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[locked, redirected] flickr now censoring all moderate and restricted photos from Germany

myfear says:

Follow up for the discussion started in
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/35971/page6/

You are welcome to say anything about this.

(edit: link not working)

-------------------

Official fresh start (a new topic)

Older updates from staff:
fifth · fourth · third · second · first
Posted at 11:29PM, 12 June 2007 PST ( permalink )
George (staff) edited this topic ages ago.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 49 50
(601 to 700 of 4,960 replies in [locked, redirected] flickr now censoring all moderate and restricted photos from Germany)
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velover says:

Golem.de berichtet nun auch darüber:

www.golem.de/0706/52871.html
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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pete_pick says:

everywhere i went in the world there was always a naked german lying on a rock. no chance of censoring them, i suppose?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Walwyn PRO says:

Walwyn, why don't you re-read Dunstan's comments, that is if Flickr isn't so scared of them that they delete yet another of my comments.

What and have you disseminate my surfing on whoreker? BTW Is it still up?

please don't feed the troll! and stay on topic.

This needs to get resolved by Yahoo! and the German regulators. No one is going to go into details about those discussions on a public web forum, whilst the discussions are ongoing.

They made a decision as to whether to roll out a German translation and comply with German law, or to not roll out the German translation. No doubt they're working on what needs to be done to make the site German law friendly. All the rage and blogging isn't going to speed up that situation.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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pete_pick says:

no but it MAY make them feel they should support free expression rather than censorship. protest is not just hot air (we hope). because this may adversely affect profits.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Yves. says:

I am German, but I feel like - Chemikal X - about censorship anywhere in the world and this is what makes me quite angry too.

To bring a personal note, I think a "pornographisation" of our society didn't bring anything good. And if there would be something coming from politics and other spheres of our society concerning this that point to that problem and help to think about it, for me the case might be different. But this here is just pure censorship without a doubt.

Yes, of course flickr should give a real statement about the reasons. The reason must be about money, in other cases they could make a statement, but they can't say "yahoo payed us to take this direction" or stuff like that.

Still, I think they should be given some time!
It just seems not possible to solve something like this, where probably more factors seem to play in the background, in such a (quite) short period of time. And an important decision is always be made just more difficult under pressure... even if it might help at times.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Yves. edited this topic ages ago.

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außerirdische sind gesund says:

Why is there no sensible, official statement by flickr staff yet?

Is preparing launch parties more important than taking care of a community that is clearly offended in Germany?

Why was this not discussed in the open beforehand?

I have seen no other German web plattform that has similar ridiculous limits to content.

Nicht mit sooperkuh!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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stockwerk23 says:

This is definitely Flickrs "shot-in-the-knee-day"...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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iansand PRO says:

sooperkuh It may be that an announcement would prejudice negotiations with the German authorities. Those negotiations may resolve the problem, which is surely the desired outcome. Much more important than the current auction of outrage.

*Wanders off expecting to be completely ignored. Again.*
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Walwyn PRO says:

Why is there no sensible, official statement by flickr staff yet?
flickr.com/help/forum/42597/page5/#reply227666

Despite what other have said although the post doesn't give you chapter and verse it is clear and informative about what is happening.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Al Fed PRO says:

How funny - Germany being censored just like Singapore, Korea and China??!!

flickr, are you guys sure you didn't mess up a little with all those countries? Who told you Germany needed censoring?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Scy83 says:

Sorry. If Digg can face the MPAA, Yahoo can face Germany. It's not like we'd be banning sites like China does (yet).

This sentence I've read on Digg sums it up quite well: Have you seen the porn that comes out of Germany...and they're censoring THIS? LOL.

You can host nearly every perversity you want in Germany (the stuff you can't is banned in lots of other countries as well), if you do proper age verification, which Flickr already does. So they're not legally required, they're just lazy.

