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[locked, redirected] flickr now censoring all moderate and restricted photos from Germany

myfear says:

Follow up for the discussion started in
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/35971/page6/

You are welcome to say anything about this.

(edit: link not working)

-------------------

Official fresh start (a new topic)

Older updates from staff:
fifth · fourth · third · second · first
Posted at 11:29PM, 12 June 2007 PDT ( permalink )
George (staff) edited this topic ages ago.

1 2 ... 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 ... 49 50
(3801 to 3900 of 4,960 replies in [locked, redirected] flickr now censoring all moderate and restricted photos from Germany)
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Scy83 says:

I'm just reading about YouTube now being international as well. But the folks at Google did it right, in contrast to the Yahoo guys: There's no German YouTube yet, because the legal stuff (in this case, music copyright collective things) are not yet worked out.

I guess that makes it 1:0 Google vs. Yahoo. If we take the satellite photos for maps into the calculation, it's already 5:0. ;)

Lola:
It means that while I was writing a reply, page 39 was created because other people were writing replies. When I clicked "preview", I saw page 38, but not my comment, because it was supposedly hiding on page 39. Hard to understand when you haven't experienced it yourself. Just don't think about it, it wasn't directed at you and I don't want to confuse neither of you three.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 PRO says:

@Ricardo: Well written, well thought-out, and indeed I guess you are right. The only thing I hope is that actually Flickr Staff still does care about keeping its "old"(...) community alive. Given they could, being properly marketed as "Yahoo! Photo powered by Flickr", easily attract quite a lot of paying customers which possibly are easier to please and/or don't care about an "old" community they never knew anyhow, I really hope they will come to a "good" decision. I do not like to "run away" either...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

@Stewart: thanks for the edit of the top posting.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

@Rick: many interesting points!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Riccardo Mori

i'm not gonna delete my photos from flickr, but there are some sets of photos that i want everyone to see (i mean, everyone, including people who don't have a flickr account).

now, if those are photos that flickr required to be flagged "moderate" or "restricted", this is not possible. those photos have very little exposure because people outside of flickr can't see them anymore, and flickr members are generally prevented to see them too, because the default SafeSearch filter setting is "ON". of course, you must add to that the blocking for germany and 3 other coutries.

since flickr went this way, i have lost a lot of exposure for those photos, which originally were hosted on a server i control. i went to flickr because of the community side of it. but still, having my photos PUBLIC on the web is the most important. so i will copy a number of photos to ipernity.com because there, they will be visible by all, and since it's a flickr clone, it is not a bad alternative.

and in my flickr sets, will redirect people who cannot see those photos to this other site where nothing is blocked, filtered or censored.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Yves. says:

[self-censored/revised] (maybe my idea/feeling was ridiculous)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Yves. edited this topic ages ago.

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Lars Pohlmann says:

@steward:
sometimes there's a trade off between talking about it and doing it
[...]
let me say that it is not as simple as it looks from the outside


catch22
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Lars Pohlmann edited this topic ages ago.

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Lola Lyndon: Stone Cold Fox! says:


Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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mdavidford says:

To add to Riccardo's analysis, there's another problem. Either a few people leave and find themselves with an inferior community (because most are still here) and inferior service (because the take-up isn't high enough to drive and support the development), or substantial numbers of people leave and recreate the Flickr community on site x, making that the premier site instead. But then what?

It's naive to believe that site x, with it's new-found status, won't start attracting attention from the corporate world. Eventually, it will get bought out. And then the new owners will want to grow and expand it. And they'll hit a whole load of 'growing pains' of their own.

Isn't it better to stick with Flickr, which has had its nose bloodied by this and will likely think a bit more carefully about things in the future? Otherwise, it will end up with a constant chase from one platform to the next, and that's no good for anyone.

[This is, of course, provided that the final resolution to the current issue is a satisfactory one]
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
mdavidford edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

i have another reason to copy my "un-safe" photos on flickr.com/help/forum/42597/page38/#reply237658:

it's a french company :) and there is nothing wrong for europeans to support a european business! - even if it is a shameless flickr clone.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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rim light says:

Flickr is boring
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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silly addition says:

I agree with you Riccardo and I really hope that they learned their lessons.

But I've learned mine as well: I will never again pay for two years of membership at once.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Multitude says:

Could you please stop saying "Thank you Stewart, Thank you Stewart Thank you Stewart..."

All he said was that something will be said in 24 hours. That´s all. No information, no details, no nothing. Just a "wait 24 hours".
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 PRO says:

@Multitude: Yes, in the light of facts, there is no new information nor details in this post. But at least it's communication, it's way better than the silence the last few days. Plus it puts a likely end to waiting, as he possibly wouldn't throw in a deadline without being at least decently sure to be able to get something done in that time.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

@Multitude: no, he said more than that. Some reasons to thank Stewart:

1. There was a statement at all.

2. Flickr still is trying to find a solution, not tyring to sit it out.

3. There is (for the first time) a specific time window for a solution (whatever that may be).

4. He explained a bit about the silence.

5. He acknowledged some errors.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson PRO says:

since you mentioned it...

