asterope* 5:09am, 24 June 2005
i thought i would take the opportunity to take my camera for a walk this afternoon as i was going to get some coffee (urban grind in paddo... yum yum!) i had seen a few interesting things to take pictures of over the past few days and i had the time so... what the hey...

anyhoo, getting to the story... i had my coffee and saw something ahead that i just HAD to have on film before it dissapeared... walked up, took out my camera got into position and started to focus when the lady who owns the shop that i was standing outside of comes barging out saying "no photos no photos!!!" oh dear... "im sorry, im very sorry" came my reply... put my camera in my bag and started to get up...

she then starts going on about how i need to take photos that come from the heart, that i must ask permission before taking ANY photos of any kind, that paedophiles use photos, and we hate paedophiles and we dont like photos... (ummm...ok...)

heres me probably looking shocked and saying "sorry, im sorry... i didnt mean to upset you..." and trying to walk away as she kept going on and on about how paedophiles put photos on the internet and its wrong to take a photo without asking, and how shopowners dont spend all their hard earned time just so we can take pictures of this blah blah blah... lecture lecture lecture... a very stern look and tipping of the finger at the end before she went back inside.

what was i taking a picture of??
the rear of an split colour oval window beetle belonging to a man from the vw forum i subscribe to... he would have been pretty chuffed with the photo i was going to take.
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
That's very weird ... and has no basis in law or commonsense. But I must admit it it would come as a shock if some-one freaked out at you like that.

I know some areas are very touchy, for example the Roma Street parklands always have their security keep a close eye on anyone taking photographs. They are usually pretty cool about it once they realise you are taking pictures of flowers and sculptures, but I asked what the issue was, and they are nervous about photos of people, particularly kids.
.steve.t [deleted] 12 years ago
I'd have to say I agree. It's been pronounced in Australia since sievX and Sep 11. The hysteria that you've written of speaks to issues raised in Arthur Miller's "The Crucible".
asterope* 12 years ago
it is weird isnt it? i especially wasnt expecting it from this particular shop owner... as she is probably one of the biggest hippies in brisbane (and ive probably given it away which shop it was now...) and i would have 'assumed' that she wouldnt be so swayed by all the hype... wrong assumption!

what if i had been a tourist or a journalist/photographer... asking someone not to take photos outside your store is one thing... launching into a full-blown lecture on the evils of internet society in allusion that perhaps the person with the equipment is a deviant is totally another... great impression of the people of a town to take home with you to another country or talk section of a newspaper...

i was going to try my hand at some street photography these holidays, now ive just been scared off... the way people think these days is just so weird!
admin
Don't be scared off. Was it her beetle you were photographing? Was her shop (& you haven't given away to me which shop it was) in the frame of your intended photo? In other words did she have any legitimate grounds to deny you the opportunity to take your photo? From what you've written I think not so rather than cave in to her paranoia (if she's such a hippe perhaps she's smoked 1 or 3 too many joints) tell her (& any acting like her) to get f*cked (in this case you could also point out that you know the car's owner) & go take all the street photos you like.

I was recently booted out of the Stock Exchange Hotel (yeah, I know, being there shows extremely bad taste) for taking photos of the girl I was with. I took photos of the door gorillas after they'd escorted me out which they didn't like but once I was off premises I was also off limits to them :) Those photos are on flickr & will be used in my complaint against that venue.
it is upsetting indeed. I now realise that one of the skills to be a photographer is ones ability to deal with people. once you have confidence in what you want to do when taking pics you'll have the confidence to deal with people in loads of situations, including this one. [i haven't reached that level of confidence myself yet]. get in there and enjoy your pics.
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
oddly enough the advent of the cameraphone has dozens of people taking dozens of photos constantly in venues like the Stock Exchange hotel so I don't know why they would bother.

Off course I'm refraining from commenting about going to the stock exchange hotel to drink :)
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Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
There were lots of people taking photos. I guess me using a largish camera with a flash going off was a bit more obvious than most.

