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Pride in the work place (Mayor request to the DPG)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

For those of you at the meeting last week, and anyone else interested.... Here is more info... Please respond to me with a yes if you want to take part.. Not sure about the details with $$ or much beyond that but it should be a great opportunity for you and the DPG..

This as a project to get a photographer to see this as an on-going effort. A challenge to try to capture the essence of the work place. Ideally, the photographer would commit to a year long relationship with the department and the employees - talk to employees about the parts of their jobs that they would like the public to know about.

Another person is Aaron Molina who leads the Photography Guild in town. I brought to him the idea of the City making a donation to the Guild to support their non-profit mission - in exchange, they find volunteer photographers who might be willing to make that sort of longer-term commitment to a particular department. I could come up with $ from my contingency fund to make this happen if we get a large enough commitment from them.

Here is a draft listing of shots we could obtain for the web site:
> (purpose "Pride in the Workplace")
>
> 1. Police Dept: ride along with a police officer
>
> 2. Fire Dept: ride along on an emergency call
>
> 3. Public Works: follow the road crew
>
> 4. Park Maintenance: follow crew to parks
>
> 5. City Hall: go to various divisions and photograph people at work
>
> 6. Library: follow a couple of staff people around
>
> 7. Water and Gas: work crew
Originally posted at 12:52PM, 28 September 2009 PDT (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 107 months ago.

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(1 to 100 of 130 replies)
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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

I'm so in. But you already know that. :D
107 months ago (permalink)

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Shana Jo/A Mother's Soul is a group administrator Shana Jo/A Mother's Soul says:

I'd love to do this.
107 months ago (permalink)

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Akatzmarkphotography is a group moderator Akatzmarkphotography says:

hahah Ill provide his selfy or family portrait.. J/k
107 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

I would be interested as long as I can work it around my job.
107 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Yeah, I'm in

By the way, does Don know that we have no such non-profit status?
107 months ago (permalink)

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Amanda~Christine says:

I wish I could. I'll just sit and be jealous.
107 months ago (permalink)

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TwoOneoh! says:

I'm in for sure!
107 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Weeee. When is the next round of info?
107 months ago (permalink)

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nostalgicearth says:

I'm interested in the police, fire or parks
107 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

I have a meeting set up on Monday to talk to the city and will get more details. Thanks for the great response.
107 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Cool. I hope it can be worked out so I can do this on evenings/weekends/breaks
107 months ago (permalink)

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sunny00_04 says:

crazy!
107 months ago (permalink)

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Anna Merritt says:

I think this is a great idea!!!
107 months ago (permalink)

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J.Rabold says:

I love this idea as well. Would love to take it on, but alass I'm sure its been filled.
107 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Meeting didn't happen due to illness. Will reschedule next week.
107 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

I am meeting this Wednesday to get more details. More info to follow.
106 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Meeting went well. we are going to start planning this and should have full details by the end of next week. The city is willing to donate $500 to DPG and then for each photo that is chosen and used they will pay the photographer $10 a photo... But beyond the money the most important thing is how big this could be for the DPG. We will be getting some sort of official city ID with our logo and name on it and assignments will be give out to do ride alongs with the Police, Fire, Snow Plow and various city workers. Basicly I see and the city sees the DPG as a huge asset to the city and many other bigger and better projects will come out of this. SO from here I just need a confirmation with your name saying that your in and want to take part. Im not sure how many jobs will be available but there should be enough for all of us. So sign away. and start to think about availability in times. if you want to take part I need some sort of commitment that you can and will fill an assignment. No idea on hours yet but that will all be figured out next week.
106 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

in Justin Sinks
106 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

in K. Praslowicz
106 months ago (permalink)

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ectro is a group moderator ectro says:

I would love to be a part of this.

Jake Saari
106 months ago (permalink)

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tina_p0608 says:

Can I just ride around with the fire department? Or even ride in the snow plow trucks. That would be so much fun!
106 months ago (permalink)

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N. Lindstrom Photo is a group administrator N. Lindstrom Photo says:

Pending the time requirements scheduled to be figured next week.

Nate Lindstrom.
106 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Ditto
106 months ago (permalink)

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dv8mtsp says:

I'd like to take an assignment. I need an adventure. I'll take a weekend.
106 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Plenty of vacation days accumulated at work. Defiantly will burn some up for weekday shoots. :D
106 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Sorry to ask this... can if your post does not have it already... Please include your full name and e-mail and phone if your comfortable.. I will get the names off to the person for the next step in this project. Cool thanks.
106 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Info sent via PM.
106 months ago (permalink)

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TwoOneoh! says:

I'm in for sure.

Brandon Irons
106 months ago (permalink)

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nostalgicearth says:

I'm in and we "bumped" so you have my info :)

I dont have your info???? full name, phone and e-mail..
Originally posted 106 months ago. (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 106 months ago.

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

just waiting on them to get me contact names of workers so we can start assigning contacts to photogs.