But hey, Digg chose freedom of speech over cowardness and still exists, let's see when Flickr dies if they continue that way.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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joshposh says:

I pay for a flickr account to let Yahoo decide what I am allowed to see? Never ever...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

iansand. Firstly, that is only sensible if there was some takedown notice or whatever. Nothing about this is know, but it seems really strange. The second point: even if they are talking with the German government (which would be a strange way to solve such a problem here), why shouldn't Flickr say "Sorry, we can't say more, there was a takedown notice, we are activly negotiating a solution" or the like?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

Walwyn: but it doesn't explain anything
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

i think flickr's problem right now is with yahoo HQ (headquarters), not with the german government. it's yahoo HQ that decided to self-censore and hide adult-oriented content from some parts of the world, including germany.

it's a serious problem because flickr now belongs to yahoo, but yahoo apparently does not understand that flickr is very much community-oriented. the cultures in both companies are very different. and yahoo apparently has little understanding that flickr users can be quite vocal and cause some real bad press when they are treated like if they were kids.

when flickr (i.e. yahoo) tells their *paying* german customers what they are allowed and not allowed to see on flickr, those customers don't like it, understandably.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Spiritus Negator PRO says:

I have just emailed several lawmakers (Members of Parliament) here in Germany, asking them to have a look at this whole issue, and at least to inform me about possible legal obligations and requirements that are binding for Yahoo/Flickr. I doubt there are such, but I'll wait for a response.

Meanwhile, I'll encourage all fellow Germans to write to their congressmen at Deutsche Bundestag (German Parliament). Search for the members of the proper Committee for Culture and Media (Ausschuß für Kultur und Medien), or the representative of your constituency, and just ask them whether they could enlighten you about legal obligations in general and this case in particular.

And as for Flickr staff: your whole handling of this matter is not appropriate and utterly disgusting. You're doing a bad job altogether!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Spiritus Negator edited this topic ages ago.

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tillwe PRO says:

So we should ask Yahoo HQ/Yahoo Germany what this is about -- I just did this. Maybe others should do so, too.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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iansand PRO says:

tillwe Unless a takedown notice has been foreshadowed.

I come from a professional environment where negotiations with regulators are common. If I am doing something that I know will interest regulators (and I am talking about the stock exchange and corporate regulator) I almost invariably approach them before I take a potentially controversial step. I find that, generally, potential issues can be resolved before anyone takes an irrevocable step. It saves time, money and angst. The approaches are not secret - everyone does it - but they are almost universally on the mutual expectation , or explicit basis, of complete confidentiality.

Perhaps my experience is colouring my response to this issue.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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QBX says:

Against censorship!

for anyone who is interested - just found an interesting comment in the heise-forum of how to undergo the censorship:


Allen Flickr-Usern steht es frei, einen anderen Yahoo-Account mit
seinem Flickr-Account zu verknüpfen.

Einfach auf yahoo.com gehen eventuell ausloggen (oben rechts),
und dann (neu) anmelden (ebenfalls oben rechts) und die Daten
ausfüllen, ein Geburtsjahr angeben, das dahingehend mündet, dass
jemand, der zu diesem Zeitpunkt geboren ist, heute über 21 Jahre alt
ist. Bei „ZIP/Postal code“ einfach irgendeine US-Postleitzahl
eingeben, zum Beispiel 07093 für West-New-York.

Bei Flickr dann „You -> Your account“, runterscrollen zu „Your Yahoo!
account“ und dort auf „Use a different Yahoo! ID for this Flickr
account“ klicken, und dann den extrem einfach gehaltenen und deutlich
nachvollziehbaren Anweisungen folgen, und den neuen Account
verknüpfen.


original link here
www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

all the hints seems to indicate that yahoo HQ's self-censoring in some countries is just a preventive measure to reduce the risk of some hypothetical future legal action against them.

yahoo users (both in those countries and everywhere else) are the loosers, while yahoo corporate think they win (but will probably loose a lot in bad press, like if they need that now).
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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kr428 PRO says:

Just to add my $0.02 to that to also voice my opinion: I am German and having a pro account which I (until yesterday) thought about keeping for as long as I somehow can afford... but by now I think I'm not that sure anymore.

