(401 to 500 of 598 replies)
The Searcher PRO 12:44am, 31 May 2007
Apparently the jump to "Mark III" did not go as planned. And surprisingly, there was no plan to quickly jump back to "Mark II" if something went wrong.

ouch. Painfully ironic that it happens so soon after a certain Zooomr CEO decried so loudly and publicly about Flickr's lack of restore-ability when a single photo was accidentally deleted. Probably wishing he had such a plan-b of his own, about now.

Not to mention it appears to be the largest single act of mass censorship ever seen online. even if just for a day (and counting.) All those voices. silenced. what a terrible blow to freedom of expression.
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matt Posted 11 years ago. Edited by matt (member) 11 years ago
If it hasn't been approved at what stage is it in today and might I trouble you for the contact information of the office that reviews the patent.

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish...

... and he can call the Patent and Trademark Office to get his own answers.

[though I have a hunch TH knows how to find them perfectly well; he'd never make wild comments about patents without knowing the first thing about them, after all.]
Rev Dan Catt Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Rev Dan Catt (member) 11 years ago
`Pacdog I don't think code is patented, but some of the algorithms can possibly be, I'm no lawyer so I'm go to steer clear away from patents so disregard this sentence.

When people are talking about copying code I think this is the type of thing they are talking about ...

www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=531146544&size=o

Random Example for `Pacdog

Where the code and icon are pretty much identical to the extent that it's unlikely (but aways possible) that the result was arrived at independently.

As mentioned further up the thread the concept of a Set is hardly unique to Flickr far from it, and many other sites have sets and all have their own way of implementing them.

Anyway, I think normally this kind of thing is called Standing on the Shoulders of Giants, which is all fine and good and I can totally go along with, and it helps speed up the development process. When done in a certain way. Of course different people and companies go about it in different ways.

I'm not making any moral judgments here, you just asked for an example (you can go hunt for more if you wish) and I'm giving you one.

Interested to hear an "official" response to SO question though, which was again asked for by Matt, but purely for archival purposes :)

[edit for punctuation]
aback account [deleted] 11 years ago
Egads I can't believe I read all of this.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
Gadzooks, I can't believe that Rev Dan Catt just gave us one.
Brenda Anderson PRO 11 years ago
Gee, I know next to nothing about patents, but I found the status of the patent in question in about 2 minutes.
Rev Dan Catt 11 years ago
/me hands Dshalock a kitten.

(Don't worry shhexy, you're is in the post. I sprayed it pink)
admin
striatic PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by striatic (admin) 11 years ago
Because it's a very unFlickrlike thing to do and a very un-Stewart Butterfield type thing to do as well.

you don't know stewart butterfield. he's an idealist and a pragmatist.

which is to say that he lives in the real world, and tries to make the real world better to the absolute best of his ability [which is to say sometimes he fucks up] .. but i've not yet seen him tilting at windmills, which is what you're suggesting is "flickr-like" .. in my experience here, flickr has never pursued romantic idealism.

which is not to say that romantic idealism, like the kind i see at zooomr, is fundamentally flawed. sometime you need to be a little irrational to stumble upon new opportunity.

but that's never how flickr has operated.

The point is that we can't assume that we can rely on the benevolence of Stewart indefinitely and a patent lasts a long long time.

which is why we've got to do something about patent law .. i agree.

unfortunately putting yahoo at the mercy of patent wielding cadres will do absolutely NOTHING to fix that problem.

See. He did it again.

now pacdog .. you want copied code? there's a bunch of stuff that kris obviously copied and then changed copy, slightly tweaked CSS .. that's obvious, just look at the site elements. but if you want proof that kris actually copy and pasted from flickr, there's evidence on every single flickr and zooomr page.

from zooomr's head section:

var global_kamisama = '382cd089d3ee4f483438fefc314f4b55',
global_auth_hash = '06b06caab8b81b8c65b14fe08a915ea0',
global_auth_token = '',
global_zooomr_secret = '2aa70e37e5829091',
global_nsid = '4165@Z01',
global_name ='striatic',
global_icon_url ='http://static.zooomr.com/avatars/4165@Z01.jpg',

from flickr's head section:

var global_magisterLudi = '74932e2ed2315c4f1308cb14adbab825',
global_auth_hash = 'bc9a5af044a31e5c1e92582cdd43cb54',
global_auth_token = '',
global_flickr_secret = '6d6584b09bbce1f9',
... [extra flickr functionality removed] ...
global_nsid = '34427466731@N01',
... [extra flickr functionality removed] ...
global_name ='striatic'
...
global_icon_url ='https://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/buddyicons/34427466731@N01.jpg?1175312057'

notice any similarities, pacdog?

also, do carefully note the lack of a space between the equal sign and the user name after global_name and also in global icon url. these are the only places where flickr's [sorta messy] code where there is a lack of a space between the equals sign and the variable. in terms of the javascript, the lack of a space is irrelevant to the function .. and yet the lack of a space is exactly duplicated on the zooomr site?

this is beyond coincidental, when you also look at how the variable names are virtually identical.

kris went into the public parts of the flickr source and started copying stuff to use in zooomr. apple+c, apple+v.

why the hell he did this, i have no idea. for one, flickr's nsid stucture only exists as a vestigal organ of the old GNE server structure. the @N01 bit has no practical value. other sites don't use similar structures. and yet kris tate copies the syntax exactly.

to me, it's mind boggling why he would do this, and yet he has. at best, i'd say he was trying to be like a young renaissance artist, learning his craft by attempting to perfectly imitate his master. except copying and pasting code doesn't take nearly that much skill. at worst, you'd say he was working from stolen blueprints.

either way, it's cheap, hacky, and one peek under the hood shows the lack of imagination. with the set icon, and many other interface affectations, you don't even need to look under the hood to see the copying.

and the sad thing is there's other stuff on zooomr that kris did all by himself. some of it is pretty good, other stuff is medicore .. so why the hell was he copying and pasting flickr so closely .. even to the point of copying its mistakes?

i have a number of theories, but again, all speculation. what isn't speculation, however, is that kris tate directly copy and pasted flickr site code in the creation of zooomr.

make of that what you will.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
YAY!

