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[Official Topic] German SafeSearch settings

Flickr Staff

Stewart says:

As of a short time ago, we changed the way the content filter setting works for German members, allowing them to turn SafeSearch off to allow photos flagged as 'moderate'. As we’ve stated before, Flickr’s intent is never to censor content, but rather to comply with local legal restrictions. In Germany, local law (Jugendmedien-Staatsvertrag JMStV) requires stringent age verification in order to display online content that could be considered harmful to minors.

After further researching our available options, we decided to adjust our policy in Germany to enable pictures rated as “moderate” to be visible for our users starting today. We've received plenty of feedback from our members on this and hopefully this change helps address some of the desires expressed while still complying with legal requirements regarding age verification.

We are still limiting access for users in Germany to the "restricted" category on Flickr, which applies to pictures not considered appropriate for kids and teenagers according to local law. At this stage, pictures rated as "restricted" can only be uploaded and viewed privately, but not displayed publicly.

We are continuing to actively evaluate various technical options, including exploring whether there is a way we can verify users' age which would meet the very high standards set by German law, and which would offer additional choice to our members in Germany.

Here's a link to our post in the German forum.

[This thread carries over from the previous one.]
Posted at 5:43PM, 20 June 2007 PDT ( permalink )
heather (staff) edited this topic 67 months ago.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 42 43
(601 to 700 of 4,255 replies in [Official Topic] German SafeSearch settings)
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widderson old school + still censored says:

Dominik,

I was thinking about the same.
The paper version will be important for those who don't browse around the net on a regular base but have a digital camera und do not know what to do with the pics.

So, as Spiegel is still one of the most important magazines, a lot of those people flickr/yahoo is keen of, will think twice where to store their photos.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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manganite says:

It seemed that they were not able to calm down the discussion...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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iansand says:

Perhaps this incident has highlighted a problem with German law. Or it is all flickr's fault.

What would I know?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Stewart says:

[This is a little long, but I'm trying to answer a few of the more general questions and tie a few things together.]

Those of you who are asking for the internal legal arguments, letters from regulators, citations of articles in the criminal code, etc., are bound to be disappointed. This is just not going to happen.

Even if it were a reasonable thing for us to publish all of that (and it's not, for a long list of reasons) I'm also pretty sure it wouldn't help. It'd just lead to more second-guessing and armchair lawyering ("well, if Bob had already said that in his email on 6/14 at 17:23, how come Suzy asked again the next day?" or "hey! - there is no transcript of the 6:30am PST conference call from the 13th - how can we know what really happened?", etc.)

I can say that the *legal* decisions here are not mine personally: I'm not sitting in my office in California guessing at German laws, but working with local counsel in our German office (in-house and external) and elsewhere in the EU, along with German management and policy teams. This has nothing to do with anyone's religious feelings or personal prudishness and it also is not done out of ignorance of the law.

In one sense, since I'm responsible for Flickr and am in charge of how it actually operates, I could do the cowboy thing, ignore legal advice or requests from in-country management and change the filters to work however I think they should (still have to convince the team here to actual change code, but that's another story).

But what I want are good long term solutions -- that's not going to happen if we (internally) can't work together. And, after I've spent tens of hours with my best possible arguments, I have to respect what the legal and policy groups are telling me and why.

As I said earlier, it actually isn't as simple as it looks. I think most people in my shoes, with all the same knowledge that I had, would have made most of the same choices. Yes, I knew that it'd be a bit of a disaster, but I was choosing from a menu of different disasters, and I think we ended up with the smallest one.

Having said that there were a few things that we did (and myself specifically) that were totally wrong and for which I apologize: chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to) and not posting right away in the forums (this was a legal command -- as opposed to suggestion -- but since we eventually ended up saying more or less what we wanted to say in the first place, I should have just posted anyway).

So, I'm sorry for all the extra annoyance and confusion caused by the small amounts of communication. And I'm more sorry for those people who feel like "their" Flickr was harmed/destroyed/disappeated etc. in the last week. On that last topic, I'm writing another post now.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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noledge says:

sad. one week for this soultion.
i know, all of you're saying "IANAL" - but who is your laywer, maybe some people (including the german jugendschutz) should contact himself; obviously flickr-staff talks not to him.

(edit: ok, i wrote that before the last long posting)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Donald... (protesting flickr censorship!) says:

Franz Patzig, say that you can't recommend flickR to anyone who cares for civil rights but you can recommend it to porn junkies, because they are improving their support for "restricted contents".

Donald
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

Good day, everybody -- my internet connection wasn't working, so it's only now that I jump into this new -- and fairly longish -- thread. I'm quite puzzled what I should make of the situation. First of all: I want to stay with Flickr, and for me personally, the less restrictive filtering should be okay. But what worries me is the way this was handled. I really don't like the tone of the official statements (especially the lack of a "we are sorry"), I really, really, really don't like it how long finding this "solution" needed, I have a problem with the lack of professionality of Yahoos lawyers or consultants, and especially with their missing sensitivity for a web 2.0 community.

