Hachi Gatsu 7:50am, 22 October 2013
I recently just purchased a 200 ft. roll of Kodak Vision2 250D 35mm film and figured I'd experiment a little before I really cut into it.

For the past week I've been trying to hunt down a good ramjet removal concoction to no avail. I hear good things about Fuji+Borax but nothing about Kodak ramjet short of it's annoying to get off.

I read up on CineStill film that they sell over at Freestyle Photo.com, and read that they removed the ramjet prior to packing. Alright, I thought, so it is possible to remove this stuff before you even shoot it.

I've found loads of tutorials on developing ECN2 film, but the ones I have found all deal with after you've rolled and shot your film and are ready to process. I wanted to see if there was a way I could tackle the ramjet first, then shoot and develop.

On a whim, I picked up some sodium bicarbonate (aka baking soda) thinking this might be a good start. So I sniped off a two frame sized piece and took it to my sink.

*Note: this two-frame piece has now been exposed to light, this was just a prerun to see if my mixture works.*

I first started with 250mL of water (tap water, cold) and 15 grams of sodium bicarbonate (1 tblsp). Tossed it into a small tub and sloshed it around for about a minute.

...Nothing happened. Damn.

I picked up the piece of film, gently rubbing my thumb over the ramjet to see if I even got anything loose. Nothing. Damn it.

So I had another thought; temperature of the water. I turned my faucet on hot and waited until the water was about body temperature 90 to 100 degrees F, and put the piece of film under the warm flowing current.

The black nearly vanished. Aside from a few small bits here and there, nothing remained of the ramjet. I found a solution.

To be sure, I went back to my darkroom and pulled about a 17-ish exposure roll off and rolled it up onto a processing reel, and placed it into a single sized processing tank.

Same combination, though I used water about 100 degrees F (250mL water, 15 grams sodium bicarbonate). I shook vigorously like I was making a fine martini. I did this for about three minutes of solid shaking. Stopped and dumped the mixture. Came out yellow-ish.

Hmm...

Washed with warm water (filled process tank up, shook for 30 seconds, dumped, refilled again, repeat) for about eight times until the water was nearly clean (first few dumps came out blackish red...almost like I just killed something. Be great for Halloween I guess).

I did a final double rinse with distilled water, since I do that as a final rinse for my black and white film (leaves no water spots at all), and moved the roll from a single tank into a double tank; sitting on the top of an empty processing roll for easy drying.

That's about as far as I'm at right now. Currently waiting for it to dry, as I just got done doing this a half hour ago. Once it's dry (going to give it a full 24 hours for good measure. Probably overkill, but I want to make sure it dries), I'll roll it up, shoot it and send it through my chemicals (I'll be doing C-41 processing). I'll post more updates when I get a chance. Hope this helps someone out!
Kyon Thinh 5 years ago
Good job with it. I have a problem with it too, I will try it later, thanks a bunch :).
Hachi Gatsu 5 years ago
This is also works on your film before you develop if you don't want to wait for it to dry before you roll it up.

As for drying before exposing, it takes a while for the emulsion side to dry and if there are any parts that are sticking together, those won't dry at all (since air can't get to it). So it's a little inconvenient if you don't have a light tight area for it to dry.
rexp2 PRO 5 years ago
Kodak's published formula works well. Place the film reels in a daylight developing tank larger than the number of reels. I use a 4 reel tank for up to 2 reels. Soak the film for 10 sec. in the warm solution, then return it to the bottle for future use. Partially fill the tank with warm water and shake very vigorously for about 30 sec. then pour off the black liquid. Repeat this 2 more times and the pour-off will be pink. Refill the tank and take the film to the dark room, unspool and clamp one end to the table. Wipe only the back with a PecPad several times and then respool for development. Whipping the emulsion side only serves to scratch the emulsion.
You don't have to use sodium bicarbonate but sodium CARBONATE, the soda solvay sold in the market. removing remjet like in the lab is not simple because the lab removes it using chemical and mechanical methods, so unless you can build something similar or you have access to one of those (i suppose cinestill can) it's an unconcivable thing to do.
phildil Posted 5 years ago. Edited by phildil (member) 5 years ago
yes Washing Soda, as seen in every hardware store, is the stuff to use - put a teaspoon full in about 500ml of warm water and you get a mild caustic soda type solution -when I'm using ECN2 film I just add in a soda bath to the process ,either before (Fuji) or after (Kodak) the regular C41 dev process. Kodak film will need a bit of extra persuasion, I use a film squeegee (with rubber blades).
gary99099 PRO 5 years ago
I used 3 teaspoons of baking soda in 500 ml of 100 degree water. I agitated the tank for a minute and a half and when I dumped it out the remjet came out with it. I filled and dumped the tank until the water ran clear then processed it normally with a Tetenal C-41 press kit. I used a sponge along the non-emulsion side of the film before the stabilizing step to make sure it was all gone.
Here's an example, there are more shots in the pool and my photostream.