& thanks for refraining ;)
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thomask 12 years ago
i got kicked out of rics on friday night for snapping the bar staff... talk about uptight! i think she took exception to me shooting her arse...

so i donned my beanie and snuck back in 20 mins later, after snapping the valley by night.

then my jacket got nicked so i left again to find the culprits. 'bumped' into them outside no.21, got my jacket back, hid behind the monastary bouncer for a bit, then back to rics but refused entry as 3am had ticked over. fuck.

walked home.

all b/c some people are insecure about their arses...
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
first Pedro is drinking at the stock exchange, now you're at Ric's .. the lesson here should be one about watering holes not camera etiquette :)
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Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
P'aps y' right Rae ... I've never got the boot from anywhere in West End on account of my camera. I've also gotten away with going pretty shutter mad (including shots of staff but not their arses) in the Down Under Bar where I shouldn't even get in because I'm neither a student nor backpacker but I know the door dudes through ranking up the cab there.
thomask 12 years ago
c'mon dude ric's is about the last decent place to get mashed in the valley. you can be all arsey and spend a green one at soma or the bowery which is wanker (read city) central, but to get truly hammered and have a stumbling fumbling good time, ric's has to be the place to be.

but of course all in agreement with the west end sentiments. although in my last days of working at tng we had to eject some rather unruly elements (casino / city rejects) all hepped up on bundy n coke. the end of the good times...
Andrew Scott PRO 12 years ago
So anyone know what the legal aspects of this kind of thing are?

I think it's crazy to worry about. Cameras are unstoppable, nearly invisible and ubiquitous. If you can see something in public view why can't you freeze the moment? Or am I being naive?

How do the paparazzi get away with it anyway?
asterope* 12 years ago
i think the paparazzi have those big-arse 1200mm super-telephoto lenses (www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresour...) and are just too good with a monopod. hehehe :D

as for the legal aspects of this... i dont think there are any legal aspects apart from the shop-owners slanderous language directed at a passerby... if i was using a cameraphone would i have been stopped? i very much doubt it. you would think in this day and age people would get alot more uptight about being snapped up unknowingly on someones camera phone than by someone holding a big camera and very obviously fiddling with focus/exposure...
asterope* 12 years ago
found an article about candid photography in australia...

4020.net/unposed/privacy.shtml

basically, the only illegal action taken was in the shopowener hinting that i was a paedophile...
as for pedro's predicament... perfectly in your rights to take pictures of the girl you are with... especially seeing she didnt mind.

i think that alot of australians get their rights mixed up with americans rights... sheesh !!
admin
Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
Thanks for that asterope. It's worth noting that the lack of legal restrictions on photographing (& videoing) is part of why it's so easy to deploy surveillance cameras in Australia. But those cameras have no soundtrack because there are profound restrictions on the recording someone's voice.
If it is the woman from the shop where you have to pay money just to get in and browse (yes, really) then I'd expect it from her. She has offended me on a number of ocasions in and outside her shop. Ignore her, she's mad. Just because she looks like a hippie doesn't mean she is. I'd describe her as rude, meanspirited and extremely suspicious of people (Even though the content of her shop would suggest otherwise). Hehe, do you get the feeling I'm bitter towards her?
Tanya in BNE PRO 12 years ago
That is pretty insane, as far as people getting uptight over pictures. I understand the concern over pics of people, but a car? Makes no sense what so ever to me.

I got in trouble once for taking a picture of a restaurant sign by a little security guard. I just played stupid and walked away.
asterope* 12 years ago
sacredheartarts... how did you know it was her ;)
Who else would be bonkers enough to give you a tongue lashing in the street? =)
.steve.t [deleted] 12 years ago
See the Sydney Morning Herald (30/08/2005) "Not a pretty picture in this legal minefield" www.smh.com.au/news/technology/not-a-pretty-picture-in-th...

The story is background to a discussion paper "Unauthorised Photographs on the Internet
And Ancillary Privacy Issues" for the States Attorneys General.

Comments on the discussion paper can be sent to: Director, Civil Law Policy, Department of Justice, Level 4, 55 St Andrews Place, Melbourne, VIC 3002 by October 14, 2005.