I hope you used toxic paint.
matt 11 years ago
kris went into the public parts of the flickr source and started copying stuff to use in zooomr. apple+c, apple+v.

Wait wait wait.... don't want to jump to conclusions here. I mean, he might be using emacs, in which case it's just highlight and ctrl-y.

I wouldn't comment on copyright implications, but personally I'd hate to be before a university ethics board with the amount of copied code you can find casually poking around Zooomr. I've seen students expelled for a good deal less.
Rev Dan Catt 11 years ago
shhexycorin: I don't know if it was toxic. Being doubly safe I put the kitten in the box first and then sprayed the paint in through a hole, to be sure I didn't breath any in.

(I learned that from an episode of Grangehill).

Better to be safe than sorry.
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striatic PRO 11 years ago
Wait wait wait.... don't want to jump to conclusions here. I mean, he might be using emacs, in which case it's just highlight and ctrl-y.

i stand corrected.

and looking at those bits of the zooomr code, one certainly is reminded of someone copying their homework. rearranging the words very slightly but in some cases not bothering to rearrange at all.
styler* PRO 11 years ago
and yeah I'd love to hear an "official" response to the SO question as well.
Thomas Hawk PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Thomas Hawk (member) 11 years ago
SilentObserver, but you said you worked on the patent issue. Surely you have some idea where it is in progress at this point. In fact, you probably know more about the progress of this patent than your CEO

Thomas I'm absolutely honest with you, once again: I do not know...
And this is my answer.


While I'm surprised that with your having the "job assigment to work with lawyers on this patent," and all, that you now have no knowledge of its status, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this. It would be nice, however, if someone at Yahoo who did know the status of this patent application (I assume that someone there does) were to share that. It would be even nicer to hear someone at least make some sort of public gesture that this patent is not going to be used to sue companies except in the case of counterlawsuits.

Now, to answer your question. I'm going to have to give you the same answer. That I don't know. I'm not a coder and quite frankly couldn't tell you computer code from newspaper type. I can't even figure out the html on my own blog which is why the layout looks so shitty. To the best of my knowledge I'm not aware of Kristopher copying any code.

I also don't really understand coding ethics and all that either. From what I understand much of what is built is as Rev Dan says, built on the shoulders of giants (that's a quote from Ronald Reagan too by the way Rev Dan, originally borrowed by Reagan from Sir Isaac Newton). I'm not sure I'd consider his example of Kristopher creating a border on a photo stealing code for instance. But I don't know shit about coding.

I also don't understand the legalities of code or the ethics of how coders work frankly. I understand that in my world something like pulling a quote from a book and putting it a blog post would be considered fair use even though it's a direct copy as long as the majority of the text of my blog post was not substantially the same.

I do think I know that HQ23 though pretty much copied Flickr's API though in order to make it possible for developers to develop for their platform more easily with the Flickr API which I consider open and not protected per se. But someone correct me if I'm wrong about this. I think that setting standards though for developers is a good thing for both Flickr, Zooomr and even HQ23. I'm not sure for instance that I'd consider copying an open API as copying code in this sense.

And with that kids, it's time for Thomas Hawk to once again go to bed and prepare his strength for yet another day.

Zooom on Baby Zooom on. Love all serve all. RESPECT! The best photographs in the world have yet to be taken... just ask Billy Warhol! ;)

Talk to you all later. And goodnight Sue.
Thomas Hawk PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Thomas Hawk (member) 11 years ago
Oh, and one last thing. Since we are talking about Zooomr and all. We did successfully get 3 new servers online tonight and I think it's made a difference in terms of the performance that some of you have been critical of at launch. You can check it out for yourself here.

I'm sure we may continue to see performance issues as we grow, but we are committed to continuing to add more resources where we can to improve our sites speed and performance. Over time we'll get it right.

That's Beebo Wallace's photo on our homepage if anyone cares.
John Swifty 11 years ago
Always late to the party, i happen to have an interest in things like this

Thomas Hawk

To the best of my knowledge I'm not aware of Kristopher copying any code.

Maybe now is a good time to ask him and get back to us. Should be a simple thing to do, ask him in the morning. If you truly don't know you probably aught to find out.

I'm not sure I'd consider his example of Kristopher creating a border on a photo stealing code for instance

While you're at it, ask Kristoper if he "created" that border. Go on ask him, I'm dying to find out what he said. Then ask him how it happens to look exactually the same, with apparently the same colors in the same places.

I just luv things like this. lol.
The Searcher PRO 11 years ago
Hawk: "I've been doing all of the answering here for a few days."

to say the least. and mostly to questions no one's asked.
Thomas Hawk PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Thomas Hawk (member) 11 years ago
Ok, I haven't gone to bed but I really am now. I just had to share one last pic from Randyman. This is the guy that's printing up a half a million zooomr stickers for us for free. He's now also made us some banners. Very cool. You've got to love it.

beta.zooomr.com/photos/randyman/2410902/

Makes me remember why we're doing this all, because it's fun.
admin
striatic PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by striatic (admin) 11 years ago
I do think I know that HQ23 though pretty much copied Flickr's API though in order to make it possible for developers to develop for their platform more easily with the Flickr API which I consider open and not protected per se.

straw man.

no one, not even flickr staff, has complained about your making the zooomr API compatible with the flickr API.

the complaint was, specifically:

api.zooomr.com/

versus:
api.flickr.com/services/fnord

where the resulting page simply replaces "flickr" with "zooomr" and the result is linking to dead pages that would exist on flickr, but don't exist on zooomr.

this duplication is totally irrelevant to api compatibility.

it has nothing to do with building a compatible api, and everything to do with grabbing flickr code wholesale, and batch replacing the word "flickr" with "zooomr".

which is totally hacktastic, amateurish and leads to dead pages - while signaling either laziness, a lack of imagination or a willful middle finger to the flickr dev team. or all of the above.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
It's good to see the young folk spray cats responsibly these days.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
Looks like we have a rogue CEO. Doesn't know. Doesn't care. Doesn't want to know.

