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Copyright laws breaking or just another creative application?

Matilde B. says:

molotron.com/
IMHO, definitely fits into the first category though i am not so sure about the second :-) Medium size cropped versions of the original photos. They all seem to be pulled out of Flickr. No apparent way to contact these people.

[edited for clarity]
Posted at 11:17PM, 21 April 2008 PDT ( permalink )
Matilde B. edited this topic 88 months ago.

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Dr. Keats says:

Yeah, all mine are in there - sorted by "Interestingness", it appears. Most are ARR (some are CC). None link back to Flickr, only to the Molotron "tag" page...

The display aspect is quite interesting, but violates the API rules...

Site is hosted by www.hostgator.com, I'm sure some kind soul will run a "Who Is" search on Molotron...
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )
Dr. Keats edited this topic 88 months ago.

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Matilde B. says:

Completely violates the rules!
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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manganite says:

I think it's just a nice picture browser. For me, this little pages making it easy to browse trough some of the wonderful images of flickr are part of the fun of flickr.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dr. Keats says:

Yeah, but they don't link back to Flickr at all, or even say that the images are from Flickr - so, if you see an image you like, how are you to explore more of that person's photostream?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Matilde B. says:

nice browser? come on, our photos are all cropped! That's awful. Simply awful.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Walwyn says:

When I complained about a site to hostgator they were on it within an hour.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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manganite says:

Cropped like making a mosaic with scout... And that's one of the most popular third party tools...

Looks like someone is playing around with the API to create a kind of tag related ever changing mosaics. It's just fun to click around. I think one should not take everything too serious. There are other things like stealing pictures to sell them or other really illegal use one has to be afraid of.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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julian.. says:

I've heard the "part of the fun of flickr" argument levelled at these sites before, but I just don't get it. Just because lots of people use them doesn't make what they are doing right. If Matilde (or anyone) puts photos on flickr and marks them as ARR then no other domain, no matter how fun or popular, should be able to use those ARR photos. Simple.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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jshook says:

From the home page's source:

MOLOTRON
The Flickr API returned error code #100: Invalid API Key (Key has expired)

I guess someone got on this....
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Matilde B. says:

great, no arguing needed! thanks for letting us know.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

There is another site that is taking copyrighted images from here as well...

i have 3rd party sites blocked from accessing my photos, but they still got a hold of it.
what can be done about this?
is there a way to report this to flickr?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

x_xcherrybombx_x What's the name of the site and the link to it?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

sorry...thought i posted it, but it didn't show up.

befuddlr.com/

aren't they in violation of flickrs API terms of use if they use copyrighted images without permission?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

Indeed, they are violating the terms of their API in two ways; they display ARR images in medium size and then they permit the user to "befuddle" it by clicking a button which then transforms the ARR image into a different image altogether.

The initial display of the thumbs is OK (fair use), and a lot of API apps then display the medium image (which generally doesn't bother me -- Flickrriver is a good example of that) but which others have argued is a copyright violation anyway. However, the transformative use (befuddling the image) is surely not OK to do with an image one has not received permission to use. They also don't return any attribution with any images, which you are supposed to do with all CC licensed images.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

i'm sending them an email asking them to remove my image. what else can i do? how can i make flickr aware of their abuse? should i report their site as such using the report abuse link?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

Reporting it here suffices. If Flickr believes them to be using their key incorrectly, they'll pull the key.

If you get no response in a day from the developer, the next step is to contact their hosting service. Devs have 24 hours to remove users from their apps when asked to do so, according to the API ToU.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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jshook says:

I agree. befuddlr should not exist. I hope flickr's action on this is as swift was it evidently was on omlotron.com.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

Well, I could see it existing if they used CC images that allow for adaptation or for the group the guy runs if he makes it clear in the group rules that images submitted to the pool can be "befuddled."
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )
zyrcster edited this topic 88 months ago.

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Kisses&Chaos says:

Thanks for the great info and super fast answers, zyrcster.

It is rather distressing to come across part of your livelihood being sliced and diced for others amusement...if they had asked my permission it would have been one thing, but just taking it...well...that's another.

and i agree jshook.
i'm keeping my fingers x'ed.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Walwyn says:

They also don't return any attribution with any images, which you are supposed to do with all CC licensed images.