The paper can be found at:
www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/legislation_policy/ll_lpd....
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Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
That's scary!
asterope* 12 years ago
i guess if this becomes law then street photography in australia is going to take a pretty big downturn... shame really.
but its just going to be much too hard to police... i doubt it will come through.
.steve.t [deleted] 12 years ago
If laws get passed that are more restrictive the policing and enforcement side can be probematic and arbitrary, but the law still remains. Any good points to raise so far?
Scott MacLeod Liddle PRO 12 years ago
What a caffuffle!
Nefertti.
I find the suggestions for legislation in that paper really worrying. Dodgy activities such as 'upskirting' are already covered by exisiting legislation - and quite rightly, as the photographer is taking an image of an area of the body that the subject has deliberately covered before leaving the house. she has a reasonable expectation that she can keep her body private.

What this paper is suggesting is that it should also be prohibited to take images that include subjects dressed for & undertaking activities they are happy with in public. the suspicion is that you're going to wank over them later - or present them so that others can 'enjoy' them.

now, it's pretty difficult to assess whether an image is 'for the purpose of sexual gratification'. different people find different images arousing - to ban any image that could arouse someone would surely mean banning (almost) all. of course, we could still take pictures in which everyone in the frame has consented - it'll be a bit tricky when visiting the opera house, admittedly. my main concern is that the onus will be on those taking photos, or posting them, to show that they aren't intended for sexy purposes. this could be tricky when the paper states that the problem with the south bank pictures is that the context was a whole lot of pictures of children. hhmm... that's probably what a lot of people's flickr accounts look like - you know people with children or nephews and nieces, grandchildren. i pretty sure that these people don't show their kids' pics for pervs to look at - but can they prove it?
asterope* 12 years ago
its almost sounding as if no-one can take pictures of their own children anymore... just incase someone choses to view them in an inappropriate way.

*rolls eyes* kids are growing up super-fast these days so parents and relatives need photos to remind themselves that their kids were kids once (im not a mother, but i only need to look at my cousins to see how fast kids "grow up" these days)...
the downside of this is that some of those super-fast growing kids are going to become lawyers, and some of them become the idiots that do stupid stuff like take photos of boobies on the beach.. and therefore stuff like this comes about and makes EVERYBODY very uncomfortable about pursuing a hobby/pastime/career which was not so long ago quite well looked apon, regardless of what it is you are actually taking photos of.

why cant we just all get along and stop being so reactionary and suspicious of people with a camera?
i read a news article recently about a woman being fined for sitting on a park bench because she didn't have a child with her. i can't remember what city this was, but people near children who don't have one are all considered potential paedolphile lechers now apparently. the photography thing could just be the beginning...
NRG78 [deleted] Posted 12 years ago. Edited by NRG78 (member) 12 years ago
I would have said "Thankyou for your opinion, but I'm afraid I have a different one on this occasion. If you're the sort of person that doesn't like to listen to other's oppinions, I suggest you move and let me take this photograph."

Maybe. heh.

Men get opinions as boys learn to spell, by reiteration chiefly.
Elizabeth Barrett Browning

I agree with no man’s opinion. I have some of my own.
Ivan Turgenev

Every man takes the limit of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.
Arthur Schopenhauer

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt.
Bertrand Russell

What is a rebel? A man who says no.
Albert Camus

A closed mind is a dying mind.
Edna Ferber

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Oscar Wilde

(^_^ )
Tanya in BNE PRO 12 years ago
I like the Wilde quote. Will have to use that in the future.
NRG78 [deleted] 12 years ago
Wilde did have a way with words .. and the gutter. heh
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
Maybe the Wilde quote could become the slogan for our Brisbane Meet-up group :)
admin
Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
Thanks Rae ... I'll add it to the droup description :)
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
Interesting recent story about people taking photos at a car accident in Melbourne see here
asterope* 12 years ago
i observed something funny yesterday whilst taking some shots with my mamiya... as it has a waist level finder people werent so 'funny' about me taking photos, perhaps because i didnt have the camera up to my eye they didnt realise i was pointing it at them?
the same goes for camera phones... weird huh?

as for the article you linked to Rae, i understand that people would be hurt by such images, then again alot of people are hurt by all sorts of images... and were it not for nosy photographers how would some of the most defining moments of modern history have been captured faithfully for posterity?

given that shuffling along to the scene of an accident is in poor taste (for some... i guess it depends on your own personal scruples) if people hadnt shuffled off to the scene of other 'poor taste' incidents, we wouldnt have photos of paris riots, the tsunami, the recent bali bombings, the 'fruitful' inauguration parade for mr. bush and the children overboard incident right here on our own shores...

i guess you could say you cant stop the progess of history, but you can capture it for a peek at the truth... *shrug* and people are so easily offended these days... you would be pretty limited if you stuck to making universally inoffensive images.
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
I think your point about capturing events is a good one and made by one of the callers to the show.