One wonders where the buck stops in that organisation. It appears that it is on the street somewhere between the Thomas residence and the Kris residence. Corporate morality like that made Enron possible.

Thomas Hawk - being a CEO is not just swanning around being self-important. You have to actually run the organisation. That is what the words Chief Executive mean.
Brenda Anderson PRO 11 years ago
pulling a quote from a book and putting it a blog post would be considered fair use even though it's a direct copy as long as the majority of the text of my blog post was not substantially the same.

That may be true on a blog, but I think the minute you start using that quote as part of a product that you are selling... that goes out the window.

At least, that's what cafepress told me when I got a takedown notice for a t-shirt that had a one sentence quote from a book by JRR Tolkein, printed as a caption (with attribution) with one of my own photos.
Thomas Hawk PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Thomas Hawk (member) 11 years ago
Man, ok, I'm still up and it's 2am. I just have to say that forget about everything else, Zipline fucking rocks. I'm loving that thing so much. This really is going to be a hell of a lot of fun. People LOVE it. They can't get enough of it.

I"m probably not going to spend so much time in FC tomorrow even though this thread is about Zooomr and all.

I'll probably make one stop by in if I have time. But even I'm growing tired of the negativity. Come play on Zooomr. People over there are having a seriously good time. This whole thread is such a stark contrast to what I'm getting over there. And I'm probably as guilty as any for engaging you all.

Quotes on tshirts. Iansand reprimanding me about being a CEO. I fucking love it all, don't get me wrong, but it's all getting boring. Eric Costello showed up. The SilentOne showed up. Even Cal showed up. Rev Dan Catt -- my *favorite* fucking character of all on the Flickr show -- showed up. You all ROCK hard. Plus I need to actually process some damn photos and get back into a reasonable rhythm of uploading.

Slip inside the eye of your mind. Don't you know you might find a better place to play. You said that you'd never been, but all the things that you've seen slowly fade away.

So I start a revolution from my bed because it's said the brains I had went to my head. Step outside summertimes in bloom. Stand up beside the fireplace, take that look from off your face. You ain't ever going to burn my heart out....

Her soul slides away. But don't look back in anger, I heard you say.


If none of this last post makes much sense. Don't worry about it. I've had a couple of bottles of wine at this point. And the only thing better than Oasis in my ears right now is Robyn Hitchcock covering Roxy Music.
admin
striatic PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by striatic (admin) 11 years ago
thomas, you're totally bleepin' exasperating me at this point.

such a quote would be considered fair use because it would be used for the purposes of commentary or critique and because it would have no commercial impact on the original work.

copying site code to put on a competitors site isn't about parody, it isn't about critique .. it's about site functionality.

and since you're a competitor it clearly has commercial impact.

you can't just copy and paste the rules of "your world" anywhere you'd like and expect them to fit.

why don't you invite kris over here and get him to explain why he was copying and pasting flickr code? an honest, transparent answer. that's all.
Thomas Hawk PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Thomas Hawk (member) 11 years ago
thomas, you're totally bleepin' exasperating me at this point.

Striatic I'm fucking drunk at this point. Best to continue this line another time.

I love you brother. I'm serious about buying you a drink the next time you come to SF. Whatever non-alcoholic one you'd like. I'd just like to hang out with you a bit. Kind of like how I'd like to hang out with Merkley.

It will all work out guys. Hang in there.

Striatic, work with me to make it better going forward, I'm all for that. I appreciate your committment to all this. And you're fucking smart. And with that I need to stop swearing and drinking and go to bed. I've got to be up in 3 hours to make it in in time for tomorrows market open. I'm serious this time.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
Drunkenness explains much of what has happened at Zzzzzoooommmmrrrrrr over the last few days.

What you should do is get sober and have a long hard think about the way you do business. If flickr were arseholes they could shut Zooomr down tomorrow. Unless you lift your game a less forgiving organisation might. It is not a silly game of trying to be the smartest tadpole in a small pond. It is the real world. Welcome to it.

To put it bluntly, you have talked the talk but your actions reveal you to be incompetent.
admin
striatic PRO 11 years ago
that's cool thomas.

get some sleep.

i'm serious about what i'm saying here .. but just go to bed now and do well at work.
admin
striatic PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by striatic (admin) 11 years ago
and iansand .. thomas is basically saying he's "down" here .. if only temporarily. don't kick a guy when he's down. just. not cool.

i don't think continuing this right now does anyone any good.
John Swifty Posted 11 years ago. Edited by John Swifty (member) 11 years ago
Man, I can't believe you're pretending to get drunk to get out of answering simple questions.

Thomas Hawk

I"m probably not going to spend so much time in FC tomorrow even though this thread is about Zooomr and all.

Because you don't want to have to answer this simple question of has zooomr copied flickers code. I'll say it again:

To the best of my knowledge I'm not aware of Kristopher copying any code.

Maybe now is a good time to ask him and get back to us. Should be a simple thing to do, ask him in the morning. If you truly don't know you probably aught to find out.


You allegedly took out a second morgage throw some funding at zooomr, you call yourself a CEO and "To the best of my knowledge I'm not aware of Kristopher copying any code.". You'd better ask him then. We're all dying to know the Offical Word and you're the Offical (drunk) Spokesman.

I can see the Digg Headline now "Zooomr CEO, last man to find out zooomr copied flickrs html code, css and javascript".

MK III is supposed to be a totally rebuilt from the ground up code. Is that what Kris told you? As it's what you've been saying. If it's totally rebuilt from the ground up, why are vast chuncks of the code the same, as Striatic pointed out? All you need to do is Ask Kris and tell us.

