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*** Megacolon / MC. What is Megacolon?

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jojo79 is a group administrator jojo79 says:

This thread will explain what Megacolon is including symptoms and possible treatments. This advice is NOT a substitute for Veterinary advice. please always consult your Vet!
5:25AM, 7 November 2013 PDT (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

Medirabbit on megacolon and its differential diagnoses

(ie what it could be, if it's not megacolon)

there are a lot of other possibilities to rule out before megacolon is diagnosed. but we can help with those too. so take the time to read through this article from medirabbit if you think your bunny may suffer from megacolon.

www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Differential/mega_diffe...

an older scientific study from 1995 but still relevant. quite technical

www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Mechanical_diseases/meg...
Originally posted 72 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 72 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

it's very important to check for other things like coccidia or dietary issues before going on to fully diagnose megacolon. however even these are frequently overlooked by vets and we've had some successes picking up missed coccidia and being able to recommend and suggest treatment for these bunnies, whose guts have then normalised and they've not been megacolon bunnies at all! other successes have included dietary adjustments which again have normalised poops that have been troublesome for a long, long time.

both these things are fabulous because it's great to find out that your bunny is not megacolon and his condition is reversible.

however, mc bunnies themselves *are* prone to repeated gut infections and strong reactions to certain food types, so it's possible to have for example, coccidia and mc, or be eating an unhelpful diet - and be a megacolon bunny.

so bring your suspicions of mega colon and/or long term gut issues here for support, advice and help, for both you and your veterinarian.
Originally posted 72 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 72 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

we have also noted that the great majority of the bunnies we've encountered on our facebook group so far (50 members) with diagnosed mc are MALE. this is apparently true of cats with mc too. predominately male! so again are genes playing a part?
72 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

at the time of writing,megacolon bunnies often dont live past the age of 5. in fact the majority are thought to die much younger with the condition going completely undetected and undiagnosed and they usually simply die from classic rabbit problems diagnosed as 'stasis' or 'bloat' 'anorexia' or more rarely undetected gut infections. because their immune systems dont seem to work as well as non mc bunnies, this also means they can more easily fall prey to opportunistic illnesses like e cuniculi or mites/pasturella etc. these in turn can be more serious for them, often with recurring bouts (or fatality) despite treatment.
Originally posted 72 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 39 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

megacolon bunnies can have very varied nutritional needs and their diets often require extra protein, or extra green foods to help with motility. this is thought to do with the way their guts use the food that they eat. so each megacolon bunny has to be treated very much as an individual and it's a matter of trial and error to find the right balance for that bunny. also it can vary as they age. beau for example has had to have a much 'wetter' (more greens etc) diet after the age of 4 when his gut began to really slow down.
Originally posted 72 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 72 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

so what is megacolon? why would you suspect it?

the FECALS of a mega colon bunny will tend to be significantly bigger than a normal bunny's poops. also they are usually oval in shape (rugby ball shaped) rather than round.

the CECOTROPHS of a mega colon bunny are very different from the classic 'bunch of grapes' tiny small shiny segments all clumped together in a normal bunny, which can smell pleasantly 'fruity'. mc cecotrophs can be literally huge. they tend to present as a long sausage/torpedo shaped thing (up to an inch long is common) and the segments within them are much larger than the tiny bunch of grapes ones. it is generally not as shiny either (healthy mucous). it often has a tarry appearance and they smell much stronger than normal cecos and rather unpleasant, almost like a carnivore's poops.

photos are on the following link page here www.flickr.com/groups/bunnyloversunite/discuss/7215763741...
Originally posted 72 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 72 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

in adult years (usually 3+) stasis can become a really regular feature and a serious problem.


mossbinky says:

there comes a point when a bunny is impacted in stasis that feeding is not recommended at all. in fact feeding can cause bloat at this point. what's really needed is lots of sub cut fluids AND oral fluids (preferably with a bit of MANUKA HONEY in to encourage more drinking and help the gut, OR if they're eating then lots of herbs (but often they wont eat herbs even). and on top of that the thing to then do is give either lactulose or even better in my experience of this with beau's frequent stasis from megacolon is to use Miralax, 1tsp in a shot glass of warmish water and syringed in orally. and dont forget metacam (rather than opiods which can slow the gut). even if they dont seem in pain, when that poop tries to get moving, it is probably going to hurt. and dont forget either ranitidine (zantac) for bunnies who are anorexic or cisapride to get the gut moving too, but IT HAS TO BE A FULLY HYDRATED GUT to really move without causing damage or too much pain. and until that gut moves, they will not want to eat much. it's completely understandable, they dont want to stuff themselves with more food. so cut back on the feeding if a bunny is in stasis, keep it very very watery and wet and warm if at all. imagine would you want to eat if you knew you couldnt poop? you certainly wouldnt want someone force feeding you.
Originally posted 68 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 39 months ago.

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ladylagomorph76 says:

Will do! He's eating right now, again. Timmy. He eats ever so slowly. But that's his habit. I have to go by the store in a bit for Simethicone, is it the Miralax that is OTC? Or do I ask the vet tomorrow? I have fresh apples from the tree, I can get fresh juice.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

yes miralax is a human stool softener available in pharmacies without RX. it's almost flavourless but good to add a bit of flavour to it. only a little bit of apple juice mixed in, just to make sure he drinks the water.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

you should be able to get ranitidine over the counter too as Zantac maybe? tablet form which can be ground down and mixed with water.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

zantac is good for two reasons.
1. it is protective to the anorexic rabbit's gut especially when taking in other meds.
2. it is mildly a motility drug too so will help with that.
Originally posted 68 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 68 months ago.

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ladylagomorph76 says:

Do you know how much? I don't want to overdose him.
68 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

We used to give Benji 1ml twice a day and he was about 3.5kg (7.7lbs). That was in liquid form that we got from the vet so no idea how that relates to tablets I'm afraid. We also stopped giving him it as we found that for him giving it along with the domperidone (also a gut stimulant) was too much and made him uncomfortable. But when we checked with the vet she said that was unusual and its fine to give them together. The main reason he had it was to protect his gut from ulcers with all the metacam he was having but as we always give it when he'd eaten (or syringe fed if needed) that reduced the risk some anyway.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

my vet's Zantac (ranitidine) doseage for horatio for GUT MOTILITY and as a protectant while he is anorexic for his gut) is 10mgs twice a day. horatio weighs just under 3kgs.

this is a tablet which i crush up and mix with water and syringe into him.

this works out to dose of zantac/rantitidine of approx 7mgs/kg bid (twice daily).
Originally posted 68 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 68 months ago.

