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adactio.com using my pictures?

austenhaines says:

OK so here is the site

adactio.com/elsewhere/?flickr-username=!+*+Krystian`s+PHOTOSynthesis+*+!&flickr-contacts_count=949

Copy and paste the WHOLE text above not just the blue bit (dont know why its like that)

You can find my username in the list (alphebetical), you can then open up my shots to a medium size on that site.

My account is hidden from API searches (supposedly), all my shots are ARR.

I am happy to have misunderstood something here, but when i emailed the flickr member responsible for this site he told me it was tough and that he wasnt doing anything wrong.

Suggestions?

EDIT
To clarify, the site clearly marks my photos as mine, they are not claiming them as their own, but they still dont have my permission.
Posted at 10:56AM, 18 August 2007 PDT ( permalink )
austenhaines edited this topic ages ago.

← prev 1 2
(1 to 100 of 129 replies in adactio.com using my pictures?)
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Michael Smith says:

The user in question appears to be creating a new front-end for the whole Flickr site, which is seems to be against the Flickr Terms of Use. Email Flickr staff direct, and I suspect that they'll jump on him.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Civilized Explorer says:

I don't hold myself out as an authority, but the photos are identified as those of the flickr member, and there is a link back to the page with the photos on flickr, which I think is all that is required. MichaelSmith refers to their being a new front-end for the whole flickr site, so I'll take his word that this may be a violation. However, I note that the page at adactio says it's the page of the adactio person and his contacts. Thus it may not be the whole flickr site, if that's the issue.

shrug - as MichaelSmith says, email staff and await their response. I assume they will handle it privately and may alert you to the resolution privately. Or maybe not.

What's ARR?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Silly Luis says:

ARR = All Rights Reserved
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

And i am not one of his contacts. I have actually blocked him.

And of course ARR means he doesnt have my permission.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

Hi,

I'm the creator of Adactio Elsewhere. It's using the Flickr API to pull in my photos and my contacts' photos. Clicking on one of my contacts brings up their photos and their contacts' photos. Clicking on of their contacts photos brings up the contact's photo and the contact's contacts. And so on.

Because all the links are valid URLs (with query strings), Google must be spidering all the possible connections. To be clear though, I'm not storing anybody's photos on my site. It's just the query strings that determine which pictures are displayed:

elsewhere.adactio.com/?flickr-username=austenhaines
elsewhere.adactio.com/?flickr-username=lucamar
elsewhere.adactio.com/?flickr-username=michaelsmith

...and so on.

If you have marked in your member profile that your photos shouldn't be exposed through the API, then they should *not* be showing up on Adactio Elsewhere or any other third party sites. If you've checked this option, sounds like there's a glitch in the system.

Bye,

Jeremy
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Silly Luis says:

I'm sorry to disagree, but if you don't have explicit permission to display a photo, you MUST NOT show it. And telling Flickr users that it's their fault because they want their photos to be searchable INSIDE Flickr indicates that you have very wrong assumptions on your side.

You would do well turnig off the display of photos whose owners have not opted to show on your site. And pleae, read carefully the API guidelines. That one thing can be done doesn't mean that it's right to do it.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

adactio wrote

If you have marked in your member profile that your photos shouldn't be exposed through the API, then they should *not* be showing up on Adactio Elsewhere or any other third party sites. If you've checked this option, sounds like there's a glitch in the system.

Actually, that's not the case with your application, if I understand it properly. When someone puts in their username (or clicks it from the contact's list), your application goes out to the API and grabs information using that username.
The "Opt out of API" only hides photos from global searches, but not from an API search that includes a specific username.

There is no way to block an API application that calls a specific user's photos.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

Yes, my copyright is Some Rights Reserved, but you have no permission. Have you got every person on Flickr there?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Eric Hunt. says:

Flickr will block him at the source soon enough, if he doesn't respond favorably to *their* nice email.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Silly Luis says:

R°sie: Your photos can be used by anyone (without asking you) provided they follow the CC license you choosed. If you're not comfortable with that, you may want to change them to "unlicensed" (i,e, ARR). Beware, though, that anyone who has used them lawfuly already has the right to continue using them as per the previous license.
_
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

Thanks lucamar. I was pretty sure that you had to ask permission before use, but to be on the safe side from now, I have changed them to All Rights Reserved.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Silly Luis says:

Well, when someone asks for permission what he's really asking for is a explicit "license" to use. Since you already had one, by licensing your photos with a CC license, the asking step was no longer necessary.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

Ok, thanks.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Dr. Keats says:

Rosie - from the "Creative Commons" site: "Creative Commons licenses are non-revocable. This means that you cannot stop someone, who has obtained your work under a Creative Commons license, from using the work according to that license".

wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#What_if_I_change_my_mind.3F

So, if someone's already using an image to which a Creative Commons licences has been applied to an image, changing to "All Rights Reserved" doesn't alter their right o continue using it...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

Eric in SF wrote

Flickr will block him at the source soon enough, if he doesn't respond favorably to *their* nice email.