Come on, this isn't about the thread "getting boring", it's about either you know the code is a rip off (hint) or you don't, and it's simple to find out.

Give us transparency Mr Hawk. Go ask Kris if there's flickr code and images in zooomr, tomorrow, when you're sober. Either you ask him and get the answer, which you can tell us. Or you don't want to ask him for fear of the answer.

Waiting for a sensible straight forwards response, can't be too hard.

Edit: Fuckit, Wrote while Striatic posted his post. I'll leave it until tomorrow and if Mr Hawk decides to turn up ee'll pick it up then. Sweet Dreams Everyone
Thomas Hawk PRO 11 years ago
I'll try to come back here one time tomorrow. I'm going to hang out on ZooomrTV though I think most of tomorrow. ZooomrTV, live chat. I love that. Come on by if you want to talk. I'll even take these questions live over there in front of 100 or so Zooomr users on TV. And with that this seriously is my last post of the night, I mean morning, I mean whatever.

I do take all of this very seriously actually though. Wilco's singing in my ear. And Sysiphus calls for yet another day in a few hours. For what it's worth, this thread is one of the more interesting one's I've been involved with and respect to all the Flickr Central admins for not locking it. Especially Sue who I'm really warming up to these days.

Goodnight all.
Thomas Hawk PRO 11 years ago
Maybe now is a good time to ask him and get back to us. Should be a simple thing to do, ask him in the morning. If you truly don't know you probably aught to find out.

I will John. I'm not getting out of anything. I'll be back here. Seriously. I can't ask him now though. Now I'm going to bed. Well, as soon as this Death Cab for Cutie song ends.

Love you all.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
striatic What I have said is true. It seems that Zooomr continues to exist through the good graces of flickr. That is something about which Thomas Hawk should have a long hard think. He has put the continued survival of Zooomr in the hands of a potential competitor. Unless the code is rewritten that will always be the case. If someone does not rewrite the code Thomas Hawk is derelict in his duty. I hope there are no shareholders who may come back to bite him if the place falls over.

Should there be any doubt, corporate governance is one of the things I do professionally. Protecting IP is something on which I keep an eye - it is not a core responsibility. If it suited our commercial interests I would crush a competitor doing what Zooomr has done.

I may appear to be disrespectful of Thomas Hawk (I am - he is a wanker), but there is a real, solid nugget of truth in my comments.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
Awesome news!

I have a sneak peek of Zooooooooooooomr's new marketplace!

Someone suggested Zooomr needed a designer
admin
striatic PRO 11 years ago
night john .. just .. everyone .. please keep things civil and no cheap shots.

thomas says he'll be back later in better condition, so until then we can continue the discussion but i think badgering thomas while he's away doesn't accomplish anything.
admin
striatic PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by striatic (admin) 11 years ago
and ian i get your point and i actually agree with you .. but seriously calling each other "wankers" unless in jest isn't allowed here so i'm telling you to stop now.
Thomas Hawk PRO 11 years ago
Shhexy, that is the best fucking thing I've seen in a long long time. I love my hat. You really are the best. Doesnt' this whole thread remind you of the good old pre DMU days in regular plain old Deleteme. It's so fucking perfect. The only thing we are missing is Vinny and that crazy cat VodkaMax.

And with that I'm really closing the laptop, err. MacBook Pro, this time. Adios Amigos. Sleep tight.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
Can I say "onanist"?
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by ♥ shhexy corin ♥ (admin) 11 years ago
:)

I am sick of the lack of SMS style flirting, to be honest.

On the list are Thomas Hawk, striatic, iansand, ellipse, Pacdog, Brock... More to come.

All the admins are onboard with this. You have 24 hours.

This is categorically non-negociable.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
"Negotiable." Correcting spelling is what passes for flirtation in my world.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
You're wrong, Ian.

The spelling of non-negociable is non-negociable.
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by ♥ shhexy corin ♥ (admin) 11 years ago
From the Flickr Pro-User's Bill of Rights (you need to be a member to see this):

111. The correct spelling of negociable is non-negociable.
iansand PRO 11 years ago
♥ shhexycorin ♥ I love it when you talk dirty.
styler* PRO 11 years ago
show me some hot single men
and i'll get my flirt on corin.

and no brock does not count, we all know he's fallen for you and is off the market :/
iansand PRO 11 years ago
ellipse Pick me!!! Pick me!!!!

Although perhaps we should make sure that our definitions of "hot" are at least slightly congruent. Do pungent farts count?
matt 11 years ago
Depends if you have a lighter, surely.
Dave Gorman PRO 11 years ago
In tonight's performance, the role of Columbo will be played by Thomas Hawk.

columbo.jpg
styler* PRO 11 years ago
Can you cook spicy food?
or a least order really well
iansand PRO 11 years ago
ellipse Only wimps take the seeds out of chillies.
swisskiltbear PRO 11 years ago
Actually, it might even be fun to check out Zooomr, but I can't even get signed up.

The Validation email just never arrives. Yes,the address is active, spelled correctly and no the Zooomr Mail is not in the Spam folder.

So since there is no obvious way to contact Zooomr about it on their site and since I can't sign up again with the same E-mail address or user name, I would give Zoomr a well deserved, solid F (as in FAILED, miserably)
iansand PRO 11 years ago
swisskiltbear Failed? That's harsh. Differently Achieved.
-RobW- PRO 11 years ago
Deferred Success is the current UK fave. Seriously.
Walwyn PRO 11 years ago
All of the nay sayers please post links to your web2.0 apps so I can check them out. Thanks.. Only post a link if it was made or is run by you or you are at least staff there.. Thanks.

This is something that a colleague started back in 1994, but nowadays we work upstairs on this
admin
Brock PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Brock (admin) 11 years ago
I find it hysterical that the more pressure you put on Thomas about the fundamental dishonesty of the origins of his site, the more he faux enthusiastically touts the site and different aspects of it (when he's not super-focussing on the patent thing - which is irrelevant, as it happens, and he brought it up himself):

"Thomas. ANSWER us! Why do you not know if your one and only employee copied code from a competitor to make the site?"