I've been seeing a lot about ipernity the last few days, but I wonder how everyone interprets this section of their 'guidelines':

# Always strive to preserve the children
Keep in mind that children also belongs to ipernity's community as simple users or members. Prohibit yourself from giving a public access to any content disrespectful of the protection of the children.
How do you relate that to Flickr's guidelines that say
Don’t forget the children.
Take the opportunity to filter your content responsibly. If you would hesitate to show your photos to a child, your mum, or Uncle Bob, that means it needs to be filtered. So, ask yourself that question as you upload your photos and moderate accordingly
To me, they say the same thing. Or do you figure that since Flickr is essentially a US site, and ipernity is a French site, that "protect the children" means different things? Why should I, as a New Zealander, interpret those 2 statements differently? To me, they both require the same level of "moderation", which in Flickr means setting a photo as "moderate" and in Ipernity, setting it as "private/friends/family".
Just curious.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Thomas Frejek PRO says:

@Stewart:
Is this the result after you fired your CEO :-))

...sounds good - finally
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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probek says:

Scyt**e: Same here. I was just writing a post linking to decent articles about flickr-alternatives here (in german, by a popular blogger) or here (in english, a short listing comparing flickr and others) when ***BAM!*** Stewart appeared and my preview-sight was gone (and my post, too - *always remember to backup your writings in clipboard*). So next time we want a reaction, just point to the competitors. Lesson learned. But good to hear at least someting, Stewart.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Brenda

Or do you figure that since Flickr is essentially a US site, and ipernity is a French site, that "protect the children" means different things?

yes, definitely!

in europe, nudity is NOT a problem, and dead dogs are OK for public view, as far as i know.

pornography is probably not OK, but i don't have any porn photos so it's not a problem for me.

so the words might be the same, but the interpretation is very different in europe.

i'd be very surprised if my "moderate" photos are censored on ipernity (since it is harmless nudity, the kind allowed in public in europe). regarding the more contentious "dog-meat" photos, we'll see if they cause any problem there. if they do, i'll put them on a server that i control entirely.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Scyt**e

BTW, ipernity.com now has "pro" accounts similar to flickr pro, too. about 24 euro/year.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Riccardo Mori PRO says:

loupiote – I understand your position. And surely, at the moment, for a non-flickr member (and for a flickr member suffering from flickr's current disservice) it's easier to watch your (great) photos on ipernity. When it comes to feedback, though, one has to sign up and create an ipernity account. Not a really big deal, I know, but if someone has no interest in joining ipernity, the alternatives are either dropping you an email, or writing a comment in your flickr pages where possible (something like "Hey, I saw that photo on your other site and I love it", etc.).

One can say it's a very good way to filter feedback. That is: those who finally send you comments and message indeed like your photography and have bothered to let you know. If many of my photographs portrayed subjects and scenes that the TOS of a free/cheap photo-sharing service deemed objectionable or not suitable for the casual visitor, I would consider setting up my own website and photoblog with a general warning about the content and a comment system more friendly for the web-passers-by (the all too familiar "your name / your email (won't be published) / your comment" form).

I'm definitely rambling! But let me emphasise the fact that I respect your position and choices on the matter, ça va sans dire :)

Rick
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

When it comes to feedback, though, one has to sign up and create an ipernity account.

it's free, can be done in about 2 min, and does NOT require a yahoo-ID!

If many of my photographs portrayed subjects and scenes that the TOS of a free/cheap photo-sharing service deemed objectionable or not suitable for the casual visitor, I would consider setting up my own website and photoblog with a general warning about the content and a comment system more friendly for the web-passers-by

and you'll end up getting lots of spam.

that's often a problem if you allow anyone to comment, with no login.

anyway, i looked at a couple of other flickr alternatives, and www.ipernity.com seems to be the best, because it's a flickr close (i.e. works the same, no learning curve. even has an uploader and an organizer). and the free service has limitation that i can live with. maybe i'll even become ipernity pro some day!

also, ipernity has stuff missing from flickr, like a blog, slideshow with music, etc. they probably read the FlickrIdea forum, since they implemented a number a suggestions that were done there, but ignored by flickr.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Frabi65 PRO says:

@ric

a) look for a viable alternative;

All I saw from inpernity until now is perfectly the same look and feel like flickr. They announced the group feature and have some nice features already which flickr doesn't have.

I was comfortable with their interface after only a few minutes, it felt completly like flickr.

b) delete his/her photos from flickr;

I have still another 2 years pro account so I have to delete nothing and much time to copy my pictures to ipernity.

c) upload his/her photos (maybe hundreds of photos) to another website;

look at b) I have much time for it

d) inform his/her contacts on flickr about his/her leaving;

for sure but it's no a big thing I havn't many contacts

e) keep into consideration that not all his/her contacts are German –

thats right too, but my contacts which are really interested can open a free ipernity account, addional to their flickr account. Otherwise I found a lot of new contacts which didn't notice me at Flickr before the censorship thing. In the discussion group I found new friends which are already added me as contact at ipernity.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Scy83 says:

Riccardo Mori:
I'm not only leaving in order to show protest, I'm leaving because I can't imagine at all that this will be the last annoyance Flickr does to me. If not now, then when?

