Noisy Pitta 3:55pm, 14 February 2008
Hi y'all...Just a question that will hopefully spur a good discussion (and please no nastiness)...What constitutes copyright violations in amigurumi?

The reason I ask is because I know a lot of us sell our projects on- and off-line. Now, I know that there are several "classic" amigurumi shapes, like bear and bunny, that we've all seen, and if anyone were to sell them, I wouldn't consider it a copyright violation because the style is so prevalent. However, a specific example is elisabethd's work (www.flickr.com/photos/38635695@N00/)...Now that she has a book out, we can all "copy" her creations (even I do!), but if you borrow her techniques, such as eye patches or articulated arms or bobble toes, how different does your work have to be before you can call it original? And even then, is it totally original since all you may have done is taken someone's pattern and deliberately changed a few things so it doesn't look too much alike? And to follow the argument back to the beginning, how prevalent does an idea have to be before we would consider it to be truly prevalent?

All opinions, please, especially from anyone who feels they may have been a victim of copyright violation.
Crafts By AP [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by Crafts By AP (member) 9 years ago
I would have to agree with you about Copyright infringement. My thought is if you use someone elses pattern, even if it has been altered alot, I think credit should be given, for example, stating something to the effect of "I was inspired by so and so's pattern, and my end result was this".... not specifically in those exact words, but at least some recognition. Alot of amigurumi, knits and such, all have the same concept, but certain identifying features may make it different. Bottom line, I firmly believe recognition is due and to respect other peoples work.
Nathalie-amigurumi 9 years ago
Hello,
I am of agreement with you two.
There are unfortunately many people who cannot say that they copied from somebody or were inspired some, and who presents the thing like their own creation.
They should not know the words: respect and modesty.

I am recently impassioned by the amigurumis, and when I discovered Etsy, I did not understand what they was only all its sales of Kitty models for example.

I suspected that it was hacking, but as it was on Etsy, I had a doubt.

I do not speak sufficiently quite English to contact Etsy, and it is not my right, but why the true don't creative ones which sells of so pretty models on Etsy, contact Etsy to inform them of this violation of right?
Crafts By AP [deleted] 9 years ago
I know what you mean Nathalie, and your English is fine. I was on Etsy a couple days ago and saw an exact duplication of a pattern I purchashed a while back. Just based on the date it appears to be an outright duplication. People have no shame, no morals or respect for others peoples work. Now I checked this persons other patterns, and she had an array of beautiful creations, which makes me wonder how original THEY are. I know I will not purchase anything from her. I sent a little note to the person I purchased the pattern from and suggested she check it out. She can pursue it through Etsy. It really makes you wonder about people. We all get inspired by other peoples work, and we all use purchased patterns - give credit where credit is due and for God's sake, dont forge other peoples work as your own. Ok, I will get off my soap box now.
blu927 9 years ago
talking about this topic, I saw this person selling patterns on Etsy:
www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5233862
Lots of patterns in this person's shop are from some japanese amigurumi books. I think this person just traslated those patterns to english and now is selling them.
here is one japanese amigurumi book:
collection VOL.3
Noisy Pitta 9 years ago
I agree it looks dodgy. But there's a fine line, isn't there, because there are a lot of people on Etsy selling amigurumi books from Japan, and I personally depend a lot on those guys to get my Japanese books. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to find them. It does look like this person is translating the patterns into English and selling them as PDFs.

When I saw this, I struggled for a while what was wrong with it, but I've now figured it out: the person who's selling books has bought a book and is now selling it on. The whole book. By contrast, taking the pattern, copying it into English and then sending it out as a PDF is cheating, I think. I mean, it could be legit, but it looks like they've bought one book, and are making thousands of dollars off it! (714 items sold, at $2-$10!!!).

Somebody prove me wrong, please. I don't like to believe that there are truly dodgy people out there :(

*** Dashes off to report to Etsy ***
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
I also depend on other people reselling Japanese books to get some of them.

Since I had the possibility to look into some original Japanese books, I'm totally shocked, that some persons are making A LOT of money with simple translations of original, unaltered patterns from these books!!

Besides the aboved mentioned person (I bought some patterns there myself before I knew) I found another person on Etsy: www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5512700
and on DaWanda, too: en.dawanda.com/shop/hakola

As other sellers, I work many hours on developing and working out my ORIGINAL patterns. - Simply copying (translating) the work of somebody else and making money with it is not ok, that's cheating and rip-off! (Hope that's the correct word for that...) - Such people make me sick. :P
KATZ's Amigurumi 9 years ago
Hi all,
I am an Etsy seller and I've actually sent an e-mail to Etsy to complain about those who resells Japanese books and sells Hello Kitty Amigurumi.

And Etsy replied that they will look into it and tell me to use the flagging system.It have been 11 days already and I can still find the patterns I complained about.

As a seller making original amigurumi,I'm frustrated to see how much money they have made and how little sales I've got(ok...I seldom do promotions:P).
puncezilla 9 years ago
It bugs me when I see people making a lot of cash off someone else's patterns. Unfortunately They won't do anything on etsy unless the copyright holder complains . I don't use patterns as I'm new to crochet and don't know how to read them. I just make basic things like bears and other simple shapes. I don't really think just having articulated arms, bobble toes and eye patches are that unique to one person I think it's the whole thing together that makes it unique and copyrightable.
isisxosiris07 9 years ago
I think it just shows a whole lack of originality on that person's part and that is really sad. There is a difference between inspiration and copying though. The funny thing is the original artist's always looks best. Just like my Dr Zoidberg. When I posted it on LJ like 3 girls posted their copies later, and they ummm sucked ! They looked nothing like him ! That is why I crochet from freeform. Nobody can ever copy my patterns. Cause there are none !
Don't get me started on people not giving credit ! oh god! it takes 2 seconds to say THANKS TO......
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] 9 years ago
I've made the same experience with Etsy. Maybe it is time, that somebody informs the copyright holder about what's going on...
Crafts By AP [deleted] 9 years ago
If you are a "designer" and I use that word in quotes, you always run the risk of someone copying and profitting off of your design. I have done alot of research, and I for one give credit when I use or inspired by someones pattern, but go to Creative Commons and get your work licensed. It is a little bit of protection for your original work. It probably wont ever prevent copying and reselling, but at least you have your work licensed. It is free to license your work.