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ladylagomorph76 says:

I had a long conversation with our vet Friday. Fudge's tummy had been sensitive in her cecum area the afternoon before she passed away. She always had over produced cecals, and it had gotten gradually worse, as time went by, despite rigid diet restricions. They left wet stains if she left them on their blankies. They were grainy and misshapen at times. In Bandit's first xray his gut was empty, but cecum enlarged. In his last xray, it was extremely enlarged and engorged. He had not overproduced cecals, but he had produced mucus since he lost his sister in January. At first we treated him for coccidia, but that failed to cure the mucus production, even when the coccidia was under control. He also had megacolon, or "cow pile" (as some in the US call it) fecal pellets. He and his sister would now be five years old.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

4 years is from my experience (and the mc group on facebook) when megacolon really starts to flare up and become a problem. so this makes sense. i wish we had known for certain sooner and could have helped bandit before it got this bad. any bunny getting past the age of 5 is doing really well with diagnosed megacolon. 6 is something of a record and we still have one of that age on our fb group. thanks for posting this pam.
68 months ago (permalink)

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ladylagomorph76 says:

You are welcome. I hope it helps somebun.
68 months ago (permalink)

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ladylagomorph76 says:

Can megacolon be in both the intestine and cecum, or in one or the other?
68 months ago (permalink)

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Bunnygirl - all soft and fluffy! says:

The age range fits with Harvey as well, he was really healthy until he was 4 or 5 and then it was one bout of what we thought was straight forward stasis after another. Now, in hindsight I remember problems with his cecum but we never really thought too much of it at the time.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

both pam. some vets call it Megacecum and think it only affects the cecum, but it makes no sense to me when i see mega cecals and mega fecals....so maybe my 2 boys have had 'megacolon' rather than just megacecum. it's an area that 's still under discussion and investigation with vets. for a long while they didnt believe it existed, but things are changing and moving on, you know. i still wish there was less resistance to it.

yes harvey was the same sort of age too when it got bad. but remember, many bunnies die of it young and undiagnosed. we think mainly females as we see very few older females with it. most of our group are all MALES! so it's either that they cant handle it as well and die earlier, or females are less pre-disposed to it. we think two of beau's daughters with his colouration died of it young. butterfly at 3 days, and lottie at about 3 months, both died suddenly and overnight with no warning. however, the boys here, harvey, bandit and beau all had a good 4 years before it really got to them, horatio is benefitting from what i learned with beau and i hope many more bunnies will do so in the future too. ie best to get in there early with motility drugs on a daily basis as we start to get subtle signs of it, before things become serious. impaction is the most common acute form of it, and also the most serious and needs specific care to cope with it and pull a bunny through. beau got through several impactions but he was tough as old boots and i went a long way and a 6 hour round trip, to find a specialist vet who taught me how to deal with part of it (neil, bunnygirl), the rest i figured out with my own vet and by making dietary changes, giving sub cuts, really really watching him carefully for any changes, sometimes overdosing when things were critical and by putting beau onto cisapride daily and **keeping him on it** even when he seemed to be well again.

he needed pharmaceutical help with keeping that gut moving after the age of 4. if i took him off he'd get very sick again. i wish i had put him on it earlier but i didnt know enough about it then - i am sure it would have avoided a lot of his gut infections when he was younger, i strongly believe this. and most of all, all along i have been blessed to have a young, brave, non egotistic, open-minded and kind-hearted vet in london too, who went along with us on this steep learning curve.
Originally posted 68 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 68 months ago.

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Bunnygirl - all soft and fluffy! says:

Yep Neil got us through some tough impactions too - the man is amazing, kind, gentle, understanding and he respects bunny owners who are keen to look after buns at home. he did everything for us with Harvey and its only because of his care that we had as long as we did.

I think I said somewhere else that it is every single one of these horrible events that teaches us more and more about bunny meds and makes us all better bunny parents - I know I am different with ours now because of Harvey.

We have all learnt the hard way Dani havent we? Its awful to lose our babies this horrid disease but thankfully we do learn and the meds get better.
68 months ago (permalink)

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ladylagomorph76 says:

Thank you. That's what I figured, but wasn't sure.
68 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

we sure have learned the hard way bunnyrabbitgirl!

but, i am so proud of what we did learn that beau did *not* die of megacolon. that was a huge huge achievement and living proof that you can manage this condition if you take the bull by the horns and try stuff. my aim now is to hopefully keep horatio, beau's son, much longer because of this. let's see if he can grow older than 7 with megacolon and really do something amazing!

again here's the facebook group if anyone wishes to join and learn about it or if they suspect they may have a megacolon bunny, or if they simply have a bunny who keeps getting repeat stasis episodes that are hard to resolve, or continual gut issues. we have 73 members now, which for a rare condition and a new group is heartening. www.facebook.com/groups/megacolonbunnies/
actually you cant see it as it's a private group but anyone wishing to join just flickrmail me or email me at mossbinky@yahoo.com NO VETS ALLOWED ON THAT LIST. lay person privacy is paramount.
Originally posted 68 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 58 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

FINALLY a new study done this year by the university of bologna, italy confirming megacolon in EnEn gene rabbits (english white spot variant). photos are of rabbit intestines but of huge significance as you can clearly see the difference in the colon size in the megacolon bunnies (like beau was). www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.009...
Originally posted 64 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 64 months ago.

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bunners76 says:

That is very interesting! I can see the two that look like Fudge and Bandit, the En/En and en/en. Bunners and Oreo look like the En/en bunnies. Little Dipper is like the En/en ones! Thank you for posting this.
64 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

I'm having Daddy print out two copies of that article. One for our files, and one for our vet!
64 months ago (permalink)

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LoveSomeBunny says:

I haven't seen it yet but it sounds very interesting. So good that they finally have more information on it
64 months ago (permalink)

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joycekurzatkowski says:

I have an older angora rescue bunny . He kept getting stasis, wich I have learned to manage at home . He was diagnosed with intestines 10 x the normal size. Does anyone know of any treatments I can give daily so that he can avoid painful stasis
Originally posted 59 months ago. (permalink)
joycekurzatkowski edited this topic 59 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

hi joyce, sorry to hear about your bunny.

the main thing is to keep the gut motility up and the hydration good and the pain levels down.

so daily metacam for pain and anti inflammation. cisapride for gut motility, every day especially in an older bunny, and make sure he is getting plenty of hay and fibrous green foods/ herbs etc, to keep the gut contents soft so he can pass them. do his poops come out big and oval? how old is he? and could you post a photo of him as i'd like to see his coloration to see if he fits the normal megacolon colouring too (which is genetically influenced like the condition). thanks.
Originally posted 59 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 59 months ago.

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joycekurzatkowski says:

I can send a photo later he is mostly beige and variations of blonde to beige
He has only been diagnosed with huge intestines
He doesn't leak anything his poops r always small because he is small
They r slightly oval shaped. Most of the time he is doing well
Running playing. Every 2-3 months he will go into stasis
I catch it nearly before it starts last 3-4 days and he passes all
Poops. And then he is fine
Mossbinky have u ever heard of this???
59 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

joycekurzatkowski:

What country are you in? My previous bunny had a very rare intestinal condition and would have regular bouts of stasis. He was prescribed twice daily metacam, domperidone and zantac. Even then he would still get bouts of stasis but much less frequently. Domperidone is not available in some countries so as mossbinky says cisapride is the more common drug given. Also try to get him to eat as much hay as possible and get plenty of hydration (if he doesn't drink much water try giving wet herbs). I'd also say cut out any treats you may give and also don't give veggies that can cause gas (so things like cabbage, broccoli, kale, etc). In fact, can you list out his current diet please?
59 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

good idea list his current diet for us joyce like fordster says and do let us know what country you are in because it matters a lot when it comes to meds.

and photos of those poops would also be really helpful! as well as of him, himself.