Of course it's a lot of work, of course it's inconvenient because of losing a lot of friends and work I have put into my Flickr photos. But it's the only right thing to do in order to re-achieve my data's freedom, and mine. The web is not planned to be centralized, and this is a situation where this fact shows so much it hurts your eyes. I've always been not convinced over the whole Web 2.0 blurb, and events like the Flickr censorship confirms my opinion: Web 2.0 is not about bringing people together or creating communities or making the world a better place. It's about making huge profits out of peer pressure. And that's the attitude that shows in every action Flickr made since the acquisition by Yahoo. And even if it's gonna be a considerable amount of work, I think it's one's duty to say a loud "fuck you" against that attitude. I'm idealistic enough to do that, some of my contacts who were protesting against the censorship three days ago are now back at posting regularly to 365 Days. That's poor, but it shows how much addiction to Flickr there is. I'm not addicted, I'm free to leave. And I will have great fun in enjoying that freedom.

You say that Flickr might offer some kind of "gift" for the censored users. I bet they won't. They have not reacted at all when me and others demanded a refund. They have not presented "gifts" ever, even for things like the Old School merge or whatever. It's just not corporate philosophy, although it might have been while Flickr still was Ludicorp. But it seems that the attitude of the people behind Flickr has changed over time as well. For example, I can't understand how Stewart is still able to sleep well at night. Or isn't he realizing how his baby Flickr is rotting, transforming slowly from a shiny example of the power of the internet to another flea-infested cash cow in Yahoo's stable? Well, maybe enough money can buy the souls of some people.

I'm tired of "being patient", as you're suggesting. Flickr did a lot of annoying stuff in the last months, they aren't reacting to my bug reports, they aren't reacting to my feature suggestions and now they're discriminating my country and treating me like a child. This might sound egocentric, but I am in that case: Because it's me who's paying for my account. If I'm not the target market of Flickr, and if that's the reason why they're treating me like shit, then it seems as if I should be leaving instead of trying to convince them to broaden their target market. That's what I'm doing.

Yes, Flickr is the best photo sharing service that's out there. And it's completely unclear if all the other "alternatives" will not be adopting censorship in the near future. That's why I won't migrate to them either. I'll host my images myself. I've got my own web server, I've got the technical expertise to set up a gallery, and I'm loving my freedom too much to throw my work into the throat of the next global player who gives a shit about me. Using your own gallery works quite fine for sharing things with your family and friends, and if I need recognition of artistic photos from others, then I'll put these photos (and just these) into some community that seems least evil.

This incident has not taught Flickr a lesson. If it did, they wouldn't have removed the protest photos from Explore, for example. They will continue to become the "bad guys" more and more, and I'm jumping off right here before contributing even more to their revenue.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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zettpress says:

I always get suspicious when people start to massively promote a specific company out of the blue, for reasons not obvious to me. (Or, as in some cases, for very obvious reasons.)

OK, there are companies X and Y and Z. They are operating in different locations and have a different feature set. They are different. There even was/is a thread with Flickr alternatives, so I'd suggest to stick with THIS thread for general comments to the censorship, and go to the other thread to discuss alternatives.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
zettpress edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Frabi65

yep, a agree with all you said.

the fact that ipernity.com is a shameless flickr clone makes it very easy to migrate. it took me one hour to migrate this flickr set to www.ipernity.com/doc/loupiote/album/14445.

it would be FANTASTIC if ipernity could provide an automatic tool to do the migration from flickr :)

and NO, i don't work for them. and i did not hear from them until someone mentioned them in THIS THREAD, because of the german censorship issue.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Rippie: Contra Censura! PRO says:

@Stewart: thank you, exactly as i thought! go get 'em!

@BrendaAnderson: funny. i noticed that yesterday. that is the right question. ultimately, i think every photoshare has to face the same set of problems, one way or another, and the members, the same decision, in an open app.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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zettpress says:

Scyt**e: excellent post. 100% agree.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

I always get suspicious when people start to massively promote a specific company our of the blue, for reasons not obvious to me. (Or, as in some cases, for very obvious reasons.)

the main reason i picked that company is that they are a SHAMELESS FLICKR CLONE. so they work just about the same way in almost every regard (except censorship / filtering!). this makes the transfer quite plainless.

is that a good enough reason?

oh, yeah, and they are french.... which is nice.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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zettpress says:

> oh, yeah, and they are french.... which is nice

That certainly is one hell of a reason to not go there. ;-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

well then you can pick another one from this list:

holocore.com/?PictureSync_services
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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teotwawki says:

his baby Flickr is rotting, transforming slowly from a shiny example of the power of the internet to another flea-infested cash cow in Yahoo's stable? Well, maybe enough money can buy the souls of some people.

The record of Yahoo! isn't all that bad. Geocities went from strength to strength after they bought it and broadcast.com (cost to Yahoo: $5 billion) gets so many more visitors than YouTube.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Scy83 says:

totwawki: It took me a minute to actually find out that your whole post is plain irony, but then I had a good laugh about it. Thanks!
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probek says:

teotwawki: that was mean.
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Lola Lyndon: Stone Cold Fox! says:


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tillwe PRO says:

An interesting point in Ricks comment and the follow-up debate is the notion that "s/he can just open up an additional (whatever) account" if s/he want's to stay in contact. I guess here we have a principal problem with privately owned communities -- what would be great would a kind of meta-infrastructur (i.e. some open standards), so that I can form a contact network/community that is not limited by my choice of infrastructure provider, e.g. some people now move to iperny, others to, say, Google Picasa or some Apple photosharing software, or whatever. Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to integrate contact lists over platforms, presented in the look'n'feel of my favorite platform?

