steviej007 PRO 7:02pm, 4 November 2008
yes.
Kevin R Boyd PRO 9 years ago
NO, I don't believe it is. Open platforms were outlawed. If the mayor wants these to run in London, he will have to get the law changed. Is this bus really going to introduce conductors back on the buses too? After all the efforts going into getting people to have Oyster cards and passes and not use cash, the biggest use for a conductor would be to supervise the platform!
If open platforms are outlawed, then why do the old routemasters still run on heritage routes?
Kevin R Boyd PRO 9 years ago
Platforms on existing buses are not outlawed. If they were, there would be a lot of vehicles out there now running illegally outside of London.

London policy is in advance of DDA legislation, i.e. all buses run with accessibility to all. The heritage Routemaster buses run with special dispensation from TfL, and only because they are mirrored by accessible buses. Thus if someone needs a level floor on routes 9 and 15, they can wait for the Routemaster to pass and catch another one.

My point is platforms on new vehicles are outlawed.
secretlondon123 8 years ago
Just nostalgia nonsense for people who don't use buses.
amjamjazz Posted 8 years ago. Edited by amjamjazz (member) 8 years ago
Horrendous.
Notice how the only view is of the backs of people's heads. There is no chance for casual social interaction whatsoever. The ultimate alienation-mobile
This could be designed as a way of deterring people from using buses.
And who is going to police the upstairs fare-dodging rumpus-room? The conductor will be chasing up and down those stairs after every junction as scallies try to hop on undetected. And then when they get upstairs, play the innocent as the conductor asks:'Any more fares?'
I know, because I was that Boy.
And it will still take longer on a route than the bendy, because there will be only one way of getting on at a stop, without fighting against a tide of bodies. So loading will take just as long as it does for the current DD's.
The only bonus will be the thrill of watching people run in vain for the platform, or fall off it.
Again, nothing which would tend to make people nicer in any way, which good design should, and which, believe it or not, in its small way, the Bendy Bus does.
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dubmill PRO 8 years ago
Personally I'd much rather sit facing forward and see the back of someone else's head. It's far more relaxing.

Bendy buses have an arrangement of seats at the back in which a pair of seats faces another pair facing in the opposite direction, forcing people sitting there to be directly facing others and quite close. I've noticed that those seats, and in particular the ones facing backwards, are always the last to go in that area of the bus. I assume this is because people don't want to be forced opposite others and have to keep avoiding each other's gaze. That's the beauty of the all-seats-facing-forward style of a traditional double decker (be it Routemaster or the modern driver-operated replacement). As I said, it's far more relaxing.
amjamjazz 8 years ago
Personally, my experience is the opposite, that when people find themselves talking and relating to each other, and being aware of each other's needs and therefore able to co-operate in making the journey easier, that they are far more relaxed. Which partly accounts for the low rate of rowdiness on bendy Buses, compared with that upstairs on a double decker. The bendy buses are largely self-policing, the mix of generations being a decisive factor.
Being alone is not fun, and its not 'secure' and its not natural. Being forced to be alone and isolated is a way of defusing our natural instinct to communicate. Most of urban culture helps in that process, so it's hardly surprising that some find the experience of facing other people like them a bit new. But this should not be allowed to inhibit the wider benefits.
The job of design is to make life easier, not to package human beings like sardines.
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dubmill PRO Posted 8 years ago. Edited by dubmill (admin) 8 years ago
I find bendy buses far from relaxed. They are overcrowded, which makes getting on and off stressful, and there's a fair degree of low level rowdiness. I take your point that the back of the upper deck on modern double deckers has become an area that yobs often regard as their own, and that the layout on bendy buses doesn't create that opportunity for them. Incidentally, the design of the old Routemaster didn't have that problem either, since the exit was at the back, so there was no zone on the bus that could become that kind of den or lair for hooligans (not to mention that there was a conductor who could keep order inside the bus as well).

Whether being alone is natural or not is a complex question. Ultimately it isn't, of course, but it's something people in cities, and modern industrial societies generally, have become accustomed to, and I for one regard bus travel as a time to relax quietly, let my mind wander, look out of the window and take photos. I don't mind talking to people if they are friendly but I don't like being forced into awkward positions with unfriendly or borderline aggressive (or even just annoying) people, and that's where the bendy bus can create such situations, whereas the regimented seating on the upper deck of a double-decker restricts and discourages them (downstairs, of course, is another matter, being more like a bendy bus, which is why I always go upstairs).
amjamjazz Posted 8 years ago. Edited by amjamjazz (member) 8 years ago
~
the design of the old Routemaster didn't have that problem either, since the exit was at the back, so there was no zone on the bus that could become that kind of den or lair for hooligans

