Toughboy 4:39pm, 21 April 2007
I know its just been 2 days since I bought my D200 but am I missing something or is there no way to shoot while screen is on?

I dont want to look in the viewfinder in every picture I take, there must be a way that I couldnt see in the users manual... =(
trAvelpig Posted 12 years ago. Edited by trAvelpig (member) 12 years ago
nope, the viewfinder is the only way to go, there is no 'live view' in most dslrs.

i'm sure someone more technically inclined will elaborate on the subject.
Toughboy 12 years ago
holy &%+?!

I want to be able to look at the screen and see histogram while I shoot.. =(((

I dont understand.. there must be a way..
pangalactic gargleblaster and the heart of gold Posted 12 years ago. Edited by pangalactic gargleblaster and the heart of gold (member) 12 years ago
if you want to look at the LCD for composition and viewfinder-y stuff, you need one of the olympus DSLR's or the not-yet-available (and almost definitely out of most people's budget) eos 1d mk3/photo-uzi.

and histograms are only available after you press the shutter.
Melmoth the Wanderer 12 years ago
this is a pro/ semi pro camera, so no chimping is allowed, as it is makes the photographer look unprofessional :~).
Cooriander 12 years ago
take a test shot so you can see the histogram, then adjust (:
photofarmer 12 years ago
The sensor is behind the mirror and the shutter when you're looking through the viewfinder. In order to generate a view on the screen the camera would have to have another sensor that steals some light from the viewfinder and some circuitry to switch between the view and the last picture.

It's unfortunate, but fixing it would raise the complexity and the price of the camera.

If you want to take a picture with the camera in a position where you can't look into the viewfinder (e.g. over your head), set your lens a bit wider than you think you need and shoot blind. It takes a bit of practice to be able to do this with reasonable results, but digital pictures are free, so experiment.
Toughboy 12 years ago
Man... I'm so disappointed.. Even my old Canon S50 could show at its screen while I shooted. Sure, it wasnt a SLR but anyways..

I guess I'll get used to living without it :)
Ryan Brenizer Posted 12 years ago. Edited by Ryan Brenizer (member) 12 years ago
The difference is that on the S50 the viewfinder was virtually useless; on the D200 it's a better way to view a scene than any electronic screen. There are a few dSLRs that allow that to some degree, but the implementations are still problematic, thanks to that darned mirror. Maybe there will be more cameras like the Sony R-1 that follow the digital paradigm fully as more and more people say "film? what was that?" but that day isn't here yet.

If it's a big issue, you may want to activate your return policy. There might be better cameras out there for you.
_Blake Adam 12 years ago
You could always go ahead and buy a new Canon Mark III. It offers That feature I believe.
Titanfan 12 years ago
I used a panasonic fz20 before buying the d200 and I was pretty addicted to the histogram myself. One thing is the metering on the d200 is way better than any p&s so I've learned to trust what the camera is telling me. Also, it has made me better at evaluating the scene and how to set my camera. And like cooriander said, take a test shot and then check the histogram.
shoothead 12 years ago
This might have been something you looked into before making the purchase...all I'm sayin'...
Dev1900 12 years ago
it looks unprofessional to be looking at a screen while taking a picture plus having the screen on the whole time will eat away at the battery life and that aint to hot to start with. its the only way look thru the view finder its nice and big. in time you will understand it
Toughboy 12 years ago
I used a Canon EOS 5 for years and all I dreamed of those days was having a big screen which I could see detailed info like histogram, ISO, aperture and even the distance between objects while I was taking photos!!! :) I gues digital age is not ready to make all of my dreams come true yet.
Tony Maeller 12 years ago
Those features are probably reserved for the D400. ;) In the mean time at least you'll be able to see your shots afterwards and hit "Delete" if they don't turn out.
Oli Long 12 years ago
The view of the scene through the human eye is far more accurate than through any LCD. Through the viewfinder you can see so many more things about a scene more that you would see through an LCD. The image is pure and the scene can be analysed by the brain so much better.