((Edit: Scyt**e called the phenomenon I talk about "making huge profits out of peer pressure" -- that's one way to see it; the other way would be to look for (still profit-able) solutions to that.))
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
tillwe edited this topic ages ago.

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silly addition says:

tillwe, dream on! ;)
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Lars Pohlmann says:

@tillwe: that wouldn't be in the interest of any company. sure, web2.0-sites integrate services from other companies, but never from the ones they are directly competing with.
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tillwe PRO says:

@malanalars: of course, but I have to buy a Microsoft PC to run Microsoft Windows with Microsoft Word, and if I want to use Apple Word, I have to buy an Apple PC running MacOS (do I?)... and my internet service provider only caters to Google-affine content providers (do they?). I guess there would be a way to make profits in a meta-standard world, too.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
tillwe edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

web2.0-sites integrate services from other companies, but never from the ones they are directly competing with.

unless it helps them competing.

e.g. if another photo sharing site integrate a service to download flickr photos and copy into their service, that would be good for them, so they would do it.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 PRO says:

@tillwe
Google Picasa or some Apple photosharing software, or whatever. Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to integrate contact lists over platforms, presented in the look'n'feel of my favorite platform?

Yes. But I think it's not likely to be around anytime soon. Perhaps something like this really can just be achieved in a purely community-driven environment lacking "commercial" interests, which, by then, unfortunately is also likely to lack commercial backing and is likely to run out of funds, infrastructure, technology rather soon.

The other option however: There is a way to do so. Host your own image gallery. Ask your friends to do the same. Watch what they do using RSS. Comment using your favorite browser or some sort of online content syndication tool. It works. It's more difficult than Flickr and its competitors, but it works.
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arnd Dewald PRO says:

Hi Sewart, I'm also 'working on a solution':
www.ipernity.com/home/14886
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tillwe PRO says:

@kawazu: but even for the RSS/own image gallery scenario -- would some streamlined tool that generates this integration something great?
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heartbreaking wing says:

I really admire the people who had the energy to keep this thread alive.
Personally I don’t think any action or statement from Flickr can turn this wrong into a right. So yes - I also moved to that other place.

Being at Flickr just isn’t fun anymore. The bad feeling after the _rebekka disaster didn’t even have a chance to fade away.
And no, the grass isn’t always greener elsewhere. But it’s nice to move into a new home, to open the windows and let some fresh air come in. And I was really amazed to see how many people did the same thing. Not just the “rebellious” ones, also some very good photographers who never comment in these threads. Quality wise Flickr certainly is going to miss them.

No doubt - Flickr will survive. Most happy snapshooters who just don’t care will stay or come over from Yahoo Photos.

Well, have fun. Just don’t fall asleep.
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kr428 PRO says:

@tillwe: There are online RSS feed readers out there that work pretty well... or do I miss the point? How far would you like integration to go here?
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Riccardo Mori PRO says:

Scyt**e – You make good, understandable, agreeable points. Regarding the loud "fuck you"... yes, it's really one's duty to yell that. At the same time I'm reminded of that zen riddle, you know, "a tree falls in the forest; no one hears it; did the tree make a noise?", and I fear nowadays the Internet is so generally messed up that the only true "fuck you" would be to disconnect en masse, but it's obviously a more than idealistic wish.

You speak of freedom, and I'm absolutely with you on that. However I think that on the Web that word disappeared around 1994. Now the closest concept of freedom on the Web is "best compromise". For me personally, the current best compromise to showcase my modest photographic efforts remains flickr. And not because I'm not affected by the current incident, but simply because it's cheap, handy and has been useful for my purposes. I cannot afford a personal server nor a decent storage service. I can't code and I don't want to tinker with movable type, wordpress, or whatever tools available to create a customised website. So flickr is my "best compromise" and for 19 Euro per year I can be somewhat tolerant as regards to temporary outages and disservices. When I was living in Italy, my ISP left me without connection for 20 days without explanation: since I work using the Internet, that was a serious, contract-breaking damage and considering I was paying the service 100 Euro per month, I obviously took action for the damage suffered.

Anyway, forgive my ramblings. I understand your disappointment and frustration, and I sincerely wish you the best for your new solo enterprise.

Rick

[Edited to fix damned typos. Grr.]
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Riccardo Mori edited this topic ages ago.

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kr428 PRO says:

@Robert_K: Just out of curiosity: How often do you intend to move, given that these things might repeat anywhere else once a platform is big enough? Perhaps you should consider making your own home then... ;)
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chemical steel says:

Riccardo Mori

Hi Riccardo, you make some good points in your post.

4. At the moment other alternatives might look appealing because apparently there's not "censorship" involved... Is that really enough to leave?

If Yahoo! Mail (or Gmail or ...) would filter emails from certain friends, would it be a reason for you to leave or not?

Don't get me wrong: I'm an idealist and I act on principles as often as I can. But considering the present matter more pragmatically: [...]

It's personal preference, of course.

For me (and obviously some other users, too), censorship is one of the things in life were pragmatism is an incorrect reaction. Do you (a general "you") think that pragmatism is a good approach to a topic like "human rights"?