The front of upstairs. And the conductors were not any use at keeping order.
They weren't paid (or armed) well enough.
I don't know how long it is since you've been on a London double decker, but on average they are far more packed, more tense, and slower, later and more uncomfortable than the Bendy experience.
They are, in fact, just a motorised queue. They couldn't be anything else, and now the Madman Johnson wants to put us all back in these sardine tins.
Relax all you want, but don't force everyone to folllow you into urban alienation.
Remember the mantra of 'choice'? Whatever happened to that? On the Bendy, you have the choice to read, tune out, or even go to sleep - which I see all the time and which is a sure indicator of a feeling of security, On Johnson's galleys there will be no choice, or much possibility of interaction. If you want to avoid even seeing a human face all day, it's the way to travel, but it's no way to live. But then, Johnson's class are crippled of human feeling from an early age at by their desensitisation camps. We can't expect them to understand that normal people actually like people, and aren't afraid of them, and enjoy helping each other. Something which is made much harder if you can't see when someone needs help.
And then there's the chicken-grease skating rink of the upstairs centrifugal force-ride. The list oif the DD drawbcaks is endless, and that's even before we've started on how village-idiot ugly this new abortion is. It is Boris in profile, in fact. Look.
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dubmill PRO 8 years ago
The front of upstairs. And the conductors were not any use at keeping order. They weren't paid (or armed) well enough.

This is nonsense. The front of the upper deck of a Routemaster did not have that character at all. I won't dispute that conductors were not well-paid, but they did an excellent job and it is disgusting that profit margin always takes precedence over public amenity.

I don't know how long it is since you've been on a London double decker, but on average they are far more packed, more tense, and slower, later and more uncomfortable than the Bendy experience.

How can sitting down be more uncomfortable than standing up? It is a fact that bendy buses have a much higher ratio of standing to seated passengers than ordinary buses. I will concede that double deckers are slower, because of greater dwell time, but personally I'd rather have a somewhat slower, more comfortable journey than a somewhat quicker one during which I have to stand all the way.

Incidentally I travel on buses virtually every day of the week, often using up to a dozen different routes per day. For example, yesterday my usage was as follows:

67 Harringay, Black Boy Lane - Seven Sisters Road
[Underground from Seven Sisters to Vauxhall]
87 Vauxhall - Wandsworth Road/Landsowne Way
87 Wandsworth Road - Charing Cross
29 Trafalgar Square - Holloway Road/Nags Head
271 Holloway Road/Nags Head - Holloway Road/Liverpool Road
153 Holloway Road - Finsbury Park Station
254 Finsbury Park - Manor House
341 Manor House - Harringay, St. Ann's Road

--

They are, in fact, just a motorised queue.

This is just nonsense

On the Bendy, you have the choice to read, tune out, or even go to sleep

I sleep quite a bit on buses, of all kinds. By the way it is difficult to sleep when standing up.

On Johnson's galleys there will be no choice, or much possibility of interaction. If you want to avoid even seeing a human face all day, it's the way to travel, but it's no way to live

Once again you are projecting your own political/social obsessions onto everything and everyone else. The purpose of public transport is to transport people, not provide some social arena that is to your liking. Never mind that you are constructing this idea of people sitting quietly in their seats as something negative and unhealthy, whereas I think you will find that most people are happy to sit quietly as they travel around, and would prefer that to having to stand for long periods in very crowded conditions.

And then there's the chicken-grease skating rink of the upstairs centrifugal force-ride.

This is undoubtedly a problem, but addressable by more frequent and thorough cleaning. Also, people need to be educated not to drop litter everywhere, and certainly not to regard public transport as somewhere to discard rubbish. Incidentally the type of bus is irrelevant to this issue since bendy buses are frequently awash with rubbish in just the same way.
amjamjazz Posted 8 years ago. Edited by amjamjazz (member) 8 years ago
First mistake of many.
It is a fact that bendy buses have a much higher ratio of standing to seated passengers than ordinary buses

The 'fact' is that bendy buses are more more popular, which is why they are crowded, and is an argument for more of them, and fewer double deckers. Their obvious success is partly due to the fact they are assigned to the main arterial routes, which carry most passengers, but also to the fact that they get you to your destination quicker, and more comfortably.
Your political obsession with the enforced alienation of passengers is for you to deal with. But I remember what the upstairs of the old routemasters were like, and know what the upstairs of the current double-deckers is like, and always assumed this level of squalor was inevitable on public transport - until the bendy bus came along.
It was worth their introduction alone just to see the relief in the faces of mothers who would normally be struggling with prams, when a bendy came along instead .
The new Bulgemaster will make the job of transporting children around much harder again. But that will not matter, as many of them won't be able to afford to travel much under Boris's new fare regime, and even if they could, they might find their route has been cut.
Of course, the entire matter is probably academic. Unless Boris's fairy godmother makes a visit, he's not going to be able to afford to replace the bendy anyway. It was all another campaign lie, like the abolition of the western CC.
But as people don't want them to go, he will slither out of his inevitable U-turn somehow.
Maureen Pullen, 48, of Winchester, said: "The bendy buses’ three doors allowed people to board much faster and brought down journey times." Sine Msomi, 26, from Dulwich, said: "The bendy buses were a great way of getting around." And Agnes Macharia, 32, of Peckham, said she was "sad to see them go".

www.thelondonpaper.com/thelondonpaper/news/london/passeng...
And as for the Bendy Bus as legendary cyclist killer:
Guess who had to eventually admit this?
"I am informed that, thankfully, there have been no fatal accidents arising from collisions between cyclists and articulated buses in London since the introduction of articulated vehicles."