This latest application is linking back to the photopage which provides attribution.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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jshook says:

Walwyn: "This latest application is linking back to the photopage which provides attribution."

Is this really good enough? Are you sure all the images are CC? Are you sure all the images that are CC have licenses that allow for this sort of manipulation?
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

He's responding to your claim that they don't return any attribution.

Your argument is adding issues that are not part of what he's responding to, and not part of your original statement.

He's not defending them, simply pointing out data that refutes your original claim.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Walwyn says:

One step at a time. If they fix the ARR issue much of the problem would be fixed. The CC attribution is a separate issue, they could simply say 'walwyn on flickr' they don't have to link at all.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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ColleenM says:

Before they get to attribution, they also have to fix the problem with CC images that are not licensed for derivative works.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

Well, they do have to link as per the Flickr ToS. I suppose the link back could be attribution enough, but clearly stated wouldn't hurt, either.

But yea, they do need to pull images that allow for derivative works.

I mean, it's a clever, fun app. But it still needs to use images that are licensed for such use.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

"I mean, it's a clever, fun app. But it still needs to use images that are licensed for such use. "


precisely.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

And befuddlr have a couple of groups here on Flickr. I dont know if they are directly related to the website, just thought i would share. This is one of them

flickr.com/groups/befuddlr/
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

They are directly related to the website, and the website links to that group.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

and it would seem i'm not the first to have a problem with them:

flickr.com/groups/befuddlr/discuss/72157603644400474/
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

here is the response i received from befuddlr:

Thanks for your email. Photos on Befuddlr are not put there by any
person, they are grabbed via the Flickr API. If you'd like to exclude
your pictures from API searches, there is a setting inside of your
flickr account. under Privacy & Permissions
(www.flickr.com/account/?tab=privacy), set "Hide your photos
from public searches" to "Yes".

Is it not, regardless of my settings (which are and have been set to exclude me from API searches, by the way), still their responsibility to adhere to copyright laws? I'm very irked by the response i received...AND they still have not removed my image.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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zyrcster says:

x_xcherrybombx_x The guy doesn't understand the use of his API key.

Send him this information:

From the Flick APi Terms of Use:

Your rights to use the Flickr APIs terminate automatically if (i) you violate any of these terms,

a. You shall:
ii. Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners. Remember, Flickr doesn't own the images - Flickr users do. Although the Flickr APIs can be used to provide you with access to Flickr user photos, neither Flickr's provision of the Flickr APIs to you nor your use of the Flickr APIs override the photo owners' requirements and restrictions, which may include "all rights reserved" notices (attached to each photo by default when uploaded to Flickr), Creative Commons licenses or other terms and conditions that may be agreed upon between you and the owners. In ALL cases, you are solely responsible for making use of Flickr photos in compliance with the photo owners' requirements or restrictions. If you use Flickr photos for a commercial purpose, the photos must be marked with a Creative Commons license that allows for such use, unless otherwise agreed upon between you and the owner. You can read more about this here: www.creativecommons.org or www.flickr.com/creativecommons.

iv. Remove from your application within 24 hours any Flickr user's photos or other information that the owner of the photo asks you to remove.

b. You shall not:
vi. Use Flickr APIs in any manner or for any purpose that violates any law or regulation, any right of any person, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, rights of privacy, or rights of personality.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

Thanks again, zyrcster.
I will send him the information again.
I told him it doesn't matter if it's the program selecting the images or himself, the owner of the API is ultimately responsible for adhering to the laws and guidelines...but he just doesn't seem to get it or simply doesn't care.

I'm getting more and more irritated.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kisses&Chaos says:

it has been well over 24 hours since i requested they remove my image and still nothing...the photo is still there and they have not responded to the last email i sent, so i'm spoke with their hosting service who have directed me to send yet another email to their group that handles abuse.

this is ridiculous.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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JoWiJo says:

I just checked out Befuddlr myself to see what this was all about. The one photo I accessed was classified as "All Rights Reserved" on the photo's Flickr page. To me this is a viloation of Copyright, even if they do not retain the image they befuddle. As weird as laws can be, I wouldn't be surprised if some lawyer could argue their way out of that, though.

I think zyrcster said it well when he said, "I mean, it's a clever, fun app. But it still needs to use images that are licensed for such use. " Befuddlr needs to limit itself to CC photos with derivative permissions.
Posted 88 months ago. ( permalink )

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