creativecommons.org/about/
fiberfriend1 9 years ago
I would have to agree with some of you ladies :) Elizabeths work is wounderful and think its sad when people steel her look or others and sell them...now if they are making creations from her book or similar to her work and credit her, but do not sell it but keep it in there collection i see nothing wrong with it. I do say it is sad people who skip out on there creativity and copy others work, no matter how far they are and make money off there hard work. I am glad someone mention this and is bringing this to light.
Hi !
I have to say than I don`t sell anything than comes from other person .. I sell only amigurumi plush , no patterns ... but ... even if I made some amigurumi from a pattern from other person ... I just can not sell that ... I usually sell my own amigurumi ... and the ones than I made from patterns from internet (free) or patterns from some magazine ... I just give those like present ... but never to sell ... that makes me fell bad O_O
But .. time ago I was thinking ...
If I shop for example one pattern from Delicious Crochet ... Can I sell my amigurumi ??? ... not the pattern just the amigurumi ???

Anyway ... we have to say to Etsy when somebody is making money with other people work XD ...

that`s all ... If somebody knows the answer to my question ... I will love the answer XD


x.O
Crafts By AP [deleted] 9 years ago
Most commercial patterns have a copyright - read what the copyright says. Some say it is ok to resell, others do not allow. And with some, you need to get permission from the author. To play it say, read the copyright - this will keep you safe from legal hassels.
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] 9 years ago
I've already written to sanrio.com and informed them about this people. No answer, nothing has changend. Seems that they're not interested.

So, maybe I'm gonna sell some translated Japanese patterns, too. I could also need such a lot of money - and if nobody stops it - why not try it?!?! (*sigh*)
Crafts By AP [deleted] 9 years ago
I think the best way to tackle this problem is to boycott the violator and not purchase anything from them if you know for a fact that it is a direct copy of an original pattern. Unless the individual holding the copyright steps forward, there is, unfortunately, nothing anyone can do. There will always be those people who have no sense of morals or originality and will continue to copy other peoples work. With Amigurumi, the concept is basically the same, with some minor changes here and there. I like to always acknowledge the pattern originator, and give credit where credit is due.
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
In the last days there came some "new" patterns up that aren't new at all. Just copies from somebody else's ideas with a few (or even without) alterations.

www.flickr.com/photos/jaravee/2667354364/
www.flickr.com/photos/jaravee/2652098741/
www.flickr.com/photos/jaravee/2652925436/

Most of these patterns look like simple copies - e.g. from anapaulaoli's creations...

Where's the line to copyright violation in this case?!
And is there a way to force people to give credit to the originator of the creation?
Janagurumi [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by Janagurumi (member) 9 years ago
The patterns from jaravee look like some from a japanese book ( I have to look after the name...). Yes, now after I have looked in the book, I also know where I have seen the sweets already once... like, however, the book is called, I cannot say, for it my Japanese is not sufficient...
nichancraftroom 9 years ago
oh, the crochetpattern, eh?...i have the books...i just can't think, how she can do that?...i almost buy from her but thank's goodness...my paypal still didn't work...i thought the books won't be available anymore...it looks like "oldies"...but one day, i found the book and bought it...fiuh...

i think some shape and size has it's exact pattern...i mean, like making the head thing or else...for one particular size, it's gotta be made with one pattern...

so, i don't know when it becomes the "original"...i think when the whole design is different...shape of the head, etc...

i crocheted a slipper once...it was supposed to use a slipper pads...but since mine hadn't arrive, yet, so i made the slipper pad myself...long before i dare my self to make it, i learn to make some slippers...i learned the shape, and what's the effect of using the stitches...how to make a shape...
my own slipper pads are original because there's no pattern like that in the world...

i want to learn making amigurumi because i want to learn about shapping...i want to absorb the knowledge then using it for my own design...

i found that some projects in japanese books are made from the "same" basic pattern...the circle, the round...the increase will be after x stitches...it's almost always like that...

i think if one is seriously doing design and learn every skill to help her/him to realize her/his designs, then, i think, the original will appear at last...
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
The above mentioned person posted a comment about coincidences and crossing lines in innocence. (In the meantime this comment has been deleted, too.) As the person suggests, I should drop blaming her and be fair, since she is so fair not to sell these patterns. - So I will.
Janagurumi [deleted] 9 years ago
Supplement: The name of the japanese amigurumi book is "Cute and Fun Seibido Mook Wakuwaku Book"
Zoria 9 years ago
what makes me a bit sad is the appropriation ( sorry if my english is incorrect) people claiming it's their design
we have an example right here on flickr...
the original
www.flickr.com/photos/crochetjardim/
and the copy
www.flickr.com/photos/24395863@N02/

i go from pissed off to "poor creatures, cant create..."

but i think its not a matter of copying the toes or using someone else's pattern for a head then turning into something completely different
-- Beth doherty's toes were there before her dolls, still her stuff are ultra creative and unique
and we all use the same basic techiniques ( for increases etc) and magic rings, imagine if someone had the copyright s for it!

so i think its a matter of respect.
respect the designers we admire, respect their creativity and the fact they are sharing images/ patterns with anyone , for free or charging for it. they are taking the risk of being cheated.
i am quite thankful for the people that share their patterns. i could not steal from them.

and i think its even a bit of stupid move: once the pattern is stealed, and the designer chooses not to share anymore.. where will the cloners run to?
:D


sorry for the long post,
hugs
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] 9 years ago
Thank you for your post! I fully agree with you! :)