Hmm, Flickr didn't block him when someone asked the same question here in the forum about 17 months ago ... but then, times change.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Brenda Anderson edited this topic ages ago.

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austenhaines says:

Worrying. I wouldnt mind if it was just my thumbnails it showed, and then clicking on that brought you to flickr. But it isnt. You can access a decent sized image over there on is site.

have of course contacted Flickr and will see the response i get.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

I have relised that, and I am pretty sure that no one is using my photos except for Adactio.

Flickr staff really need to do something about this.

Also, is every user on it, or is it only contacts of that person?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

It uses the API to do a search on whatever username you ask for.

elsewhere.adactio.com/?flickr-username=R°sie
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

Im not a contact and i have him blocked rosie.

I am also opted out of the api thingy.

:-(
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

austenhaines You still appear even though you have opted out of the API.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

yeah i know, thats why i started the thread.

:-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

As I mentioned above, the API Opt Out only removes you from global searches, not from an API call made specifically using your username, as this app does.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

R°sie asked:

Yes, my copyright is Some Rights Reserved, but you have no permission. Have you got every person on Flickr there?


In one sense, yes. By editing the URL you can display the photos from any Flickr user.

In another sense, no. I'm not storing anybody's pictures. And the only username that I explicitly point a link to is my own.

The real issue here is that Google is spidering all the possible permutations and displaying links to those Adactio Elsewhere query strings, often higher than the links to the equivalent user page on Flickr.

So, seeing as there is nothing that I can remove on Adactio Elsewhere (because I'm not storing any pictures or even any username links apart from my own) the problem lies more with Google's indexing of the Adactio Elsewhere.

I could add a robots.txt file or meta element to specify that links shouldn't be indexed but I should point out that this is just one case: any application using the Flickr API faces the same questions. The only reason why it has come to the fore here is that Adactio Elsewhere uses valid spiderable URLs where most apps use Flash or javascript URLs.

Eric in SF said:
Flickr will block him at the source soon enough, if he doesn't respond favorably to *their* nice email.


I haven't received any email from anybody at Flickr about this 'though I have raised this issue with some of the Flickr staff face to face. They didn't seem to view the issue quite as being quite as clear cut as you do.

My question, given a situation like this, was, "Who is responsible? Flickr? The application developer? Google?" Both Paul and George agreed that it was a good question but it was one that they didn't have an answer to.

Bye,

Jeremy
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Eric Hunt. says:

You *REALLY* need to consult with an intellectual property attorney about your site. There are deep-pocketed photographers here who won't complain in the forum. They will serve you with a lawsuit instead.

People get very upset when their photos are displayed outside of the context in which they originally uploaded them. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, even if the duck's walking and quacking is done through mirrors, it's a duck.

Be respectful of the photographic community and listen to people's concerns rather than blaming them.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Eric Hunt. says:

Ps. I think until the copyright wars in the US are over, web mashups using other people's IP is a very risky business to be in.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

Eric in SF said:

Be respectful of the photographic community and listen to people's concerns rather than blaming them.


But I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just pointing out that this is one example of what can happen when data is exposed through an API (or even simply through RSS) and is then indexed by Google at different endpoints to where the data was originally published.

As I said, I intend to add either a robot.txt file or a meta element to instruct searchbots not to index any of the links coming off Adactio Elsewhere (if a Flickr username is in the query string of that link). But that still leaves the broader issue.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

Well, the broader issue to me is that you are displaying people's medium sized images on your website, and some people don't allow you to do that (most especially those photos marked "© All Rights Reserved".) It has nothing to do with whether google is spidering your pages. If I make my way through the links on your site (going from contact to contact), I'll eventually land on my photos. Or I can simply put my username (or anyone else's) into the URL and call them up.

The issue is that while the API functionally allows you to do what you've done, the Terms of Service for the API specifically say that you must respect the license terms of the photos that you display. That's the bottom line.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

So what am I supposed to do? Put something in my code that says "If the username equals this or that or the other, then don't display the photos"? And then put in almost every single username on Flickr in that line of code?