To frame a scene the LCD is fine, but to capture exactly what is infront of the piece of glass/magnesium/alloy; the brain is the finest analyser of what is in front of the lens. Sorry, thats very deep, but to see what in front of you you need to SEE whats in front of you.

Ive started to pull friends point and shoots up to my eye, its scary but its shows quite how you analyse the scene youre trying to capture for yourself or the world.
NTconcepts 12 years ago
Fuji S5 has it and for focusing macro and telephoto it's awsome
Tilden Katz 12 years ago
Neil is right, the live view is a good tool.

That's why I initially wanted to get a Olympus E-330. This has the best live view so far. With two sensors and foldable monitor and stuff. Alright. In the end I decided for the D200 and I dont spend a thought on the Olympus anymore, which is a great camera no doubt.

A personal preference depends on your shooting style (which is the issue here I feel) of course, but the viewfinder definitely gives you better control. And this is where the D200 really shines.

After some practise I find the lack of live-view feature is mostly a virtual one. The playback gives all the information (and more) you need.

Maybe the D200 forces you to adapt your style a little. That's sometimes not easy, but I hope you can arrange yourself with it. The results are worth the effort.
**Paul_Benjamin** 12 years ago
This has to be a joke........ Right???

Did you even bother to find out wht the features of the camera you were buying were? Why would you want to turn your sensor into a huge dust magnet whilst it is charged up for the live preview?

I'd suggest you return the D200 and buy a canon Mark 1d111 and attach a nice super zoom like the sigma 18-200 to it.....
photofarmer Posted 12 years ago. Edited by photofarmer (member) 12 years ago
The live view is a good tool for specialized purposes and I miss it from my P&S days. There are times when you're in a crowd and want a picture. With live view you can just hold the camera over your head and compose the picture. Can't do that and look through the viewfinder.

The D200 has so many other nice features I've grown used to being without live view. I wouldn't go back.

I've learned to shoot blind, i.e. holding the camera over my head and shooting away. The LCD shows me what I got, if not what I'm going to get. With the rapid fire capabilities of the D200 I can instantly correct my field of view and try again.

I didn't check out the D200 to the extent of finding out what it DIDN'T have available. I found enough features that were important to me that I bought one. Glad I did.
far rail [deleted] 12 years ago
jesus, you put a bulletin asking whether to get a d1x or d200, everyone said get the d200. I said get the d80 as it looks like you shoot for fun..
if people looked at your photos before jumping on the 'get the best bandwagon' you could have saved yourself some cash & a red face.

I cant believe you ain't read up on something that your shedding $$$ on...

what you would have been better of with would be a 'bridge dslr' it has the live view so no need to look through the viewfinder..
photofarmer 12 years ago
So the guy missed a couple of points before buying. He now has a D200. He has two choices:

(1) return the D200 and get something with the one feature he misses

(2) Use the D200 and push himself into better photography. The D200 will teach you a lot if you're willing to learn.

Good luck to you and ignore the detractors.
Richard Horsfield 12 years ago
I'll swap your D200 with my Fuji Finepix... it's got exactly the features you desire and I'll throw in a free bag too :)
striped growth [deleted] 12 years ago
I read somewhere that in order to implement a 'live view' on a DSLR you sacrifice thing like (as already said) more portential dust (as the mirror helps block out a lot of it) as well as performance because some of the camera's processing power is being used up feeding a live image to your LCD. There is also the fact that the LCD tends to eat battery power like nothing else on the camera. And the D200 isn't known for it's superior battery life (like my 'ol D70 was!)
NTconcepts 12 years ago
I've shot 20,000+ photos on my S5 and 5 have been with live view. I was happy to have it for those 5. And it does add to the focus ability.