I would have liked a more innovative, feel-good solution, that would have fit my mental image of Flickr. Or something like catharsis after the crisis. That didn't happen.

What I found very positve is that flickr staff (especially Eric and Ben) talked a lot more (and personal, and sincere) in this thread than in the 5000 postings before (and I agree with kawazu that the hostility was maybe more of a self-replicating circle, not something that was there a priori).

I guess I will stay with Flickr, but it won't feel the same anymore. That's sad.

(Edit: I only now see Stewarts latest -- some of this is what I would have liked to read in the first, second, third, fourth or fifth statement!)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
tillwe edited this topic 83 months ago.

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widderson old school + still censored says:

... was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to) ....

did I got that right?
You really thought we would not notice it?

leaving speechless
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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iansand says:

And so it goes. Round 17....
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Martin Q says:

Eric: You asked (several pages back) what people thought was the reason for flickr implementing this policy a week ago, if not in order to comply with German law.

Speaking personally, I imagine that there was a vague notion within flickr that this action was necessary to comply with German law. The problem is that from the outside it looks like someone at flickr didn't do their research. It looks like a lazy, half-baked solution which was rushed in to meet a deadline at all costs. In the atmosphere of that rush, that someone's team managed to convince themselves that it would be OK to do it this way and even if relatively very few users (in a far away country) got upset, they could be placated by simply mentioning a law. They convinced themselves it would be fine to alter the terms and conditions of a paid service without consultation or warning. And eventually they convinced themselves this was the only way of solving the problem. Right up to the point where the protests started, at which point they then start to wonder why there's a fuss about such an obviously justified measure. That's what it looks like from out here.

Because if it wasn't like that, and given that the majority of people who've looked at the law seem to agree that this measure wasn't necessary, it's pretty hard to imagine why else it happened. Frankly I'm surprised you had to ask, but there you have it.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

@Stewart

Yes, I knew that it'd be a bit of a disaster, but I was choosing from a menu of different disasters, and I think we ended up with the smallest one.

maybe(?) it would have been a smaller disaster to get to the current solution first, rather than a week after initially blocking all "moderate" photos in germany?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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tillwe says:

Stewart about not posting: "his was a legal command -- as opposed to suggestion -- but since we eventually ended up saying more or less what we wanted to say in the first place, I should have just posted anyway" -- you're right, but what kind of f*cked-up legal department with not a single bit of community management knowledge gives these kind of commands?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Martin Q says:

OK, while I was writing, so was Stewart. I take on board what he says - most of it, anyway (I hate to think what a bigger disaster would have looked like, unless he means the commercial effect of missing a launch deadline???).

But my remarks on how things looked to this mere outsider, and my surprise that Eric had to ask, still stand.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dominik Schwind says:

Stewart

Yes, I knew that it'd be a bit of a disaster, but I was choosing from a menu of different disasters, and I think we ended up with the smallest one.


Now I wonder how the bigger disasters would look like...

(Edited for typo)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Dominik Schwind edited this topic 83 months ago.

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axel hydre says:

Thank heavens the staff can interact again - although you guys have been sorely beaten - unfairly yes - but also understandably.

Do I read the situation correctly:

We'ed like to be a self-moderated community and will be that where we can but certain governments have rules which hold the community host responsible for content and self-moderation just doesn't meet their needs.

It isn't clear how or by whom or when or even if that circle will be squared.

Is that about right ?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Feffef says:

@Stewart:
Since you seem to be starting to answer the questions that really bother us now, please try to answer this one as well:

What's the reason for that tags like "thinkflickrthink", "censorship" or "againstcensorship" no longer appear as "popular tags of the week". Less popular tags about this issue (like "zensur20") still make it to that list.

And if this hasn't got technical reasons, please explain why you decided to "hide" (do avoid using the c-word) them there. Of course even more interesting would be _who's in charge of such decisions_. (you personally, other flickr staff or yahoo), but I guess you can't or won't tell us that.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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zettpress says:

Good post, Stewart. At least you have now been explaining a bit more. Won't convince many to stay, but like Eric's post earlier, much appreciated.

Funny note - as I write this and look out of my Munich office, there seems to brew quite a heavy thunderstorm. Guess somebody somewhere is also lurking here. :-)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Walljet says:

@Stewart:

Where is this photo?

static.flickr.com/1344/552413411_ef709038e7_m.jpg

This photo was in my account until yesterday. It´s deleted by you?

Walljet.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Donald... (protesting flickr censorship!) says:

I could do the cowboy thing, ignore legal advice or requests from in-country management and change the filters to work however I think they should

You should have done that! And don't forget Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea while you are at it. People from Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea and Germany are free not to use flickR. Let the countries handle their censorship business for themselfs if they want it, don't do it for them.