I'm genuinely curious as to how you think I can resolve this seeing as I am not linking to anybody's username apart from my own.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

It's not my application. If you don't know how to resolve this, then perhaps you should stop running it. Sounds extreme, yes, but your app (which, to me, is quite useful as a way to view my contacts' stuff and find new things) does seem to run afoul of the TOS for the API.

Just as an example, the TOS says:

You Shall: Remove from your application within 24 hours any Flickr user's photos or other information that the owner of the photo asks you to remove.

So if I say, please remove all my photos from your application, what does that mean? As you say, you aren't hosting my photos, but yet, your "application" (the website) is displaying all my photos, and all the comments I've made on other people's photos, and if I requested that they be "not displayed", then according to the TOS, you have 24 hours to comply. If your application has no way to handle that request, then you need to fix it. (just to be clear, I'm not asking that personally, just using it as an example... but I'm sure there are others who will ask that).
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

But, as you say, I'm not hosting anybody's pictures so there's nothing for me to remove.

And it's same for every other application using the Flickr API. For example, I can go to Flappr and search by username "austenhaines". That user's pictures are then displayed... even though they are ARR.

The only difference between something like Flappr and Adactio Elsewhere is that Flappr is built with Flash making it effectively invisible to Google. That's why I maintain that the real issue here is one of search engine indexing (which I have taken steps to change).

There are literally hundreds of third-party applications out there where you can view the photos from any Flickr user. But as long as Google doesn't see them then it remains completely academic. If a tree falls in the forest and Google doesn't index it, does it make a noise?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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control.cancel says:

So you're saying you refuse to abide by the TOS?

Your display of thumbnails or small images with the appropriate link is transformative fair use. Your display of "medium" size images isn't; your display supersedes the original Flickr page with no significant other purpose.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Silly Luis says:

It's very simple, adactio: authenticate your users and don't use any photos you don't have permission to use (at least, not unlicensed photos).

You can't take the excuse that every other one is doing it; we're dealing now with what YOU do. And what you do is wrong.

We can't design your application for you: if you can't comply with Flickr TOS and IP laws then take it down. It's just that simple.
_
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Silly Luis edited this topic ages ago.

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R°sie says:

I seem to have left pieces of myself around the internet. This is my attempt to bring them together.

That is what appears on the screen while the page is loading. Does that mean you claim ownership to our photos? Seems a lot like it.

Also, what is the point of adactio.com? Is it just a miniture Flickr for you to play with? or are you attempting to make a new Flickr completely, even though users cannot administrate their own photos?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

@adactio, in actual fact my photos are NOT on Flappr. When you search for my username you find photos of me, but taken by someone else. People who have not turned off the API thingy. So come back to me here again and explain this.

YOu claim my shots are on this other site. They are NOT. Youre wrong about this, youre IN the wrong regards youre own site, and its time to take responsibility.

Austenhaines

EDIT
No im wrong! They are there when you search for user. So thanks for the heads up. However that makes 2 wrongs. Now if i remember from being a kid, 2 wrongs dont make a right. PErhaps you remember this? LOL
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

adactio wrote:

> But, as you say, I'm not hosting anybody's pictures so there's nothing for me to remove.

the fact that you are hosting the photo or not is irrelevent.

if i see any of my photos used on a website (especially a commercial website or website with advertising), without my permission, i will contact my IP lawyer and sue for copyright enfringement damages. this applies even if the photo is hosted by flickr and displayed in-line (with the <IMG SRC=...> html tag.

the only exception is for "fair-use" when thumbnail-size (only) images are used, e.g. in search engine results.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Patrick Costello says:

I'm struggling to understand what the big deal is here. If you go to this site and specifically ask it to search flickr for your photos it will show them to you. How are you (or anyone else) going to then get confused and think that because any flickr pictures can be found via the site in this way, all 1 billion of them must belong to adactio? If I use Google* to find my image, I don't worry that Google is claiming ownership of my work.

*other search engines are available :-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

i am not confused about who owns the photos, and the site doesnt try and claim ownership. But the site DOES NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION to use my photos. Especially when showing them at medium size.

If you are happy with this then great.