Especially in this part: i go from pissed off to "poor creatures, cant create..." ;)))
gramarye PRO Posted 9 years ago. Edited by gramarye (member) 9 years ago
I'm new to amigurumi but not to designing - I design and sell my original dolls and their patterns and am very aware of the copyright violations in the doll world - but reading this thread and looking at the links I have to comment on the letter from Zoria who says:
"we have an example right here on flickr...
the original
www.flickr.com/photos/crochetjardim/
and the copy
www.flickr.com/photos/24395863@N02/

crochetjardim has obviously gone heavily into a lot of promotion which has probably given her a higher profile and her work (I think) is a better quality - but when I look at both lots of work, all I am seeing is two people who have crocheted cactii and mushrooms - very realistically - how can one be copying the other when they are both making realistic copies of natural plants.
mammasan 9 years ago
Good point. Where do you draw the line?
lycanthropica 9 years ago
hey all i am also new to crochet but not to designing
i find that a lot of copyright infringements can happen by accident

i always try to be polite to begin with because hate begets hate.

some people had nearly made a piece of clothing exactly the same as one i had made years preivously just because they had been inspired by similar things and especially with things being 'in fashion' it is common to have similar inspirations.

i just contacted them in a friendly way to ask about it.

it is also easy to accidentally copy when you are restricted buy stitches and yarn (unlike drawing where you can just make anything up)

i think appropriation is a good thing, pretty much all life is appropriation. what better to improve something so you like it more?! BUT it is not ok to claim these things as your own and very important to give credit where credit is due, and i would feel bad selling something i had no designed myself and wouldn't do it
but i do get much inspiration from others and especially being new to crochet learning new things from patterns i have purchased on etsy is very helpful!
nichancraftroom 9 years ago
Want to respond to this:

"Crafts By AP says:
I would have to agree with you about Copyright infringement. My thought is if you use someone elses pattern, even if it has been altered alot, I think credit should be given, for example, stating something to the effect of "I was inspired by so and so's pattern, and my end result was this".... "

I agree with you but I think there's not a lot of people do this...one person who does it is diyobasan, a handcarved rubber stamp crafter...she said it when her craft is inspired by a design not her own...

Hey, I even found a cute amigurumi here (in her etsy store actually), I just laughed...heyyyyy...that looks like one in my book...I knew it eventhough I'm new to amigurumi, but I new it...the styles are sooo and tooo the book...I didn't notice it at first...because I rarely open my amigurumi...Just last night, I read it intensively...I thought it's just her original design...she got a lot of compliments...I even like(d) her works...but now, mmm...if it's from the book, I can make it, too...just need a little bit more practice...
well...unless...this is what happened:

lycanthropica says: "..........some people had nearly made a piece of clothing exactly the same as one i had made years preivously just because they had been inspired by similar things and especially with things being 'in fashion' it is common to have similar inspirations.

i just contacted them in a friendly way to ask about it.

it is also easy to accidentally copy when you are restricted buy stitches and yarn (unlike drawing where you can just make anything up)..........."


I found that some amigurumi was made based on quite common techniques...the head-ball, the body...sometimes, it's just us who don't think that this kind of shapes can be assembled into a cute amigurumi...I found some hello kitty's projects are made with common and easy technique...except, of course the hello kitty itself (^.^)...

In my place (asia), people are quite easy about "copyright" thing especially when it's about art...unless it submit legally...but we are a craft country...so, it's hard to admit some crafts are their original or not...each person is skilled differently although they make the same design, but the result will be different...we can't just copy a design bluntly just to make a trend or money...
even a crafter from my place said she's ok that others sell the crafts made from her pattern but not in bulk...me, too...I don't mind about it...but I prefer and would love to if the inspired person acknowledge me...but If they don't, what can I say?...some people may be too embarrased to admit that their work inspired by someone else...

I'm going to open a store and some of my inspired crafts (made as part of learning) will be sold unless, I love it and want to keep it for my self...but if I don't want to keep it, I'll sell it...First I thought I wouldn't sell this craft but it's started to piled-up and becoming junk and I rarely give it for free to other...only special friends that I would give to...So what to do with those stuff? throw it away?...donate it? I would love if people who receive my crafts can appreciate my effort in making it...that's why I only give it to special friends...

I put them in a special section "inspired products" and I write on my policy that if the designer/publisher objects that I sell crafts then I will pull it out from the store...I also don't receive custom order for it, don't sell in bulk...I usually make once or twice if I want to learn/try a pattern...it's even in different colors usually...So, that's all what I'm going to sell...I'm not going to waste my time in making like 10 or even receive custom order...hey, money is not always the first priority...

Well, books I used for crafts 99,999% are Japanese...I don't know Japanese language...I don't read kanji...then where should I go for permission? I saw a person in etsy said that she got permission to sell the product made based on Jap-book she owns...but who knows?...
I also think some people sell stuff made based on Japanese books easily because they don't read Japanese and besides it's not their country...so who knows they use pattern from Japanese book since Japanese books for crafts especially amigurumi are a lot...unfortunately, some people know (^.^)...
So my tactic here is half passive and half active...passive: I'll be waiting for formal complaint or approval email about the inspired product and active: I put the products under special section...

I was almost to sell my slipper pad pattern on etsy but hesitate to do it since the internet craft world is too brutal...I haven't copyrighted it, yet...what I'm afraid is, someone will do it first on my pattern...You know, copyrighting other people project...
I thought craft world was full of nice people...but after "learning" and "seeing" products on etsy, I feel angry, then upset, disappoint, and now...I laugh at it (^o^)...I mean they sell the crafts not as part as their learning but they accept custom order or special order...meaning: they really-really intend to make business on it and based on I see, the other design is still not original...so, it's not really-really as learning curve...but money curve, indeed...

Hm...I don't know...every one seems so angry about copyright thing...me, too, once...but now, i think i'd rather concentrating on my original crafts (sewing mostly) and my crochet/knit and felt learning so I can, too, sell my own original design and dont have to depend to other people's designs...If I keep thinking about this, it just discourages me to create something original "me" (I felt this once before...)...