(fordster did benji used to do oval poops? i cant remember, sorry.)

if it's megacolon then yes i've heard of it - i have had two megacolon bunnies.

but can you also tell us how old he is joyce?
59 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

Yes Benji did oval shaped poops.
59 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

Bump
52 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

thanks pam i've replied on the other thread. i dont think it's mc, it's probably weaning gut problems.
52 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

mossbinky:

We've never had a bun that young....so I wasn't sure. But i knew you'd know!
52 months ago (permalink)

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signsofautumn1 says:

mossbinky:
Hi, I just found this megacolon group and I am so happy for all the discussions. I have a 3 yo. Bunny that looks like 90% of the mega colon group. No doubt it's genetic. I'm looking for long term treatment. My bun is in a 4 day bout right now and Cisapride isn't working this time. I'm getting very scared. Lots of gas meds, Metacam and all the fresh greens he wants, but he doesn't want the greens. I can normally give him dandelion and his favorite carrots tops and cilantro and he'll eat a little but not this time. Any advice? Thank you
48 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

Have you been in to see the vet? (I'm sure you have). Fluids are very important!
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

yes like pam says probably IV fluids needed now because of it being day 4. cisapride wont work if it's underdosed and nor will metacam so both those have to be at the high ends of doseage. pain in this condition is underestimated enormously, and 3 years is the sort of age we see an increase in megacolon induced stasis episodes. you should really take him for IV fluids asap. if you want to join the megacolon group on facebook please 'friend' Clint Dinkums and he'll add you to the list there. there is a lot of action on that list specifically for this condition.
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 48 months ago.

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signsofautumn1 says:

mossbinky:

Hi I have a bunny in crisis right now. He is on his countless number of GI stasis. I think he's had at least 20 bouts and he's three yo.
I brought him to a wonderful rabbit vet. My bunny has lost a pound and a half since the end of August. My vet dosed with Cisapride 0.2 ml and Metronidazole (safest rabbit antibiotic). My vet has never suggested an antibiotic until my bunnies weight loss and constant stasis. I gave in and trusted my vet. I need advice on what to do at this point. BTW, My bunny Sprinkles is the typical tri- colored mustache bunny. They seem to carry this gene for megacolon.

He's 4 days with no BM
Some urine
Dosed with Cisapride
Dosed with Metronidazole
Giving 8ml of water every 12 hours
10 ml of critical care every 8 hours
Minimal belly massage due to Sprinkles trying to fight and run
I am also giving 0.4 ml of some thicken on a varied schedule.

No pain meds. Vet wouldn't give me any Metacam. I think I'll insist tomorrow morning.
Sprinkles is grinding his teeth so loud I can hear it in another room when it's quiet.

I wanted to let you know what I was doing so I can get any more nformation or advice that might save his life.
This is the longest it has ever gone on. I'm scared to death of organ failure. He doesn't have l my. Please tell me what I can do more of. What's most important: food, water, gas meds, etc.
Please help us. Thank you
Maryann Farrell
48 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

Dani, Mossbinky, is in the UK. I emailed her to check this thread. We've had two Megacolon bunnies, but didn't realize it until it was to late. Our vets were valiant in their efforts. Metacam, cisapride, (something else I am at a loss to recall, a syringe pain med). And my hubby gave subq fluids. The vet saw Bandit every other day. Every effort was made with both Fudge and Bandit. I will let Dani give you further advice when she logs on in the morning. Oh...keeping him warm is of utmost importance, too. Best wishes, and I hope for the best out come. Right to the vets ASAP., and let us know how he does.
48 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

signsofautumn1:

Pain relief is absolutely essential. A bunny in pain will not eat on their own. If a bunny doesn't eat then their empty digestive system fills with gas which causes more pain (and is probably why he won't let you give tummy massages). You need to go back to the vet and get metacam. Don't take no for an answer! Rabbits metabolize metacam differently to cats and dogs so the risks are not the same and higher dosages are safer too. The minimum dose needs to be 0.3mls per kg every 12 hours but I think in this case you should really go straight to 0.6mls per kg every 12 hours. It has been proven to be safe to give short term doses as high as 1.5mls per kg for rabbits so if your vet is unsure about doses get him/her to check the latest research (e.g. BSAVA Formulary or Molly Varga's Text Book of Rabbit Medicine which is referenced here - www.vgr1.com/metacam/).

How much does your bunny weigh? We can then check the other medicine dosages too as cisapride dosage is normally 0.5mls per kg - www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/GI_stimulation/cisapri.... I'm not sure that antibiotics are needed in this case either unless there is clear evidence of an infection. Abx will actually interfere with the digestive process.

I'd also dramatically increase your amount of fluids and/or critical care if you can get him to take it. Fluid and fibre are essential to get the digestive system restarted. But we need to know the weight to get the optimum level.
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

great advice there from fordster. sadly, you do NOT have a wonderful rabbit vet there . as no decent rabbit vet would EVER EVER EVER refuse metacam (pain med) for a rabbit in stasis, and especially not for a megacolon type rabbit.

you have to get metacam for him! or probably bupro as well by now.

no one has suggested you use an antibiotic.

your cisapride dose is way too low as well by the sound of it. (depends on his weight).

good work with the oral fluids but a bunny in this bad crisis needs IV fluids and LOTS of pain medication. can you get to another vet asap with your bunny? your fear of organ failure is valid which is why he needs to be on IV fluids and pain meds urgently. i'm so sorry your vet is like this. where are you? uk or usa? what is your nearest city?

you need to join the facebook group, we have loads of people with loads of vets treating this correctly.
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 48 months ago.

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Fordster says:

Any news on Sprinkles?
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

i hope you managed to get some metacam from the vet and at a big dose too. how is sprinkles doing? please update us.
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 48 months ago.

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enbee401 is a group moderator enbee401 says:

I keep coming back to check this thread, too. I hope Sprinkles got the necessary meds. Hugs to you!
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

medirabbit asked me to write this article about absolute lack of gut motility ie, true stasis followed by bloat and how i treated it (several times) and got a megacolon rabbit (strong boy beau) through. i also got horatio through bloat like this too, but it recurred almost immediately because it wasnt simply megacolon, but was actually a cancer obstructing his intestine. so he was then pts, whereas beau lived another two years after his bloat episodes, once we got his daily cisapride dose high enough.

i've never heard of another rabbit anywhere surviving bloat and recovering completely. i do think it's possible but you need nerves of steel and to know your rabbit very very well, and oddly i think it's more likely in a megacolon rabbit, as their 'stasis' is likely to be solely due to lack of motility than non mc bunnies, and therefore getting it moving again can do it, whereas a non mc bunny with so severe a case of stasis is probably more likely to have a mechanical obstruction/blockage.

however the principles of hydration and extra pain relief *ALWAYS* apply. and always consult a very very rabbit savvy vet with this info if using it.

www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Mega/mega_en.htm
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

a very rabbit savvy vet (not mine) once told me that what kills rabbits in bloat most, is actually SHOCK, not rupture. rupture is rarer. so pain relief and fluids help for shock. (like in humans). manuka honey can keep electrolytes at a good level too if given orally in slightly warm water. again will help with shock.
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 48 months ago.