If it was just the thumbnail, and it linked straight back to the photo page on flickr, then there is an argument for this. But not at medium size.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

> I'm struggling to understand what the big deal is here.

the big deal is that they use copyrighted photos on their website without permission of the copyright owner. this is called copyright enfringement. what search engine they use to locate the photos, and whether the photos are hosted on flickr or on their website is irrelevent.

some photos (e.g. ARR = All Right Reserved) cannot be used without permission, except for "fair use" (e.g. thumbnail size in search engine results).
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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R°sie says:

But why have you made this site? Is Flickr not adequate for viewing contacts photos?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

Come on Flickr staff. You replied to my help by email saying that you are looking into the matter, but i find that if people shout loud enough in the help forum, that staff seem to have enough time to sort these things out, but by following the correct path (help by email), it takes forever. So i have decided to remind you of this issue here, and if necessary will keep reminding you of it.

By appearing in the help forums and sorting other issues out for people here, you just end up encouraging more people to post their problems here than folowing the correct path.

Please can i have an update on the situation?

thanks
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Kevin says:

As soon as I have feedback from the people I've talked about it with, I will post it. Thanks.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

thanks

:-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

30 days now!

Still waiting, still trusting flickr. just.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Rick Buch says:

Hmmm...I haven't looked at adactio.com but a google search of my name did not link to his site, BUT it did link to ex.plode.us which uses flickr friends lists. Those in turn list all their friends lists. I did find links to ALL of my photo pages and ALL of my comments. This is not necessarily bad I guess.
I also found this which really disturbed me.

Quote:
HomePorn TV - INVITED(Please Put all thank you notes here). 2007-09-05 06:33:34 flickr.com. Rick Buch posted a reply:. Thank you peppergroyne for the invite. invited ...
homeporn.tv/invited-_/ - Similar pages
Unquote

I am not willing to click onto such a dubious sounding website so I have no idea what is actually there, but that is a reference to a comment I made on flickr.

I think if anyone wants to search my photostream they should be forced to do so through flickr's website and not through outside search engines.

Is that not the intent of Flickr?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

31 days and counting.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Kyudos says:

adactio - surely the simplest way around your problem is to not serve any URL other than the one that contains YOUR username.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

32 days
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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vfm4 says:

@austenhaines, i was checking who is on ! * Krystian`s PHOTOSynthesis * !'s contactlist and i assure you you still, or again, are...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

Have had him blocked for ages

it isnt just his contact list, but you can find a contact of his, then look at their contacts, then look at their contacts and so on and so on.

EDIT
Have made you a contact, and after the site is updated it will now start showing your photos too.

:-(
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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vfm4 says:

then i have to block you.... sorry...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

of course vfm4

I just wish flickr would sort this out.

You are probably on his site somewhere as the contact list just keeps on going.

I just added you to show you the problem (sorry)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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vfm4 says:

i was aware of the problem and i unblocked you.
now, please, make me a contact again, i wonder if flickr sends me a new notice (if that's what it's called)..
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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vfm4 says:

thanks, austen, i'm your newest contact!

(though not for long)

:-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

LOL
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

33 days
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

34 days
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

> You can find my username in the list (alphebetical), you can then open up my shots to a medium size on that site.

the images that i can see on this site are smaller than medium size (they appear to be what flickr calls "small" size).

> My account is hidden from API searches (supposedly), all my shots are ARR.

there are many ways to access your photos if they are public. using the API is not the only way. a server could use just HTTP "get" requests and parse the HTML returned. and there is nothing flickr can do about that, because that's the protocol used by web browsers.

> when i emailed the flickr member responsible for this site he told me it was tough and that he wasnt doing anything wrong.

that's also my impression, it might fall under "fair use" since they only display small size and link to the flickr pages for more infos. i'm not worried about this site.

i am much more worried about a site like www.flickrcash.com aka www.picturesandbox.com , which is now back on-line.
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adactio says:

I've added an exception to the code so that it checks that the requested username isn't "austenhaines"—if it is, a no pictures are returned.

But as loupiote points out, this is just one application of the many out there using the Flickr API. Unless you mark all your pictures as "friends and family only", your pictures are viewable on any of those sites through the API. If you genuinely don't want your pictures showing up anywhere beyond Flickr and you don't want to mark them as private, you'll need to get in touch with each one of those sites and demand that they put similar exceptions into their code. Or you could demand that Flickr itself makes an exception in its code so that your pictures aren't available through the API (or RSS)—though that may be impossible as Flickr itself uses the same API as those third-party sites.

Good luck.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

@adactio

HOWEVER...

this does not mean that any site using the API has the RIGHT to do what they want with our public photos.

in particular, is the photos are ARR (all right reserved), the use of the photo is subject to permission by the copyright owner, even if the photo is public and available through the API.

for example, i do not permit my ARR photos to be used on any commercial site (e.g. a web-page with advertising).

but i STILL want my photos to be available through the flickr API, because i use some external tools that use the API.

but the fact that photos are available through the API does not grant YOU or anyone else the right to use the photos in a way that is not permitted by the copyright owner.