I do not need anyone telling me what's "safe" and what is not. I have only recently (in my contacts list) seen a vast bunch of pictures that obviously were caught in the "safe" filter for no anyhow obvious reason. I wrote about this outside flickr, and I will do here as well:

I always enjoyed (loved?) flickr for being an open, inspiring, creative community. This "community" by now surely has shown its darkest, most "inhuman" side by restricting this "creativity", by doing obvious and open censorship in an incredibly blatant way. And I do not see no real explanation for that. I see the "digg" example talking about freedom-of-speech an important and meaningful approach, and flickr should be same way. If flickr doesn't, it ends up being the "global community of creative individuals" and starts being just another semi-commercial photo sharing service that doesn't really care about its users as soon as they just are around, signed up and possibly paid.

I really hope that flickr will come out of this. My pro account was a birthday gift by my sister, and this way she did something to me I should have done way earlier, I thought... I will keep my pro if flickr just simply stops doing censorship and also provides German users with a way of disabling Safe search. Otherwise I won't.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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iansand PRO says:

What are those hints loupiote ? I have seen none.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
iansand edited this topic ages ago.

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tillwe PRO says:

iansand -- I understand this, but if that was the case (which I still doubt), then I would do either the negotiations before I switch on filtering, or I would prepare some press statement ("temporary blablablab") in expectation of the anger such a step will create. I'm a German, and while I don't know much about the inside of business-politics relationships, I know a bit about they way our government and our politics work. And that knowledge makes it highly unklikely for me that Flickr/Yahoo talked with anyone before doing this.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx says:

Again, for all the stupid people living on the other side of the globe and just too ignorant to deal with the german justice system:

Article 5

[Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

(3) Art and scholarship, research, and teaching shall be free. The freedom of teaching shall not release any person from allegiance to the constitution


www.bundestag.de/htdocs_e/parliament/function/legal/germa...

What is there not to understand? The government can't censor, other bodies of the state can do something with can come down to censorship. But then you can challenge that decision in court. The government has nothing to say in that matter.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx edited this topic ages ago.

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Erling Steen says:

Whats going on in Germany?... the little inexperienced boy, standing next to me, keeps asking!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@QBX

yes, this is known workaround. but the yahoo TOS allows them to cancel your account and delete all your photos if you create an account with incorrect information, including the country where you live. it's a big risk to take if you have a lot of photos and a pro account.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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iansand PRO says:

tillwe Or, as Stewart has said, they agonised about rolling out German localisation and decided to do so, regardless of larger issues.

t-mix The government has to make a decision before it can be challenged. I know nothing of Germany, but have never found a legal system where pre-emptive resolution is more expensive and less effective than litigation.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Stewart PRO says:

[We've deleted a long string of off-topic comments from Thomas Hawk and a few responses by other people which didn't make sense without the context. This is an important issue and we want to keep the thread on topic. If you're interested in Thomas, you can check his blog at thomashawk.com/ and his photo sharing site at zooomr.com. Future comments that wander off the issue at hand will also be removed.]
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Stewart PRO says:

Unfortunately I can't give a more detailed update yet or any concrete good news, but please don't take our silence to mean that nothing is happening. We are doing our best to make the situation better as quickly as possible. I'm sure it doesn't make a lot of sense from the outside, and we would prefer to be able to share all the context -- believe me, this is extremely uncomfortable and we'd *strongly* prefer not to be in this position -- but we don't have a choice at this time.

Again, we will post more as soon as we can -- in the meantime, all we can do is apologize.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

Stewart Thanks for keeping track of this! And thanks for keeping the topic on track! I highly appreciate this.
We will keep watching! Good luck ..
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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_vanitY_ says:


Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx says:

The German government has *NOTHING* to say in this.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Mark Howells-Mead says:

...We are doing our best to make the situation better as quickly as possible...
...we don't have a choice at this time...