"MAN, Zipline is COOOOOOL, dudes!!!! Is my hip, fake drunkeness (despite flawless spelling and grammar) making you feel sorry for me! Wooooooo! Zoooooomr is such fun!!!!!! Weeeeeeeee!!!!"

A real CEO would be, if they were legally aware even a tiny bit, pretty bloody concerned at the accusations (and proof) displayed in this thread.

A real CEO would already know the answers.

A real CEO would either
a: not post drunkenly in a public forum of 450,000 odd people, using it to flippantly avoid the question
or
b: not pretend to be drunk to avoid the question.
- If you can't answer, then you go away and find the answer and manage it/spin it as best you can. Not make a fool of yourself, and your company by extentsion in a public forum.

I don't buy the "I'm drunk" act. Not for a minute. I appreciate the sentiment in Striatics "leave him be for a bit" as the noble gesture it is, but nothing is stopping Thomas being responsible for his own actions, going to sleep and not saying something he will regret (you'd hope) when he (potentially) sobers up.

The fact that nearly two pages of direct "How much of Zooomr is copied from Flickr" went by before he even came up with his weak 'I have no idea, I don't know coding from one of Eric's bananas when misquoting him' is risible in the extreme.

Come on, Thomas. It took you considerable time after the initial start of accusations of suspicious similarity between the two sites to even acknowledge the many, blunt as all hell, accusations. Your response, "I don't know, I don't understand anything about how my company makes our product.' (essentially) came after 9 hours of deliberation and obfuscation. Genius.

Were you drunk the whole time? Was Kris not available for all of those 9 hours, even though both of you are almost constantly on Zooomr TV?

Is that, really, the best you can do as a figurehead for a company after 9 hours of thinking about serious, ethical accusations as to your business practices: 'I don't know, it's all a bit tricky for a lowly photographer like me'?

I mean. Really?
swisskiltbear PRO 11 years ago
@iansand

Yes, from my point of view, failed! (your mileage may vary)

If I can't even register and the main Zooomr URL resturns an error 500 most of the time, it has indeed failed for me.

Oh and by the way, seriously, I'd love to hear MasterCard's take on the Zoomr logo. *eg*

I see a color change coming there.
500 - Internal Server Error
MOD
lomokev PRO 11 years ago
MemoryMotel / Matt well at lest you not seeing a zooomr is haveing a "hiccup" or "massage"!
admin
♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
Damn, and I went and bought some new patchouli oil especially!
:(
Violentz PRO 11 years ago
Jeez. There should be ONE specific group for everything related to Thomas Hawk and Zooomr.
DaveSinclair PRO 11 years ago
Violentz - what a great idea. Maybe he could even have his own entire site where people could talk about Zooomr. It could be called something stupid like www.zooomer.com maybe?
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♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
*points at the crazy man*
andertho PRO 11 years ago
I'm beginning to wonder exactly who is obsessed with what in this thread.
aback account [deleted] Posted 11 years ago. Edited by aback account (member) 11 years ago
I followed the link blog.zooomr.com/downtime/home in the first comment which led to another link www.zooomr.com/ and following which I found a photo sharing site page which supports most of the regional languages of the Indian subcontinent but not the major national ones. Strange!
Trazy PRO 11 years ago
It's good to see that they also support Portugese (sic).
Jim Skea 11 years ago
Trazy, see here. It must be the only crticism (constructive) that Thomas didn't reply to, so I'll do it for him.

"Thanks for pointing out the mistakes and helping make Zooomr a better site, Jim"

"Your welcome, Thomas"
Fort Photo PRO 11 years ago
andertho , you and me both! :-)))
aback account [deleted] 11 years ago
*imagines KT and THIII having a very candid conversation right now*
MOD
beebo wallace PRO 11 years ago
That's Beebo Wallace's photo on our homepage if anyone cares.
Let's not forget the important information being tossed around in here ...
Kristopher Tate 11 years ago
Guys, Guys, Guys (& gals ;)

Wow, funny that laughably simple things like 404 Pages, SmartSets html class names ("SetCase" & "setLinkDiv") and the javascript VARIABLE NAMES got you guys all up in a huff... Has Flickr & Co. really gotten this pathetic?

Developers use similar naming conventions all of the time to help OTHER DEVELOPERS hack on and develop for their service or API. Without these things, people like steeev wouldn't be able to produce the cool stuff that they do so well.

I look at entire services as APIs -- each page has it's own data that gets called back, and some people like Tantek Çelik have made what IS ON THE PAGE as important or even more than what is inside of the API. (please see: Microformats)

Bottom Line? It's interesting to me that the flickr folks feel so threatened by my small company, Zooomr. Seriously, Grow-up (even a little bit can do big things) -- what ever happened to humble Flickr, or did Stewart not teach you these lessons? :)

At the end of the day, life is what you make of it -- if you choose to get all pissed-off over the small things, you will never see the big stuff to come. Zooomr is that big thing, and I think that team flickr / yahoo! knows this.

Flickr is and has been staffed by some incredible people who have, for the most part, been given a free ride when it comes to competition. If anything, the users bashing in this forum should realize that we're pushing Yahoo! to up their game on flickr -- which is a direct benefit to all who love photo sharing.

In a Pre-Mark III world, everyone was at peace -- and now that Mark III has been launched, why can't we all sit back and enjoy some fine works of photography?

With love and respect,

kristopher

swisskiltbear PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by swisskiltbear (member) 11 years ago
@kristopher Tate

You know why? because some of use can't even register for the site :-)

no validation mail

and there is no official way of asking for help.

Some of us would love to take a look at Zoooomr. Alas, we can't
The Searcher PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by The Searcher (member) 11 years ago
Breath One: "Has Flickr & Co. really gotten this pathetic?"