If you really believe this stupid nonsense, that your employees are in some danger over here, put them on paid leave.

Donald
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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thodue says:

I apologize: chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)
that means in other words you tried to hide the flickr/yahoo-censorship with the launch of the other language features at the same time. hard to believe, but the time schedule and the apology are cristall clear.
party at the front door and restrictions at the posterns. to me its not flickr at all, i think it's the yahoo hand.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Marcel Winatschek says:

And why do you put Germany, Austria and Switzerland in one pot? These are DIFFERENT countries btw.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Martin Q says:

I apologize: chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)

OK, we need to cut Stewart some slack on this one. Clearly what he means here is that they were hoping that they would be implementing a different solution and that therefore no announcement would be necessary. I don't think we can seriously accuse him of being evasive based on that statement.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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manganite says:

@Stewart:

"But what I want are good long term solutions -"

But why haven't you looked for a solution before you initiated all this? Are you really surprised about what happened the last days?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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David Jackmanson says:

Stewart's post says nothing except "You have to trust me".

No real information, no addressing of the point - made hundreds of times, including by the head of a German child-protection agency - that these filters are far more restrictive than legally required.

Oh, and "We hoped you wouldn't notice".

At least the people in Germany speak up for themselves. Yahoo!'s Flickr would probably prefer them to act like the other people they have censored in Singapore, Hong Kong and (South?) Korea.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

OK, we need to cut Stewart some slack on this one. Clearly what he means here is that they were hoping that they would be implementing a different solution and that therefore no announcement would be necessary. I don't think we can seriously accuse him of being evasive based on that statement.

well, ok, he has now appologized for what happened, but even if their different solution was the current one, they should have announced it clearly, not burry it in the FAQ and mix it with localization until people figure out.

remember, those blockings affect not only the people who cannot see the blocked photos, but also everyone who has blocked photos as well as.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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foodfreak.de says:

I apologize: chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)

that is: we thought we could get away with it. Thanks for pointing this out so clearly.

and since you were discussing this with German lawyers they must have told you announcing this would imply a Sonderkündigungsrecht (extraordinary right of cancellation of contract) and giving people back their money. Makes me wonder why it was decided to rather not communicate this...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Jaboney says:

How about holding off until Stewart's coming post? I'm sure it won't be days away.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

@Jaboney: but maybe some of the long hours they use (SCNR)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Saint Fnordius says:

Stewart, I accept your apology here, but am still tentative. I suspect your legal staff in Germany has given you some bad advice, and I seriously think you need to address this issue either with a mail to all DACH members (DACH being a common abbreviation for Germany [D], Austria [A] and Switzerland[CH]) explaining the current situation with filters and your desire to resolve the situation.

After all, it has been pointed out that this affects not only Germans, but also Austrians and Swiss members as well.

As a gesture of goodwill, I have halted my migration away from flickr for now. If flickr manages to solve this to my satisfaction, then I will again consider a pro membership.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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andre.vanrooyen says:

@ walljet

If someone deleted a photo like that from my stream, I'd probably buy him a beer. That is disgusting!

Of course, I'm not you and I do respect that you may like stuff like this in your stream, but then there's also the TOS to contend with. Whichever way you cut it, flickr was never intended for a picture like that!

[edit spelling]
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
andre.vanrooyen edited this topic 83 months ago.

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iansand says:

I'm sorry, Stewart. The Viking funeral appears to be the only viable option now.

It was nice knowing you.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Blocked because I had questions about censorship says:

@ Stewart


Feffef wrote:

@Stewart:
Since you seem to be starting to answer the questions that really bother us now, please try to answer this one as well:

What's the reason for that tags like "thinkflickrthink", "censorship" or "againstcensorship" no longer appear as "popular tags of the week". Less popular tags about this issue (like "zensur20") still make it to that list.

And if this hasn't got technical reasons, please explain why you decided to "hide" (do avoid using the c-word) them there. Of course even more interesting would be _who's in charge of such decisions_. (you personally, other flickr staff or yahoo), but I guess you can't or won't tell us that.


I have the same questions.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Blocked because I had questions about censorship edited this topic 83 months ago.

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ipernity.com/home/robert_k says:

"... chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)"

WTF?!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Brenda Anderson says:

"... chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)"

I took this to mean that they were hoping they wouldn't have to announce it because they weren't going to have to do it... not that they were hoping they wouldn't have to announce it because they hoped it would go unnoticed.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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ulaB [unable to see restricted pictures] says:

@dhania: I'm not sure if it was meant this way - I thought it meant "We were hoping we weren't going to have to enable the filters at all".

Stewarts last message looks a little like someone sued or tried to sue Flickr. Or what might be the reason for a "legal command".