Sounds strongly as if heavier hands are controlling things at the moment. I'd imagine, from the situation, tone and subtle indications that there is a localized problem between Flickr and Yahoo! partner companies in the affected countries. There definitely seems to be a legal issue under discussion, though speculation from all of us that it relates to freedom of speech under German (or otherwise local) law is still hypothetical.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Mark Howells-Mead edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

i feel bad for Stewart... having to deal with all the angry germans on one side, and with yahoo "suits" (i.e. corporate decision-makers, lawyers and the like) on the other side. not to mention all the bad german blogo-press that really does not like what's happening.

but i can't believe that they did not anticipate that this would create such outrage. yes, flickr is often in damage-control mode.

at least the situation is much simpler with china: flickr does not have to get any heat, it's the chinese government who is doing the censoring!

i bet the reason why hong kong is also self-censored by flickr is that the chinese government is not technically capable to effectively block flickr in hong kong.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Scy83 says:

Look, Stewart, I don't know if you're having any German friends. But if you do, you should really ask them what they would think if Germany would be mentioned in the same sentence with Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, China and so on when it comes to censorship. They will most likely look at you with a "WTF?!" face. I can't grasp why it should be necessary to implement filters like these in a country as liberal as Germany.

I hope that you'll understand that we're "a bit" besides ourselves right now. In our eyes it's proactive censorship without any understandable reason.

That said, even if you manage to tell us why Flickr really needs to do this, you should still give us some "extraordinary termination" chance including a refund and data export tool, because I'm quite sure that lots and lots of people will not tolerate these limits.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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ChandimaG says:

oh stewart..wTF are you guys doing to flickr. it is supposed to be a web 2.0 resource.
sheesh man..its a sad... sad day for flickr.
and "I'm sure it doesn't make a lot of sense from the outside" - you bet man !...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
ChandimaG edited this topic ages ago.

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Julian Turner says:

What a poor explanation.

It is a really complex situation
Really? To me, it all seems very simple: I paid for a service that I can't fully use now, and I'm certainly not going to do that again.

The decision came down to the wire, but we decided to include Germany.
In censorship, yes. Flickr should know by now that this was the stupidest idea they've ever had. If this really has something to do with localisation (which I doubt), you should have ditched the German version. You won't make serious business in Germany anyway as long as you don't accept payment via EU bank transfer. Few people in Europe have credit cards.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

Hey, guys it's 3:45am in California, and Flickr team is still working on this. And I mean working!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Old Dragon says:

against censorship
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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b_o_b3015 says:

@ stewart
I hope so, because its a sad day for flickr.
Greetings from "censored" Germany
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
b_o_b3015 edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

Few people in Europe have credit cards.

actually it should be Few people in germany have credit cards. - this is true.

in most of the rest of europe, credit cards are extremely popular (e.g. carte bleue / visa in france), but in germany, it is correct that people prefer cash and checks, and that credit-cards are not widely used especially by older people. better to carry some cash euros if you want to eat on the road at night, as i found out some day.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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myfear says:

SilentObserver should not sound that hard as it might read:
We are around noon here and this is a terrible hard thing that has happened.. I guess this is no question about time ...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Old Dragon says:


Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Dominik Schwind PRO says:

SilentObserver - I feel your pain. Get some of your new German people out here and handle it - after all, they managed to spam many groups with the party announcement, they should be able to come here and handle this thread. After all, that's what community management is about, right?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

Rev Dan Catt says:

Well I'm drinking tea and following the thread (3:50am now), I'm not sure if that counts as working though. I think I may need to move onto coffee to see this through.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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geKow says:

