ShutterCraze (NUEL) 8:14am, 9 August 2008
I am really confused on our group's policies for our photo shoots, specifically our agreements with the models. After proposing the Au Salon shoot I felt like I was trying to do something really against the PDX Strobist guidelines of conduct after Whoowl's explanation.

I discovered something very interesting that some of the comments made on my Au Salon thread are in my opinion not really true. Please go to my flickr pictures and the first/recent picture is a screenshot of my computer desktop. It is easier to see if you look at the largest version size. The left side of the image is a PDX Strobist image (Whoowl's) and the right side of the picture is a commercial website with what I think is a PDX Strobist picture. It is not the same exact capture, but I am almost certain it is from the same PDX Strobist shoot. After overlooking the website ( I see it is a business for making a business, price list and all.

For those of you who were concerned for me, how is this different than my proposal for shooting Au Salon that is also a commercial business? Maybe there was some special arrangement with the models and if that is the case do I need to do the same for the employee's of Au Salon. Or did we pay the Sugar Q dance troop? Or did use our images without permission? Or maybe this was shot on a different occasion?

PDX Strobist
Maybe some of our admins can research this and better explain our guidelines before I get further into planning the Au Salon shoot. I'd like to do it right!

metakephoto PRO Posted 10 years ago. Edited by metakephoto (admin) 10 years ago
There is a fine line between doing shoots for educational purposes and taking away clientele from Portland photographers (which includes probably every member in the pdx strobist group) But there is also alot that we can learn from doing shoots for actual businesses and clients. Now if we did pdxstrobist photo shoots for every hair salon in Portland, that would be wrong...But if we do it once I feel it could be a great learning tool.
Though in this instance I would of set up the shoot as a contest that the top photographer would win something like a gift certificate from the "Au Salon" or even $$ that the salon would of spent on another photographer doing the shoot. And the Salon would have the right to reject all of the shots and not give anything out at the end if they didnt like anyones work. And this would be a great learning tool for all of us to figure out how to make a client happy. And we could of gathered all of the images from the particiating photographers and only shown "Au" small proofs that they could decide on. And there wouldnt be any hi-res images given out, unless they pick a winning photographer and compensate them.

And i regret that peoples feeling got hurt in the process, but I think it'll help us solidify the groups guidelines/expecations further.
Whoowl Posted 10 years ago. Edited by Whoowl (member) 10 years ago
For the record, I didn't realize that Vega dance studio was using the model's pictures for promotion of the studio. I was under the impression that the dancer's were using the pics for their porfolios just like the other models at our shoots.

Also, I just looked at their site, and it doesn't have any pictures in that corner or anywhere from the shoot up now.
thinkable straw [deleted] 10 years ago
oh boy..

I agree with Jeff, and I also agree with John.

I agree with jeff, one time is a great learning tool for a high pressure enviroment where the expectations are set high. There's nothing wrong with the photos barosborough did, they're great headshots and i'm really surprised that they said no, they look great. I guess they were looking for something more...edgy?

But I agree with John, the fact that this is basically a free commercial shoot for them means (and jeff mentioned this too), that we would be taking away from another shooter trying to pay bills and while they would be making 100% gain, we wouldn't be getting squat as a group besides "experience in a high pressure environment". As if 6 other very talented photographers are looking over your back while you shoot at the meets isn't high-pressure enough, (I get nervous sometimes :p ).

I'll have to think about it. I've been missing a bunch of meet ups and really enjoy shooting with the group, but there have been some very valid points that I hadn't considered when this first went up. :/
roxnmud 10 years ago
I'm not sure I agree with the position of shooting for free takes away from another shooter trying to pay bills because that directly affects the volunteering mindset. If we applied this elsewhere, does it mean we should not volunteer to pick up trash at the beaches because that takes away a need for the city to pay someone minimum wage to do it? Or, why do we have such groups like this to work on our technique, since that would increase the number of "professionals" and be more competition for said shooter. I'm confident that groups like this takes away the need for new photographers to attend paid workshops hosted by other professionals.

There is more than enough work for a professional shooter out there. If a shooter is not finding enough work, then perhaps he's not doing something right. Most likely it is not the photography aspect, but the more of the "professional" aspect the shooter needs to work on.

Whoowl 10 years ago
Although I am glad people are in agreement with my, I think I need to clarify my position as some people are saying they agree with me and then say something that is not 100% what I meant.

I have no problem with people wanting to go setup shoots with businesses and giving them basically a commercial shoot for free.

I *DO* have a problem with my spending time trying to promote PDX Strobist, and volunteering to setup shoots for people that are then being used by a business for commercial gain. I also have a problem with the PDX Strobist website being used to facilitate such situations (especially since I just arranged for a move of the server to a new faster internet location, and bought upgrades for the server to address people's slowness issues)

I am hear to help people learn, learn myself, and spend time with friends and making new friends. I am NOT going to give away my time so others can benefit from it.

Whether or not the group decides they are ok with that is up to others, but I would vote that we should steer clear of such things in general. If people are okay with it, then that is fine, but I won't be involved in the planning, organizing or attending those events.
LukeOlsen PRO 10 years ago
I understand Shuttercraze's confusion. I always thought that the models or their place of employement (if the shots were taken there) could do whatever they wanted with the images as long as some sort of copyright or other notice was displayed of the photographer. That said, I always thought the photographer could do whatever they wanted with the images. Since model releases are not signed this pretty much limits the photographer's use to self-promotion but isn't this the same thing in the case of the business or the model? To self-promote?

How much a business makes on an image(s) is hard to quantify and there are many photographers out there (even non-strobist ones) who would do shots for free just for the exposure.

The long standing premise is that the photograher gains value simply by experience so no compensation should be expected. Once you've reached that stage you should probably setup your own shoots.

I do agree with John in that we should try to minimize this but also bear in mind that so far we have done only one big shoot a month and not all of those were for commercial reasons.

My only complaint and probably why this became more of an issue is Au Salon's treatment of barosborough. It has sort of tainted this in my eyes.

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