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OregonVelo 5:23pm, 23 January 2008
There have been bits and pieces of this discussion in the RSVP photo shoot, but no real decision. So I thought I would start a thread about compensation.

My thoughts are:

This is a learning experience for the photographers, so why can’t it be a learning experience for the models? Basically meaning that no one gets paid in a monetary form. The photographers are getting photos of models, so why don’t we share the photos with the models. Something like each photographer needs to supply each model with one shot. If the photographer is unwilling to supply the digital image then they need to supply an 8x10. There would be an agreement that these images are for personal/portfolio use and that any image to be use for commercial purposes needs have another arrangement made.

I know that lots of photographers dislike the trade for photo model but my understanding is that this is a learning environment for everyone and doesn’t fix the normal T4P model.

Since we are bringing ideas to the photo shoot of what we want, why don’t we try what the models may want also? This ties in with the idea of a photographer working with a client and trying to achieve the goal of the client.

Those are some of my thoughts. I was hoping that we could hammer this out so that everyone one knows what the expectations are on both side of the camera. I hope I didn’t over step by roll in this or bring up something that has already been decided.

- shane
mrjonathanpotter 10 years ago
I would concur with the T4P idea, unless the models are looking for more compensation.
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ShutterCraze (NUEL) 10 years ago
@OregonVelo

Thanks for sharing your ideas. I am also concerned about my model since she will be dressed in her roller derby gear. I told her she may use the prints for personal use. However my concern is that one of our group's images makes it to the roller derby league and used commercially without permission. I like OregonVelo's idea of maybe having two seperate contracts, one for personal/portfolio and the other for commercial. Is there anyone here that can help me out with the proper documentation/contract or lead the way where I may get hardcopies? I mentioned in another tread that I will provide my model with prints, but I am undecided on monetary comp which I will pay. Is $50-$90 a ballpark figure for modeling in this type of environment?
-Nuel.
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metakephoto PRO Posted 10 years ago. Edited by metakephoto (admin) 10 years ago
I'm completely on the TFP/TFCD approach, because if we decided to start paying our models, makeup artists and locations. We would have to start charging for photographers to come to these events.

And in a perfect world we would have some great corporate sponsor that would pay for the models, makeup artists and locations and the photographers would still be able to shoot/learn for free. And currently i'm only contacting models that are willing to work for TFP, so it's a win win situation..models and photographers both get images for their portfolio.

And "yes" we should definitely work with our models and collaborate ideas, it'll make for a more fun and positive environment.
admin
metakephoto PRO Posted 10 years ago. Edited by metakephoto (admin) 10 years ago
If someone could help in this group, I would love to have one Universal Model/Photographer Contract that we could use primarily for our photography group and print out a bunch of copies that every photographer will have to fill out before they start shooting. With information that the photographer cannot use images commercially without models permission and that its okay for personal/portfolio , etc..

So if anyone here can help with this? it would be greatly appreciated.

OregonVelo: thanks for starting this topic, it's something that needs to be done and figured out.
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OregonVelo 10 years ago
No problem... I can work on something. What we may want is a sign in sheet that contains the agreement. Both models and photographers sign. The sign in sheet would not only contain, a non-commercial agreement, but a limited liability statement. I use to ride with a local group of cyclist. The ride was open to everyone. They had a sign in sheet that let them know who attended and make people accept resonspibility for themselves. The limited liability is not only for the group, but the locations that we meet at.
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LukeOlsen PRO 10 years ago
I'm interested in this too. But I'm not opposed to paying a "photographer" fee if it really gets me a chance to learn something. I find that just "attending" these events doesn't really give the same sort of feedback necessary to learn about how your lights work in the given environment (scene, ambient lighting, models, etc...)
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OregonVelo 10 years ago
PDX Strobist Photo Shoot for ______ (Date)______ and _____(Location)__________

Attendance and Non-Commercial Photo Agreement

In order to participate in this event you must agree to the following agreement and sign in at the bottom of the document. The primary purpose of this event is to meet other people interested in photography, practice our craft, learn something new, and to have fun. The intent is to keep cost down for all parties involved. In order to best achieve this we have accepted a small set of rules.