I'm a little confused about that nearly nobody talks about the (human) rights of the people from Hong Kong, Singapore or Korea to look at the images they like to.
The basic impression I got from all these threads is a feeling like "well... maybe Yahoo has a good reason to block that countries but there can't be a reason to block germany."
Just my 2 cent

geKow (DE)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

Whoow ... more replys in 25 minutes than the whole last 24h together :)
Rev Dan Catt Coffee helps a lot :)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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guidoalexanderwaldenmeier says:

the most paidment in germany is
from one backaccount to another in german
call it -überweisung-
most peoples use this way to paid services or things from a company

and i trust the staff it must be the "horror" for this peoples
most of it have a "free spirit"

and must be real difficult for the -freak staff ;o)-to see whats going on here
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

geKow I feel sorry for them too. But the point is: I can only speek for myself. Have not even read a single statement from anybody from the other affected countries? Maybe this has to do with consumer attitude ? I am not shure ..
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

i am certainely not happy with flickr blocking "moderate" and "restricted" content from part of asia either. but this thread is more oriented to the German issue. since germany is part of EU and the blocking does not affect the rest of EU, it is really hard to make sense of it.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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geKow says:

@loupiote (Old Skool)
checks are outdated in germany, because of the euro. And credit cards become more and more popular but, that is right, they aren't as popular as in other countries.

edit: and yes, what guidoalexanderwaldenmeier said... we do a lot onlinebanking.

geKow(DE)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
geKow edited this topic ages ago.

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illtillwillkillbill PRO says:

Here, more on topic (censorship) links:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6747095.stm
yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/13/1315230
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@Aufzynden! : your post will be deleted by staff. that does not help the discussion.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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myfear says:

Aufzynden! can you please stop posting such things ...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Scy83 says:

SilentObserver: That might sound harsh now, but if you fuck up on the job, you gotta fix it. No matter what time it is. And Flickr seriously "grabbed into the loo", as Germans would say.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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tillwe PRO says:

FlickrStaff -- the last announcements sound much more sincere than the first one. I really appreciate that your working late-night to find a solution and hope there is one (I would prefer one not only for Germany, but also for the other countries involved). Maybe you can't say this, but I'm curious if it would help to direct our protest at Yahoo.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

checks are outdated in germany, because of the euro

really? in france we have checks in euro and that works just fine.

but you are right, german really like cash, and they love those large euro bills that we rarely see in france!

in france we tend to pay everything with visa (+ the pin-code -> CODE BON)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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arnd Dewald PRO says:

The thing I like best about it is that flickr worries about being censored in China on the one hand and on the other hand censors on its own in other parts of the world (no matter which country) :D
That's ridiculous.
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myfear says:

loupiote (Old Skool) they are outdates :) But I am not shure if this has something to do with the euro. I guess it happened earlier ...
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harry harris PRO says:

I think the protesting side of this is good, and could help in any negotiations by demonstrating customer concern.

But some people are getting tied into logical and emotional knots over this. I believe that Stuart, Heather and the other staff are as dismayed at the situation as we are, and are trying to get through it with a decent solution. That they can't tell us exactly what's happening indicates that they are under pressure we can only speculate about.

So please, less shooting of messengers. It will not help.
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tillwe PRO says:

loupiote: as guido did say -- mostly we use direct money transfers ("Überweisung") or even "Lastschrifteinzug", that is you allow a business to get the money you pay directly from your bank. One of the reasons amazon was successful in Germany is that they implemented Lastschrifteinzug in amazon.de. The other think really popular is EC cards (Maestro), i.e. European standard bank-issued debit cards.
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Old Dragon says:


Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

tillwe and other
Is there any reason why credit cards are not popular in Germany?
How are you paying when traveling outside of EU?
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
SilentObserver (staff) edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

@tillwe

yes, we also use direct money transfer a lot in france, especially to pay monthly bills (phone, gas, electric). and yes, i forgot about maestro cards.

clearly paypal was a good mean of payment for germany, too bad flickr killed it.

but that's a bit off-topic, since unless the censorship issue is resolved, flickr will not have to worry about german people paying "pro" accounts!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )

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loborroso says:

Dear Staff, what about a little more information about what is the problem instead of fuzzy "working on it"-statements (letting us guess wildly which censorship laws in Germany might apply) and whining about people being upset with you.