I simply cannot give my money to a company which is doing that. I don't force anyone to agree with me, though. :-)


A general comment regarding the discussion about "Flickr alternatives": I don't know what your problem is - be glad that there are alternatives, no matter how good or borken they are. Flickr isn't a monopoly, so even if you don't have freedom of speech on our photo platform here, you still have your freedom to choose. A lot of people in the world don't even have this freedom.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
chemical steel edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

i don't think i would have crossed the line and uploaded some photos to a flickr clone if flickr hadn't screwed up that much with the german censorship.

so thanks helping me doing the move, flickr.

and healthy competition is certainely good for you, especially in those areas where you have a censorship problem.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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fortunate snail says:

Thanks Stewart.

A little off topic, but I did laugh my ass off at this, reported by the Code Project Insider:

Yahoo boss steps down from post
Another Yahoo now in charge.

Terry Semel quits as the chief executive of internet search firm Yahoo and is replaced by co-founder Jerry Yang.

Original source: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6765893.stm

[edit dork spelling]
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Censored by Yahoo says:

Multitude wrote:

Could you please stop saying "Thank you Stewart, Thank you Stewart Thank you Stewart..."

All he said was that something will be said in 24 hours. That´s all. No information, no details, no nothing. Just a "wait 24 hours".


You are right! Thank you!
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tillwe PRO says:

@kawazu: I was thinking about some kind of RSS-aggregator for images and image-related comments. And some kind of contact-of-my-contacts-function.
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tillwe PRO says:

And some techincal question to the ipernity converts (that site looks cool on the first glance, I agree) -- how is their hot-linking policy? One thing I really like about flickr (and which now can also be seen as a kind of addiction) is their hot-linking policy, making it really easy to integrate flickr content into blogs etc.
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tillwe edited this topic ages ago.

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DatsEvolution says:

Well with this topic at 39 pages please pardon me for not reading the whole thing.

I am NOT a german citizen, bit I DO live in Germany.

Can someone provide me short version of whats going on and how it will affect me?
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silly addition says:

Michael G. Noll [Flickr CENSORED] Pro User says: "I simply cannot give my money to a company which is doing that."

why is then "pro" stnading behind your user name, Yahoo! is conspirating with china for longer than a year. (If I recall it correctly.)
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silly addition edited this topic ages ago.

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urbanistiques says:

I went down to the archive and found this about two years old news report:

What Yang envies is the community of 1.5 million rabidly loyal users Flickr has cultivated and the vast amount of content they've created. Of the 60 million photos uploaded to the site so far, more than 80 percent are public, meaning that anyone can look at them. More than half have been "tagged" with user-created labels, making them searchable. To use Flickr is to belong to the culture of participation sweeping the Web--where you write your own blog, produce your own podcast, and post your personal photos for all to see. If this is where the Web is going, Yang wants to make sure Yahoo gets there first.

Good Luck Jerry!
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

how is there hot-linking policy

i don't know if they have written that part of their TOS yet :)
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tillwe PRO says:

@DatsEvolution: if you use a Yahoo.de-based account, at the moment all photos marked "moderate" or "restricted" are not visible to you (not even as placeholders). You can't turn that safe-filter off at the moment.
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teotwawki says:

and healthy competition is certainely good for you, especially in those areas where you have a censorship problem.

It's been pointed out before that at the same time as contributors are leaving flickr for services that aren't making these kinds of mistakes repeatedly, flickr is bribing with free pro accounts and pumping in, automatically, thousands and thousands of Yahoo! photos users who have no interest in anything but using the site as an image dump. It is, in community terms, asset stripping. (If you doubt me on this then check the Yahoo! photos threads in the forum for the claims of disinterest in the social aspects of flickr and the disinterest in metadata, for example)
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Riccardo Mori PRO says:

Oh, and by the way. I looked at ipernity, it's really a clone. Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but is blatantly ripping another site/service's structure legally permitted? Isn't that a copyright infringement or something? What if Yahoo! filed a lawsuit about that?
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kr428 PRO says:

@tillwe: As for the first thing, I think it depends upon whether or not the gallery software in use does offer this sort of feature. My current pixelpost installation so far does this at least for pictures, haven't yet bothered figuring out whether something like this works for comments.

For the other thing: This is hard to do so far, there we're possibly talking "semantic web". Or, _much_ easier, your contact (same as you do) maintains a blog/gallery roll which also is exportable using RSS. Then you could get some interesting things done. But I think basically most of the technology is around, already...
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tillwe PRO says:

@Riccardo: to me it looks like a clone+, e.g. guestbooks, blogs, other media types. But I wondered about your last question, too.
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tillwe PRO says:

@kawazu: I know that this is technically feasible, but what is missing are common tools and standards. And a "commerically feasible" way to do this (the big bonus of Flickr etc. vs hosting yourself is the instant attention of million flickr users, or at least the handful of active people in the groups you post to, the contacts of contacts. This seems to me something that is only possible with the help of (a) wide-spread "open standards" (whatever that means in this case in detail), (b) a commercial enterprise that sees some way to turn this into profit, or (c) a non-profit organisation that finds some way to maintain this).
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urbanistiques says:

Another even sweeter quotation from the 2005 article:

Clearly, though, there's a limit to how fast Yahoo can absorb all this radical change. Butterfield compares the company to a centipede: "You can take a few feet off the ground and change a few things, but you cannot take all the feet off the ground at the same time." Still, with the support of Semel and the passion of true believers like Schneider, the Flickrization of Yahoo is proceeding at a startling pace. What the company looks like in the future will depend entirely on how many users show up for the party. ...
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

