Discussions (1290)

Rudder needed, help

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DAN @ CO. says:

Hi guys,
I just come back from 2 weeks holidays and found out that my rudder is gone. I need new rudder[ or second hand], also may help if someone has rudder dimensions.
Thank You
Danny
Originally posted at 9:32AM, 17 August 2009 PDT (permalink)
DAN @ CO. edited this topic 119 months ago.

busy home [deleted] says:

what a B ,,,, It has to be unbolted from the lower pintle!!
who would want An Achilles rudder??/
I can give you dimensions ,, A template would be better
making a new one would not be a cheap job,,
I know a mate who could do it.
ages ago (permalink)

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pjbharrison says:

Hi Daniel
That's dreadful
I had my Wayfarer stripped while at the Mirror worlds in Wales a couple of weeks ago. Outboard, rudder anchor, all ropes and halyards, all cleats and jammers, spinny and pole, toolkit -everything!
My Achilles 24 is still in my garden. I can take some photos, measurements and cut a cardboard template for you, if you like.
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

It is incredible what lengths people will go to!!!!! there must be a scrap Achilles out there somewhere that doesn't need it's rudder....
I agree that it won't be cheap to replace, the rudder itself is a fairly simple construction which is a small blessing.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

It aint that simple,, a stainless shaft in glass , small area weld on tounges, and a cord shape,, very tight fit , Ron s on the case anyway.!!!!
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Ok Daniel,,, Ive had a look this morning..
Revised my opionion ,,,,,,,,,,, Ithink wood would do, seeing you have a man who can..
1 1/2 inch thick marine ply, taper to aft about 1/4 in ,,,, 13 ins front to back,
foreward edge is 30 1/2 inches from pivot to hull,,,,
aft edge length is 32 1/2 ins
top of rudder is square,,
bottom not,
you need 32 ins of shaft in the hull
plus rudder
this stainless shaft is 1 inch diameter you may not be able to get it!
I have a shaft 42ins long you can have free ,, this would give you 10 ins in the rudder ,, only just enough,
Originally posted ages ago. (permalink)
busy home edited this topic ages ago.

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DAN @ CO. says:

I have only 3 party insurance. Yes I was told there was someone diving next to my boat. I am pretty desperate now. If you can send me the template or find someone who can make replacement, please let me know. I will pay any expenses .Thank you Ron and P.J.B. for the effort.
I will take May out of the water some day next week, then I will see how the lower pintle looks like.
Thank You guys
Danny
ages ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

You the man Ron. I am going to speak to the wooden guy, and then I come back to you.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

I have a nylon head stock , that would work ok free to you,
did they nick your new one?
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

Hey Ron is always the man! he will always help anybody, we are lucky to have him.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

your after a free chinneeseeee,,,
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

well now you mention it Ron... i have lost count actually who owes whom by the way finished the book thanks will stick it in the post.
I just find it really strange that somebody should go to all of that trouble to steal a rudder!!!!
After all it can only be another Achilles owner.... there can't be that many around up there in Scotland. lets just hope that they took it off properly and didn't do any damage to the Skeg
Poor old Daniel
Originally posted ages ago. (permalink)
Skykomish E29 edited this topic ages ago.

busy home [deleted] says:

To saw that pintle off under water ,,, stainless is a b to saw, would be a mamouth task, who would do such a thing ,,,, if it corroded,, and the bolt at the head stock was a bit loose ,,or not properly in its hole ,,, ,,, ,,, the sea would do the rest,,,,
I would have a good look under May before I made a new rudder,
ask a friendly diver,, Just a thought....
ages ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

I would agree with that last post.
ages ago (permalink)

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santalars says:

I cannot believe that somebody realy has stolen it for profit.

1st. Diving skills and equipment required
2nd. effort to get there
3rd. risk
4th. bad escape options

All this would make it a £700 to £1000 job for a thief. I would say you can well get a new rudder made for this money so I would not understand the motivation behind.