Anyway - @Flickr staff: It's nice to hear from you again. I surely don't want to be in your shoes...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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andre.vanrooyen says:

Yes, Brenda, I got that too...:)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

@ulaB: I'm actually puzzled by that to: either it was the result of some legal case, i.e. a legal command issued by a court, or it was (my interpretation), a legal command from the legal dept of yahoo.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro says:

and i'm still confused... why didn't you wait for the korean localization to block the koreans? in all logic...

oh wait, you did :)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Flickr Staff

Stewart says:

I'm assuming there must be some kind of language barrier here. Of course, I meant, as Martin Q pointed out above, that there would be nothing to announce. And loupitiote, it would have been better to have moderate on this whole time - totally agree; that's (part of) why there was some much debate and discussion internally.

Re Switzerland and Austria not being part of Germany: I'm well aware of that (have been to all three countries) and so are the people in Munich, and the international team, etc. Austrians and Swiss are free to regsister on Yahoo! Germany or elsewhere. Unfortunately, my next post is going to have to wait till tomorrow - it's after 4am here and I have to be up in a few hours.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dominik Schwind says:

Stewart Then sleep well. We'll be here tomorrow, too, no worries, mate. :)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fukami says:

Actually I find it very unpleasant that a German issue is discussed in an English speaking forum, where most people have some sort of handicap (the German forum is just a bad joke).

Flickr was the only web service I was paying for. And I brought a couple of users to the platform which also got paid members. I won't close my account right now (I still have one year subscription left). But after this year I will quit both, Flickr and Del.icio.us. I cannot trust Yahoo (and so I cannot trust Flickr): Actions against Chinese dissidents or the funny way of handling perceived legal problems in Germany - every single step in these desasters were bad and getting more and more bad.

Maybe it was not really about censorship in the beginning, but now you guys are *really* starting to make mistakes.

Flickr has been loved by its users so much - and I loved it, too.

R.I.P. Flickr.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
fukami edited this topic 83 months ago.

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myfear says:

Stewart I am very pleased by all of your above words. Even if it does not change the situation. But, speaking for myself, there is still confidence that this will come to a happy end. Have a good night and some perfect ideas :-D
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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guido_south_germany says:

sleep well and hoppyfull you dream what can make better ;)
oh stewart the "trust" is loss i am so sorry for you and the staff
after this it s no more the same flickr
thats the thing that make me sad and sick
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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ipernity.com/home/robert_k says:

At some point before the launch of the German and other local versions it was clear that the launch would include serious restrictions in those countries.

I just cannot believe that at that very moment it didn't cross anybody's mind at Yahoo/Flickr what the consequences were going to be.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

fukami
Flickr was the only web service I was paying for.
That is true for me, too. Maybe I have to rethink for what I am paying and when. I've always been very conservative about paying for online-services and seems as if I have to get back to this again ...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Raphs says:

@ Stewart


Feffef wrote:

@Stewart:
Since you seem to be starting to answer the questions that really bother us now, please try to answer this one as well:

What's the reason for that tags like "thinkflickrthink", "censorship" or "againstcensorship" no longer appear as "popular tags of the week". Less popular tags about this issue (like "zensur20") still make it to that list.

And if this hasn't got technical reasons, please explain why you decided to "hide" (do avoid using the c-word) them there. Of course even more interesting would be _who's in charge of such decisions_. (you personally, other flickr staff or yahoo), but I guess you can't or won't tell us that.



I have the same question, too!

Also if you don't want to call the whole blocking of restricted/moderate pictures as censorship, THIS definitely would be censorship!
And there can't be any kind of explanation for that as you gave it for the disappearing of the anti-censorship-stuff from explore (I kind of accepted that)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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iansand says:

It can be the same flickr if the people of flickr (us) decide it can be.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Marcel Winatschek says:

I cannot trust Yahoo (and so I cannot trust Flickr): Actions against Chinese dissidents or the funny way of handling perceived legal problems in Germany - every single step in these desasters were bad and getting more and more bad.

Just wanted to highlight this again.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

iansand: not if there are incidents that amount to a switch from "we (all flickr users) are welcome here, and we pay for it because we have to share the costs" to "this is a corporate playground, please get a ticket and enjoy the ride".
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 says:

@fukami: Indeed.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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arndalarm says:

Oh great. More useless bla bla with no sense and meaning at all, explaining nothing and not excusing anything. We are still at the start of the discussion that started one week ago and just haven't moved yet.

One further step for me towards ipernity. Thnks for that Stewart.

Btw.: try to become a politician, saying nothing with many nice sounding words is highly appreciated in that profession (but not among flickies)...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Lars Pohlmann says:

@stewart: it's after 4am here and I have to be up in a few hours.

i believe, no matter what we think about flickrs past actions, we have to honor, that stewart obviously loses some sleep over this topic.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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ipernity.com/home/robert_k says:

"It can be the same flickr if the people of flickr (us) decide it can be."