The only reason I can see you couldn´t give us this information, not even concerning WHO the trouble is with, is yahoo-HQ is behind this and you don´t want to compromise your "owners".

I strongly hope there´ll be an end to censorship and empty-words information policies soon.

PD: Forgot to mention whining about having to work through the night while there´s a big share of flickr users outraged about being censored. Poor you, now that´s really out of proportion.
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
loborroso edited this topic ages ago.

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myfear says:

SilentObserver guess we are a couple of years behind the US. The "living on credit" is nothing for the german attitude at all .. this changes very slowly ...

If you travel outside the EU you have to use them. Thats why they get more common over the last few years ...
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
myfear edited this topic ages ago.

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Chemical X. says:

I'm curious too, i would have guessed credit cards are popular in Germany :)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
Chemical X. edited this topic ages ago.

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uberschnapp PRO says:

againstflickrcensorship
Nicht mit uns!
Anyone notice how the FLICKR staff commenting on these threads are all reading out the same corporate statement that says NOTHING
Answers Please!!!
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
uberschnapp edited this topic ages ago.

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guidoalexanderwaldenmeier says:

@SilentObserver
simply in small towns you can not pay with it

and in many bigger town you have problems


i need my credit card only for holidays in usa or canada ;)
Posted ages ago. ( permalink )
guidoalexanderwaldenmeier edited this topic ages ago.

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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

Is there any reason why credit cards are not popular in Germany?

at the time i was working in france, i was told by the management of my company that it's a cultural thing that german don't like credit-cards.

simply in small towns you can not pay with it

but that's a chicken and the egg issue: if more businesses would take cards, then more people would use them, and vice versa.

whay are credit-card used so-much in france? i think that's because some banks (e.g. state-owned banks at the time, like BNP) gave very good deals with credit-cards, both to users and to businesses. it was cheap and very convenient, much cheaper than now.

also it's a french company that has many of the patents on the cards with embeded chip (carte-a-puce), which allow better security checking. the only reason why they don't use then in the US is because credit-card companies don't want to pay the pattent royalty fees to the french companies, they are waiting for the patent to go public-domain in a few years.
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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uberschnapp PRO says:

Even in big towns too, I travel quite a lot in Germany and had real trouble a couple of years ago finding restaurants in the part of Munich I was in that took cards...
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myfear says:

uberschnapp As far as I know, you cannot even pay at a famous burger restaurant in germany with credit card :-)
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Scy83 says:

Germans (at least many) generally don't like the "living on credit" attitude. But another reason is that we're feeling uncomfortable with using payment methods that allow everyone who knows simply what's printed on my card (number, expiry date, maybe that small number on the back) to pay on our account. We're trusting electronic systems with PINs much more.

Can we now please focus on bashing Flickr again? ;P
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Scy83 edited this topic ages ago.

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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

Are not you guys traveling outside of EU.
I can see lot's of German tourists here in Vancouver.
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außerirdische sind gesund says:

myfear: that sounds as if it was as bad thing ; )
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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

Scyt**e
Can we now please focus on bashing Flickr again? ;P

Sure :)
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Wave / Particle / Pixel PRO says:

@silentobvserver (and others) In Holland credit cards are quite rare, and cheques even moreso (i only saw someone pay with a cheque for the first time in my life here in france a few months ago) In Holland we have a system called 'PIN'. As far as i understood it is some sort of debit card. In the large majority of shops and restaurants etc you can pay using this method. The main advantage of this system is that you don't pay a percentage to your bank/card company. Ofccourse there is some fee, but that is something like €0,10 regardless of what you are buying and how much it costs. Even better, most of the shops pay these transaction costs.
Within Europe we can get cash from most ATM's, I am not sure how this would be in the US, as long as they support maestro there should not be a problem.

edit: this is focussing on flickr, maybe less on this thread, but if i want to extend my pro-account (which now i am not yet sure of...) i first need to find someone who will let me use their credit card...
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Wave / Particle / Pixel edited this topic ages ago.