I hope that you understand that?

so please respect intellectual property rights of others, please.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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austenhaines says:

thanks, problem solved.

@loupiote

Actually if you click on the thumbnail, sure a small photo opens up, but then if you click on that small photo it becomes a medium size.

Still matter for me is solved.

:-)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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adactio says:

but the fact that photos are available through the API does not grant YOU or anyone else the right to use the photos in a way that is not permitted by the copyright owner


I understand that completely, loupiote. I'm not even "using" the pictures in any meaningful sense of the word. The pictures can, theoretically, be viewed on Adactio Elsewhere if you follow enough contacts of contacts of contacts but I don't provide any direct interface for viewing anyone's pictures except my own. This whole issue arose because Google visited every possible combination of contacts of contacts of contacts ad infinitum.

Other third-party apps allow you to directly input someone's username and then view their photos regardless of whether those photos are ARR. Now that might be considered disrespectful of the IP of the photographer in question.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

> Now that might be considered disrespectful of the IP of the photographer in question.

it is, if a URL allows doing this, because then this URL might be reference in some other page (including a search engine), and this link might show copyrighted images used in an unauthorized way.

now if the form on your page only takes cgi-bin PUT and if the parameters cannot be fed by the way of an URL, this is different.
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Silly Luis says:

You may keep talking of other websites but that's not the question The question is your site, and there should be NO WAY on YOUR site to show others' photos without permission. It's extremely easy.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

well, if the photo is ARR (you can determine that with the API), you should not show anything other than the thumbnail (just like search engines).

if there is a CC, you can show larger sizes depending of the CC, if the CC allows it.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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robbersdog says:

lucamar, my thoughts exactly.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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joostburger says:

Please stop republishing my pictures. I have sent you a flickr mail with an official request. Everything is copyrighted, and I have disabled the API options.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Josh Sommers says:

I think most of you guys are missing the point. Whether you like it or not, your images are made available through the flickr API. This is something you agreed to when you joined flickr. A site such as adactio's site is just using the API in an acceptable manner.

If you would like to see the flickr TOS changed so that your photos cannot be displayed outside of flickr, you'll have to take that up with flickr. You are all blaming adactio but he has done nothing wrong.

lucamar- ...there should be NO WAY on YOUR site to show others' photos...

Well, sorry, the fact of the matter is that there IS a way to show other's photos outside of flickr, again, take the matter up with flickr and if they do not respond in a manner which pleases you, you are always free to choose another photo sharing site.

You guys are all using the word "use" very loosely. His site is dislaying images for a flickr user and their contacts and so on. The images all link back to flickr and their respective owners. His site does not DO anything with your images or USE them in any way that cannot already be done on flickr. He is displaying the sizes of the images that can be seen on flickr. He is not sneakily showing the original size if you have disabled that size from being viewed, etc.

If your pictures can be seen on flickr, they can be downloaded, stolen, printed, etc- no matter what copyright you use- this is just a fact of life when it comes to putting your images on the internet- if someone can see your image, they can take it and do whatever they want with it, legal or not, right or wrong, that is the nature of the web and the way HTML and browsers work.

Having your images show up on other websites doesn't really change any of that. Adactio isn't selling your images, he isn't stealing them, claiming them as his own or any such thing, so I think you guys should all get off of his back and wake up: your public flickr images are PUBLIC in the true sense of the word, perhaps some of you need to look it up. If you want your images to be PRIVATE, then mark them as such.

I'm not saying I am happy about any of this or that it is right or good, but it is what it is. I've had many of my images displayed on many sites outside of flickr without explicit permission. Unless someone is trying to steal my image, sell it, make money off of it or claim it as their own, I don't really care because it is no different than having them shown on flickr.

Perhaps some of you should explain WHY this is such a big deal to you.
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Silly Luis says:

[forget it, I'll not answer that]
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robbersdog says:

Pisco Bandito, I rather think you are missing the point somewhat. Flickr's TOS do not allow anyone to overide the copyright associated with the images. Saying that because it's possible for adactio to do this it must be OK is a joke. I can walk into a shop, pick something up and walk out without paying. Just because I can it doesn't mean I am allowed to. The reason society works as it does is because most people are respectful of the laws. We all know that there are some things we're just not allowed to do, even though they can be done easily.