But people don't want to decide that. We don't trust Yahoo/Flickr anymore. Too many incidents in a short period.

That's the reason why so many people [also the non-rebellious quiet ones] have already left. In the past people just said they were going to leave, but stayed anyway [because they decided they wanted to have the Flickr they love].

Now, they actually do leave.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Kiezkicker.ipernity.com says:

Was it wondering if I feeled "blabla"d again? I mean - what´s the point? It´s "around doctors at the consequences" (herumdoktern an den Folgen", sorry, couldn´t translate it so I translated it by google but flickr speaks such a german, too so it might be OK, LOL)

I´ve just waiting till 13th August, 2007.... would be quite enough time to migrate, thanks to inform me quite in time about your mistake. :-) flickr doesn´t want me again as a pro-member. I haven´t a creditcard. And that´s not an unusually behavior in Germany. Think, flickr, think.....
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Kiezkicker.ipernity.com edited this topic 83 months ago.

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*Stiletto* says:

fukami:
"Actually I find it very unpleasant that a German issue is discussed in an English speaking forum, where most people have some sort of handicap (the German forum is just a bad joke)."


I understand what you are saying and I am sorry you feel this way but there is a flip side. I don't speak a word of German but have been following this (and other threads) avidly. I am not directly affected by the restrictions, but I am very much affected. My friends are affected. People are leaving. Our protests are marginalised. I am affected, I want to keep informed and involved. I hope this goes a little way to making it a bit less unpleasant for you.

On a different note, I am also very keen to read the answer to Feffef's question (above).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Stewart says:

Hot tags in the last week covers the last week (7 days) and looks for spikes in the usage of specific tags relative to previous weeks. Presumably, people started using those tags in large numbers 8 or more days ago, so ... they aren't hot this week (whereas whatever other tags you're looking at gained popularity a day or two later and will fall out tomorrow or the next day). You could probably check the dates and volumes pretty easily using advanced search (but not *that* accurately since people add tags to older images as well).

[Since I had to type that on a pda to avoid waking the sleeping person next to me, it really is time for bed.]
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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greynine.ipernity.com says:

Hi!
[I'm new to this discussion-thread. Haven't read the whole thread, just staff postings.]

Finally there's a solution. That's Good. Very Good. (but not final. see below.)
Noticing the number of posts in this new thread I guess there are still some complaining. ;-) But I'm afraid this posting has to be counted as complainment as well. Sorry 'bout that.

Nontheless I wan't to list a few points which IMHO at least should be taken into consideration for a concluding solution. Being aware that they have been mentioned multiple times in various discussions I'll try keeping as brief as possible.

1) Due to cultural issues (and/or local laws) I think the current filter system based on a safe/moderate/restricted classification isn't going to work out in the end. I think a filtering on a content descriptive flagging (dressed lightly, nudity, sexual, NS-related, ...) may be the only way (at least the only I can now think of) that will work world wide.

2) A proper age verification system still has to be implemented. Should be required world wide, isn't it?

3) There has to be found another way of determinig or verifying the geographical origin of a flickr-user than the Yahoo!-Server he registered on. Beeing an Austrian I do not see why I have to "suffer" the limitations through german law. Yes, I could go with the "yahoo.com-workaround", but exactly this workaround makes the whole thing useless in the first place. Because so could every German - so what is it good for?

I think there was another point as well but I lost it. ;-)


Concluding I want to thank Stewart and the whole flickr-staff for the effort and time they spent on finding and implementing this first solution for this issue. I appreciate that and I'm sorry about all the hostilities you had to take.

[edited for removing duplicate words from a sentence]
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
greynine.ipernity.com edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Marcel Winatschek says:

Sleep well, Stewart. See you tommorow.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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urb256 says:

And the other question: How does it come, that there is NO protest-photo (picture with a little text or so; not painting, or whatever) in the interestingness anymore?
You said, all non-pictures have been removed -- but there are a lot of protest-photos ... being afraight of the protest gaining an even bigger audience?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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fukami says:

@stiletto: Very good point indeed!

@Stewart: Once you start to build an excellent service with a strong and loyal community. I can imagine how it hurts to see all your good work going overboard inbetween days. I feel really sorry you (no joke!).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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*Stiletto* says:

Stewart:
"So, I'm sorry for all the extra annoyance and confusion caused by the small amounts of communication. And I'm more sorry for those people who feel like "their" Flickr was harmed/destroyed/disappeated etc. in the last week. On that last topic, I'm writing another post now."

I'm looking for that post Stewart mentions but can't seem to find it. I am very interested to read his views on this topic.