PS: if you want to know something the funnier story: some batiks, original from my country...i knew original because each batik in my country has their own story (it's cultural part)...some of those batiks are COPYRIGHTED BY OTHER COUNTRY...after that, ALL batik lovers from my country FIGHT to copyright it so it won't be copyrighted by any other country...
again: a traditional song and dance from my country were also admitted by other country...the song and the dance belongs to my country since I don't know...may be pre historic time...
AND...one of my batiks photos were asked to join in THAT country batik discussion/article...I was furious...and when my friends are told about it, they were furious, too...
It's a disgracefull COUNTRY dignity that we are talking about...if a country can do that, so, wouldn't be a "person"? I mean, tracking a person can be so harder and that's why making business on copyrighted patterns are everywhere...
Crafts By AP [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by Crafts By AP (member) 9 years ago
There really isnt anything you can do to prevent copying. Personally, I look at it this way - if someone copies my design, I will consider it a compliment that I inspired her. What makes an original design? It is the pattern and how it is written. Basically, with Amigurumi, the concept is the same, such as mushrooms, pigs, elephants, bears, bunnies, etc etc - what makes it unique or original would be the pattern. In summary, not much you can do about people who do copy. No sense of morals or originality.
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
A good thing might be to convo the person you think is copying, it might not go over well depending on the person your dealing with. but it is possible that this person doesn't realize she is doing it or maybe it was an accident. I know being a beginner designer, if someone thought I was copying, I would want to be aware of it so I could change the mistake or reassure the person it was by accident. For instance, I created a pattern a couple months ago and researched to make sure it was an original. I made it and then posted it a while later and found someone else had the same idea and posted it around the same time. We both didn't know while we were making it that we both had the same idea. But they are still both originals. I know that is very rare, but always go to the person selling the pattern, then take further action if needed.

Of course, there are always those who don't think of anyone else and deliberately copy for their own profit. I think that is very disgraceful.
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
Concerning copyright issues many people seem to apply double standards. If others copy - it's bad, if I do just one or two amigurumis from someone else's pattern and sell them - then it's ok. If I use a Japanese pattern and translate it into English - then it's my own work, so I can sell it, too. If I mainly use someone else's pattern, but do a few alterations - than it's my own original idea. And so on...

Also many amigurumi makers here post pictures of amigurumis they have made from a pattern they have bought (or found on the web) - and don't mention the designer of the pattern, so everybody thinks that it's their own creation.

@ bekahjan: You say, you want to be aware, if someone thinks, that you copied an idea. What are you going to do, if so? (I'm asking because it might be the case with one of my patterns.)
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
I just got your reply personally through flickr and was happy you came to me...although now I am seeing your post publicly and don't think it is very nice. There is no need to be mean to me in public. A private convo only would have been fine. When I said go to them in my last comment, I did mean in a nice way.

I am terribly sorry you think I am copying you. I had no idea your lightbulb existed, in fact someone else even has a light bulb that is closer to mine then yours is. www.flickr.com/photos/candypopcreations/2765660985/

I honestly sat down and created it on my own without any help. I didn't get the idea from anybody, I sat down with a crochet hook and a blank piece of paper and recorded what I did. When I made mine, I had no idea yours or any one elses existed. And it looks like my own interpretation, because the only thing the same about ours is the fact that it is a lightbulb. I never bought your pattern or even saw it before I made mine.

I feel like copying is copying the same look. There are many different types of teddy bears out there..so why not lightbulbs too as long as I didn't take your pattern and copy it. I have never bought your pattern or anyone elses. I had no clue any other light bulbs existed.

You ask me what I am going to do? Well, I am very seriously considering not selling it just so I don't step on any toes....but if you are going to follow what I said with me then you need to do it to everyone else who has made their own crochet lightbulb pattern and talk to them too.

I feel a little jipped too because I am new at this and created it not knowing another light bulb existed and for the past couple months I have been looking forward to adding it to my new store.

I never deliberately copied yours and feel like the shape of ours is totally different...I am not a mean person, I would never do anything to hurt or copy anybody. I'm sorry you feel that way.... I would like to hear feedback from others before I decide totally not to sell my design.

What makes it a copy? The fact that it is a light bulb? Because that is the only resemblance I see.....if you put the 2 patterns side by side, I bet they would be totally different.

Does anyone else have feedback? I want to do the right thing, but I honestly feel like it isn't a copy.

Crafts by AP what do you think.? I value your opinion. I just want to be reasonable and do the right thing.
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
It was not my intention to be - and I don't think I have been - mean to you.

I posted my opinion in public (I not even said what pattern it COULD be) - because it may be interesting for many others.

I didn't say that you copied my pattern. I just wanted you to take a look and see how it can happen that you get inspired by a picture you have seen on flickr, then sit down later and have an idea which you think is originally yours but could have been inspired by this picture some days or weeks ago.

I haven't seen any amigurumi light bulb before I created mine. Do you know one? Maybe I have been inspired by someone else's idea... could be possible... but at the moment I don't think so. It's a strange feeling when you created something that no one has made before (as far as you know!) - and then suddenly some others come up with the same idea (at the moment I can find two other light bulb patterns listed on Etsy - "younger" than mine) saying that's it's originally their creation (accidentally the same idea at the same time).

The pattern may be - but not the idea.
So it would NOT be a copy of the pattern - just "inspired by"...

There are many many many other patterns on Etsy and other shops where it's the same... and no one cares. It happens all the time.

It is never easy to draw the line... maybe it's impossible...

I think it was Crafts by AP who said those wise words: the only thing you can do as a designer is to permanently come up with new creations and better quality than all others do. :)
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
I am sorry I accused you of being mean. I guess I just took it the wrong way. Thankyou for clarifying. I also didn't see your light bulb before I made mine and I totally believe that you didn't see any others before you made yours. when you told me you had a light bulb too, I had no idea. (no pun intended) :) So I immediately went searching for yours. it was just one of those flukes. I do think that ours looks different from each other (they look like a different style), so I am still considering selling it because It was still my own inspiration...but I am going to ask the other lady who has the lightbulb to see how she feels so I don't step on her toes. Because hers and mine really looks alike. I was so shocked when I saw hers and maybe she will feel the same way. :)

I know you created your light bulb all on your own. I never once thought you copied your lightbulb. Sometimes people just have the same idea without ever seeing the other persons, for example, your angel and owlishly's angel look similar but at the same time totally different. Sometimes the same idea can be created without knowing about the other persons and that is what happened with my lightbulb.