You have shown a complete lack of respect for the rules (laws) about copyrighted images. You may be OK with other people displaying your images and that's fine for you. The thing about Flickr is that it gives you some control over how the images are displayed. By displaying the images outside of flickr that control is removed from the person who owns those images. Don't forget, we're talking about other people's property here, not your own.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Posting a photo on flickr does not in any way make it public property. These images are property of the photographer. If you take it or cause it to be diaplayed elsewhere or 'use' it in any way other than fair use you are stealing.

Just saying that it's the nature of the web so just put up with it is your choice. Not ours. No-one needs to justify to anyone else their reasons for not wanting their property stolen.

Perhaps you could explain a) why should we put up with our images being stolen just because you think we should? and b) why is our desire to protect our property so offensive to you?
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

> I think most of you guys are missing the point. Whether you like it or not, your images are made available through the flickr API. This is something you agreed to when you joined flickr. A site such as adactio's site is just using the API in an acceptable manner.

no: it is not acceptable to use the photo in a way that is not permitted by the licensing terms. the API can be used to check the licensing terms for each photo (e.g. ARR, of the various CC), and the photo can be legally used only according with those terms, or based on written permission from the copyright holder.

robbersdog is right.

read the API Terms of Use: www.flickr.com/services/api/tos/


You shall:
[...]
Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners. Remember, Flickr doesn't own the images - Flickr users do. Although the Flickr APIs can be used to provide you with access to Flickr user photos, neither Flickr's provision of the Flickr APIs to you nor your use of the Flickr APIs override the photo owners' requirements and restrictions, which may include "all rights reserved" notices (attached to each photo by default when uploaded to Flickr), Creative Commons licenses or other terms and conditions that may be agreed upon between you and the owners. In ALL cases, you are solely responsible for making use of Flickr photos in compliance with the photo owners' requirements or restrictions. If you use Flickr photos for a commercial purpose, the photos must be marked with a Creative Commons license that allows for such use, unless otherwise agreed upon between you and the owner. You can read more about this here: www.creativecommons.org or www.flickr.com/creativecommons.

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Brad Hartwig says:

I would ask that you provide a script statement similar to that offered to austenhaines above for me please.

Especially in light of the fact that your website does not seem to have any content about you on it, I find it rather strange that you would link to photos of others (including me) regardless of what "black box mystery" you claim on the search engine.

Personally, you have a website, post your photos in your own code and leave everyone else's stuff alone.

Regards,

Brad Hartwig
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@PaulAnnett says:

-
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joostburger says:

The fact that it can be done is no reason to do it.

And if you like to use someone elses content in a different context/design it is nice to ask..

"Personally, you have a website, post your photos in your own code and leave everyone else's stuff alone." Well said Brad!
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pasmateRs says:

I understand your frustrations but I have to agree with Pisco Bandito... you have to see the bigger picture here! Flickr are openly encouraging the use of their API (which is great in it's own way) so of course people are gonna come up with lots of different ways to use it (or abuse it) but it's solely Flickrs responsibility to design it the way that it's compliant with their TOS not the users to take some extra steps to filter out results and whatnot... so your issues are with Flickr not some poor guy who thought it would be a cool idea to use Flickr functionality on his site..

"The fact that it can be done is no reason to do it." - joostburger
It's the fact that he didnt do it on purpose to behave like this, rather it's a byproduct of Flickrs implementation of their API, and that Flickr are encouragint the use of said API...

I totaly understand your frustrations, i also dont fancy the idea of my pictures appearing on random sites out of context of Flickr but i dont attack them(unless they rip them,claim ownership etc) because i know what's going on behind the scenes and what i could be getting into when started posting pictures on the web (esp. sites like these).. so it's up to Flickr to not serve those photos outside of their domain or add it as an option or something, or up to you to not post photos on such open public sites like these..
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joostburger says:

...
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Silly Luis says:

pasmateRs: it's a byproduct of Flickrs implementation of their API

No, it's the by-product of the defficient design and implentation of an application. Transferring restrictions that should be in the application to the API would kill the utility of the Flickr API (or any API, for that matter) and convert it in a toy.

You're claiming that it you don't want to get hurt with a hammer you should'n go near one. That's nonsense: Both you and the person handling the hammer must take care. Or make hammers of cheap plastic, as you say?
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Andy Hume says:

Hmm, I have a similar problem to adactio then...

Any photo in Flickr is available through a URL on my remote application.

remote.thedredge.org/flickr/single.php?nsid=74105777@N00&...

However this puts into focus that it's Google's indexing that is the sticking point here. My application only every shows links to my contacts, and does not recursively list their contacts ad infinitum. This means austenhaines photos won't be indexed by Google, but they are still available on a page if you know the photo id.