I think:
a) your rudder was made of gold
b) drugs
c) somebody don't like you

I agree with the last two posts. Have a look below.

Hope that you will get it sorted soon and with not too much hassle. Sorry that I cant be of mor help.
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

Has the tiller been left on the boat? if so then it would seem that the theory that the rudder may have broken off is a good one, or indeed if it was the tiller that was stolen then maybe , as the weight would be all on the skeg fitting that too could have caused the skeg mount to fail and the rudder to drop to the bottom...... how deep is your mooring? what is the bottom made of? if it is mud then it would be hard to find, if rock you could be pleasantly suprised..... though I wouldn't want to dive in that cold water...
Originally posted ages ago. (permalink)
Skykomish E29 edited this topic ages ago.

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rothwell_neil says:

If mud bottom then the rudder is probably sat vertically up in the mud. Lost count of the times my dad lost the seagull over the back to find it sat vertical in the mud when the tide went out. Mind you it may have only been once but remember it well. If the bottom pintle failed then it would still be difficult to see the rudder working its way out of the head stock and falling out. I guess that movement and gravity may do it. Cutting stainless under water is easier than on dry land as the water stops any local heating which hardens the stainless, always cut stainless wet to keep it cool.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

daniel has had a new headstock made recently ,, perhaps the bolt did not quite line up , and daniel thought it was secure ,, but it was only pinched,,?
ages ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

Daniel you can get 1" stainless bar from plenty of places and I would think around the clyde shouldn't be a problem. If you go looking get 316 grade rather than 304 grade as this is more resistant than 304 and as the post goes inside a wet tube then crevice corrosion might be an issue, but probably find that 304 was the original so maybe not! 317 is also an option, 310 will be fantastic but will cost more, if all you can get is 304 then should be fine but I would check every few years as with 316 fit and forget. 1metre will be about £40. If you see the L grade such as 316L don't worry as that just means low carbon and better for welding, even better corrosion resistance so fine.
ages ago (permalink)

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thomashuw18 says:

Are you all saying that the standard Achilles has a connection at the bottom of the rudder to the skeg. Last season I found that my rudder was bending away form the skeg at the bottom and it made steering difficult. When the boat came out of the water over the winter I found there was no bottom connection. I purchased a standard connection and this has solved the problem. If my bar had snapped due to excessive wear I think my rudder would have dropped straight out.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Yes a connector is standard ,, look at my photos ... Yes if the shaft broke the rudder would fall off !!
ages ago (permalink)

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Scott and Portia1386 says:

Daniel I know a couple of divers in Dunoon who might come across to look for your rudder. Otherwise if you can wait you can use Portia's rudder as a template if you can wait til early October
Originally posted ages ago. (permalink)
Scott and Portia1386 edited this topic ages ago.

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rothwell_neil says:

Daniel Isn't there another A24 on the hard at Rhu, there was 9 months ago when I was there so could use that as a template for the rudder and the bottom bracket?
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

A template is not really necessary asthe rudder is a rectangle apart from one longer trailing edge, Please look at photos I posted,
Making one would be level 4 on the difficulty scale,,,
As the proposed material at the moment is marine ply ,its easy to refine the shape when fitting it up.
The biggest problem is making the SS parts ,,,, is there a GOOD ss welder nearby. ?
I would put a piece of perspex in to the end of some 4 ins sewer pipe and have a good look around under my boat, Down the well if necessary,,,
I also wonder did daniel use the original headstock bolt which has its nose ground down to go into the smaller dia hole in the shaft???
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

Ron we are talking the Clyde here, home of British Ship building, if there isn't a good S/S welder there I don't know where you would find one!!!! ...haha.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Is that farther than Plymouth...
ages ago (permalink)

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Daddsie says:

Last year a few boats in Portland harbour had their props stolen whilst on their moorings.
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Yes but bronze has a scrap value,, I had the alloy mast and boom from Rosalee stolen ,, Bigger than the Achilles mast, ...
ages ago (permalink)