I guess my question would be to everyone. I know it is totally wrong to take someones pattern and copy it or even make any slight adjustments and then sell it or make it appear it was all their idea to get the credit.. We are all in agreement on that. I make it a point to always give credit to those who have sold me the pattern.

But what do you do, when you honestly create your own idea and then later find out that some one else has something similar? Can you still sell it, but maybe put the clause that you came up with it your self but their are other versions? Or do you share it but not make money on it.

I know we are not all going to agree, but I am curious as to what everyone else thinks about this kind of predicament.
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
Thank you for your reply! :)

It's interesting how people can see the same things very different, isn't it?...

I would see more similarities between your light bulb an mine (maybe because of the colors and the face) - not with the other lady's light bulb. (Do you know the other one on Etsy? It's here: www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=12647899 ) But, as you say, they're also different. There are not too many ways to make a light bulb, I guess.... ;)

What really gave me a shock now was that you think that my angel and the one from owlishly look similar! Wow... Never thought, that someone could see it like that!

I know her beautiful angel and like it very much, but the only similarity I see would be the colors. And that's fun, because I choose the brown hair just because you can see the halo better. :)))

Now I'm considering to make a new version in different colors... don't want that people think I copied her idea... my goodness, this is really complicated. ;P
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
I don't think you need to change your angel at all. I think it is beautiful. :) It is very unique and beautiful. I didn't mean what I said as a bad thing. You know that you did not copy anybody's angel and that is what matters. My only point was sometimes creations look a little similar, but that doesn't mean its a copy.

I really do like your angel. I think she is perfect the way she is. :)
nichancraftroom Posted 9 years ago. Edited by nichancraftroom (member) 9 years ago
Crafts By AP says:
There really isnt anything you can do to prevent copying. Personally, I look at it this way - if someone copies my design, I will consider it a compliment that I inspired her

=================================================
this is interesting...very-very interesting...I remember one singer in my country got famous because of her cd music was copied sold illegally...really...
but recently I just thought the same...of course, as long as the follower acknowledge the original creator...if not...well, it's useless...hehe...

This is my motto in my web and my webstor: don't copy, get INSPIRED...yes inspired...inspired to learn more, inspired to do better, inspired to make the same and develop the original design...inspired to be creative...not just copy...

===========================================
Basically, with Amigurumi, the concept is the same, such as mushrooms, pigs, elephants, bears, bunnies, etc etc - what makes it unique or original would be the pattern. In summary, not much you can do about people who do copy. No sense of morals or originality.
===========================================

Yeah, it's hard to find a super original pattern...I found some fillet/granny square...in two different books (may be more) has the same pattern...
to be honest, I made a bag based on regular granny square from a book...somehow, I assemblied the squares a little bit different from the original pattern/idea...the result? totally different...and I found it that I'm not the only one...sometimes, I saw the same square in another book made into a totally different style of project...

I think what makes a design is "original" is the style of the maker/crafter...
what makes me upset sometimes, some people also copy the "style"...I think, eventhough a style is so d*mn cute but pleaseeee... (T.T) ...I don't know...everyone has their own opinion...no one is absolutely right no one is absolutely wrong...
but I do think acknowledgement is an important thing...

I also saw some amigurumi style...I think the pattern is basically common (you know start with making a ball with 6 stitches, etc, etc...)but I don't know...the result is just different...here are my favorites:
saplanet, amy gaines, and ana pauli...I love their works...I wish I can get there, too, some day...there...the planet of my own amigurumi style...
Sheep RH 9 years ago
about style, originality and copy
I am a graphic designer, I have to be creative in my work, and amigurumi is my stress relif hobby...
Some times i just want to do something to relax myself and I dont wanna be stressed about having to be creative and come up with a super original idea that no one has seen before... so I follow a patter, follow a style but i'm still proud of my craft
I think some people are taking this originality thing too serously (apart from selling other ppl work)... I'm starting to feel guilty for buying a pattern and... well... making it!
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
I kind of feel the same way, but a little different. I want to make my own patterns but am coming to the point where I'm afraid to, for fear what I design will look like someone else. I am so scared of my stuff accidentally looking like someone elses work. I make it a point not to copy, so I get scared that people will not think it is original when I am trying so hard to think of different things. It starts to take the fun out of crochet and creating. Amigurumi use to be my stress reliever, but is becoming my stress creator. I realize I just need to get thicker skin and as long as I know in my heart I didn't copy that is all that matters. I can only try my best. this will just take a learning curve for me.
Crafts By AP [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by Crafts By AP (member) 9 years ago
In reading all these replies, if everyone gets scared to create because of the possibility that it may resemble another pattern/item out there, where would all of the beautiful creations go? Nowhere. Amigurumi is an art form that originated in Japan - those Japanese artists created all of the beautiful items and published them. I have seen exact copies from those books, translated and sold - that to me is wrong. But, I look at it this way - amigurumi has basically the same concept - your originality comes to play in technique, pattern and verbiage. Alot of work goes into creating a pattern, spending many hours making sure it all clicks - I think you will always run the risk of having your creation resemble another persons item. Just give credit to your inspiration (if that is the case) and keep on creating. A lot of beautiful work out there. Unless it is an outright copy, (I mean pattern, verbiage, technique, etc etc etc) my opinion is onward and forward and keep on creating. License/copyright your work. There are alot of very talented people and I love seeing the wonderful creations here. The Amigurumi community is a large one, there is room for everyone... cant we all just get along? Keep the beautiful creations coming!
The Vintage Dreamer PRO 9 years ago
Very well said! :) Thankyou Crafts by AP.
Janagurumi [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by Janagurumi (member) 9 years ago
The following has recently happened to me:

I have crocheted a little deer, Deery-Lou. That was in July. I put the pictures on Flickr on 28th July and 1st August. Since the 1st August, I sell my own original pattern on DaWanda.
Now, a few days ago, I saw this

Deery

It´s the same as my Deery-Lou !!