Pointers in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dominik Schwind says:

St Iletto [ Against Censorship ] He said he'll post it tomorrow.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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HamburgCam says:

Quote:"Having said that there were a few things that we did (and myself specifically) that were totally wrong and for which I apologize"

@Steward
This was what a lot of us wanted to hear. Cold statements are OK in a 10K statement, but in order to calm this whole thing down, it is good if all sides try to understand each others point in good, and respectful communication. (I know it was lacking in these forums due to the "no info policy" from the user side, too)

Good night, and we are looking forward to more info and solutions concerning this issue.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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*Stiletto* says:

Dominik Schwind - I see, thank you.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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MikeSchneider says:

First of all: Thanks to the Flickr staff for talking to us! That really helps and makes it easier. Reading between the lines, Stewart basically says that the German division was the one telling them what to do. If that's so, I suggest we all directly contact Y! Germany and ask them what the f*** they were thinking. These idiots are hiding (or maybe running around naked in the English Garden in Munich :-), while the Flickr staff takes the sh** here. So time to shift focus and get the pitchforks out in Munich, I guess... :-)

BTW, since so many moved over to ipernity, I decided to open an account there too and keep it as a copy of my Flickr account. Did anybody find a good tool to do the copying? Their Greesemonkey script works, but it's a pain to do one picture at a time.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

MikeSchneider don't blame Munich :-D Ist eine sehr schöne Stadt :)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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hannes.trapp says:

flickr still didn't get it - it's not about censorship level - it's about censorship at all. Germans don't want to be censored - there is NO content on flickr which is forbidden in germany - expect for the swastika, wich is forbidden in germany indeed, and which every german 5 year old kid can see on flickr. But censorship in germany is forbidden by law. Images which are forbidden in germany are forbidden on flickr, too - or do you allow child porn in america or on flickr? Furthermore we have strong rules about "Jugendschutz" (legal protection for children and young persons) in germany, and the restriction "images you wouldn't show to you mum" doesn't meet the requirements at all. The filters mostly filter nudeness, which is allowed here. (heise link) But maybe we should all sue flickr for showing the swastika in germany, which is be fined by up to 5 years jail...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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MikeSchneider says:

@myfear: I don't blame Munich at all! I love it. I blame Y!.de in Munich.

BTW, I guess Petra Loibl is our contact person (according to de.docs.yahoo.com/pr/contact.html) for a discussion on this issue.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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LarsT says:

@Stewart: be honest about it, you are still censoring, and you're still denying us the full flickr experience. In case of germany, you force censorship upon us for nothing, and you already know that. I really don't get it, your explanation on that topic is obviously ridiculous (see the statements by jugendschutz.net for example).

No one cares about naked breasts here. Instead, nazi symbols are strictly forbidden and breaking that particular law here is usually being pursued, now what will you do about that? Censoring these as well using an automatic filter that also kills all subversive art containing such a symbol (a thing that was just recently allowed again by the highest court in germany after a violent public outcry because such art was forbidden by a minor court before)? There's no practical solution to this for now, and you know that as well as at least the higher german courts.

Now I'm tired about complaining, either I'll get my censorship-free experience and an open community back, or I'll be gone off to one of the plenty alternatives, preferably one where more pissed-off flickr users are migrating to. that way I'll be in good freedom-loving company. I'd rather stay, though, but only in case you change your policy thoroughly (is that possible even if you belong to the infamous Yahoo! enterprise?).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Lars Pohlmann says:

@hannes: obviously it's about different things for different persons... ;-)

edit to clarify: with different i don't mean community/staff, but you/me. as it is more about the lack of communication for me...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Lars Pohlmann edited this topic 83 months ago.

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LarsT says:

@Stewart: let me be cynic and evil for once: renamig the topic, eliminating the evil word censorship, is an own issue as well. Corporate identity newspeak idiot marketing whore douche bags you are, flickr, screw you guys!!

;)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 says:

@LarsT: Though indeed "evil", you got that right... In some situations, I think people prefer to make use of the word "filter" (associated with "good" things) rather than "censorship" (which still most of the people fortunately consider a bad thing). I wonder whether this might even be a case for EFF, even though a small one (but possibly not considering events that could come, including filtering of "other" content - political things in China i.e.)...

sorry, couldn't resist:






Join the Blue Ribbon Online Free Speech Campaign!

Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Jaboney says:

I deeply dislike ultimatums. So much so, that on principle, I choose an option other than that demanded when given one.

I believe in working to make things better.
Also, in knowing when to walk when you can't.
I haven't yet hit the point at which I walk.

I am more than ready to invest my time and energy in creating a better photo site: be it here, or elsewhere, largely depends on the attitude and stance staff decides to take towards us (are we customers, or content providers and collaborators).

All that aside. For those of you who have reached the breaking point and are ready to leave, a suggestion on tactics.

Download all your photos, but don't delete them.
Set all of your photos to private.
Continue to shoot creative, excellent protest photos, and publicly post those.
Shoot photos that indicate where you've gone, what it'll take to draw you back, and publicly post those.
When people comment, respond on your other site: draw traffic elsewhere.