Breath Two: "with love and respect."

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Kristopher Tate 11 years ago
swisskiltbear, Feel free to personally IM me on GTalk ( kris.tate@gmail.com ) or join others on Zooomr TV. We're here for you and others -- I'm here for you and others. Please let me know.

kristopher
The Searcher PRO 11 years ago
It's gratifying that there's at least one functioning help system available for Zoooomrr customers.
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FlyButtafly PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by FlyButtafly (moderator) 11 years ago
Searcher - Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

That wouldn't be a veiled reference to a certain Sicilian, would it? ;)

(edit: what's with the html today??)
The Searcher PRO 11 years ago
flybuttafly: "veiled". I do not think that means what you think it means.
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♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by ♥ shhexy corin ♥ (admin) 11 years ago
Thanks for the link to Stewart's page there, Kris, I wouldn't have known who you meant otherwise!

The photo helps too.

OHMIGOSH! I can't believe you, like, met him?
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Brock PRO 11 years ago
We're here for you and others -- I'm here for you and others.

Shouldn't you be on your own help forum trying to help people log in to your site? Rather than on your competitors?

At the end of the day, life is what you make of it

Or, of course, it is what you can take from others. I, for one, am completely convinced that the dizzying similarities between the code is merely you trying to make all photo sites written the same to help developers.

Help them do what, though, I'm not so sure.
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sarah.c 11 years ago
Wait. Stewart is real?
Dunstan PRO 11 years ago
Kristopher Tate: "Developers use similar naming conventions all of the time to help OTHER DEVELOPERS hack on and develop for their service or API."

How does your use of Flickr's set icon possibly help "other developers" hack your site?

(And following The Searcher's lead: I do not think "With love and respect" means what you think it means.)
swisskiltbear PRO 11 years ago
ROFL,

good to see that the Zoomr team is on the one IM system I do not use. :-) Probably also the most exotoc one at that. Of course using a popular IM like Yahoo Messenger, MSN or AIM would have been much to easy *eg* ( I have plenty of contacts on all of these but until today I had never even heard of GTalk and I am not exactly an internet newbie)

Why am I not surprised?

Oh, and also not surprisingly, Zooomr TV isn't working either. all I get get there is tons and tons of "undefined string" messages and empty windows. Useless.

Neither is Zooomr itself for that matter.

Good luck in getting more members if assistance is only available through very exotic channels and the site is this hard to get to.

I can just see TH3's mega rant if something even remotely similar happened here on flickr. His posts would be of truly epic magnitude. :-)

I'd suggest to the mighty TH3 to dial everything down more than a few notches until he has a site that's a) working and b) has t least some sort of help availavle throu an obvious and working channel.
socks and sandals 11 years ago
Wow, both zooomr personalities have been in here and neither of them has answered SilentObserver's simple question.
Thomas Hawk PRO 11 years ago
Hey all,

A couple things.

First off, sorry about getting so hammered last night. I've been under an enormous amount of stress the past few weeks and last night my usual few pops of wine turned into two bottles of wine. It's not generally how I prefer to represent myself. I should have gone to bed when I said I was going to at midnight instead of opening up that second bottle and hanging out on the internets. Instead I have a few posts archived for all time that I'd prefer I hadn't made.

Secondly,

I shot this link to Kristopher via IM this morning and he's chosen to respond to it. We still haven't talked about it as I'm working at my day job right now but I'm sure we'll talk about it more later.

I don't and can't begin to understand how coders work personally or what's acceptable practice and what's not. I do know that the end product of Zooomr though is very different (in my opinion than Flickr). Subscribing to threads in groups, portals, info tags, zipline, filtering ranked photos by friends family, how we geotag, marketplace, search by color, smartsets, search photos by camera model, etc so many other features and even more features coming in the weeks ahead.

Kristopher says that some things are conventional naming standards. And commonly used. Does it bother me that a border on a photo on a set might be slightly similar to Flickr? Actually it doesn't. Maybe it should and maybe I should understand these things better but it doesn't.

Frequently I will see people post photos on Flickr that are taken from the exact spot where I shot a photo. Sometimes they are different but stylistically the same. Sometimes they are titled things lilke "A Tribute to the Hawk" other times not. But this actually happens a lot. I see photos like this all the time.

You can read the comments I've left in both of the photos above to understand that I'm actually flattered that someone would take a shot in a similar location or similar stylistic fashion than I did. I could literally pull up dozens of other photos as examples.

Their photo are not the same photo as my photo. Digitally speaking they can't be. But conceptually they are actually quite similar. Now when I see photos taken that have been modeled after my own. I don't get angry at these people or call them copycats. In fact many of these people are my friends.

Instead I celebrate this thing that we've got called photography. And the fact that we can make beautiful images with these boxes of light.

I think getting Kristopher in here to explain his view on things represents that I'm not afraid or ducking any question that you all are throwing at me.

After this though I'm still willing to answer questions, but I'm going to come by here once a day to answer them and then leave. And I won't be hanging out here all night as much fun as it can be. I'd rather hang out in DMU personally on Flickr, but I've also got to put some work into DMU on Zooomr now.

Yes, I know, I've joined a group on Zooomr with the exact same name as a group on Flickr, but, well, I started the group on Flickr (with others). Hanging out in Central just is boring and tedius mostly. I do like interacting with the Flickr Staff of course. Especially Rev Dan. But I'm not going to put the hours in here that I have the past few days. I'll still stop by this thread as I've mentioned but I've got a lot of other things going on. A day job, four kids, Zooomr, Zipline, Groups on Zooomr, DMU, my photography (I'm seriously slacking here right now), interacting with my friends, my new video show that I'm starting, ZooomrTV, my blog, my contributions to Wired's Geek Dad, etc. etc.