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bunners76 says:

Thank you for posting this! Very good article. May I send it on to my vet?
48 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

Great article. Hypertrophy pyloric stenosis (what Flopsy had) could be a cause of bloat too. Again pain relief and hydration would be absolutely essential. In that case though it would very much depend on how severe it was as to the longer term prospects as it will keep recurring. Long term daily pain relief and gut stimulants would be needed and dosage would need to worked out on a case by case basis.
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

thanks fordster, yes it mimics megacolon (which confuses many vets) but it's a different condition. they both need similar treatment and are difficult and can be highly demanding on owners and rabbits alike. with megacolon too, we treat on a case by case basis as each one seems to be slightly different in terms of severity and dry or wet gut dominance. also it's a condition that tends to almost always worsen with age.

plyroic stenosis like flo had can be spontaneous, or from birth and megacolon can be genetic or aquired from spinal damage during surgery (spays for example, though rarely) or accident or as a side effect of paralysis from E cuniculi.

the supportive care (fluids and pain meds) applies to both as you have pointed out but the level of motility drugs has to be titrated individually. and some bunnies will be able to cope with the condition and others wont. it's very much an individual thing. and neither of these conditions can ever be cured, or surgically remedied in rabbits, and are going to be permanent and stressful and normally fatal at some point.

yes pam please feel free to share. also point out to the vet that genetic megacolon can even occur in rabbits of pure blocked colour like solid black for example (ie non typical colouring, not like beau) and in many breeds, including dutch, rex, mini rex (carly and art's bunnies), nethies, and NZW, lops (beau and horatio) and so on. the megacolon list on fb has ALL SORTS and many colours, diagnosed by vets as mc bunnies.

this is the best up to date techincal article on megacolon done by the university of bologna (be aware graphic images) and will be useful for the vet too. www.facebook.com/notes/megacolon-bunnies/2014-university-...
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 48 months ago.

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Fordster says:

I never thought of it being a possible effect of damage from surgery! That's quite a shocking thought, especially from a "routine" operation such as a spay. All the more reason to use a good rabbit savvy vet.
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

exactly! we've had two females on the mc group with acquired mc from this very surgery.
48 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

Thanks, Dani.

Question: are all rabbits "softie poopies" (sorry cannot find the correct spelling) the same in size and texture?
48 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

bunners76:

Not in my experience. Roux's tend to be larger and slightly flatter than Benji's or Flo's. Worryingly he sometimes produces them in a "sausage" clump like in Dani' thread - www.flickr.com/groups/bunnyloversunite/discuss/7215763741.... But I think that's usually if we've given him domperidone when he's struggling with moulting.
48 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

Fordster:

Thanks! He always looks like he's chewing gum. It's rather cute, he goes into a "softie pooh yummy trance"! I've only seen the one that he ate off the floor, and as I was watching him eat it, I thought, it could have been the texture of cake batter. It was the last of the batch. Usually we never see any of his. He manages to make them all disappear! 😄 (He ate it in little bites is how I could tell. That's how he eats treats. Even the smallest bits are eaten slowly in tiny bites and savored slowly! He even licked up the floor to make sure he got it all!).
Originally posted 48 months ago. (permalink)
bunners76 edited this topic 48 months ago.

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bunners76 says:

I was forever picking them up from Fudge and Bandit! Some ovals, too. Rarely from Nutmeg and Bunners. Mostly as they aged. Sometimes I'd offer them to the one who dropped them, and Nutmeg would take them, Bunners would turn up his nose.
48 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

no definitely not. megacolon bunnies have a distinctive size (larger) shape and conformation (sausage segments rather than tiny balls), colour more black less brown i've found, whiff (think farmyard) and texture (sticky not slippery), and appear " tarry " rather than beautifully shiny and rather fruity smelling like the normal nice 'bunch of grapes' cecotrophs from regular bunny guts are.
47 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

mossbinky:That's what Fudge and Bandits were. I guess I should have been more specific. Are normal bunnies usually the same. I've noticed that bigger bunnies have bigger ones. Smaller bunnies are smaller. But I've also noticed that when the softies are done, there's sometimes one that is almost part softie, part normal poo. It's just a bit bigger and thicker. I've seen it in all my bunnies. Sometimes they eat it, sometimes not. It doesn't happen all the time, just occasionally. Not very often. Like a poo that couldn't decide which to be. 😏
47 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

mossbinky:I've inadvertently tasted normal softies. They taste like sweet dirt mixed with grass. Not bad, but not my idea of a treat.
47 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

yes i think there are some in betweeners that bunnies will sometimes eat, moss does it pam.
47 months ago (permalink)

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bunners76 says:

mossbinky:Thanks. That's what I had guessed, but having confirmation is always very helpful.

I get the hugest kick out of Oreo's "softie blissed out look"! Anyone else do it? Our other buns just nommed them as "a matter of fact"! Oreo's a fun bunny.
47 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Hello i am new to this and i dont know how to post a new post. I apologize. I need some urgent help on my beloved bunny benny!!! Hes over a year old dwarf Netherland. About 2 weeks ago benny stopped drinking water , and he was acting very strange . He was always laying down and panting or hide. I saw his cecal movements when he layed on his stomach it was contracting and visible yo the eye. I took him to the vet withen 2 days. They took x rays also complete blood work. They found absolutly nothing ! They said he has alot of ingesta and gave me metoclopramide. I went home and gave him the meds for like 3 days and stopped because he didnt change at all he was completely the same and wouldnt drink aslo i gace him fluids under the skin for 4 days. Nothing worked so i schedule another appointment and this time they did an utlra sound and still found nothing! So they gave him cisapride and metacam still thinking it was ingesta and that this will help him move it down. I gave it to him for one day and stopped because i started wondering why am i giving him these meds if all he has is ingesta? He was pooping fine and eating hay fine. So then i ended up scheduling another appointment with a different vet also specializing in exotic pets. They told him i could bring the records and see whats going on. But should i still take him now that i see he is doing better on his own without any meds.i stopped giving it to him because i felt like i was dosing him with a bunch of things without them giving even a real diagnosis. But i really want to know what happened to my benny , but by me bringing him to another vet who might do more test and might not even provide me on any information again and spending thousands of dollars again idk if its needed now that he is drinking on his own. So here are a few things i noticed with him within the week. His urine was milky yellow color , that could be from not drinking im not sure, another thing i notcied was that his poop smells reallybweird it never smelled like thag before like strong sweat. Please help anyone i need advice on my baby i dont know who else to turn to since a vet cant even provide me with any info. Please email me for any information at forevavicka@yahoo.com.
43 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

i think you should go to the exotics vet and take with you (or ask them to get by fax from the other practices which they can easily do via email) his details of previous treatment.

he just needs a check up. they need to just give him a physical exam with their hands, feel his tummy, see his poops (take some with you in a jam jar) and have a quick look at his mouth and listen to his heart. that's all by the sound of it. if they are worried they might do a fecal test which would tell you if he has some sort of gut infection (this just means they send poops off to a lab, nothing invasive for him).

contrary to what you think, his having been dosed with metacam and some of the motility drugs may have saved his life. what you describe are severe pain symptoms and in rabbits this can be a problem.