Carrot, stick; stick, carrot.
This is all useless, senseless, needless.

But for the most part, the ball is in flickr's court.
It's their site (not ours).
Their rules.
You can, however, play by different rules.

I hope we all end up on the same side, playing together again.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Blocked because I had questions about censorship says:

@ Dominik Schwind

Are you Stewarts secretary or servant?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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eagle2effi says:

Some of my friends are still,completely anreachable.

I can´t believe that they have only restricted shots.

I would be a help to know who´s recent uploaded shots are not seen.

The gaps are still between 90 and 5 % for each site!

hanks staff lords
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Blocked because I had questions about censorship says:

@ Mike Schneider

Ipernity announced a tool to copy them all together.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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he-sk says:

I don't have time to read the replies in this thread now, but I want to add my 2 cents.

No apology for the initial act of censorship.
No apology for the miscommunication and no explanation for it either.
No apology for changing the TOS and still no offer for a refund for German users, AS REQUIRED BY LAW.
According to statements from Jugendschutz.net, the "solution" is still overboard and not required by German law.

Stewart, this isn't good enough. You can and should do better than that!

Edit: Somewhere in this thread, Stewart apologized for not anouncing the change beforehand (but offers nothing to make amends!) and for the miscommunication (blames it on a legal command, by whom?). The rest of my post still stands.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
he-sk edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Dominik Schwind says:

ipernity.com/home/lichtundschatten Not that I'm aware of. Just happened to be around and there were questions that I was able to answer.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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!Shot by Scott! says:

the largest German Media Giants are having a good laugh at flickr 's understanding of German law.

www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,489837,00.html

ill translate it latter
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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teezeh says:

Let's get things straight: flickr's (or rather Yahoo!'s) actions and arguments are both disillusioning and irreproducable.

It's not the users' fault that Yahoo! is unable to provide a working age verification mechanism.

I want my old and unrestricted flickr back, and I want an excuse.

Hurry up, guys, before it's too late!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
teezeh edited this topic 83 months ago.

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tillwe says:

@teezeh: you got an apology (i.e., an excuse). And if flickr sincerly believes that it is not possible to operate in Germany the old way, then what I want is not "my old flickr back", but a sensible way for them to handle that. I guess that will result in a sort of age verification for access to restriced pics. The switch from moderated+restricted to restriced in the hard-wired filtering is a first step in the right direction. It's too slow, there is too much corporate language and thinking around, etc., etc -- but it's better than the non-communication we had for a week. I don't think at this point stating the obvious and try to threaten or loudly demand something helps. If I read the statements right, the Flickr staff is as annoyed as we are that they had to do this (or that someone thought they had to do this, and forced them to do it, and not to speak about it) as we (or some of us ...) are.

In this situation, I see two options:

Option A: Exit -- choose another service, e.g. ipernity. Maybe demand your money back from Flickr (Sonderkündigungsrecht). Make sure it's visible, that you go. But choosing exit also means: you're not a stakeholder (as opposed to shareholder) of Flickr anymore. Don't act like one.

Option B: Make flickr a better place: that is, do everything that helps the Flickr people to act in a way that will result in a better platform. Maybe protesting with Y! Germany could be a way to do this. And to argue in a civilized and very, very patient way.

Is there a third one?

(Edit: typo, wrong double negative)
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
tillwe edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Jaboney says:

I suggested a third just up the page.

I much prefer Option B, but the degree to which we're permitted to play a constructive role is in the hands of staff.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Jaboney edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Rippie: Contra Censura! says:

i have two minutes.

stewart, you are welcome.

welcome for my never mentioning the name of the group or actively canvassing here for members. you are welcome for my BEGGING them restrain themselves and vouching for your personal convictions on matters of censorship as you've made claims to in past. and for trying indicate exactly what you have: that you are in a bind, cannot provide great details and got squeezed into this position under orders.

you're welcome for me not attacking you personally and for trying to keep others from doing likewise without actually censoring them.

none of us, not one, WANTS to be dealing with situation, and as you made clear, would have hoped it never happened.

i am strongly feeling that i have given you far too much benefit of the doubt. and that others were more realistic in their assessments of your motives and actions.

some of the staff are being polite and clearly show concern and even anguish over being unable to tell us much of anything. not all of it, just some idea of what the problems are.

then you pipe in unapologetically and swinging.

i'm thinking that even if this is all fixed and shiny with a spiffy new wax job, even those totatlly unaffected by what happened coming across this situation here in flickr and in the growing outside medai coverage will take away a very bad sense of how it is here. and i cannot even imagine the damage to future membership: how many people have joined and then left immediately in all of this? how many will just avoid it by never joining?

all ANY of us want is a better, "equally accessible within the law(s)" flickr. i had always thought you were one of those people. was i wrong?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Rippie: Contra Censura! edited this topic 83 months ago.