"Serious incidents are defined by TfL as those where a cyclist may have required treatment, including in hospital. There was one serious incident involving a cyclist in each of the years 2005/06 and 2006/07, and two in 2007/08."

torytroll.blogspot.com/2008/10/boriss-bendy-bus-jihad-dou...
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dubmill PRO Posted 8 years ago. Edited by dubmill (admin) 8 years ago
First mistake of many.

How is this a mistake? I said that bendy buses carry a higher proportion of standing passengers (obviously I mean when loaded to, or near to, capacity, not when half-empty). Are you disputing that the bendy bus - when loaded to capacity - carries a *higher proportion* of standing passengers than a double decker loaded to capacity?

The 'fact' is that bendy buses are more popular, which is why they are crowded, and is an argument for more of them, and fewer double deckers

This is just Ken-Livingstone-press-office-at-election-time stuff. Bendy buses are crowded, not because they are 'popular', but because they are used on busy routes where there are lots of people wishing to make journeys and who do so using the available transport, which in this case happens to be a bendy bus. Some of those travelling may like features of the bus they are riding on. Others may not, but the desire to get where they want to go overrides any dislike of the type of vehicle.

I cannot dispute that bendy buses offer somewhat more extensive facilities for wheelchairs and buggies. That is one of their advantages. I have already pointed out a number of their disadvantages but you seem determined to deny that there are any disadvantages, presumably because you are using this whole debate to push an anti Boris Johnson agenda (bendy bus = Livingstone; 'nu-routemaster' = Johnson).

I can honestly say that I DETEST Livingstone and Johnson equally. But I am not basing my criticisms of the bendy bus on any anti Livingstone sentiments. Nor am I praising some aspects of double-deckers because I wish to endorse Johnson. I am not convinced by this new Routemaster design just on the basis of one pretty little diagram. Nevertheless it looks like an interesting attempt to build on the old Routemaster, which was itself an evolution from a succession of previous vehicles used on London streets over the last 150 years. The old Routemaster was severely flawed and out of date, so I had no quarrel with its removal from service (in fact I hate the tedious tendency to romanticise it), but it had its good points and I think the idea of designing a new, much-improved version is a valid project, regardless of its short-term association with Boris Johnson. It will take a number of years to see this through and Johnson will be long gone by then. Indeed you may find that some Labour mayoral candidate of the future (not Livingstone, who has an axe to grind) may see fit, having assessed which way the wind is blowing, to endorse completion of the project.

But that will not matter, as many of them won't be able to afford to travel much under Boris's new fare regime, and even if they could, they might find their route has been cut.

Oh, so Boris Johnson has decided to increase fares and cut services just so he can punish the poor people, whom he hates, not because there are financial issues that have to be addressed? This is just more pro Livingstone sniping. You know, I don't want to pay higher bus fares or have less frequent bus services, but I don't completely exclude the possibility that some changes may be necessary on financial grounds.
37057Viking [deleted] Posted 8 years ago. Edited by 37057Viking (member) 8 years ago
I'd like to see Boris Johnson lose his mayor's seat in the next election. I entered the New Bus for London design competition, but don't otherwise agree with the open platform on a new bus. If I was mayor of London I'd get rid of the bendies. What I'd really like is a new Routemaster inspired bus designed to fit an existing chassis design like the Enviro, Volvo or Scania.
mrmarkmarten 8 years ago
I think the solution is never going to be easy.Since the 60s there was a move to have opo/omo buses in London.The choice of vehicle is now determined not just by cost but by the ability of it to comply with the relevant legislation.London has a Low Emission Zone,this means a different specification or at least it would seem so.I think the trick might be to design a bus with the engine under the stairs and the exit set as far back as possible.It might sound mad but if the flow of passengers was better the bus would work a quicker route.I would say the trick is a better design and not the cheapest option.
mrmarkmarten 7 years ago
37057Viking,Have a look at V3 (A103SUU). It was actually a good design but had some problems or hurdles to overcome. The bus has 2 staircases and a rear exit,the intention was to have a conductor but the unions were not happy with this.A slightly longer version with a good passenger flow could work very well.
Kevin R Boyd PRO 7 years ago
After not reading the whole of the long stream of arguments above, the bendy bus in London is about to be extinct but nobody has ordered the new "Routemaster". The heritage route real "Routemaster" still runs. I wasn't a fan of Bendy Buses, rather they were a tool to do a job, but they used up garage space, and there was a problem with a few that led them to catch fire. Now Arriva is trying out redundant Bendy Buses in Malta, and I am sure the Maltese would rather they had their old traditional buses to stay. Ah well...
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