The person copied MY pattern and sell it now on her Etsy !!!

A friend of mine posted a comment under the picture of the copy, but the person deleted it ! Now I ask myself whether this is a confession of guilt. Or whether it just makes no difference to this person that she was got while copying!
She copies not only my deer, she also copies other Amigurumi of members here on Flickr. Look at her Fotostream and then at the streams from Amigurumiparadise or ElisabethD!!!

We put here our pictures, that others see how much fun our hobby makes to us and how much time we invest in it. We don´t put our pictures on Flickr so that certain people sell our ideas as their own!!!
It´s no problem to make an amigurumi, inspired by the pics here !
But stop sell OUR ideas !
Fluxx 9 years ago
I totally agree that no-one should sell someone else's ideas.
I'm a little puzzled, though. In the discussion below your photo there is some mention about your deer looking "like the original". So what if the other girl made a pattern from that original, just like you?
jesirose 9 years ago
I have to agree with Fluxx, you copied someone else's idea and you're selling that pattern, and you're upset that someone else did the exact same thing? Looking at the photos there are several differences in the deer, did you actually purchase her pattern or sell yours to her and see that the PATTERN is identical?
Janagurumi [deleted] 9 years ago
I have not sold the pattern to her. She is none of my buyers on DaWanda. I do not know her pattern, I add this. But I am not the only one with whom she copies. My pattern of the deer is the original.
If she at least admitted that she has been inspired by my deer, it would be no problem. Amigurumis live on inspiration.
But she said, that it´s her idea, her original. And that´s not right.
And now I do not understand, why I am attacked, only because I defend myself against this idea theft!
Fluxx 9 years ago
Sorry, I did not want to attack you. But you say below your own photo of the deer that it is inspired by a photo you have seen. I just asked whether it could be that the other girl might have been inspired by that same photo, without having anything to do with you. Since in one of the comments someone says how close your version is to "the original" I think that might be likely.
Can you please clarify this?
AmigurumiParadise [deleted] Posted 9 years ago. Edited by AmigurumiParadise (member) 9 years ago
Well, I do not agree with making this pedantic difference between "idea" and "pattern". In my opinion, if the original IDEA (or "design") is individual and new, then it's not fair to say a pattern seller did not copy it, when offering a PATTERN for exact the SAME IDEA (and maybe altering a few little things to make it a little bit different).

If someone would make a pattern for a bee girl as the one from "Owlishly" or for a monkey as the one from "DeliciousCrochet" (I think their patterns are very individual so I pick them out as an example) - would that be no copy?

When the outcome is the same - even with a different pattern - then IMO this actually IS a copy. (A copy to make money with someone else's (good) idea.)
jesirose 9 years ago
Janagurumi, Yours isn't the original, you say you copied someone else. (You: "I was inspired by a picture from the Internet to crochet her." )

If you haven't seen her pattern you don't know it's the same pattern. If you seriously think she copied it, buy her pattern and if you still think it's too close, then contact her and discuss it, don't just talk about it to other people who can't do anything about it.

Can you show us the original you were "inspired by"? You don't show it in the flickr page. How is that any different, you're not giving any credit to anyone else. Do you want her to say she was inspired by you, or just say she was inspired by something and not specific?
nichancraftroom 9 years ago
I think, I've seen this kind of deer somewhere in a book...sorry...but i was intensively looking for amigurumi book...and one day, I saw this kind of deer...but somewhere..I really didn't remember...I didn't mean to attack you...but seems like both of you are inspired by may be the same picture...just because the deer is difficult to make doesn't mean no one else but you can make it...right?...

I have watched the both amigurumi...well...I'm not an expert my self...I'm quite new in amigurumi but lately I'm intensively learning to make my own pattern...I can tell, they came from different pattern...the nose, the mouth, the leg, the tail...the both body...I don't know...but seems also have a little bit differences...one is more "box"-shape...another one is more "oval-egg" shape...

The pattern seems different but I would prefer the STYLE that is the same...How the eyes was make (the round)...and since the eyes is quite big it becomes the center...in a flash, I would say they are similar, too...

Anyway...do you know mokona?...Mokona is an anime character by CLAMP...I was inspired to crochet it...you may see my flickr album...
and while I was looking for the reference (pictures from all sides), I found that another person crocheted it, too...Do I copy her mokona style?...hell, noooo...I only see the picture along with other pictures in yahoo picture search result...I didn't even use hers as my referrence (I need the original draw pictures not other people's work)

but I know one thing: we were inspired by the same creature...
Will I be mad when someone copy my mokona? depends...if she/he is inspired to make mokona with her/his own pattern (looking for her/his own referrence), well, Mokona is not a creature character that I create...I can't be angry...but If let's say, she/he bought my mokona and rewrite the pattern or remake or modify my pattern, I would be furious...
and I still have a homework: I must prove it when the second situation happens...

No one is attacking you here...I thought first, just like you, the others attack you but after reading the posting and see the comments under the pictures...ah...I get it...

I experienced the same situation...i was furious when finding it but now...I just try to laugh at it...I believe my ability...if i only copy, my crafts will be dead someday...but if i'm creative, my crafts will grow up and keep developed...

===
about making original amigurumi, here my opinion:

books are sources to get techniques and learn...after making one or two amigurumi from books, I close my book and try to create something based on the technique but try not really remember the pattern...the bun, the mokona are two of my result in making my own amigurumi...all techniques (making round, pointy shape, etc) were from the books but the result? we can make everything we want...
It is like having a test in a school...after you learn the theory...you close the book (and the teacher won't allow that, too), then you, with your own effort and brain, try to resolve the problems...
If you are able or at least try to "close" your "cheat"/"theory" amigurumi book, you'll find your amigurumi at last...
Janagurumi [deleted] 9 years ago
This is the picture I made the pattern from. Not from a book or something like this.