a good exotics vet will help to explain to you how important pain relief is in a rabbit and what to look out for etc.

but before you go can you tell me how his poops are now, and if he was pooping at all when he was laying panting? how do his poops smell now? show me a photo of them if you can. and what COLOUR is he? (his fur, can you describe him or post a photo on the group pool)

is he ok now? is he eating normally and drinking normally? is he moving about a lot and being ok? can you tell us what he eats everything each day please? thanks.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Initially the first time I took him to the vet they performed a physical exam and then they said they couldnt do any lab work etc because I need to go to exotics for that, which i did right the next day i went to a doctor who was listed on the rabbit scociety website . She couldnt diagnose him after many testing. All she said was igesta. So then she gave us metoclopramide. But she didnt say it was gi stasis or anything . She just said it was ingesta . At home i would give him tummy rubs daily and lift his butt up in the air a bit in case he had gas. I mean idk what he could have had , all i know is that he would always lay around trying to find a comfy spot and breath really hard ,mouth closed. We took him back for recheck after x ray and they did the ultra sound at the animal hospital and still didnt find anything which then gave us cisapride which confused me because they didn't find anythig particular . So then aftwr a a few days i just stopped him all the meds.but i still made an app with another doctor to bring in all the lab work , but im just not sure if i should due to the fact that Currently he seems better , he is drinking on his own a good amount finally. Which was initially my first reason to why i brought him to the vet , he eats timothy hay, veggies like parsley, lettuce , dill ,i would give him a piece of banana at times. Very small amount of pellets mixed in with seeds and dried fruit. When i first brought him in , he was also eating hay just fine and pellets it was the water intake that concerned me because he seemed like it hurt him to drink? Or he just didnt want to. Thats why they said it wasnt stasis but then why all the meds? When i msgd my vet that prescribed the meds i told her why am i giving him cisapride if hes eating and pooping fine. She said i dont have to? So i stopped. But now i am thinking maybe i should just resume and finish his dosage of cisapride and metacam? It cant do any harm can it ? Just in case something is still bothering him? But when he got sick before i took him to the vet his poop smelled off , it never had a smell to it before. He is active he runs around and binkys around on the bed. He weighs 1.39 kg. His fur is soft on the short side.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

My main question now is, can i start giving him cisapride all over again the remainder dosage that is left in the bottle with metacam even if he wasn't diagnosed with gi stasis or anything like that , can these meds hurt a bunny who doesnt have stasis? Can it help instead with just general gut motility ? Or can cisapride and metacam have adverse effects on a bunny who doesnt have gi stasis?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Also is cisapride a treatments for megacolon? I am just trying to rule out all the possibilies myself with my husband because the vets dont know so im trying to find out information on mynown doing research everyday. And i am monitering him and observing his every move . Last night i noticed abnormal size shape poop , its oval and bigger then i ever saw, maybe its all the stuff coming out that he had like the ingesta that the vets said he had . But then again idk why his poop smells weird . I am going to post a picture on my profile of the poop. Again it might also be that He is stepping on it while eating hay making it look like that shape . I am going to keep looking and trying to see , every day its something new:/
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Fordster says:

Mylovebennythebunny:

Metacam can be thought of as the bunny equivalent to ibuprofen and is the essential medication for pain relief. If a rabbit is in pain (which they're very good at hiding due to being a prey species) then they won't eat. Cisapride and metoclopramide are both gut stimulants. They're the most common ones prescribed by vets and are sometimes prescribed together as they work slightly differently (but best to leave 30 minutes between them).

I've never heard of ingesta as a condition, the literal meaning is food eaten (ingested) so curious as to what your vet meant? Where are you based?

It could well be moulting causing him to block up a little which the metoclopramide and/or cisapride would help push through. And the Metacam would be essential to help with the pain.

I had a look at your photos and those poops didn't look too bad. Moulting can cause misshapen poops like that too. They did look a little dry and hard though? Which would suggest more fluid is needed (again expected during moulting). The wee looked okay too as rabbit urine can be all sorts of colours depending what they eat.

Does he drink from a bottle or a bowl? If a bottle try giving him a bowl as they usually prefer that once they get used to it (leave him the bottle whilst he switched over). Also give him plenty of wet herbs but that may cause him to overproduce cecotrophes but better that in the short term than not enough fluid. I'd suggest not giving him any fruit though as the sugar can upset the digestive system. And I'd also stop giving him seeds for now until you're sure his fluid intake is back to normal.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I am assuming them saying its ingesta , a way of saying that they have no idea as to whats wrong with him . All i saw was that his stomach was contracting strongly and i felt it move, when he was laying on his side, they said it was cecal moving .but the vet said its somewhat abnormal to see it move like that. ... the moment i got him i have always given him water from a bowl. My main concern is can i continue with cisapride and metacam ? The vet said he had alot of ingesta that showed on the x ray and ultra sound , but when i went home i aslo came to the conclusion that ingesta is just his food intake etc so why the meds? I wasnt sure if he needs them still or not so i asked the vet and she said no he doesnt which is so strange becausw why prescribe them knowing he was passing and eating fine?? So in this case i stopped the meds, but should i just give to him just incase he hes having any digestion problems still and metacam for pain? I stopped the meds abruptly, so i have alot left over worth of 3 more day maybe or more? So can he have adverse effects from it if he has just alot of ingesta? And also what could the funny sweat smell from his poop mean?? He still lays down alot but he doesnt pant as hard as 2 weeks ago, but his water intake increased for sure. And thank to all who respond this means so much to me!!!
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Fordster says:

Heavy breathing (sides moving) is a sign of pain. But bum twitching followed by reaching to eat cecotrophes is normal. An X-ray will show food (or gas) in the stomach and intestines. Smelly poop could be something upsetting his digestive balance. Can you get rabbit probiotics where you are (pro-c here in the UK)? If you let us know where you are maybe we can find you a rabbit savvy vet. They're very different to cats and dogs and most vets sadly have little training or knowledge of rabbits.

How long was he on the metoclopramide and cisapride before you stopped? It's best to do phased withdrawal if it's been a while as they get used to having it so the guy needs to get used to working on its own again. But if he's eating and pooping sufficiently he's probably okay. Just keep an eye on him and give him it if you think he's struggling. I would say keep giving him the Metacam though as pain relief is essential to keep a poorly bunny eating. What's the dosage the vet gave you and is it dog or cat strength?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Fordster edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I reside in u.sa. new york , ive been to the exotics specialist vet suggested by rabbit society.org. he seems to be doing alright now. I gave him metoclopramide for about 3 days twice a day at 0.65 ml . Then since he wasnt dont any better , completly the same symptoms seemed present , i stopped giving it to him, and returned to the same animal hospital since he wasnt getting any better and panting really hard still with no water intake. Thats when they gave me cisapride and they told me try that since they had no clue basically, and i gave him cisapride for about 1-2 days at 0.2 ml reccomended doasage was 3 times daily , i gave him twice a day for a day or two. Then i emailed the vet that benny has seen and i asked if cisapride is even necessary since hes been pooping and eating fine even before he came , and then she said i can stop?and thats when I got completely confused as to why the vet even gave him these meds in the first place?? So i made am appointment with another exotics vet, but now im thinking of not going and just finish the cicapride instead with the metacam they gave me which i gave for one day, just in case hes having pain or issues with his belly because i did stop abruptly and dint finish with the dosages given , maybe i need to continue to be on the safe side? Im just scared that what if i give him it to him and hell have adverse effects instead? Basically lets say a bunny is gut healthy ,is it still ok to give him cicapride and metacam for the remainder of his dosage thats left in the bottles? Can it do harm? If i go to another vet i feel like they will just take more money and not dignose him with anything again or take unnecessary tests. I am so worried i cant sleep anymore :// he is drinking good now as time goes by , and eating hay well. Sometimes he will lay down and pant a bit but not as before where that's all he could do for a whole day!. Now he seems more relaxed . Hes still not as active but much better . I watch him like a hawk for any slight changes i might detect.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