It's been real folks. I liked Corrin's photo the best. I will be back, but not every five minutes.
MOD
FlyButtafly PRO 11 years ago
Searcher - perhaps "veiled" was the wrong word to use, even if it was meant a little sarcastically. ;)

Anybody want a peanut?
Thomas Hawk PRO 11 years ago
Wow, both zooomr personalities have been in here and neither of them has answered SilentObserver's simple question.

Actually I did, the answer is I don't know. I suspect that code could have been copied and than reworked to make it into something different. I think Kristopher would seem to indicate that this is a practice that is common in software development. But I'm not 100% sure with how all of that works.

Now, SilentObserver also answered my question about the patent issue that he worked on with an "I don't know" as well.

Now how about someone at Yahoo come in and address that? Seems fair to me.
socks and sandals 11 years ago
My point really was that KT came in here, and I'm guessing it was because of that constant question, and didn't answer it. It would be nice to know.. there's nothing truly criminal about reusing publicly available HTML, CSS, and JavaScript code.. it just doesn't sit well with people when it's so obvious. Now, I'm not saying that KT should have reused the code and then reworked it so much that it wasn't obvious. What I'm saying is that zooomr originally appeared to me to be a proof-of-concept (I can still remember the first digg post about it). Now that it's out of POC stage, it should be a rewrite and there's shouldn't be any code lifting.
mojolicious Posted 11 years ago. Edited by mojolicious (member) 11 years ago
I want an (chief) executive précis of this thread on my mahogany desk, yesterday.
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‮‭‬bees‬ PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by ‮‭‬bees‬ (admin) 11 years ago
:)
Myles! PRO 11 years ago
*takes one of Thomas Hawk's photos, rotates it, calls it his own*
mojolicious 11 years ago
*takes one of Thomas Hawk's photos, rotates it, calls it his own*

'Swivels', surely.
Dunstan PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Dunstan (member) 11 years ago
Thomas Hawk: "Frequently I will see people post photos on Flickr that are taken from the exact spot where I shot a photo. [...snip...] Their photo are not the same photo as my photo. Digitally speaking they can't be. But conceptually they are actually quite similar."

Well in this instance the equivalent would be if someone saved your photo from Flickr, rotated it 180 degrees, posted it as their own, then left a comment on your original image saying "Hey, my photo's better!"

What would happen if someone did that, Thomas? Would you "celebrate this", or would you be a little annoyed.

That's surely something you can understand "100%".

[edit: bugger, we all said the same thing.]
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♥ shhexy corin ♥ PRO 11 years ago
I'd best make some popcorn...
jamesbarnes 11 years ago
And for a moment of reflection: We've reached 480-some posts about a sickly website whos publicity is subsidized largely through the benevolence of the flickr staff.

I don't see anything about zoomr that really threatens flickr in a substantive way, but I still find myself wondering: what line does zoomr have to cross before they're forced to breathe without the benefit of flickr's air?
aback account [deleted] 11 years ago
Wait, they'd also have to caption it, "Universally the best photo taken of this scene" and sell it for money.
The Searcher PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by The Searcher (member) 11 years ago
I'm a little distressed that TH both:

A: equates standing in the same spot to take a picture as somehow analogous to the reproduction of a product in its near-entirety.

B: has in the back of his head someplace lodged at least enough to use as a flawed analogy, that once he's taken a photo of something, that it marks the beginning and end of originality for that spot on the planet.

I suppose we really won't know if Flickr has indeed really gotten this pathetic. Until we see it reproduced in zooomrvision.

[dunstan: not only would it have to be rotated and proclaimed better, it would also have to be difficult or impossible to access and sometimes disappear completely for days at a time.]
teh resa PRO 11 years ago
I signed up for a zooomr account about a year ago, along with 23 photo sharing and other sites. I only uploaded one photo to zooomr and have since forgotten about it, including the open id password and username.

Anyway, since I have a vested interest, I still want to know why public domain designation was recently set as a default for all new uploads. Though I realize it has since been changed I would still like to know why it was chosen in the first place. I think TH's answer (on page 2 or 3 of this thread) was that he didn't know and that Kris did it.

Flickr is and has been staffed by some incredible people who have, for the most part, been given a free ride when it comes to competition.

Actually, I think Stewart himself said something to that effect, either in this forum or somewhere else. He said something like: when Yahoo asks about the market, the nature of the competition, how much of the market share we have.... they get frustrated because I have to tell them that its 100%.....Apologies if I've misquoted that, its written somewhere but I'm not sure where.

Don't let that be a diversion from the unanswered questions above. Also, its not an endorsement of using this flickr forum to promote the competition.
CircusDogs 11 years ago
I don't and can't begin to understand how coders work personally or what's acceptable practice and what's not.

That's a very strange position for the CEO of a software company to take.

Your analogy of someone taking a photo in the same location or style would be appropriate if Kris looked at Flickr for inspiration and then independently designed a similar site. In software engineering, this is called clean room design.

Contrary to what socks and sandals said earlier, it's illegal to copy someone else's code and reuse it for your own site. Source code is a written work that's protected by copyright laws.

I suspect that Kris started with a lot of Flickr code in the beginning and modified it as he went along. He dodged the whole question here, but perhaps you can get a straight answer out of him. The trouble with this approach, however, is that you never really get away from the original code. There's probably too much code in Zooomr at this point for Kris to easily tell how much is still Flickr's code and how much it's been modified.
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Stewart PRO Posted 11 years ago. Edited by Stewart (admin) 11 years ago
Best comment in this thread so far? Emdot, with "good lord".

Kris, since you showed up, and since I've gotten a few dozen requests to post in this thread, I'll bite this once, and then I'm out. Sorry this is so long, but I had a hard time summarizing. If you want the punchline, you can skip the next 13 paragraphs ;)

We (the people who work on Flickr) are not "scared" of Zooomr. Personally, I'd be astonished if Zooomr (without a radical change) is even around in two years. I don't mean that to be offensive, and I've tried to offer honest, constructive advice to Thomas, but it's my best business-hat-on estimate of the potential and therefore I've never had a moment of doubt in thinking that Zooomr poses zero competitive threat to Flickr.