Picture

Letztendlich geht es nicht darum ,dass ich kopiert wurde,sondern um das Prinzip.
Es gibt hier genug Leute, die die Vorlagen von anderen als ihre Eigenen ausgeben und damit viel Geld machen.

Mir reichts ehrlich, ich wollte hier auf das Problem nochmal aufmerksam machen und werde dafür nun von allen Seiten angegriffen. Diejenigen, die hier keine eigenen Ideen haben und sich großzügig bei anderen bedienen, bleiben dagegen ohne "Schelte".
Es vergeht einem echt die Lust, weiterhin hier seine Meinung kund zu tun, wenn das Feedback nicht mehr sachlich bleibt.
Fluxx 9 years ago
Dass Du Dich angegriffen fühlst, liegt an Dir. Welches Feedback war denn nicht sachlich? Es ging nur darum, das Missverständnis zu klären, ob Du auch eine gehäkelte Vorlage hattest (was nicht der Fall war, was aber aus dem, was unter Deinem Bild steht, nicht klar hervorgeht).
Dieses Missverständnis zu klären bedeutet doch nicht, dass irgendwer denkt, dass das, was Kawaii Gurumi macht, richtig ist.
Aber auch wenn Du hier nicht mehr posten magst; lass Dich nicht davon abhalten, weiter kreativ zu sein!
jesirose 9 years ago
Sweet Nichan's Craftroom: It does look similar to the deer in Amigurumi Super Happy Crochet Cute by Elizabeth A. Doherty, but has several differences, notably in the ears, eyes and the size of the body.

Janagurumi: We're not attacking you, but pointing out what may have happened instead. When you say you were inspired by a picture on the internet, the logical thought is that you meant a picture of another ami, not just a graphic of a deer. I would add that to the description if I were you.

As I said, if you think the other person is copying you, you should confront them - that applies to anyone who thinks a pattern was stolen or copied. Not just you.
FaeDreamer 8 years ago
I'm having the same problem. I've been learning how to create Amigurumi from patterns in books. I want to create my own original ami's but almost all ami's seem to use the same basic stitches and shapes. How much would be considered a copyright infringement? Here are a couple of websites I've come across and although they are still a bit gray on the subject are helping me understand it a bit more:

yarnaholic.wordpress.com/the-copyright-faq-for-knitters/7/
www.purplekittyyarns.com/info/copyright.html
www.knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html
Pink Pink 8 years ago
I agree that people should not sell copies as originals. But I also think that copying is part of the learning process. If you really enjoy what you're doing they may take "inspiration" in various places, people end up making something new and original - I think that is the main reason of doing it...
There is no point in being upset for other people copying our work, because by exposing it on the internet makes it impossible to avoid that, although I understand it may be really annoying.
And these discussions just look like the old question: who came first the egg or the chicken?
That's how I see it...
just biz! PRO 8 years ago
I always ask the person I buy the pattern from to let me know if I can resell items made from their pattern - I have yet to write patterns myself but I don't want to piss anyone off
irenestrange 8 years ago
Wow, what did I just walk in on! Quite a discussion we've got going on here!
Let's think where are we allowed to take inspiration from? Isn't taking someone else's character illustration and turning it into a 3D object a breach of copyright too? Especially if they are well known licensed characters like the poor Hello Kitty.
Is our work original because of the idea or the execution?
(By the way, I cannot believe that people are translating japanese patterns into english and selling them on as their own! Shocking!)
textiles2020 PRO 8 years ago
If people are this stressed out by amigurumi and accusing everyone of copying, I don't want to learn it anymore. TT_TT I have enough stress already without making generic amigurumi and having someone accuse me since they made the same generic item...

I'm going back to sewing plushes. Bye.
minami626 8 years ago
I think no one should resell the pattern. However, selling finished projects is fine with me. People do put in a good deal of effort in making them. It's much more work and much less profit than selling patterns.
For pattern writers, when you put anything, I mean anything, on the web, there's always a risk of being violated. We can only pursue the ones(who are reselling patterns) that we run into. Other than that, let's hope more people would be honest.
irenestrange 8 years ago
Good thinking minami626 - honesty is always best! ^^
Jellibat PRO 8 years ago
selling items from others paterns is not ok, unless the pattern writer gives express permission to do so.

selling designs based on other peoples art work isn't really ok either without permission or a licensing contract.
if its for your own use only and your not profiting its fair use

it really is best to be creative and make up your own stuff from scratch.

things like those deer are based on vintage cartoon drawings , though new versions are still liable for copyright. I have a copy of a ami deer pattern , but its from a japanese pattern book, and i got a few years ago. before i know of any western ones

also accusing others can be tricky. some things are universal and can happen independently, so you need to be 100% sure before accusing people of copying.
SykoSam 8 years ago
You can't copyright an idea. I think it's ridiculous all these elitist accusations like "You made a lightbulb, but so did I! You stole my idea! You should credit me as your inspiration!". That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. What about Edison? He invented the lightbulb to begin with. How about GE or many of the other lightbulb manufacturers?

I agree that one shouldn't buy a pattern and try to sell it (unless that was part of their agreement with the creator) or translate it and sell it, but that's a far cry from creating something yourself. Not a single person here came up with the idea for a bear, a clown, a donut or a deer. Not one. All of those things existed before you did.

Copyright and trademark are very specific legal terms. Nintendo can copyright their exact design for Mario, but they can't sue someone who creates a character that's a stout Italian man with a mustache. Disney can't claim copyright infringement if someone makes a human-like mouse character who wears clothes.

Of should Disney be suing those who created the amigurumi deer because they have a cute deer already?

I can't believe the cattiness... Having recently ventured into amigurumi, I was excited to see a flickr group like this one... Until I realized that I would probably have someone on here go "OMG! That's my design! You need to change that to say that you were inspired by me!"

I don't see any originality here. I see a lot of talent, but not originality. There are no original ideas.

Or are all of you crocheting your own unique way that you personally came up with? Use the hooks differently? Don't use anything like 'sl st" or "ch5" or "sc" in your patterns? Coming up with some new creature that nobody else knows exists yet?