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he-sk says:

One more thing: To lump every protester in with the few that were abusive is insulting and, at this stage, I feel is done on purpose to further marginalize the protest.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Lars Pohlmann says:

@tillwe: If I read the statements right, the Flickr staff is as annoyed that they had to do this

that's exactly my feeling. and now that staff is showing up again, and finally begins to sound like human beings and not like some faceless corporation, i'm willing to wait more patiently than before for whatever is going to happen.

i'm officially not pissed anymore, but still a bit unhappy about the situation.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

@Jaboney: for me, that sounds like option A.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe says:

BTW: www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,489827,00.html is a Spiegel story to a related topic -- Google trying to maintain it's "do no evil" image (German language only).
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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Jaboney says:

Option A renders you null.

My suggestion maintains a presence--albeit a small one--and ability to push for improvements.

flickr runs on clicks. Hide your photos, save for protest photos, and you deny them 95% of the clicks they would have gain from your photos. The remaining 5% will stir the pot.

Let your Pro account lapse: you won't be needing it. With a free account, you can post all the protest photos you want. Co-ordinate with others: on the 1st of each month, EVERYONE can burn through their monthly bandwidth allotment, then disappear. Or stick to the forums. Deny flickr clicks; deny flickr peace.

10,000 people walking away won't matter much.
10,000 people regularly posting beautiful, creative, intelligent protest photos, AND pointing photo browsing traffic elsewhere... that's an unending problem.

At this point, staff likely WANTS the noisy rabble to leave.
Don't.
If you want to boycott, do so effectively.
Don't just walk; stand in their way.

*** Or flickr could decide to enter into a more meaningful collaboration with it's content providers.
*** More likely, this kind of constructive criticism and advocacy will get me banned. No big deal for flickr: I'm a piss-poor photographer with a grand total of 10,000 views.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
Jaboney edited this topic 83 months ago.

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derlinzer says:

I apologize: chief among them was not announcing this in advance (we were hoping we weren't going to have to)


Stewart, how dumb do you think we are? I already think it was a bug in Flickr, that we were able to see the thumbnails for photos we were prohibited to see. Did you really think, you could have pulled this stunt unnoticed?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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occ4m says:

It is not a solution as long as flickr is making the decision for us. It is our choice, not yours.

i wish you would choose the legal way around the law, but i am sure that your legal team will not tell you where this way is.

Hint: It was no problem before the local versions, right?

Note: There is not Age-Verify Solutions in Germany that protects your privacy. You would always have to expose your Identity. So it would be a option for pro-users only?

Good Luck flickr :-(
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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dalmet says:

Stewart,

one week and you're still ignoring the fact that you are treating not Germans but German speaking people like small children, no matter under what legislation they live.

You said you're looking for a good long-term solution? Well, refund my six months of Pro account fees, delete all my data and we call it quits, ok?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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derlinzer says:

Well, refund my six months of Pro account fees, delete all my data and we call it quits, ok?


Right, where are answers to often asked for refunds? If you believe you have to comply to our (wrong interpreted) laws, then do us a favor and interpret at least consumer rights right...
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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TinyTitian says:

The Rock and the Hard Place....sometimes I wonder if its more like Upper Management and Lawyers. I could analysis your comments to death and find dozen of things to argue about, but that is like beating a dead horse.

Regardless Stewart I know where you are coming from. I admit I do not like what has happen, but I understand. Please get some rest, the battle is done but the war goes on.

I do not know if this is correct, but Singapore is the next loudest voice from my understanding. Could you kindly have your people reevaluate the filters for Singapore as well?

Yours Sincerely
TT

The only Constant is change, whether its good or bad is entire up to us.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )
TinyTitian edited this topic 83 months ago.

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Walljet says:

Stewart. Stewart. Stewart.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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illtillwillkillbill says:

@Stewart: I paid for my account, isn't that verfication enough? What is the problem there.

And please, can you cite your sources for those very high standards set by German law?
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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greynine.ipernity.com says:

@illtillwillkillbill: "This is just not going to happen."
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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schmerles says:

Bullshit, Herr Stewart. Meanwhile i feel sheepish about my pro.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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he-sk says:

Jabonay says:

If you want to boycott, do so effectively.
Don't just walk; stand in their way.

Seconded!
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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illtillwillkillbill says:

@greynine: Sorry, I wasn't talking about emails from Yahoo!-lawyers to Flickr corp. HQ. I am referring directly to the so-called high standards he mentioned in his post. Last time I check, the German law was not under NDA and publicly available (even on this Internet).

So you can very well cite sources.
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

TinyTitian I am not shure, if
the battle is done [..]
We are just resting a bit ....
Posted 83 months ago. ( permalink )

This thread was closed automatically due to a lack of responses over the last month.

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