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pjbharrison says:

Were they taken recently, Ron?
Have you finished the caulking etc?
ages ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

No about one year ago....
No still have a bad thigh, no work at moment,, well a bit, resprayed Chunky last Friday ,, Best continued on general chat......
ages ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

Hi guys,
THANK YOU ALL, VERY MUCH, FOR YOUR HELP AND ADVICE.
Tiller and rudder head stock are still in the boat, only rudder is gone.
I am taking rudder dimensions and photos [ thanks Ron] , to the local men who is making wooden rudders, I hope to have a qote for price sun, I also want to dry out May against
the wall [next to her mooring is an old pier] to see what has happend under the water. After I will decide if I should hire diver and try to look in the water[ not sure rudder is there] or order new one.
Scott. I will very grateful if you can come to Gourock and give me advice about / or help me with drying out , because I never did it before.
I am sorry , I did not reply very fast, but also my car has broke downe and at the end of the next week I am sailing on Bavaria 44 from Inverkip to Bayona in Spain [milebuilders trip], so now I am working very long hours to be able to pay all of this.
Thanks
Danny
ages ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

If Tiller and headstock still present I would say that reinforces the theory that the rudder has broken off and dropped down to the bottom.
Unless of course they were in a position that would indicate that they were undone removed and placed somewhere on the boat
ages ago (permalink)

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pjbharrison says:

Any news on the rudder, Daniel?
ages ago (permalink)

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Scott and Portia1386 says:

No problem Danny let me know when
ages ago (permalink)

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Red Marlin says:

I had the same problem on the Medway when I had my achilles 24 no 110. The tiller and stock were still there but the rudder was missing I assumed deep in the Hoo marina mud. Chris Butler still had Achilles mould including the one for the A24 rudder, maybe he has it or knows of its whereabouts. Haven insurance said it was wear and tear and did not pay.
Tony Bannister RTed Marlin
ages ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

Found this link

www.tonymackillican.co.uk/index.htm

To a company that makes rudders
Originally posted 120 months ago. (permalink)
Andrew Curry edited this topic 120 months ago.

busy home [deleted] says:

I can make a rudder for you ,,, but your man would work out cheaper re postage,,
120 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

After dryied out and I can say it must be very easy to remove the rudder. You only have to take off the head stock and then is very easy to move the brass made lower pintle and rudder is out. Maybe Scott can explained better. Lower pintle is only stick inside of the shaft and is very soft.Broken shaft is solid at the top , where attached to rudder head stock, the rest is hollow, look original to me. Not sure if s/s hollow shaft is not up to the job becouse I think that original alloy rudder head stock and tiller bracket were even less stronger than any s/s pipe and they have worked for many years.I think they should be the waekist point.
My new rudder will have shaft all the way thrue, attached to the lower pintle at the bottom . In the winter I will or replace hollow shaft with solid one, or try to make him stronger by welding one more , thinner , s/s pipe inside the shaft. What do you think guys ?
Very greatfull for any advice.
119 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Is it just drilled at the bottom to allow the pintle pin to go up inside,
I cant believe they welded a pipe to a shaft,, How far up is it hollow?
If I were making one it would be solid all the way down with just a 25mm deep drilled hole to locate pintle..
Originally posted 119 months ago. (permalink)
busy home edited this topic 119 months ago.