By the way your point about looking through the lense and photographing is a good one .. while doing some video I found it was easier to set the shot up and start recording, then stand beside the camera and talk to the talent made it a lot easier
admin
Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
G'day Folks

Australia Talks Back on Radio National is discussing one aspect of this on Monday. From the ATB web page ...
"Should We Ban Unauthorised Photographs Of Children?
Monday 21 November 2005
They're iconic images represented in many photo albums - pictures of children at play on the beach. But the taking of such photos could soon be outlawed in order to prevent them falling into the hands of perverts? So should we ban unauthorised photographs of children? Is it overkill?"

I think it'd be valuable for as many of us as possible to take part in this one. The program is at 5.00 pm (Qld time) & the call in number is 1300 22 55 76 (1300 CALL RN). Tell as many other Aussie flickerites as you can.

Cheers, Pedro :)
monkeyc.net PRO 12 years ago
More beat ups about Paedohpiles which have now become the new bogeyman in this country. Meanwhile in asian countries the biggest problem with paedophiles is the all the Australian ones who head over for child sex.

Id love to know what an 'authorised' picture of a child is? If the kid isnt near naked or naked then its not going to be of interest to the average kiddy porn lover.

This is like the stupidity of parents having to get permission slips to photograph school events - yet another sign this country is being run by the paranoid and the mindless in this day of post 911 hysetria.
Mr Magoo ICU 12 years ago
I've never had trouble when taking photos but then again I really don't enjoy taking photos of people. In fact, it shits me when people walk through a shot I'm trying to setup - Maybe I should file a police report for involving themselves in a photo without my authorisation... They've wasted my precious memory card space and what if I find the said person offensive - I could be traumatised for life.

Ok, I digress.. I'm being a little sarcastic. I'm in no way down-playing the problems caused by certain individuals within society but I am a little sick of this perception that anyone with a camera is some sort of deviant. We've become a paranoid society not unlike America and I think it will only get worse.
Ben Cumming Posted 12 years ago. Edited by Ben Cumming (member) 12 years ago
I think that it is a good idea to ask a parent before taking a picture of a child. It is reasonable to imagine people being a bit tight about that. It depends on the situation I suppose, if you are up close and really obvious then ask.

My only run in was in Bolivia where a bunch of ladies threw oranges at me when I tried to take a photo of a store selling freshly removed sheep heads. Crazy.
Elizabeth_ jE. 12 years ago
Gezz that's a bit ruff of her to bombard you with all those issues! lol.. You should have just said you knew the person and it was OK!! lol..wired!
monkeyc.net PRO 12 years ago
Freshly removed sheeps heads?

I cant see how you could sell one let alone open a store devoted to it :)
Stavage 12 years ago
Weird people add colour to the world. It's only scary when enough ppl take them seriously, or they get a bit of power. Which I guess is a problem right now isnt it... :/

Anyway I'd reckon it would be fun to take photos of this ladies shop. I'm sure she'd go even more nutty if she notices random ppl suddenly taking snaps of her store on a semi-regular basis.
Stavage 12 years ago
Btw, the whole paedophile issue is sad. I remember hearing about some mother who got in trouble in the US a while ago now because she took innocent photos of her children naked in the bath. The photo developer reported her. Now it's the entire world that's this crazy, not just the states.

How much sexual abuse is being done to our kids by the very act of calling what is natural sexual and deviant?
asterope* 12 years ago
stavage... i fully agree with you on that one... alot of damage and paranoia is being ingrained into children at a VERY young age by parents and people who mean well, but are actually pretty wrong!

i mean, whats an 18th or 21st birthday party without your parents bringing out photos or slides of you as a baby, naked on the changing table or in the bath to embarrass you in front of your mates?
i guess parents cant take baby photos anymore incase someone deems them deviant.
~BroBro 12 years ago
Legally she cannot do anything, so tell her no.
RaeAllen PRO 12 years ago
Neat yarn about the police warning an amatuer photographer about taking photos of the Shell Refinery
Mr Magoo ICU 12 years ago
Interesting article. I've been asked to "move on" about half a dozen times in the last 6 months. One was at the Port of Brisbane, yes I was on private property etc but the security guard appoligised for having to ask me but said he was just doing his job. On other occasions they havnt been so polite but I had finished shooting anyway. To be honest this has done the opposite to discouraging me - I find myself in locations of questionable legality just because I feel it's my right to take photo's of things that interest me.