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Chemical X. says:

There are lots of German tourists here too, i think they are all over the world it seems - : ). I Don't care though, the woman are beautiful(well the ones i have seen.) :))

((sorry for deviating from focus of thread))
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außerirdische sind gesund says:

SilentObserver: Do you have any information when this will be ironed out (read: this childish cybernanny stuff will be removed)?

You being amazed by German paying conventions is understandable, but I think you can understand we do not like being censored by a corporation that is based in the nation of nipplegate either.

Also, could please the "Flickr loves you" be removed from the logo on the top? I think it is cynical to censor users and to tell them you love them at the same time.
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außerirdische sind gesund edited this topic ages ago.

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Scy83 says:

SilentObserver: Some people will get credit cards if they're traveling, others prefer paying by cash.

But you're not really interested in this, are you? It's just distraction... :)

I wonder what it is Flickr is "working" on. Rather a technical problem or a legal one? Because I can't imagine your lawyers being awake and working right now...
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Andreas Helke says:

Checks still work fine but I use maybe one in two years. The by far most popular method of payment in germany is to simply give our business partners the right to draw money from our bank accounts. And when going shopping we still use cash a lot.
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luisa brehm PRO says:

Hi, All !!!
and what about Honk Kong, Singapore or Korea ???
i would like to know the reactions there ....
i'm in Solidarity with Everyone !!!
luisa

let's win !!!
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Mark Howells-Mead says:

Speaking from a Swiss standpoint, there appears to be a national preference for avoiding debt if possible. Though this isn't relevant to credit card purchasing, most banks require a considerable deposit before agreeing to mortgages, and it's not uncommon for people to pay 25% - 30% of their house price from savings, rather than going the U.K. route of getting 100% mortgages. Few people I know here have credit cards, most have payment cards (a.k.a. debit cards). Most banks offer this kind of card featuring a 16 digit number for use in online payment, but the money is taken from the account either immediately, or at the end of the month via direct debit.

(I'm writing about Swiss trends as Yahoo! seem to be lumping users based in Switzerland with users based in Germany, and the same rules are being applied to both countries.)
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Mark Howells-Mead edited this topic ages ago.

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Felicea says:

SilentObserver : Technophobia sometimes. But german government was using information from credit card servers two month ago, to start house searches because of child porn. But without checking whether the card was stolen, misused or not. Some people getting in real trouble, without ever have anything to do with childporn. This makes credit cards not more popular between the german people..

Most germans only have cards if the have to travel frequently to other countrys.
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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

sooperkuh
No updates yet, but we are really working.
And we are really sorry...
As a Russian I understand you very much... sorry guys....
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

flickr является также цензуре в россии?
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro edited this topic ages ago.

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Old Dragon says:

"Can we now please focus on bashing Flickr again? ;P"

OK...

Flickr Old Dragon
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guidoalexanderwaldenmeier says:

@ andreas helke
ich verstehe nicht das überweisung so ein problem ist
;)

yahoo hat doch auch eine deutsche niederlassung und ihnen wird doch wohl der vorgang aus dem täglichen "geschäft" vertraut sein
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Farruska says:

there is a specific thread for discussing payment methods and concerns ...
flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/42499/page2/

perhaps it would be also useful for Flickr staff to concentrate all information and discussion on one thread only ...
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Lutz-R. Frank says:

if the number of "think flickr, think!" entries in todays interestingness isn't sign enough for the frustration - I don't know what should be ...
June 13th will be remembered certainly based on these entries !!!
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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

loupiote (Old Skool) I live in Canada now :)
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--ex Paris (now London) Steve-- says:

Just thowing in my 2 Eurocents....
The problem here seems to be that the restricted and moderate categories are being used for dubious imagery IN GERMANY...

What flickr seems to miss out on is cultural differences, and I don't mean adding languages, I mean cultural differences.