img308_b by gary99099


scooter by gary99099


The same process works for removing the remjet before shooting. I have a totally dark room I can hang the remjet removed film can dry in before being spooled to shoot. I'll post a few examples after I process the film.
Hachi Gatsu 5 years ago
Nicely done! Great photos!
truly.impossible 5 years ago
gary99099:

Hi Gary,

Have you tried removing remjet before shooting, having it dry and then re-spool it?

I'm wondering if cine film (VISION500T) is able to be exposed to darkroom safelight?

I'm expecting myself to be a klutz in the dark room.

Can i after removing the rem-jet have it loaded into canisters to shoot?

Thanks! @hachi gatsu - did you try pre removing the rem-jet?

My aim is to remove the rem-jet prior to shooting because i don't do my own C-41 and hence i cannot remove the remjet since i'm sending it to a lab.
efo PRO 5 years ago
Vision 500T is sensitive to safelight and must be handled in complete darkness, I'm afraid.
Hachi Gatsu 5 years ago
truly.impossible:I really don't have a light tight drying cabinet or dedicated darkroom to hang unexposed film to dry so I do a wash before processing (which removes a majority of it) then before I stabilize the film after I've ran it through the developer and blix I take a soft sponge and remove the rest of the rem-jet on the backing side that didn't come off during the baking soda wash.

If you had a place to dry the film before rolling and exposing then I don't see why you couldn't remove it, however, as far as I know, none of the motion picture films that are out there are okay to use with a safe light. I've only encountered this with certain black and white films and papers (such as Kodak Kodalith).
gary99099 PRO 5 years ago
truly.impossible:

I have 2 rolls currently that I have removed the remjet before shooting. I plan on shooting it this coming weekend. I'll post some examples after I process it.
bearded_fotog PRO 2 years ago
gary99099:
I'm new to the group na shooting motion picture film. I have developed one roll already and go most of it off by using my fingers after the developing process. I just tried the wash soda method and then removed it again after dev and the processed as normal. I will give the next roll this try and see how it goes.
OneMan | Visuals PRO 1 year ago
Personally, I don't like the halation when removing the remjet before shooting. Cinestill has that 'problem' and it kind of ruins the cinematic feel of the film for me. However, if you have no bright specular lights in your frame this certainly works too.

By the descriptions above it just seems quite a hassle, compared to removing it after shooting. Thanks for sharing your insights, though. :)
OneMan | Visuals PRO 1 year ago
gary99099: that is how I do it too and it is the simplest and fastest way in my view. It also avoids the halation effect. :)
technopeasant42 11 months ago
These are really old posts but I am going to add my 2 cents worth anyway. All this stress and anxiety over Remjet is way overweighted. I have developed over 20 rolls in c-41 and had absolutely no problem with the Remjet. You can take it off after developing by just rinsing in warm running water and rubbing the Remjet with your thumbs. Or you can put a tablespoon of baking soda in a liter of water shake vigorously for 30 seconds pour it out and rinse 4 or 5 times before you develop. I have done it both ways. There is no big deal with a tank. I have never had it come off in process into my developer or blix. That may depend on your process. I have been using the C-41 kit from film photography podcast. I have ordered the chemicals to develop by the Kodak formula listed elsewhere here. Will report when I do that but I will probably remove the Remjet ahead of development. Commercial developers have a problem with it in C-41 because they use sprays and rollers in contact with the film during process. I don't think it's any big deal with a tank.
Bernie Lomacs 7 months ago
I'm glad ECN-2 film is popular now, we've been using it since the 1990's, a back the Eastman EXR was new and that stuff had remjet that wouldn't come off with a hammer drill! Seriously tho, use a pre bath.
Borax: 20g
Sodium Sulfite: 100g
Sodium Hydroxide: 1 to 2g
Water to make 1 liter at 100* F
Pour in and agitate slowly for 1 min and dump back in the bottle, you can re use the pre bath. Remjet will not come off yet so your pre bath will stay clean.
Fill tank with water 100 or 102 whatever your 1st dev will be and agitate hard for a min or two. 95% of the rem jet will be gone with the first dump of water.
Repeat a few more times. I let my tank soak for a few mins then rinse really good before developing, you don't want the pre bath still in the emulsion when you pour in the developer.
Develop as normal,
No remjet, no worries.
If you try and remove at the end you can get remjet on the soft emulsion and your sans will look crappy,
Bernie Lomacs 7 months ago
Another note:
If your still having trouble with the Vision 3 stuff, try and find some of the Fuji stocks, the Eterna and Eterna Vivid is excellent film stock for stills and comes in the same Speeds as the vision 3. But the Remjet is a lot easier to remove. The Eterna 250D is great, if I remember I'll upload some
Hachi Gatsu 7 months ago
NemaReprisu:

How long does this mixture last? Might mix up a batch since I'll have a ton to process in a bit.
Joe Novosel 7 months ago
If you're referring to the REMJET remover I'd mix it up as needed. In fact I find it "goes" first. In other words I need to mix up more of this than the other chemistry but it's so easy if you follow the recipe below. I use the Sodium Carbonate alternate prebath formula in the Kodak manual on page 7-34 here: www.handmadefilm.org/resources/technicalResources/process...

Water 27 to 38°C (80 to 100°F) 800 mL
KODAK Anti-Calcium, No. 4 3.0 mL 3.0 mL (Calgon, not needed if using distilled H2O)
Sodium Carbonate (anhydrous) 58.0 g
Sodium Bicarbonate (anhydrous) 19.0 g
KODAK Stabilizer Additive 0.5 mL 0.5 mL (I don't have this but you can get from Kodak)
Water to make 1 L

As for the other chemistry the developer will oxidize the quickest I hear. I've used chemistry over a month old with no issues and have run around 30 rolls through a liter. Keep in mind I consider all of this experimental so I accept the risk of failure or lower quality. If I were shooting film for paid work I'd use commercial film and send it to a lab.

I HIGHLY recommend reading the Kodak manual if you're interested in self-processing ECN2.
Bernie Lomacs 7 months ago
I don't know for sure of the shelf life. Ihave have done at most 16 rolls or so with the same bottle of pre bath within about a month. It didn't seem to loose it's ability to soften the remjet during that time so it will probably last longer. I would think as long as the PH doesn't change to much it should be OK. As for C-41 chemistry I've had mixed experiences. I've 30+ rolls one time and other time only got 15 or so until the quality started to. Drop. With E-6 kits I get 6-8 rolls before extending the dev time. I'll add 30 second to first developer for a couple then 30 more depending on density of the slides. Once I get to about 15 minuites I make new chemistry, trying to get more and the color starts to get dull.
bearded_fotog PRO 7 months ago
UPDATE: A Year later.

I have been shooting a lot of Vision3 250D over the last year. This is what I have found hat works for me. I usually do the pre-soak for about 3 minutes in about 110 F° prior to developing.

Then I develop as normal in C-41. After the final rinse. I fill the tank back up with hot mater and some Dawn liquid soap (pretty much the same as wetting agent or fotoflo). From there I agitate the film to make sure its covered. Then i remove and hang the film and then dunk a kitchen sponge I bought for rem-jet removal and pour the soap mix over it and then slide it along the film until there is no more rem-jet. Usually 2 wipes and it's all gone.

Seems to work for me. Here are a couple of links to my most recent Vison3 work.

www.flickr.com/photos/awhitesphotography/27051722639/in/a...

www.flickr.com/photos/awhitesphotography/24955337398/in/a...
Bernie Lomacs 7 months ago
Anyway you can get clean negatives, I actually switched to metal reels just for remjet and B&W reversal. I found loading wet film onto a patterson reel a real pain. It is defiantly the cheaper if you shoot a lot of 35mm color. I'd love for Kodak or Fuji to make 100' rolls of color again. I think it dries more flat, especially Reversal, I got some velvia that I got to roll up backwards around an empty bulk roll spool for a week before the can scan it.
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