no you should not be giving cisapride AT ALL WITHOUT METACAM. just because a vet is on an HRS list doesnt mean they're any good. and we cannot even begin to diagnose megacolon via the internet. you have to find a GOOD exotics vet who deals with rabbits not just lizards and gekkos and snakes.

yes it very much can do harm to use cisapride if it's not necessary.

yes you can continue to give him metacam without causing harm BUT i really have no idea what it is you are actually asking about.

either he is OK or he is ill. i just dont know what you're saying....you're all muddled and unclear.

if he's ill he needs to go to a better vet so like i said before, take him to the new vet and get him examined properly and take all the notes with you or ask the vet to request them be sent via email.

just because he was physically examined weeks ago doesnt mean things wont have changed by now. he looks MUCH TOO THIN, and underweight. how old is he?

he doesnt need to have all these tests but you DO need to find a proper rabbit savvy vet and the best way to do this is to contact the HRS in new york city direct and speak to them about a vet near to you and get a personal recommendation. dont return to either of these other vets. neither of them should have told you whatever the hell they mean by 'ingesta' which is utter nonsense as a diagnosis, nor should they have told you to give even metochlopramide wihtout giving metacam at the same time.

metochlop and cisapride are strong meds not to be used lightly and ALWAYS alongside pain medication. they can cause severe gut spasms.

please try to be clearer.

no dont give meds to a bunny who is doing ok.

and yes do take him to a vet if he's not. and always ask the vets to give him "sub cut fluids" when you take him, ok? please let me know his age and weight.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I am sorry if i am unlclear , as is his diagnosis./misdiagnosis. I myself dont know what to make out of things because every vet states a different theory. His state of being varies day to day. But for the past 3 days he seems alot better. I dont know if he is actually better or is this temporary either. All i wanted to know is should i resume to give him cicapride alongside with metacam all over again untill he finishes his prescribed dosage or not. The vet confused me and my husband and i have to sit and figure things out.on my own after spending thousands of dollars and 2 weeks of being worried sick ,so i dont want to go to another vet and experience another run around for a few thousand dollars more. I am trying to save my pet that's all. but finding an experienced vet hasbproven to be a lot harder, ive spend alot of time on research and thats the info that was provided for me unfortunately. I dont think he has megacolon as hes passing normal size and shape poop today, yesterday he was not so i was alarmed. This is my first time owning a rabbit so am not an expert ill learn as i go along. I only wanted to know if i should resume the cicapride prescribed with metacam because sometimes he still lays around panting, not like before , not as hard but he might still be bothered by some pain or discomfort, i am not sure ,therefore I figured maybe i should continue his cicapride and metacam. Again hours of research led me here ,i wanted to ask around first before doing anything. Asking the vet is no use. He is a little over a year and hes 1.39 kg. He might look thinner because they shaved his belly when taking a ultrasound. Hes a Netherland dward , hes tiny, also i give about a quarter size amount of mixed pellets every other day or so.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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LoveSomeBunny says:

Wow, this is hard for me to keep track of in my mind so I can imagine how you are feeling. There were some things I wanted to add in case it helps but I've got to do it in more than one post to keep track and I might repeat what other friends have said too so you will have to excuse that ;)

I wanted to ask first...how long have you had your guy, do you have any idea how old he is, has this happened to him before in the past, and is he moulting right now. I saw his pic and he looks young to me, his coat looks very fine like my guys did when he was a baby and like his coat also looks when the undercoat is mainly showing because he is in a moult. it is hard to tell from his one pic though so I am guessing a bit about his age....gathering my thoughts for one more post...
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
LoveSomeBunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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LoveSomeBunny says:

Post #2
This of course is all just imo and not vet advice but I will add what the vets have advised for my bun in similar situations in the past. Personally if this was my bun I would be hesitant to give him the metoclopramide and the cisapride right now because those are motility drugs and although they are very helpful in keeping a slow tummy moving and getting a bun through stasis or moult... unless it is confirmed that he does not have any blockages they can be very dangerous to give. Although (generally) if he is pooping, then he will not have a blockage. Where I live you can no longer get these drugs without an apt to rule out a blockage first. Metoclopramide works on the upper Gi tract and Cisapride on the lower. Metoclopramide will make them eat more, and Cisapride will make them poop more. So what I have been advised is that Cisapride is the safer of the two because if you give metoclopramide to a bun that has any blockage and cannot poop, then giving that drug can cause a rupture. I give metacam to my bunny everyday and would give the metacam to your bun too. My guy gets it after some food, not on an empty tummy, and if he isn't drinking well then he needs to have some water also because it's harder to process in a dehydrated bun. But if he is getting sub q fluids then his hydration is good

A lot of the symptoms you have described are what happen to my bun when he is in stasis or sick from a moult. Including going on and off foods, not drinking, being reclusive, pressing tummy to the floor, heavy breathing (pain). So it is sounding to me also like he may be having trouble with his diet (I cannot give my guy fruit or the sugars upsets his tummy. He also cannot have any seeds - what kinds of seeds does your guy get? My guy can't tolerate lettuces but loves his dill and italian parsley and he gets those very wet every day. My guy definitely goes off his water when he is full of food and hair and it is not moving in his tract properly. He feels bloated and drinking would make him feel more bloated and so that's why he lingers at his dish but won't drink. But I change his dish and his water 3 times a day also because he will not drink if the water isn't really fresh all the time.

When you say his poops are smelly..his regular (fecal) poops or his soft cecal poops? Is he eating anything new or different that could be upsetting his tummy? Is he neutered? How are his scent glands / does he smell musky?