It's not just live view. It allows you to digitally chimp in on pixels while focusing. meaning a shot of a city skyline will allow you to focus on one building face even if it only takes up 2% of the FoV. The human + diopter cant do this.
didactic doctor [deleted] 12 years ago
You could also buy a "ZigView" from B&H....its a live view LCD panel that mounts on the eyepiece. They have 3 models from $229 to $469.
instinctive humor [deleted] 12 years ago
Still that doesn't give you the histogram & other info.
But it can help when shooting at an odd angle.
Tessar. 12 years ago
I'd love live preview on my D200 for low angle shots and semi macro flower shots etc. but the sensor is a dust magnet without live preview, it'd be terrible with it...
larrygerbrandt 12 years ago
You might be happier with the Lumix DMC-LX2. Huge screen, 10 megapixels, live viewing, histogram, 16x9 format, even shoots RAW, f/2.8 lens, wide optical zoom and image stabilized Leica optics. Of course there is that little shutter lag problem with almost all non-DSLRs.
Toughboy 12 years ago
@ Gonzo: I asked about D1x vs. D200 because the second hand D1x I found was about 30% cheaper than the brand new D200.. Thanks to the comments, I chose D200 and I'm quite happy with it.

If you have looked at my photos in the mean time, you can see that 90% of them are taken with a camera phone and they are nowhere near serious shots.

I'm sorry to see how you guys over-reacted about my little disappointment regarding the viewfinder thing. It was something I wondered, I learned that it doesnt work that way and I'm ok with it, period. Nothing to exaggerate.

Some people are suggesting point-and-shot devices or Canon 1D MarkIII! I think of them as little jokes, because they are nowhere near substitutes. P&S's are like toys compared to D200 and MarkIII will probably be zillion $$$.

Fuji S5, on the other hand, could be a substitute. But I dont think I'll return my D200 in the first disappointment I face. Not to get a Fuji at least.. I'm sure Fuji S5 is a nice beast too, but its neither Nikon, nor D200.. :)
Toughboy Posted 12 years ago. Edited by Toughboy (member) 12 years ago
@ Larry:

Lumix DMC-LX2 is the same as Leica's D-Lux. We have the Leica version in our Apple Store and as far I could see, its the best compact machine I've ever put my hands on.

But the same thing goes for here too: D-Lux is a compact machine. If I ever look for a substitute for my Canon S50, it'll be Leica's D-Lux. Since I cant afford a Leica SLR like M8 or R9 plus some decent Leica lens set, D200 is the best machine to own these days at my budget range.
Ryan Brenizer Posted 12 years ago. Edited by Ryan Brenizer (member) 12 years ago
There are interesting issues to talk about here without throwing stones. There is one pretty nice advantage to a LCD view that you don't hear a lot about -- accurate, real-time depth-of-field view. The view of a wide-open 85mm f/1.4 through an optical viewfinder looks nothing like the actual image, thanks to the mechanics of the view screen. On an LCD, though, you can actually see how points of light will explode into huge circles before taking the shot. I tested this on the S5 after viewing this thread last night. We're only now learning how implementations can be useful while not compromising SLR goodness. Let's revisit this thread in five years and see how it looks.
Nice one, Bunnymonster! I came from a Sony DSC R1.. It has a live lcd which can swivel to ridiculous angles, but, a DSLR, it ain't, that's why I got the D200. It's a real camera.. Way to go Carpe!
**Paul_Benjamin** 12 years ago
Actually the accurate DoF preview would be nice on occasion, as would being able to accurately see the focus points while producing shots requiring really tight focus control. I can definitely see the usefulness of a live preview in certain circumstances.

I may have been a bit harsh, I'm getting annoyed by the repeated "What!!! I have to think and use technique???" threads....
dsevilla 12 years ago
Oh, I didn't remember that the S5 had it... Now this means that the D200 could have it with a firmware update??? Well, that would be great. I don't know if I would use it much or not, but it would be nice to have it. Why not?