Oh, and by the way. I looked at ipernity, it's really a clone. Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but is blatantly ripping another site/service's structure legally permitted?

it is certainely a shameless flickr clone, but they do have some nice features missing from flickr.

if flickr can prove that they invented something that got ripped-off, if they have pattents or proofs and anteriority, they may get something by suing them, but is it worth for flickr to do that, that's the question. and it's not that easy to sue companies in other countries.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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jfvo PRO says:

Brenda Anderson .... loupiote forgot that Kiwi and French are not friends ...
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DatsEvolution says:

Tillwe, thanks for the reply.
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tillwe PRO says:

@kawazu: maybe what I have in mind is more something like pingback/trackback than RSS.
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heartbreaking wing says:

kawazu@z428 "Just out of curiosity: How often do you intend to move, given that these things might repeat anywhere else once a platform is big enough? Perhaps you should consider making your own home then... ;)"

At this moment the main reason for moving is not wanting to stay at Flickr. And Ipernity has some nice x-tra stuff [customization of your front page and a blog option and cool ass little slide show on your page].

I also like the fact that you are not spoken to as an 7 year old. No bullshit like "Flickr loves you" or "Take me to the kittens" or "Would you show this picture to you mom or Uncle Bob."

www.ipernity.com/home/robert_k
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tillwe PRO says:

@urbanistique: "Flickrization of Yahoo" -- seems like something went the wrong way round.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

www.ipernity.com/home/loupiote
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kr428 PRO says:

@tillwe: I don't really think it's about missing standards... I rather think it's about a missing "killer application" to put them all together in a homogenous, meaningful way, easy enough to be used by everyday users who care about technical details of networks as much as I do care about technical details of my car. ;)
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tillwe PRO says:

@kawazu: I guess you're right. But I don' want this "killer app" coming from MS, Y or G etc.
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Lola Lyndon: Stone Cold Fox! says:

I just adore splashing around in this bubbling brainpan of info-matic esotericism!
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kr428 PRO says:

@robert_k: Consider me someone who always already had a look at ipernity (www.ipernity.com/home/kawazu), but yet I think and hope trying to change anything for the better around here would be better than just "running away" hoping it will stay better elsewhere. Came here from fotolog.net when it became fotolog.com and was taken over by teenage girls putting up 1000+ "glamorous" self portraits of themselves. Just don't want to leave again... ;)
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Lars Pohlmann says:

@kwazu: btw. now that some many people are moving over from yahoo!photo it will be quite interesting to follow the impact on explore...
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kr428 PRO says:

@tillwe: Yes. A "peer-to-peer" image hosting / sharing / community software... similar to KoffeePhoto perhaps... this would be a good thing :)

@malanalars: indeed... that's what I was curious about, as well... that's why I so far I am in doubt what reasons Flickr Staff does have risking all their "inspired" photographers leave in such a way...
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kr428 edited this topic ages ago.

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chemical steel says:

@greynine
Good question! ;-)

why is then "pro" stnading behind your user name, Yahoo! is conspirating with china for longer than a year. (If I recall it correctly.)

First, I've been a Flickr user for a long time before I finally got a Pro account. Even before they got bought by Yahoo. Actually, I didn't know about the acquisition deal for quite some time (IIRC it was in 2006 when I became aware of it).

Second, the Pro account itself or rather its payment was a gift (though paid with my credit card because the "gifter" didn't have one of her own; as has been said in this thread, credit cards are not that common in Germany).

Third and maybe most importantly, as you can read on my blog, my research work requires me to use services like Flickr, del.icio.us, Gmail, etc. I can't analyze or talk/write about something that I don't know. For example, I have enabled Google "Web History" feature when searching the web even though my personal opinion about it would restrict me from doing it. If this sounds like a cop-out, actually visit my blog and browse it for a while before deciding what you think. ;-)

To give a concrete example, one of the outcomes of my work (though this is actually a private project) is GooDiff which is a service for automated tracking of changes in web service policies like terms of use or privacy policies. EDIT/FYI: We have added the Flickr legal documents (TOS etc.) to GooDiff; they are being actively tracked for changes and modifications.


Having that said, I must also admit that so far I have seen a kind of a line between Flickr and Yahoo. Yes, Flickr got bought by Yahoo but it was still "Flickr" to me. If this point of view is enough for you to condemn me, then yes, I am guilty.


PS: Seems like I've just given more (personal) details in some minutes regarding a simple question than what we have seen from Flickr over the past days... :-P


EDIT: Fixed HTML links, doh! I was missing a "/". Thanks, tillwe.
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chemical steel edited this topic ages ago.

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tillwe PRO says:

@Michael -- interesting PhD topic and interesting posting (but the links here don't work because you need the http in front of it).
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Riccardo Mori PRO says:

Michael G. Noll – Hi Michael, nice to meet you here on the barricades ;)

You say: If Yahoo! Mail (or Gmail or ...) would filter emails from certain friends, would it be a reason for you to leave or not?