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Andrew Curry says:

www.ankan.nl/download/How to build a Vegarudder.pdf This links shows how a rudder is made.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

It is hollow all the way up , except last few cent. at the top
119 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

I m amazed, I would not have thought a tube was strong enough,
Why go to the trouble of a join ?
I think Norman could ask Chris about this ,
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

It would be great
119 months ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

It would be great if chris could advise on this.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

think, they used hollow shaft becouse of the weight.
119 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

The heaver the better down there !!
119 months ago (permalink)

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santalars says:

As this is the only case of shaft failure appearingly we all heard about, and this was probably caused by the failure of the lower pintle, and given the age of many boats here, I think the design is not so bad after all.
119 months ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

Without question go for a solid shaft. It would be nice to know if they were built with a hollow or solid rudder shaft.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

just came back from metal supermarket, they told me that the broken shaft is not s/s, but pure quality some alloymetal whatever and s/s pipe should be strong enough to replace it, the guy making rudder suggests to fill up the new shaft with epoxy it should be very strong then. After my experience with original rudder head stock, tiller bracket and rudder shaft I wouldnot
call them heavyduty. All from same fragile alloymetal or cast or whatever staff. Now all replaced with proper S/S.
119 months ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

A solid 316 grade SS round bar is not that expensive see link below.

www.metals4u.co.uk/detail.asp?cat_id=83&prd_id=2938

I am guessing that's its 3/4 inches thick. I would base any new rudder build on a solid bar.
119 months ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

I agree with Andrew, I priced it up at £40 and would go solid as there is no issue with weight. Mine is solid and as the most likely damage on a rudder post is under stagnant conditions the inside of a tube doesn't appeal to me. Also any crevice corrosion at the hull interface would have a big effect on a tube and a small effect on bar. Go for 304 or 316 stainless bar stock if you can get it for both corrosion and mechanical reasons.
119 months ago (permalink)

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Andrew Curry says:

Hi Neil

Am i correct in saying that you have had the rudder out of your A24 and the standard rudder shaft is a solid bar.
Originally posted 119 months ago. (permalink)
Andrew Curry edited this topic 119 months ago.

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rothwell_neil says:

No but the top is definately solid and machined square section and I can't image that anyone would swage a tube onto a bar as this would be weak at the joint in twisting movement. Bottom bracket is still in good condition and no evidence of any damage at the hull interface so can't image that there are any issues. Also a good sign is that when out of the water there are no red stains dripping out the the rudder tube so can assume no corrosion in between the tube and bar. After a real good work out on the way home last week I would aim for a solid one just for comfort sake.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

well my one had solid top and someone did weld bar onto a tube.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

It says here that rudder has stainless steal tube farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/2679436839_48048899ac_b.jpg
119 months ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

Mmmh, would still go bar if you can.
119 months ago (permalink)

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DAN @ CO. says:

Hi guys,
wooden rudder I had in my boat [made by Lewis Thomas] was very bad quality. Started to split in the midle after 2 month in the water and marine ply used is 100% not marine ply. Wood is coming apart, mr. Thomas promised to meet me in marina and had never show up, his attitude is now very unprofesional..
Anyhow, now I decided to go for s/s one and I also had made new reinforced lower pintle, tiller bracket and rudder head stock. All done by Peter from ALL WELD Port Glasgow. The guy who made my ss bracket and ss head stock last year , both were good but I wanted them even stronger for this sezone.
It all did cost me around 180 pounds, 40 for marine s/s shaft and 140 for all the rest [material and work ] .
Well I am learning by mistakes . I would love to have your opinion.
Many regards
Danny
Originally posted 113 months ago. (permalink)
DAN @ CO. edited this topic 113 months ago.

busy home [deleted] says:

Not suitable for purpose,, Small claims court,, no charge to you,
sue for lift out and dismantling, and lift in when fixed,
113 months ago (permalink)

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Amrum 9171Y says:

Great piece of work on the new rudder - looks very strong, and fit for purpose.
113 months ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

mmmm i would be inclined to agree with Ron, go through the small claims court, and try and get some of your money back, it is unfortunate that there are "cowboys" in every walk of life who are unscrupulous . Still on the bright side your new rudder looks like it will outlast the boat!
113 months ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

Small claims court does cost you to lodge a claim, £25 when I lodged a claim.
113 months ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

but don't you get the costs back?
I think the only problem would be if this guy has no assets or money then you would be on a hiding to nothing
113 months ago (permalink)

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Daddsie says:

Rons the man on this, but I thought that S/S was no good immersed in salt water
113 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

I m no expert on this,,, I think we have a man who is though,,,

Some thing to do with exposing to oxygen ,,?
113 months ago (permalink)

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Daddsie says:

Taken from Wikipedia:

High oxidation-resistance in air at ambient temperature are normally achieved with additions of a minimum of 13% (by weight) chromium, and up to 26% is used for harsh environments.[9] The chromium forms a passivation layer of chromium(III) oxide (Cr2O3) when exposed to oxygen.