diego.
Tilden Katz 12 years ago
DoF preview in the viewfinder has its own button on the D200. That dont require a monitor preview. Or do I miss the point?
WintrHawk 12 years ago
I don't see why Live-View ala the Fuji S5 Pro couldn't be implemented in firmware. The only issue would be heat buildup. I wonder if there's an advisory to wait a little while before shooting if you've had the mirror up in Live-View for a bit of time. I believe the S5 has a time limit of 30 seconds? I wonder if that's related to the 30-second timeout in MUP mode.
JMBurrowPhotography 12 years ago
Unless you go with the new Canon 1Ds mark III, you can't get any live view with a digital SLR. It's almost pointless.
Ryan Brenizer 12 years ago
Or a Fuji or an Olympus or a Panasonic or a Leica…
**Paul_Benjamin** 12 years ago
knips_r: The aperture preview button is somewhat useful, but frankly with the lens wide open you do not get anywhere close to an accurate idea of what is going to become blurred.

I'm sure someone (looks at starfish) can explain the optical theory behind it, but the view finder definitely gives the impression that more will be in focus than actually is...
far rail [deleted] 12 years ago
This has turned into one of dr winstones programs, I agree I miss the feature of the lcd that I had with my sony f717 but to be frank the quality wasn't that good and wasn't very reliable in telling my if the subject was in focus or not.

Id prefare to look through a viewfinder than look at a screen any day
Tilden Katz 12 years ago
bunnymonster: I see what you mean. As bright and clear the focussing screens have become. Still there is a little granularity. But thats probably another thread. Thanks for the clarification.

For me the DoF preview is mostly for smaller apertures, so see what comes into focus at the actual aperture. But the image becomes quite dark at times.

I think at the bottomline there is a number of "features" a live preview can add. Users are asking for it. From what I read in the press and with the 1DMkIII, it seems to move into the mainstream nowadays. I doubt that many new DSLRs will appear without it.
Its Benj 12 years ago
LOL'd at this, Idiot
Tilden Katz 12 years ago
Hmm, even for a non-native this doesn't sound like appreciation. Never mind, speech is free. The problem with words though, they tend to be reflexive. At times.
steen heilesen Posted 12 years ago. Edited by steen heilesen (member) 12 years ago
@ Toughboy: You wrote;
I'm sure Fuji S5 is a nice beast too, but its neither Nikon, nor D200.. :)
-----------------------

You are right it's not a D200 - it's better.
I have the D200 and Fuji S5 and the S5 is always in my back.
The D200 is No. 2 :)
curious design [deleted] 12 years ago
I find zigview very useful. After shooting all day through viewfinder you might end up being walleyed and partially-sighted. With zigview you won't get dizzy. It is good if you are wearing glasses, if you take self-portraits (s2). But most of the people buy external flashes/upgrade their camera etc instead of $469 gadget.
V'ron 12 years ago
Hmm., new D200 user here, old lifetime film SLR user, and I can see advantages to real-time view, but its something I can live without, only because I spent 20 years shooting with live view, so its probably easy for me to shout "wimp" at the OP.

Before i got my D200, I dived into digital using a very good point and shoot, the Canon S2 IS. I sort of got used to having instant playback right in my viewfinder and had to re-learn not having this with my D200. Got over it fast, again, because it simply brought me to where I was a year ago when I used film SLR. So I can sort of understand that if you're new to SLR period, how one might miss such a feature.

Toughboy, think of it this way: this forces you to learn composition, and exactly what all those settings will get you, because in film SLR, that's all one ever got. In fact, in the "old days" (now I'm sounding like a crotchety old man, huh?) when you took your first photography course, the recommended camera (and for some profs, required) was something totally manual, like the infamous Pentax K1000 (I had an MX myself). This forced you to simply train your brain to imagine what a certain aperture, shutter speed and depth of field looked like, and after a while, you'd develp the ability to just take a guess at what to go with, should your light meter fail. And on top of all that, none of this was recorded for you in the form of metadata, and further, you didn't see your results until you went to the lab and processed and printed up a contact sheet. So having to do this taught me more about all this than having it all done for me with a totally automatic camera.