Having said that, if you're photos are available to me through Flickr's Open API, I can't help thinking the issues between you and Flickr really.

Interesting stuff. What say you Flickr staff?
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Andy Hume edited this topic ages ago.

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blech​ says:

bighugelabs.com/flickr/scout.php?username=austenhaines&am...
bighugelabs.com/flickr/scout.php?username=lucamar&sor...
bighugelabs.com/flickr/scout.php?username=michaelsmith&am...

Can someone explain why that's OK and adactio's page isn't? Is it merely that bighugelabs is well known here, or that he's using small images not medium ones? I note that bighugelabs doesn't display ARR notices either, so it can't be that.

(edit) I see that ausenhaines did indeed say that the use of thumbnails was fine.
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blech​ edited this topic ages ago.

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sean_mcgee says:

This thread is idiotic...The purpose of Adactio's site is not to search for your photos or even display your photos.

If you hack the URL to display your own photos, his sit isn't using your photos YOU are using your photos.

The fact that you have to hack the URL to display your own photos shows that his intentions are anything but bad.

Go to the URL adactio.com/elsewhere/ and see if you can find your photos without hacking the address bar. Just through clicks.

Unless you're a contact of his, or a contact of a contact of his, etc., the purpose of the site is NOT to display your photos.

And anyhow, websites are not users. People that go to a website are users. So if you go to the website, hack the address bar to display your photos, and see them, he is not misusing your photos, because ultimately, YOU are the user.

Get off your high horses and complain about something more relevant like cancer or something.

EDIT: Learn something about web development before you go off and accuse someone of IP abuse.
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sean_mcgee says:

lucamar said: [...] by-product of the defficient design and implentation of an application. Transferring restrictions that should be in the application to the API would kill the utility of the Flickr API (or any API, for that matter) and convert it in a toy.


Wrong...anyone that's anyone in web application development knows who Jeremy Keith (adactio) is. He's the web developer we all wish we were.

If anything, the reason this so-called problem came up is because Jeremy designs unobtrusively. That means, he designs applications in such a way that they will degrade with older browsers and be accessible. He could have been lazy and used Flash or used bad un-semantic inaccessible code, but he didn't. Instead he strove to create quality code.

I bet that the reason Flickr hasn't responded to this, is that all the developers at Flickr know who Jeremy Keith is. Anyhow, the only way Flickr should respond to this (should they agree with you) is by disabling API for everyone across the board.
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Silly Luis says:

I'm still wondering what's the relation between what you say and what I said. I know lots of good programmers with high design skills and yet they blunder some times. There's nothing inherent in good, clear, portable code that precludes it being not what it should. It may be all that and yet have holes that have to be patched up or reworked.

There's nothing personal going on here. It's just a technical matter that has to be corrected. That's all. It has nothing to do with the excellence or reputation of the coder.
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Josh Sommers says:

Anyone care to respond to the fact that many other sites, including Scout are capable of displaying your images as well?

I'm afraid I must go back to the fact that the API is what enables your images to be displayed outside of flickr and I think you ought to take up the issue with flickr, not people who use the API.
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Walwyn says:

Wrong...anyone that's anyone in web application development knows who Jeremy Keith (adactio) is. He's the web developer we all wish we were.

Good grief! How embarrassing.
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Michael Smith says:

Not THE Jeremy Keith, surely!
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

Anyone care to respond to the fact that many other sites, including Scout are capable of displaying your images as well?

Scout displays thumbnails, which is fine (i.e. fair use).

I'm afraid I must go back to the fact that the API is what enables your images to be displayed outside of flickr and I think you ought to take up the issue with flickr, not people who use the API.

and if someone kills someone else with a gun, you have to take up the issue with the gun manufacturer, not with whoever pulled the trigger...
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Dr. Keats says:

I don't wish I was a web developer... then I'd be one of those nits who comes into a thread and demands that everything I don't like be changed to suit me because "I'm a web developer..."...
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Tom Armitage says:

and if someone kills someone else with a gun, you have to take up the issue with the gun manufacturer, not with whoever pulled the trigger...

