily ugly and in some instances quite personally abusive towards the team.

While we're happy to entertain discussion within the forum, we're going to take a much harder line in this and other topics, removing posts that are bashy and ranty either towards fellow members of the community or the team itself.

Thanks for your consideration.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
heather (staff) edited this topic 83 months ago.

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The Searcher says:

Multitude: still waiting for an example web site that has adult content in Germany and doesn't require an age check. Would go a long way to bolster the arm-chair lawyering on this side (and I mean that in all seriousness. Without a decent explanation from Flickr's side, it's all "my law people say this, and his law people say that", with no hard facts from either side.)

fandorinmusic: yah it's going to be a cryfest when you're gone.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
The Searcher edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Noizze Replikk says:

Not a single word about Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, huh?!
Which part of Korea is meant anyway? South, north, both?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Wolfwhispers says:

it's like that eh?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Mathieu Bertrand Struck says:

what????
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

hey, fando, that's pretty unreasonable commentary.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

schwarzableich: not forgotten.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

schwarzabgleich: there is no internet in North Korea. So that narrows it down.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Proggie says:

The searcher: i dont' think the content is in germany though. I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) all of flickr's servers are in the US.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Multitude says:

@The Searcher

You may not have noticed, but all (or most) german users said for the beginning that a AGE VERFICATION is the only possible solution for flickr.

Don´t know why you have problems understanding that. It´s easy: We in Germany love freedom AND love protecting our minors. Where do you see a problem in that?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Multitude edited this topic 83 months ago.

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fandorinmusic says:

> fandorinmusic: yah it's going to be a cryfest when you're gone.

i know, at least among the people that matter to me :)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

heather: please... there are tens of thousands of very anxious (downplay term) people looking for real answers.

this is a pretty lame compromise as announced.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

proggie: no.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fandorinmusic says:

it's a really lame compromise, that's true. actually, i just want my flickr to be what it was 14 days ago. nothing more.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Mathieu Bertrand Struck says:

heather: can you give concrete examples of "personally abusive acts towards the team" on the locked thread?

I tought the topic was about "personally abusive acts towards the consumers".

edit: even if i´m not a 'pro' user, i´m still a consumer. i gave you my pageviews, my API content, etc.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Mathieu Bertrand Struck edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Proggie says:

so there are flickr servers in every country? Cache servers?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

mutli: you and i may need to rent a room soon.

this is a MAJOR part of the problem, and without fixing this, the rest is not important.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

fando, that's what you should say. keep it civil. we all want the same thing!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Multitude says:

@Rippie

All she said something like "guys, the war is over. We will not do any more loosening of the German filter settings. so live with it or get banned."

At least that´s what i read into it...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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The Searcher says:

Multitude: yes but the loud shouts of "german laws don't require this" seem to have lumped that in. I recant if Germans agree Flickr needs an age verification to comply with German Law. Just seemed that was getting shouted down as well. you are correct sir.

I honestly thought (my side bed with loupiote) that this time was being taken so Flickr could hastily implement some sort of age check for Germany, even if it were some 3rd party site.

Apparently it isn't so easy to cobble something together.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kiff ta race / under censure says:

Stewart locked the thread flickr now censoring all moderate and restricted photos from Germany and redirected it to the official thread [Official Topic] German SafeSearch settings

i am not suspicious but, if there is no annoucement on the blog or news, the word "censorship" will disaspear in few days...

hope you can understand my nasty-english
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

This thread was closed automatically due to a lack of responses over the last month.

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