I think you're getting a lot of heat on this thread because many people here sort of came up the ranks this way. And i feel for you, because only 8 months with that Canon S2 IS got me used to that feature. But then again, because I spent 20 years not having it, it was a tool, not a crutch, and perhaps that's what its sounding like -- it's sounding like its become a crutch. If you like the tool, you'll get the hang of chimping now and again to confirm that your test shots are getting the effect you were hoping for. But if you NEED the tool, its become a crutch, and my experience is that crutches will fail you at the worst possible time.
tychay Posted 12 years ago. Edited by tychay (member) 12 years ago
My opinions. :-)

Shorter terry: There are actually three sorts of live previews: none of them perform like in your pocket camera. Also, you do realize that the Fuji S5 Pro is a Nikon D200 in every way but name and sensor?
Toughboy....
You'll get used to it...
I just posted this on the D80 group but it seems relevant....
Having taken 20,000 shots on my D70 I would have liked the live pre-view on perhaps 250.... but out of those 200 were probably my 1st 200 shots...

I came to DSLR via film and compact digital..
It just got so I was taking 100 digital shots with a crappy point n shoot for every film shot... although I'd become accustomed to the pre-view in certain situations it was also due to the crappy viewfinder on the CoolPix...
In effect I often used the coolpix as a digital polaroid...

After the 1st 1000 or so shots I forgot the live preview... now its something I miss only occaisionally... (I was taking some pics over a head height fence yesterday and it would have been useful) ... but I honestly believe in 99% of shots you soon don't miss it..


OK, so I end up lying in the mud sometimes ... or guestimating composition but its really not often... but I honestly think its something you got accustomed to and probably largely because of the crappy view finder on your compact... which in many way's forces you to use the LCD...

Once you get accustomed to it it becomes 2nd nature...and indeed you realise that you can't decently take a shot most of the time off the LCD...
photopath 12 years ago
Buy a decent compact - carry them both!
Best of both worlds
I still use my old Ixus for the down on the ground stuff or for occassions when an SLR would be a bit too unsubtle.
dooda 12 years ago
I smiled at this thread. It's been a long time, but I remember scouring my D70 manual looking to see how I can have live preview. Ah the memories.
Ryan Brenizer 12 years ago
Fewer and fewer people are going straight from film to dSLRs, and many have never used a viewfinder at all. It's going to be a more common issue as dSLRs become cheaper for most users than film SLRs ever were.
tychay 12 years ago
Am I dating myself when I say I remember the first time I found out that digital cameras could do live preview?
bunnymonster The aperture preview button is somewhat useful, but frankly with the lens wide open you do not get anywhere close to an accurate idea of what is going to become blurred.

this, i think has to do with the focussing screens on the consumer DSLRs which dont show much difference below f/2.8 (i think that's the limit). the stock focussing screen i have on my old beatup FE2 certainly seems brighter than the d70's with a MF 50/1.8, set at 1.8 and more accurate DOF wise.
m_subro 12 years ago
I am not a pro , still learning. I have a D200 and also a point and shoot click digital. As photographer, i NEVER use the screen as my view finder. I think one can better control the camera and take a good shot at the subject, by using more of the viewfinder than rely on the screen. But thats me.

-- Subroto

www.flickr.com/photos/subro/
coordinated vest [deleted] 12 years ago
@m_subro - not to mention much improved battery life if you are not running around with your LCD on all the time :-)
wickenden 12 years ago
dooda, I remember the same thing with my d70. I had come from a Nikon CoolPix 5700... and so, I figured my d70 would do everything that my 5700 did and more. I was as shocked as ToughBoy above.

I find it interesting the "rules" people have about what you should and shouldn't know or expect. Hell, I expect more than I ever get, and never use most of what I do get.

Whaddayagonnado?
dooda 12 years ago
Yeah, that is kind of funny, like there should be some kind of prescription for what you know before you buy your first Dslr.