As for the ingesta part, that term is used here to mean ingested "things" be it food or water, or in the case of a foreign body then maybe that too. So if a vet here said ingesta to me it would mean he has a lot in his tummy or his tract..the problem would be is it moving through his tract or not. If my bun had a lot of gas in his tummy that would be called gas and not ingesta and shows on Xray. I'm sorry the vet had to do an ultrasound on him but glad it didn't find anything awful also. It's obvious you love him very much to do all this for him and I hope he keeps getting better

Ps ..exceptions for seeds nuts that I know of would be black oil sunflower and a tiny amt of almond. They are good for putting weight on. My first guy got a few black oil sunflower everyday while he was still a baby
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
LoveSomeBunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

there is no need to give cisapride - unless he is not pooping now, so dont give it if he is pooping well.

metacam is for pain, so you give it if he is in pain. if he's not, then keep it in your cupboard in a dark cool place (not the fridge), as you can use it some other time. are these drugs in syringes or in a bottle?

you do not need to "finish the course" with either of these meds, ok. they're not like antibiotics.

but you do have to use metacam with cisapride THAT IS A SOLID FACT. dont give him the one without the other because cisapride causes pain when it is working, because it moves the gut along forcefully. i think lovesome may have forgotten to write this in her post, but it is essential.

regarding his size and weight. he looks too thin on his back, not his stomach - i can see his spine really clearly in the photo and his hipbones. i have serious concerns that he's being underfed. you write >>He is a little over a year and hes 1.39 kg. He might look thinner because they shaved his belly when taking a ultrasound. Hes a Netherland dward , hes tiny, also i give about a quarter size amount of mixed pellets every other day or so.<<

even a netherland dwarf at his age should be eating two tablespoons (USA tbsp, which are smaller than UK ones) TWICE a day of a good pellet like for example Oxbow (any of theirs would be fine for him). they are widely available.

what do you mean by a "quarter every other day or so" what does that measurement mean? we're in the UK and i dont understand sorry. please let me know....still a bit confused. i get it about the vets, they may have saved his life though. both those meds can be essential for some conditions, but i'm just concerned the main problem might be lack of FOOD.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 43 months ago.

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LoveSomeBunny says:

Re Dani was saying..
"...but you do have to use metacam with cisapride THAT IS A SOLID FACT. dont give him the one without the other because cisapride causes pain when it is working, because it moves the gut along forcefully. i think lovesome may have forgotten to write this in her post, but it is essential...."

Yes I can def say I have always gotten the two and used the two together. Sorry to not have added it, I am so conditioned to giving my boy metacam everyday for his illness that it is just second nature to me so really oversight on my part

I think I should add too...if your guy has a megacolon issue I am not advising on that. Neither of my buns have had megacolon and I am not experienced with megacolon; just sharing information for the symptoms that my buns have had that are similar to what your boy has had
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
LoveSomeBunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

mossbinky:

My local vet told me to give him pellets, then the exotics vet that performed all the testing told me to cut back on pellets , i mean idk . I usually give a quarter which is about a table spoon a day every other day or so. When ive done research, some advise to completly rid the pellets from the buns diet. I am not really sure whats correct at this point. The medicine , metacam, cicapride and metoclopramide , i put them all in the fridge, they are stored in bottles and i have multiple syringes for them. Regarding the movement of his stomach, i now think i know why i saw his belly move around like that , it must have been the metoclopramide, and its infuriating to find out, that might have caused him even more pain on top of the pain he was already experiencing because the vet didnt give me metacam with metoclopramide , untill the second appointment when she gave us with cicapride.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Mylovebennythebunny:

I am a little confused with some things . He seems like hes in a bit of a pain after he eats wether its hay or pellets, right now he just ate and he seems mildly in pain because hes laying down on his belly breathing is a little hard, but its not as hard as before. So i if hes in pain then i should give him metacam, but if hes in pain ans i have to give a pain reliever that means the underlaying issue still remains, meaning shouldn't i give him metoclopramide with metacam since hes still feels discomfort due to his gut motility ? If im giving him metacam that means i still might need to give him metoclopramide to help him move things along. Im not sure but whats the point of metacam alone if hes still having some gut problems. I am watching him as i write and i see him laying around his water bowl and he seems like he wants to drink but doesnt, also he just finished eating hay .
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Fordster says:

Mylovebennythebunny:

It could be a number of things causing pain but one thing you can be sure of is that they won't eat if they're in pain. That's why he still needs the Metacam.

Regarding pellets there are people who argue they should not be given and you should stick to the "hay and greens" diet as that's what a rabbit would eat in the wild. Pellets were originally designed for breeders and rabbits destined for meat as if that's they're only diet they'll gain weight quickly. But they do have their place in a pet rabbits diet as long as they have hay as their main source of food. Think of the pellets as a supplement which will provide extra fibre and vitamins that may be missing in a domestic rabbits other foods. If giving pellets it's important to get the right amount, too little (especially with a younger bunny) and they'll struggle to gain weight. Too much though and they'll gain too much weight, possibly not eat enough hay and maybe be taking in too much sugar (depending on the brand of pellet).
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I just went out and bought him oxbow timothy pellets, without any additives, seeds, sugar . I used to give him Kaytee fiesta mix pellets with added fruits, seeds etc. But i went with this brand to try it out not to further upset his belly, but he doesnt seem to like it as much as the other one lol he nibbles on it just a bit. Should i just get him the kaytee mixed pellets as well ? Since he likes that so much better and i do want him to eat well .
43 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

yes mix both of them in together as you need to transition him gradually onto the better oxbow pellet and it may take a while. he's got used to the 'sweeter' one and will need to be weaned off gradually, dont rush him, give him both for now and only remove a little of the kaytee each day (just a tiny bit) and add in a bit more oxbow.

now put at least TWO american tablespoons of this mix of pellets down for him every day - twice a day. and he also needs his water (just confirm that this is tap water for us, not distilled water?) and his hays. and a few fresh green foods like herbs: basil, parsley, cilantro, mint a day (handful). that is a balanced diet for him. and i hope will add some weight onto him. the exotics vet is wrong to have him on hay only. especially when he's so thin and if you have concerns about him possibly being megacolon. also i dont think he's a netherland dwarf. he's a very small dwarf crossbreed i think. does not look like a proper netherland dwarf which makes me even more concerned about his weight. i'll post a photo of a netherland dwarf at the bottom of this post.

when did this heavy breathing start after his food? how long has he been doing this?

what you can do as an experiment to see if this is pain, is give him a dose of metacam diagnostically. ie give him his food and a dose of metacam. see if he pants less? it's pretty common for bunnies to lay down and rest a lot after they've eaten. but also this 'panting' can be a sign of pain, so dosing him with painkiller and watching carefully to see if it makes any difference could tell you potentially that it either is or isnt pain related. see what i mean?

yes you are right, the metachlop was making his stomach wave visibly, but also because he's thin and shaved you'll have noticed it more. if he is eating and most importantly POOPING well at the moment, he doesnt need them.

is he pooping well? and enough? can you show me a photo of his litter tray after a whole day's eating (or day and night) so i can see how much his output is?

also any more of his poops on paper especially if they are big and oval, put your little finger nail in the photo with it so we have a size comparison...thanks. and let me know what water he is drinking?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 43 months ago.