Ah, of course I'd leave - and I would directly go to a court, because that would be illegal. But the situation here looks slightly different to me. From the beginning I always struggled to call this incident an act of "censorship" in the traditional sense. Perhaps it's just me, but I always associated censorship with a figure of power (be it a single man or a kafkian unidentified secret committee) deciding to censor a book, an author, whatever and whoever, at his whim, acting out of political and/or personal reasons in a deliberate, malicious, oppressive way.

With flickr, I keep viewing this incident as an act of genuine clumsiness, a misunderstanding among the parties involved in the "decision rooms", an excess of precaution, etc., which resulted in a temporary blackout for Germany and other (two?) countries.

Although the current situation is indeed annoying, embarrassing for flickr/yahoo and ultimately inexcusable, I would point out that the key word here is "temporary". It's difficult for me to use the term censorship in association with such a short time interval, and I tend to view it as a terrible disservice with ethical ramifications. At the same time I perfectly understand that a German user might feel actually censored due to the current limitations.

OK, now I'm definitely lost in semantics :) – I hope I made some sense, though.

Rick
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dominikf says:

Something new in the "Spiegel" online newspaper here ...
Only german unfortunately.
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swisskiltbear PRO says:

www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,489273,00.html

This is the latest, in depth coverage in the online version of German News magazine "Der Spiegel". They call this "Lessons from a Web 2.0 disaster".

it's well worth reading for those of you speaking German, but unfortunately way too long to translate here.

I strongly suggest, Stewart, Heather and the Yahooligans responsible for this have someone translate this article for them, it's quite extensive, well researched and to the point.

Hopefully, the reporters and editors of Der Spiegel won't be dismissed as screaming loons like man of us members were.
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chemical steel says:

@Riccardo Mori

Great and nice reply, Riccardo. At least it made sense to me ;-)

I am actually positively surprised that even though lots of users are participating in this thread, the general way of communication is still mostly polite and friendly. I do my best to stick to that - it's hard to express something in typed words and in a foreign language what might be just the way you stress a word in a real discussion (and in your mother tongue).

That's why I make sure to include enough smilies :-)

Ah, of course I'd leave - and I would directly go to a court, because that would be illegal.

That's a good point. I am not sure whether there is much of legal difference between filtering photos and filtering emails (both of which are technically data that a user has created by herself). And what Flickr is doing at the moment is restricting the communication flow of said data between users. That's the similarity I've seen. But honestly, I don't know for sure, I'm not a lawyer.

However regarding the Yahoo! Mail example, I picked emails mainly for trying to illustrate that from a user's perspective, filtering photos on Flickr might be seen as bad as filtering emails/communication, regardless of what legalese says.

Although the current situation is indeed annoying, embarrassing for flickr/yahoo and ultimately inexcusable, I would point out that the key word here is "temporary".

That's completely true. However, my experience so far has shown that due to whatever circumstances (time restraints, budget, internal pressure, roadmap, competitor actions, ...), temporary and imprompty solutions are often there to stay forever.

While this is my personal speculation, I am convinced that Flickr would not have planned changing the "censorship" for the affected countries any time soon if the community outcry had not happened (the - sorry - hesitating, un-informative replies of Heather and Stewart seem to confirm this).
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chemical steel edited this topic ages ago.

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--ex Paris (now London) Steve-- says:

Brenda said:

I was questioning the statement that you had to pay using a US credit card if you had a US Yahoo ID for your Flickr acct.

To followup, to test this, I just added my NZ Visa card to my US Yahoo ID Wallet account... so I think this statement about needing a US credit card if you have a yahoo.com ID is not correct. There may be other limitations for some countries (I don't know) but as a blanket statement, it is incorrect.

Brenda, the way "international credit/debit cards work" is just weird...
Ive used my "maestro" debit card in most of Europe and N. America .. stick it in a ATM and money comes out...
On a recent trip to Oz I forgot my VISA (it sat by the computer after a booking)... lucky I had cash... because basically I couldn't use this maestro card anywhere in Australia...including going into banks and asking (and had I gone to NZ it might just have worked .. no restrictions)

When I book flights from Paris to the UK I often use easyjet...
If I select my location as France it automatically directs me to the French version and the French version refuses to even recognise my UK VISA .(does not exist). and if I do the opposite the UK version tells me my French visa doesn't exist...
There is basically no way to tell... what works seems totally random.... I would have thought for instance my UK card would have a higher chance of working in NZ or Australia than say Czech Republic or Estonia.. or HK ... and way to talk weird it worked in Vietnam...

My conclusion .... you can't guarantee anything like this... there is no reason it shouldn't work on the flight booking... it just doesn't... stuff like this needs actually TESTING...
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!Shot by Scott! says:

the German media giant Spiegel is paying a very close eye to the whole matter.

just for those of you who don't know Spiegel is a highly respected publication (magazine) and currant affairs program in Germany

www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,489273,00.html
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Вегитилл says:

ERFOLG ???

I'think Steward and the other staff are getting nervous... success...
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Ralf Stockmann says:

1) @Steward: thanks for the update. As for me, this next statement will make the decision whether I'll leave Flickr or nor.