1) As part of this community and event you are expect to post at least one photo from this event and tag it as PDXStrobistMM/DD/YY.
2) As a photographer, if models attend, you are expect to provide at least one photo; digital or 8x10 print, to each model you shoot. This photo is for non-commercial use*.
3) As a model, these events are intended for learning so all payments** will be in the form of a photo. These photos as intended solely for personal non-commercial purposes*.
4) I understand that there is a risk to working in a photography (lights, camera and props) environment. I will carry myself in a manner that is appropriate for such an environment and be responsible for my actions. In participating I accept the risk involved and will not hold the event organizers, participates or the location provider responsible for harm caused by my own actions.
5) I understand that there will be other gear that is similar or the same to mine and that I am responsible for keeping track on my own gear. It is recommended that all personal gear is labeled with name and contact information.
6) If I borrow someone else’s gear I will: first ask, second treat it with care, and third replace it if I break it.

* Non-commercial: Acceptable use would be, but is not limited to personal portfolio, personal website, blogs, and discussion boards (Flickr, Photography Review, FredMiranda, etc). Non-Acceptable use would be, but is not limited to professional websites, team websites, company websites, advertisement, etc.
** Payments: Arranged payments or agreements outside of this document are acceptable but solely the responsibility of the photographer and the model. If other agreement has been arranged, parties still need to sign and agree to this document to participate.

I have read and accept the statements above.

___(Signature)________________ Circle one (Model / Photographer)

___(Signature)________________ Circle one (Model / Photographer)

___(Signature)________________ Circle one (Model / Photographer)
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OregonVelo 10 years ago
That is a rough draft. What do people think? Good? Bad? Missing something?
tim goodspeed 10 years ago
I like it. I have no problem with this.
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metakephoto PRO 10 years ago
All i've gotta say is "thank you, thank you, thank you" to OregonVelo....this is exactly the type of document this group needs...
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ShutterCraze (NUEL) 10 years ago
@OregonVelo

Nice stab at the rough draft. My thought was instead of reinventing the wheel by us creating the document from scratch, how about posting the question for help on the main Strobist group discussions. I got to wonder what the other strobist group meets are doing at their meet ups. I'm sure there are shooters in this group that have their own contracts that they feel comfortable with and use in their own business. Maybe they can share or help draft something for us.
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LukeOlsen PRO Posted 10 years ago. Edited by LukeOlsen (admin) 10 years ago
Nice. Thanks OregonVelo. Can we include things like gallery exhibits, magazine submissions and photography contests into the language?
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OregonVelo 10 years ago
ShutterCraze... good idea. I will search there and if I don't find anything I will post a rest for information.

PhotoInference... I am not sure which side those would fall on. Personally I would see all of those as things that would need additional approval. Agree? Disagree?
admin
LukeOlsen PRO 10 years ago
Thinking... re-thinking about it now I tend to agree. Probably too esoteric for a standard form. Thanks.
feigned seat [deleted] 10 years ago
I like the form, thanks for working it up. I like the idea of keeping $$$ out of it and let the photographer/model work out any additional uses separate of the group. I know for me I'm there to learn and share what I can.

Speaking of models, how many are committed to being there and how many possibles?
admin
metakephoto PRO Posted 10 years ago. Edited by metakephoto (admin) 10 years ago
Model Status:

OregonVelo is bringing a friend/model, Shuttercraze is bringing his friend from the Rose City Roller League and Kenneth Barton mentioned bringing a model. Also i've contacted 2 definite model and 2 that are 100% interested but i havent received a follow-up confirmation.
admin
metakephoto PRO 10 years ago
maybe this is a stupid question, but when you have a model sign a model release, does the model get a copy of the release too?
umbra photo 10 years ago
I don't generally give the model a copy of the release unless they ask for it. In the past 3 years I've been asked probably 3 times. I always have extra so it's not a big deal but generally not needed.
audreywalker 10 years ago
I never ask for a copy of releases. :o)
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