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bunners76 says:

Mylovebennythebunny:Mix the two together at first, and gradually wean him off the Kaytee. Each time a bit less of the one, and more of the other. He will get used to it that way.
43 months ago (permalink)

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mossbinky says:

adult netherland dwarf, very small and cobby, short blunt face, and very very small ears.

geo is such a pretty nethie by mossbinky


benny looks really like lovesome's rabbit "snowy" who is a small dwarf very pretty (like benny) crossbreed. probably a cross between a nethie and a lop? longer ears, sweet face, longer and finer than a nethie.
Morning Cleaning by LoveSomeBunny

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/lsbphotography/26051501580/in/dateposted/]
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I actually just gave him the pellets and a dose of metacam. He is laying down now and doesn't seem to be panting . The panting started two weeks ago when he stopped drinking his water and would lay around all day, looking for a cold spot like the fridge to plop down . The heavy panting and no drinking was the reason I brought him in to the animal hospital and thats when all the ingesta diagnosis/misdiagnosis began. So currently he seems alot better , but again eachday seems different . For example, dor the past two days he has been drinking normally about 2 big bowls a day. But today he hasnt touched his water once again, and after he ate his hay and some water drained lettuce he started laying down panting just a bit by his water bowl without touching it. I gave him metacam to see if his panting slows down. I give him tap water. But since he wasnt drinking i started mixing a teaspoon of apple juice with his water to get him going. His fecal poop output seems very good , hes pooping alot and eating hay well. I just introduced him to the oxbow today , he ate two table spoon as you suggested. Slow at first but ate it all :) i will try to put more pictures up. Also i just looked at the date and my videos while benny was panting hard, i saw that his stomach was moving very hard before the metoclopramide. I showed that video to the vet and she said its a bit abnormal, his cecal moving as they said. thats when she gave us metoclopramide. His fecal poop has a strange smell like never before . When he wasnt sick i never smelled the odor . When this whole panting thing and not drinking started thats when i started smelling a difference with his poop.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

So i just posted some pictures of his fecal poop. Please take a look. I took some in my hands to feel texture etc. The bigger ones seem to be the ones emitting the strange odor. They feel moist, soft and smell like sweat? Like strong sweat. And an update on his water intake: he is now drinking again. So mid day he seems to be drinking more. In the morning till late afternoon he didnt touch his bowl.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to comment , this means the world to me as im having trouble with finding a good experienced vet and solutions for my baby benny. He is my world and im trying my best to help him as much as i possibly can. Thank you to everyone for providing some information at such a distressed time for me and my lovely benny.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

An update on Benny's day, so his poop doesn't look so big anymore, but still emitting a strong sweat like odor that fills the whole kitchen . I gave him his metacam twice. He seems ok . Not panting much. But the odor remains. I am clueless as what it can be,since he only got it after his condition started.
43 months ago (permalink)

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Fordster says:

Mylovebennythebunny:

It's difficult to say but the smell could be gas, digestive upset or infection. Even a change in diet can cause poops to smell different. And medication can make it smell too. Are they his fecal poops or cecotrophes?

Have a look at this thread - www.flickr.com/groups/bunnyloversunite/discuss/7215760029.... Does it look like any of those?
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Fordster:

Fecal poops , but i noticed the odd smell before he was on meds. And i took a look at the pictures and they do not look like that. They look normal and round but with odor. Hes always looking for a cooler spot on the floor to lay on.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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LoveSomeBunny says:

Mylovebennythebunny:

Once in a while my bunny has an oval poop if his tummy has been upset by an infection, moult, or while on meds. When he was young and not neutered his poops were often more odorous also. They stayed like that for some time even after his neuter. In the spring he and his poops and scent glands would have a lot more odor also (smell related to hormones). Maybe it could be one of those things for your bun.

Is it hot right now where you are? Could the rapid breathing be because he is hot? Is he playful and active?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
LoveSomeBunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

LoveSomeBunny:

No its not warm yet here in new york. I had bloodwork done for him, wouldn't the test show sighns if infection was present in the gut ? Or does it not show infection, i assume the white blood count would be higher ?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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LoveSomeBunny says:

Yes if he had infection or an inflammatory response the bloodwork should show that. Is he neutered?

I guess my thoughts are going towards, if he is active and playful, poops fairly normal in shape aside from a once in a while oval one, eating well, bloods and ultrasound good..then he is sounding pretty good from those. Are you thinking he is still sick? If yes, what is making you think so?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
LoveSomeBunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

LoveSomeBunny:

He still looks for cold spots on the floor to lay, pants a bit too. But before , he would pant all day and hide .or not drink for days . so i do see a difference in his water intake and panting . Sometimes he still won't touch his water. Smelly fecal poop, which i have never smelled before he got sick. Also would an obstruction of any kind show on x ray or ultra sound? And he is active i let him run around until he cant any more lol .
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
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mossbinky says:

do you have the results of his bloodwork? can you post a photo of the lab report for me?

thing is, high wbc count in rabbits is not an indicator of infection like it is in humans, their bloodwork is notoriously hard to interpret. but it would have shown things like liver function and kidney function.

an obstruction *may* or may not show on xray or u/s. i had a bunny with a tumour in its intestine with nothing showing on xray or u/s. it depends where it is often.

he doesnt have an obstruction believe me!! he wouldnt be producing big poops like this if he had even a partial obstruction (so that's a good thing!) but he could have gut slow down or he could (especially with the 'smell' (barnyard?) and the extra water drinking (2 bowls is quite a lot for a little fellow) and the biggish poops be a megacolon bunny though the poops are not really oval enough or large enough for mc.

lovesome is right though, it could just be his natural hormonal smell if he is not netuered. his "muskiness"

has he always done large poops?

did the vet ever do a urine sample test for him? have you got any copies of any tests done and any xray results? could you get them? ask the vet for them to be emailed to you. you've paid for them, they are actually your property. it would help if we could read reports etc.

it's great that he's running around, but the panting is a bit worrying, and the seeking out cold spots to lay, and the improvement with painkiller is somewhat diagnostic of an underlying problem.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
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mossbinky says:

if you could do a VIDEO of him laying panting that would be really helpful too
43 months ago (permalink)

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Mylovebennythebunny says:

Im not sure if it's musky, i just smell sweat. , or something of that sort. I cant dercribe it as im not sure what musky smells like. I do have the blood work and the x ray on a cd. And no hes never had any big poops it never caught my attention. I never did a urinalysis on him, that would be my next step since they ruled out stasis. Because i honesty dont know what other tests i could do on him to see where his discomfort is coming from. He always drinks alot , he would drink 3 in the summer. That's why i was so alarmed when i saw him stop drinking as that was a drastic change. Also what is a difference between stasis and a bloackage? I cant seem to find any info on bloackage. Also ive tried to upload vids on this website but it doesn't let me.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
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mossbinky says:

he might just be a naturally big drinker because he eats a lot of hay (and this is why his poops are large).

can you somehow show us the bloodwork and xrays?

he has definitely NOT got a blockage with such good poops.
and he hasnt got stasis either - again his poops would not be like this.

but he could have an infection. *most likely in his urine* the only time i've seen panting like this over a long period of time was a kidney infection but this would only show in a urinalysis.

is his nose wet at all? use a thin bit of toilet tissue and just dab it on his nose to see if it's wet?

is he sneezing at all?

is he neutered?? it's important to know.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
mossbinky edited this topic 43 months ago.

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mossbinky says:

have a look at something i just put on the poop thread - is that what you mean by a 'hedger'?
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
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Mylovebennythebunny says:

When i called the vet stating that his condition remained the same after a few days, she sais the next step would be to further analize his kidneys? But when we did his bloodwork she said the kidneys were not to be worrried about but it did show up slightly elevated? But she reasured me that its not to worrry about.
Originally posted 43 months ago. (permalink)
Mylovebennythebunny edited this topic 43 months ago.

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