2) Excellent summary of "DER SPIEGEL" why Flickr/Yahoo are in DEEP trouble: www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,489273,00.html

3) I very unhappy how the "I'm leaving" thing is going on now. Many of my contacts ARE in fact leaving, but they are neither coordinated nor do they move to the same alternative service. So if the next statement from satff will be the same disappointing bla bla as the last five has been (I'm still hoping it will not...) I'd suggest a more "professional" strategy here. What we will need is an EXODUS. So we need a Wiki / a BLOG where we describe why and how we migrate to where, and every migrant can add his very personal note there, giving your friends the opportunity to search for their missing. This hole exodus shall be led by some real flick-celebs like Rebekka and Thomas Hawk. THEN we will see how, sunsets, flower macros, cats&dogs and babies will raise the shareholder value.
WE do the content, WE do EXPLORE.

brave new world
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dominikf says:

Very short english summary of the latest article in the Spiegel here :
After some introduction blabla it focuses on the things that should not be done wrong with a web2.0 community, which there are:
1) Announce changes
2) Don't refuse explanations
3) respond to counter-arguments
4) allow critical comments
5) Don't be bullish

Almost all of them cut down to that flickr lives from its community and that because of that the community should be respected...
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dominikf edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Ralf Stockmann (old school, censored)

Thomas Hawk has already left... for Zooomr :)

@shot by Scott

alexa shows the flickr traffic going up:

alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=flickr.com/&...
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Dr. Keats PRO says:

Paris Steve: my Australian-issued ATM debit card has the Maestro function; never used it. Quite astonishing that a card with the Maestro function wouldn't work in Australia, a country that issues cards with the Maestro function!

Unless, perhaps, Australian use of the function only works on cards issued within Australia itself?

One of the reasons why so many people use PayPal, lotta less piss-farting around with dopey bank policies which change fron country to country...

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the topic of this thread!
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Ralf Stockmann says:

@vegitill: Oh my GOD. I can hardly believe it - it's really happening!

Let's see how long until they take down the statistics. I'd never imagined that the protest would be THIS visible.
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dominikf says:

About the graphs:
They are in % of the members, so the only thing they say is that some cameras got less % in the overall. It doesn't say anything else...
Though it would be interesting to know where this comes from. Maybe import from y!photos?

Edit: bad spelling
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dominikf edited this topic ages ago.

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--ex Paris (now London) Steve-- says:

Say's whom, direct me to the relvant German law or its just more BS and trolling...

Just apply common sense. How can consumer law apply to changes to something you haven't bought?


Firstly because you are applying English terminology....
Your earlier link is to a American law definition... and that simply has no basis....

The way German law works this falls under contract law (so far as I can see) and contracts do not have to have a financial component... the terms of reference for this are not what is defined in US law.... or what you or I see as "A consumer"...

As a English guy, living in France with a GF who studied internaitonal law (she has degrees in both French and English law) (and is now doing humanitarian law) I perhaps have a different perspective... I often ask her to explain a certain law and mostly her answer is that we have to go back to basics on terms of reference and HOW law is defined and applied due to the huge differences.

Basically this sort of thing starts at the very way laws are written and defined and then applied and much less emphasis is put on jurisprudence in codified law.
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--ex Paris (now London) Steve-- says:

Dr. Keats ...
I was pretty amazed myself! I guess its a combination of my bank and different systems... I was visiting family so it wasn't a huge deal.. and I guess had I persisted I could have found one place to do it .. or found a bank with ties to my bank...
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mdavidford says:

@ dominikf: I think you could take the empty marketing buzzphrase 'web 2.0' (yuck) out of there and that would hold true for any business - if you don't respect your customers it will catch up with you.
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shining example says:

Excellent summary of "DER SPIEGEL" why Flickr/Yahoo are in DEEP trouble:

some of it is excellent. that they've gone and parrotted the old story that the protest images being removed from explore was yet more evil machination, when anyone who has spent any amount of time in this forum knows that stewart's statement about them not normally being allowed there (whether you agree with that is another matter entirely) is correct, is rather feeble. keeping the polemics down wouldn't have weakened their point one bit.

Many of my contacts ARE in fact leaving

that's the thing. maybe it's just my perception, based on who my contacts are and which groups I'm in... but while many people shouted "I'm leaving!!!1111!" when yahoo IDs became required, very few actually did. whereas this time they're really going.
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thomasklose says:

why not sueing flickr for not filtering nazi stuff on german sites...
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chemical steel says:

@dominikf

About the graphs:
They are in % of the members, so the only thing they say is that some cameras got less % in the overall. It doesn't say anything else...
Though it would be interesting to know where this comes from. Maybe import from y!photos?


Not sure if I understood your question correctly, but the graphs themselves are generated by Flickr. You can see them on Flickr's camera pages (see graphs for Nikon cameras for example).
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Hannes™ says:

Excerpt from the article posted on spiegelonline.de:

So funktioniert der Flickr-Filter
Der Trick:
Wer einen neuen Zugang bei Yahoo.com registriert, verliert natürlich die Kontakte, Bilder und Einstellungen seines alten Accounts. Wer einen kostenpflichtigen Pro-Account hatte, muss für die ungefilterte Version erneut bezahlen. [...]


^^ this part of the spiegel article isn't correct, is it? because you only associate your yahoo ID with your flickr account. right?

Sorry for not sticking to English. Answers should be in English again. Thanks.
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tillwe PRO says:

@Michael: I guess it was about "what explains this drop-down", because it could also be (Yahoo photo import) a surge in photos with not camera info (or done with cheap cameras, no DSLR).
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