Only a few years ago the only people buying dslr's were serioius photographers and business people, so they tended to be knowledgeable and savvy when it came to what to expect. Now it's common for someone to buy a dslr for pictures of their baby and their nephew waterskiing etc. That guy isn't necessarily going to be doing tons of research to figure out exactly what he is and isn't getting.
Ryan Brenizer 12 years ago
Funny note: I just did a portrait shoot and never looked at the LCD once. I didn't even realize it until I ejected the card and said, "I have no idea what these look like." It wasn't a deliberate choice, you just get used to pre-visualization.
hydropeek 12 years ago
imagine how much power you're gonna suck in if your live previewing while taking 4 some pictures per second? The memory/power the camera needs in displaying a 24 fps preview while ur snapping away... hmmm
tychay 12 years ago
@pangalactic gargleblaster:

There could be a number of other issues at play here.

1) The D70 may have a different eye relief (eyepoint) (18mm) (D200: 19.5mm) (Sorry, I don't know the FE2’s, but I heard it’s bad so I expect it’s around the same.)
2) The D70 has less magnification (.8x) vs FE2 (.86x) (D200: .94x).
3) The D70 is APS-C (take (2) above for the D70 and D200 and divide by 1.5 and you have the true magnification.)
4) The FE has interchangeable focusing screens (many with a fresnel type thing going on). Wide apertures primes are very hard to focus without these (especially the spit prism type) or a point source of light to focus on. I’ve noticed that I pay more attention to DoF when shooting wide when using a screen, must be some psychology thing.

*shrug*
stange 12 years ago
@carpe - i've noticed a similar pattern in my own shooting... at home with my daughter i chimp away like crazy.... partly because i'm just playing around, partly because i have immediate access to my EHD and battery charger, mostly because i live with my subject and if i don't get today's shot there will be another one tomorrow

at work i rarely check my LCD, i can't risk missing a shot....especially when shooting toddlers.
Cajie 12 years ago
One of the thing that I realized when I got the D200 is that the playback preview is OFF by default, unlike the D70 which was ON by default.

I am pretty sure I can go into some menu option and change that to ON - but I find that I like leaving it off.

If I want to chimp, I can always hit the Play button - right?

I'd like to think that I can go through a whole shooting session like Carpeicthus without ever looking at the LCD preview. That would be cool.
--kat-- 12 years ago
oh my... just my personal opinion, but ... if you really don't intend to take a picture by looking through the viewfinder (the proper way) and choose to go the chimp route, you really should have not invested in this camera.

I'm also generally a film camera user... I have the D200 but still feel like i'm cheating on my film cameras when I take it out instead.

This just brings a sour taste to my mouth when I walk around and see people chimping.... and so many people taking one hundred lazy shots hoping one will come out decent as opposed to really spending the time composing a shot the way everyone used to do it...

Eh.. again, just my opinion.... Also, like many people have said... ya might want to carry around an extra battary or three if you're going to shoot that way.
auspicious stream [deleted] 12 years ago
Er, uh, anyone here ever heard of a "View" camera?

If after chimping and post processing I can come up with one memorable image, How does that really differ from what Ansel Adams did with a "view camera" and then some calculated manipulation of the original exposure when printing ?

I might take the same photograph multiple times over a period of a few hours or days... the fact that I can look at these images and their data instantly is just a bonus... the shedding of more or less Blood Sweat and Tears is between the artist and their own art... not between them and someone else's...

I must admit, the first time I looked at a dslr, I wondered why the image was not visible on the LCD... My friend at the photo store here tells me it's an almost universal mis-conception...

J
thatcoder 11 years ago
ttt.. debates about a digital SLR with a view finder

lol
LebronPhoto Posted 11 years ago. Edited by LebronPhoto (member) 11 years ago
Time cures everything........

D300 and D3
MOD
notruemeaning Posted 11 years ago. Edited by notruemeaning (moderator) 11 years ago
yep... exactly the right time to bring this thread back to life...

I was tired of hearing " INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER"...

isn't it nice???

"LET THERE BE LIGHT!"

And there was light----



edit to add the corresponding link for those who like short stories:
www.multivax.com/last_question.html
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