Do you really want to equate issues with API calls to murder? I think a healthy dollop of perspective on all sides is probably going to help, if that's the route we're going down here.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

Do you really want to equate issues with API calls to murder? I think a healthy dollop of perspective on all sides is probably going to help, if that's the route we're going down here.

of course not, i was just echoing what Pisco Bandito wrote here: flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/50508/317574/

in any case, i think the root of the problem is in the was the Flickr API works, and i am trying to explain and illustrate that in this thread:

flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/56304/
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Silly Luis says:

I guess it's about time to link again to the Flickr APIs Terms of Use.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

The problem is that the Flickr API should enforce protection of ARR photos, but it does not.

the bits of ARR photos (even public & safe) should not be available through the API unless a password is used, except for the thumbnail of the photo.

this is the root of the problem.
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Markociclehim says:

Ah what a discussion,..Jeremys example of flick APi uses is quite nice and I'm quite proud that someone actually took the time to browse around my photos from adactio or somewhere else, I can't see where's all the fuss about.
People experiment with API's that's what Jeremy did and period, none harm done to anyone.
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FlyButtafly says:

I totally agree with you, loupiote.
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Walwyn says:

I can't see where's all the fuss about.

The problem is copyright. People put stuff on flickr on the understanding that it will be displayed on flickr, not rebadged on some other site minus the copyright information, and much of the problem stems from the initial wank attitude from the site owner: "Just because I can I will."

Perhaps we should scan his web development books, put them online and then tell him to go fuck himself
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golden fire says:

I agree the problem is copyright..I also think flickr is ignoring this issue..head in the sand comes to mind. Perhaps they are just all out for coffee with these latest up and coming web masters....these so called nice folks who mean us no harm. .....Here's what staff Dunstan Orchard said about picnik 5 days ago when he advised us to take our concerns to picnik directly......

"I'd imagine suggestions about their product would be responded to in a more timely fashion over there.

They're very nice folks, so be sure to have a chat with them before getting all hot and bothered.".....


Flickr, get with the program. ..it is obvious we expect some sort of protection from you ..try to evolve to meet these challenges..

.
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Flickr Staff

Paul Hammond says:

We're not ignoring this thread, or the new one loupiote started - quite the opposite. There's a healthy debate going on at Flickr HQ as to what our response should be, and so many of us have really felt uncomfortable in responding here in case our views are taken to be *the* flickr line.

But I can see how our silence can be interpreted as ignoring the issue, and I'm sorry about that.

Our hands are also tied slightly by the huge number of applications that rely on the existing behaviour of the API. If we make changes too quickly, we'd break a lot of things (like, say, fd's flickr toys) that a lot of flickr users love.

We're interested in hearing everyone's point of view - but please keep it civil. In particular, can we try to steer clear of comparing this issue to murder or suggesting that someone isn't allowed to have an opinion about what happens to their photos just because they've never heard of Jeremy Keith?

[oh, and in the interests of full disclosure, Jeremy aka Adactio is a personal friend of mine, just in case anyone thinks that's relevant]
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FlyButtafly says:

Paul - thanks for the input.

FWIW, I don't mind thumbnails of my images showing up temporarily when they're called up through the API directly by my username. I don't like the med. and larger sizes of my ARR images being reposted on other sites using the API - whether they pull them from the interestingness feeds or wherever. I obviously want to be able to access them myself through authentication, but I don't like others being able to snag my ARR photos and re-post them somewhere else without my knowledge (and most of the time, there's not even any attribution).

I hope you're also maybe talking about the RSS feed issue to? :)

edit: added "ARR"
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

@Paul Hammond

i answered you in the other thread.
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Dr. Keats says:

Given that Paul posted his comment in this thread, it might have been helpful to have posted your response in this thread...

Here it is:

"@Paul Hammond (staff)

yes, i am sure that you are completely aware of this issue. it's certainely not easy to resolve, but personally i really feel that flickr is seen as a "free for all" source of photos, and that the current API does not help much in respecting the right of phographers that have ARR photos on flickr.

Our hands are also tied slightly by the huge number of applications that rely on the existing behaviour of the API. If we make changes too quickly, we'd break a lot of things (like, say, fd's flickr toys) that a lot of flickr users love.

sure, we want our photos showcased, and we want to use great external tools like Scout and all the other flickr toys, and we want image search engines to find our photos using the API. but we want to control who can leech our data using un-authentified API calls. i think that's fair".
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

i gave the link, it's better - if you copy my postings, and then i edit it, it will cause discrepensies. i prefer that you not do that, especially since i provided a direct link :)

e.g the last sentence should be:

but we want to control which of our data can be leeched out using un-authentified API calls.
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Dr. Keats says:

No, I think it's just plain silly to spreading posts across two threads - if a post is a direct reply to what's been said in Thread A, that's where the reply should be posted, not in Thread B...

Then again, I can't see why we have multiple threads on what appears to be pretty much the same issue...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

This thread was closed automatically due to a lack of responses over the last month.

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