And I have no problem with riffing on other ideas that others got out there first. My favorite analogy to software development and product design is music: it's possible to be entirely original in a context where there pretty much every chord progression, every rhythm, every melody and every harmony has been done before, even if it is combining influences and whole elements from those who influence you.

We've done that on Flickr all the time, and I and others have praised those who influenced us: delicious' use of tagging, geoblogger's lights-on moment of geotagging on a map (why we hired Dan), Google's approach of use implicit user behavior to create searchability, the early pioneers of ajax and DOM manipulation (of which our own Eric Costello was a star), and so on.

And I have a profound respect for others in our same space and their various approaches to photo sharing, photos as communication, systems which allow the more artistic photographers to present their photos just the way they want, etc. Both those that came before, and those that came after:

Smugmug has been around since before Flickr and I've acknowledged publicly dozens of times that they run an excellent service. I have even recommended it to people who were more on the pro or serious amateur side and for whom Flickr didn't quite fit the bill.

When Bubbleshare first launched, I was in awe (and quite jealous) of their simplicity - no signup required, beautiful, elegant UI. Great features that everyone could understand.

23hq is pretty close to Flickr in many ways, but had a really interesting emphasis on storytelling which is a direction we've always felt we didn't do a good job in and something that perennially comes up as area we should build out.

Zoto's recent redesign with all ajax photo pages was really cool and well done - quite zippy and something that created a great experience for photo uploaders and viewers.

And Fotolog, which has also been around since before Flickr, is the ultimate stripped down social photo site: one look at any photo page and anyone can get exactly what it is and why them might want to use it (something which we've always struggled with).

More recent products, like Phanfare (excellent end-to-end simplicity and power, more oriented towards family sharing) and Picasa's Web Albums (blazing fast photo loading and totally resizable photo slideshows) do a great job as well.

I could go on -- and there's even more stuff outside of the photo sharing domain that influences me (I'm sure everyone in the office would love it if I could shut up about Facebook) -- but the point is, it's a great big world. There are so many different directions to take things, and many paths to success.

Right now, around 1% of global internet users use Flickr. If we got to 5%, that would be huge. It's not going to be for everyone, and if someone is not going to be happy using Flickr, I'm totally in support of them using whatever it is that they like better. I'm very confident in what we offer, and I'm sure we'll continue to grow and prosper and get better.

So, that was really long. And anyone who read it might wonder why I said all that :)

I don't care about copying chunks of code. I agree that mimicking the API is actually a good approach for everyone (other services, developers, us, users). I don't even care about the design, layouts, etc., that are copied.

Along with that stuff, you've (inadvertently?) replicated two of the biggest mistakes we've ever made and which we've spent years working to change (still not done yet), one on the tech side and one on the product side, so I can't say I think it's a good idea. Other stuff, like reproducing the tagline on the home page --
"The best way to store, sort, search and share your photos." versus "Universally the best way to share, search, store, and sort your photos online."[1]
-- just makes me shrug.

It does, however, drive me nuts that you guys clearly take the influence and then blast us every chance you get. It drives me even more nuts that you come here talking about respect (while calling us pathetic) and then do all kinds of underhanded stuff to cause controversy: you (Kris) have been dishonest in talking to Techcrunch in order to score points with the "Flickr won't give me an API key" stuff (you know very well that we've been waiting for you). Thomas regularly writes up deliberately[2] misleading stuff about us, presents his conjecture as fact and then trumpets it all around the blogodiggosphere.

And even that wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't seem like you think that's a path to success. It's not. You can't win that way. You have to deliver: there are all kinds of variables and randomness and happenstance that goes into success, but you also have to offer a great product.

Right now, from what I've seen, most of Zooomr is either missing or broken. And that's fine - we all go through it. But while you get it together, (Thomas) STFU about how Flickr doesn't innovate (I don't need to count to know we've released more new features over the last year than Zooomr has), about how we go home at 5pm (we don't), or how we're evil (we're not). The relentless Flickr comparisons, the slamming, hyping up the dreams ... none of that is necessary. It's destructive. And what you don't seem to get is that it doesn't even help you at all.

Having said all that, I absolutely believe that there is always room for more. I hope you do find your own path and create something cool. I've been in this (internet/software) business for over a decade and I'm sure that we are still just at the very beginning -- we haven't seen anything yet.

One of my personal missions in life is to help people express themselves creatively because I think that the expression of human creativity is one of the things that gives purpose to the universe. In one sense, I think that's what we're here for. And that mission applies to you two as well. Letting go of the Flickr-fixation will help you achieve all the stuff you're dreaming of, and actualize that potential. And it will also eliminate the hostility you're generating from the people on this thread and elsewhere (with an added bonus of better karma).

And there you - I think I've said my piece (unfortunately in TH-like prolixity) and you can take it for what it's worth. Carry on.

[1] See also, for example, the description from the meta tags:
Zooomr is almost absolutely the best online photo sharing application in the world. See and share photos the world over, securely and privately show photos to your friends and family, or even blog the photos you take with a cameraphone.
versus
"Flickr is almost certainly the best online photo management and sharing application in the world. Show off your favorite photos to the world, securely and privately show photos to your friends and family, or blog the photos you take with a cameraphone."
[2] In life, I try hard to not attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance, but I simply can't believe that Thomas can read and write at his demonstrated level while not being deliberate in the FUD-spreading.
benrobertsabq PRO 11 years ago
Well, if I compare the substance and tone of Stewart's response with Thomas Hawk's, I know who seems more to be speaking in good faith. And that means a lot to me.

PS - I've been resisting the urge to just say "PWND!!" So uncivilized.
babyjesusiscrying 11 years ago
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sarah.c 11 years ago
I wish I could fave a comment.
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hanni PRO 11 years ago
Feature request.
admin
hanni PRO 11 years ago
I would like to now fave the feature of auto-toning down all caps.
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