*shakes head* So sad.
irenestrange 8 years ago
I think what bothers people is when the execution of an idea is a clear copy of someone with a very specific style, and you can easily tell where the inspiration came from.

We all use the same techniques and materials, and crochet in the same way, much like all composers use the same 7 notes, and designers have same software packages. It's the way you put the stitches together that makes it your own style. And that's the bit that's most fun - seeing how others have interpreted the same living thing into an amigurumi!

I bet if you asked each of us in the group to make a Lion you'd get a dozen different looking amigurumi, though of course there'd be some similarities... Maybe we should do that as a challenge, if anyone's up for it? ^_____^
[Calita] 8 years ago
That's a great idea!!a monthly challenge *-* we should have an official thread for that! i'm sure that everyone will love it!
somecookie 7 years ago
This looks to have cooled down enough so that I feel like I can share some of my thoughts on the topic. I agree a little with everyone (wishy-washy, maybe!) I hate to see someone's pattern copied because I think designers will work harder putting out new stuff if they are getting whatever they want from this, be it money or recognition or whatever.

I like to buy ami patterns from etsy. The better these designers do the more they will produce. It's nice to have a pattern all ready to go but I have made my own patterns for years and crocheted in spirals long before ami ever showed its face, so did my mother. My mother made crocheted animals using the spiral and she even used the adjustable loop in the 60s, and my grandmother showed it to her, I have no idea where my grandmother learned it, she used it to start doilies. This stuff is not as new as many of you would like to think, its just out there now because of the internet, and money is being made so its hot.

I think its funny when I buy a pattern and the designer goes into depth about what I can and cannot do with it. I'm surprised they don't tell me not to show my finished project to anyone. I have no desire to sell or copy, so no big deal, but how much control does a person really need.

A light-bulb...really? How many cats bears etc etc that look about the same are out there! I thought about making one myself. Does someone have the ball copyrighted? I think something has to be more unique to be UNIQUE. It has to be something not everyone can sit down and do without a pattern.

A few years ago I had young friends that named their baby Dillon because they thought it was unique. So did thousands of other people.

There are very few new things in the world, and if you think you have a unique idea for crochet, someone else is probably thinking the same thing. Especially if it is a common everyday household item.
ZeldaGrimaldi 6 years ago
Well, I have a doubt. Can I sell amigurumi finished projects, stating clear that they're NOT my design, just my plain manual work on crocheting? (giving credits and even saying the people where they can find the original designs and the patterns to buy if they wish to)?

I ask this because I am facing a problem generated by crafts. Some time ago I started to make crafts as a kind of physiotherapy (I was facing aggravation of essential tremor and at that time I could barely hold a cup without soaking myself). I did knitting, crochet (specially amigurumi), plushies, mexican crafts, papier-maché, filzing, soap (yes, soap...although these were not so therapeutic to craft). My health condition improved, but my house became choked full of crafted stuff. Crafts are everywhere: in the closets, drawers, walls, ceilings, basements, hooked in the windows and doors, above the furniture, under the furniture, as toys to my cats, in my dog's house, being chewed by creatures and near everywhere people can trip on them (seriously, some days ago I stepped hard into an old piñata that was rolling in the garage floor...Not a pleasant experience, I assure).

As a control measure, I started to dispose of them. I gave some to charity, others to friends and relatives...but even they are getting tired of receiving always "another weird crocheted doll" or something alike from me.

So I thougt: "What if I put these dolls on sale?" At least would be a way to uncramming my house without bothering the people around me: a buyer would buy only if he/she really wanted the doll. And, I think, would be a way to make some money of my "precious and beloved junk", just as people do in backyard sales.

Would this be an infringement of copyright, and in this case I should be deep fried on cholesterol-free peanut oil, or is something ok to do? Remembering the crafts design are NOT my creation, but I would be putting this clear, and explaining that only the plain handwork were mine.

There is another puzzling point I should ask about. Some days ago I was at a japanese bookstore with a friend. She was looking fascinated exactly into the amigurumi books, amazed on how the several bunnies and teddies shown were so cute. But she don't bought the book, explaining:

"I don't know a thing of crochet. Even if I wanted to learn, I have RSI and can't hold even a pencil, what to say of a crochet hook? But, seriously, I would love to have these cute bunnies in my house, and if someone crafted them to me, I'd like to pay fairly for the yarn and for the effort in doing a work I cannot do. Ah, and I don't read a thing in Japanese."

Well, what to think of a situation like that? As far as I know, many authors of amigurumi patterns put a crazy load of restrictions on the use of the pattern: you can do an amigurumi from it, but only for your personal and privative use, can't sell it, can't show it, etc. But what to say about people that can't crochet: so automatically these people should be prohibited to have amigurumi in home (as is forbidden to sell the finished amigurumis, so they automatically can't buy), unless they have a friend kind enough to crochet it for free?

And, also, people cannot show the amigurumi they have at home (so mandatorily having to blur the image of incidental amigurumis that appear, for example, in the Facebook pictures of their 6 years old daughters birthday parties)?

More: does the bookstore infringed any copyright of amigurumi exposing the book for sale (and allowing people to browse on it)? Should the book be into a plastic sealed bag? (a dark one, to avoid people peeking on it?)

Well, several doubts...Any thougts on it (or, regarding my personal situation, should I simply throw away my amigurumis, once they filled my house up to the top and almost none of my friends want them anymore)?
EBLittleCreations 4 years ago
I dont understand, because I read that only the copyright is for the "PATTERN", they can only copyright whats on paper. If I get a pattern and make something from that pattern, then its mine right? I bought the pattern, I bought all the supplies to make it, and I took my time to make it? Then why can't I do what I want with my finished product? Now, I know you are NOT allowed to sell or make any changes to the pattern if its copyrighted. And I am not going to try and sell someone elses pattern that they worked so hard to create. However, I work hard to create a product from that pattern. Then if you just want to be the only person to have that pattern, then dont sell it. Thats just something Im confused about, if someone could pleae clear that up. I make my own patterns, and I have found some free ones as well that I change up OR people who say "free to use anyway you want".
Groups Beta