The layer is too thin to be visible, and the metal remains lustrous.

The layer is impervious to water and air, protecting the metal beneath. Also, this layer quickly reforms when the surface is scratched. This phenomenon is called passivation and is seen in other metals, such as aluminium and titanium.

**Corrosion-resistance can be adversely affected if the component is used in a non-oxygenated environment, a typical example being underwater keel bolts buried in timber.**
113 months ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

Yes I understand that to be the case too Daddsie, I think that Neil is the corrosion expert. But as I understand it from an article that i have read S/S/ needs to be exposed to the atmosphere, saying that you do get S/S fittings encapsulated in GRP??????????
Neil it is over to you..........
113 months ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

Gents, the short answer.

Stainless steel as we know it for the marine envirnment comes in A2 304 and A4 316 grades. Both contain 18% Chromium and 8% Nickel and they are non magnetic, A4 316 contains 3% molybdenum and this is useful stuff. If you have stainless that is magnetic it will be ferritic stainless, typically no nickel and lower chrome and no good for marine environments.

A2 is good for marine environments and as daddsie says relies on a passive layer of oxide that protects the underlying metal, it does reform and does corrode but at such a low rate you would never know. If you scratch it, it will repassivate and if you have to clean it use non plastic abrasives or at worse alumina. DON'T ever use wire wool or anything like that as this will embed steel and form the start of pits. If you have done this then you need to use a passivating solution to basically dissolve the contaminants and repassivate. Molybdenum makes the passive layer much more adherent and resistant as well as repassivating quicker, that is why A4 316 is better.

The layer does need oxygen to keep it in good nick but so long as it gets refresshed then that will be fine as seawater at 10C holds about 8 parts per million of oxygen and this will be enough. The rudder shaft is stainless and one might think that this would be prone to crevise corrosion, but as the boat moves this will be refreshed up and down the shaft so not an issue.

It may corrode in crevices but so long as these are open and not long fine crevices again not an issue. Where I would have a concern with Danny's rudder is if the tack welds along the seams do not seal the rudder as this will allow water inside the rudder which will not be refreshed as often. The oxygen in this will then be used up and there will not be any left to repassivate the inside. This will lead to pitting and crevice corrosion on the inside of the rudder and whilst it will take a while will be a long term issue. The issue will not be total structural failure just pitting and edge corrosion. When you pull it out for winter there will be rust stains coming from the rudder. If these seams can be sealed then the problem will go away.

Daddsie is right again on the keel bolts in timber as wet and no refreshing of oxygen, encapsulated in GRP no problem as nothing to attack and rudder and prop shafts OK but watch out for crevices, hence the habit of anodes on the prop shaft as these work for the prop and also help protect the bearing seal. And before you ask an anode on the outside of the rudder will not protect the inside much as need a good electrolyte path and this won't happen through small gaps.

Anyone for the long answer?
Originally posted 113 months ago. (permalink)
rothwell_neil edited this topic 113 months ago.

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Daddsie says:

What is the meaning of life? :)
113 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Count your blessings!
113 months ago (permalink)

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rothwell_neil says:

I can't remember names or birthdays but I never forget s*&t like this!
113 months ago (permalink)

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Skykomish E29 says:

see nice to have a genius on the team!!!
113 months ago (permalink)

busy home [deleted] says:

Do you mean .so nice to have a genie on the team...
Age catches up on us all...!
113 months ago (permalink)

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