What you can see on any street in Germany (or France) would be classed as pornography in parts of the US whereas in Germany or France its just a yogourt ad....

Conversely several counties have laws about denying the holacaust or nazi symbolism... (not just Germany) ....

Thirdly, the "swazsticker" has Hindu symbolism nothing to do with any Nazi implications ... another culture... another misinterpretation of culture!

The bottom line is that the "rating" system aka "flag your photo" aka

1. Safety Level

* Safe - Content suitable for a global, public audience
* Moderate - If you're not sure whether your content is suitable for a global, public audience but you think that it doesn't need to be restricted per se, this category is for you
* Restricted - This is content you probably wouldn't show to your mum, and definitely shouldn't be seen by kids
Is less than meaningless.
Most times questions about it refer to the AMERICAN film/tv rating system that noone outside of America has ANY interest in....

Even just within Europe this is dramatically different... in the UK a photo of a pistol would probably fall under "not for kids" AND a photo of a nipple being caressed would fall under the same... In France it is considered normal family content to have a womans breast being fondled either on TV or on an advert on the side of a public bus.

... and this is only talking about Europe!!!!
Lets add Saudi Arabia or Pakistan... (it says global)... what is considered "safe" for children, family and even grown people is completely different.

In this case Germany has some tough anti-nazism laws... every American stand up and take a pot-shot ... (waits)...
What US based people often don't get is that if you want to post a Seranno photo of him taking a riding crop us his (well you know)... that is perfectly legal in France or Germany... it is NOT considered unsuitable... rather it is considered distasteful...

All EU countires actually have exceptions on certain things and what are best described as quirks, legally these are usually under "public order" ... EU law prohibits censorship BUT Germany can claim "public order" as an exception...
In most cases "public order" is actually abused... as a European ... this seems like one case where its actually valid!

So the problem to me is not the imagery but the way flickr try and make "global decency rules"... which is more like trying to make a game combining basketball, baseball and football... you simply can't play non-contact football or full contact baseball because .. well they are different games with different emphases...

In other words and much shorter, public, moderate and restricted are just meaningless in a global context...
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Flickr Staff

SilentObserver PRO says:

Lutz-R. Frank
BTW, about interestingness
Technically the images are not photos and should not be there :)
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schildmiez [self-deleted censorshipvictim] says:

Was hat denn das eine eigentlich genau mit dem anderen zu tun?
Würden wir nicht mehr zensiert werden wenn wir mit Kreditkarte zahlen?
------
What exactly has one thing to do with the other?
Wouldn't we be censored if we payed with credit cards?
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guidoalexanderwaldenmeier says:

*off topic*

maybe helpfull for the staff to unterstand better the german spirit and not so much confused about ;o)

take this
germanizer.de/
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

yes, "cultural globalization" does not work too well.
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Flickr Staff

heather says:

Housekeeping note: As per someone's previous suggestion (I'm sorry that I can't remember who), I've flagged this as a hot topic and added a link to Stewart's recent update.

Otherwise, I'd like to reiterate Stewart's comments above that we're working as quickly as possible to make the situation better.
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Scy83 says:

SilentObserver: I bet someone in Flickr HQ has already suggested wisely to flag all accounts as "unsafe" who have not flagged the protest image as "illustration"...? :)

Just in case you were thinking about doing something like that (the last 24 hours made me a bit doubt that Flickr always knows what they're doing): Really, you shouldn't.
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Dominik Schwind PRO says:

By the way: you're my Flickr staff hero of today. :)
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loupiote (Old Skool) pro PRO says:

What exactly has one thing to do with the other?
Wouldn't we be censored if we payed with credit cards?


no.

the only think that they have in common is that flickr, on the same day, implemented:

- german localization of the UI (i.e. site in german language and other languages, too)
- blocking of "moderate" and "restricted" images to german users (and 3 other countries)
- flickr not accepting paypal payment anymore (i.e. must pay with credit card)
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