So, who's up for an expedition to the nearst Shell refinery? lol.
tuxcomputers Posted 12 years ago. Edited by tuxcomputers (member) 12 years ago
After reading this thread:
www.flickr.com/groups/jpgmag/discuss/16142/

I did some research and produced this:
www.tux.com.au/files/photo_rights.pdf
Andrew Scott PRO Posted 12 years ago. Edited by Andrew Scott (member) 12 years ago
Very nice idea. I assume this is correct for Queensland? If so I'll be carrying this around in my camera bag in future.

Well done.
admin
Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
Fine effort tux ... thank you :) Like Andrew I'll be keeping a copy in my camera bags.
tuxcomputers Posted 12 years ago. Edited by tuxcomputers (member) 12 years ago
I am joining the Peninsula Camera Club ( www.peninsulacameraclub.asn.au/ ) and some of the guys there indicated that security at Roma St parklands is pretty quick to hassle people with largish cameras + tripods.

I will be taking a printout of the PDF and my new Kodak z7590 on a tripod there as soon as it arrives :)
admin
AdaMacey 12 years ago
Could I ask someone to email me a copy of the pdf (raymacey@gmail.com). I'm at work and can't access it from here, but would like to print a copy
tuxcomputers Posted 12 years ago. Edited by tuxcomputers (member) 12 years ago
Done, did you want a copy in OpenOffice.org format as well? That's what I used to create it then export to PDF.

Best part is OO.o is free.
admin
AdaMacey 12 years ago
Nah, pdf is fine thanks. I'm just going to print a copy and carry it around :)
monkeyc.net PRO 12 years ago
Been hassled at Eagle Street as well - again because i had a DSLR and tripod. Seriously the security guards need to get over it - the claim that its private property is basically bull - i used to work for a very large multi national real estate firm and there are NO rules about photography on their premises unless its commercial...

Ive worked in the Parklands with a tripod no worries though.

Mind you its always when im with MrMagoo ICU that security picks on me - dont know why that is :)
ChunukBair 12 years ago
I spent a lovely day in the Botanic Gardens and South Bank yesterday, taking pictures as I felt like it.

Have to admit though, that having a camera in full view at South Bank beach did make me nervous, in the whole 'what would he want a camera at a beach, with kids and bikini clad women around'.

Very good pdf you put together there tux...
admin
AdaMacey Posted 12 years ago. Edited by AdaMacey (admin) 12 years ago
monkeyc.net
said:

Been hassled at Eagle Street as well - again because i had a DSLR and
tripod.

Interesting. I was planning on taking my SLR and tripod down there
tomorrow night on grave shift (Well I was going to do it tonight but
forgot the tripod). Will let you know how it goes.

ChunukBair
said:

I spent a lovely day in the Botanic Gardens

Plan on going back there on the 4th of Feb for the Brisbane flickr meet?
ChunukBair 12 years ago
Am considering it Cyron, but am full of the usual newbie nerves, don't want to be too noisy too quickly :)
Mr Magoo ICU 12 years ago
Hey Monkeyc.net what are you trying to imply here? lol. You know where i've been and what I get up to with my camera. If I was security bait I wouldn't have half the shots I've taken. So Ner! :) haha. Mind you, I only don't get hassled when they don't see me.. hrmm...
admin
AdaMacey 12 years ago
ChunukBair said:

Am considering it Cyron, but am full of the usual newbie nerves, don't want to be too noisy too quickly :)


I haven't been to one myself yet, so you wouldn't be the only newbie there :)

Of course, I've been meaning to go since the first one, but this is the first time I'll actually get a chance to :)
admin
Bandido of Oz 12 years ago
ChunukBair: No newbie restrictions on meetups ... just join the group & come along.
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