Nostalgicearth... I dont have your contact info. Full name, phone, e-mail???
106 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Almost there. Here is a letter from Amy... Get ready Photogs

Aaron,

The city attorneys office is almost done with the professional services agreement.
It should be ready for you to sign on Nov 16th.
I am in the process of talking with the Managers and Directors about the "Pride in the Workplace" campaign and the involvement of your club.
I am currently compiling the names/contacts for all the different departments or photo opportunities.

I should be done with this by Nov 16th also.
I will be on vacation next week.
I am looking forward to this project.

Thanks for your willingness to work together.

Amy
106 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Cool
106 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Update... still waiting on someone form the city to say that it's ok that we dont have insurance. I sent a msg off last week. Still waiting.
105 months ago (permalink)

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Darin... says:

I work for the state, but I work at the WorkForce Center alongside several fabulous employees of the City. Heck I could hit one with a nerf basketball from my office if i banked it off the wall. I usually have a camera with me and am known for snapping the occasional photo...
105 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Just got word they agreed to waive the insurance. A contract is being written up and we should get the assignment very soon. Ooooo who will get to ride along in a plow truck??? Awesome!!!!
105 months ago (permalink)

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Darin... says:

now that sounds like a great time! i'd be willing to spend some time hanging out with the lift-bridge operator as well! now that would be wicked cool as well!
105 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Great news!!
105 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

New contract was sent to me today. Will look it over and those still on board can contact me to get a copy to sign. We should be able to start work by next week. Let me know and I will email you a copy to print out ...
104 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

I'd like a copy please
104 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

here here.
104 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Few questions on Article VII Section F:

All photographs, records and other data prepared under this Agreement shall become the property of City upon completion or termination of the services of Guild.

Is this just implying that they get free use of whatever images we turn over, or is it reaching so far that every exposure made for this project either needs to be turned over to them (giving up the negs) or inability to use anything shot for future personal use on my own website, or exhibitions/books which they may be suitable in the future?

I have no problems giving them copies of the images that the city can use indefinitely, but giving up rights to my work is pretty much a deal breaker without serious monetary compensation.
104 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

So you end up like being a city employee whose job it is to take pictures. They own them, so you cannot sell them and (in the case of the OK City bombing image) they would get the $$ from the Pulitzer prize winning photo you took. But, it is my understanding that nobody will stop you from using it in your own portfolios and promotional materials.

That might be a question to pose to the City since I am sure they have no experience in this matter. What are their expectations regarding reproduction/selling rights and if the agreement may need to have that language added -- but that would delay things for at least another month or so, I would imagine.
104 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

I hope you're right HBR. Before seeing that line I hoped this project would be a fun way for Duluth to utilize and showcase its talented artist base. I was ready to start taking off days from work to shoot for it.

With that line in the contract worded as-is, I feel that I'd be little more than camera operator who might not even make minimum wage.
104 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Oh, come now -- you know you aren't going to get minimum wage for this! :)

They want an inexpensive way to showcase their employees and in return, the Guild gets some seed money and we all will get some exposure. It's all good.
104 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Rereading things, I see that Moe posted a while back that the city will pay each photographer $10 per photo used. That is not in the contract. Is it still on the table??

From 3 months ago:

The city is willing to donate $500 to DPG and then for each photo that is chosen and used they will pay the photographer $10 a photo
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
HBRstudios (a group admin) edited this topic 104 months ago.

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Im sure that is the same deal I will check into it. In the meantime please mail signed contracts to me or get them to me somehow.

aaron molina
1129 n. 12th Ave E
Duluth, mn 55805
104 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

So what about my original question? The wording still reads to me that I lose rights on any images I would create for this project.

If it was worded clearly that the photographer retains all copyrights to the images they create and sell, I'd sign and hop on board. But as-is I won't be signing it.
104 months ago (permalink)

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mixmastermike2010 says:

Sounds like a rights grab for the city. I guess if you guys are comfortable working for nothing and giving your righs away then go ahead. Last time I checked, a photo credit doesn't pay the bills. Here is a video on the matter that is worth watching...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
104 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

everyone should watch that video. Everyone - even if not doing this project. And remember, once you sign that contract, you (and the city) are held ONLY to what the contract says, no more, no less.

Everyone deserves compensation, IMHO, esp when you are going to take work off for this.
104 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

As its plainly written above, the Duluth Photographers Guild IS being paid for this work FYI. Many people in this group have given up a hell of a lot of time to share their many years of experience with us "noobs", for free. Our group also does not require dues to be paid. So, giving back to the group (which benefits everyone IN the group) and gaining some experience doing it seems like a very good deal to me.
The only question here is if we keep the rights to our photos to post on our websites/blogs and to sell or whatever. This is a pretty big issue and I think Aaron is looking into it as it is holding a few of us back from committing further to this project

.
mixmastermike2010 : Welcome to the group.
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
JustinSinks (a group admin) edited this topic 104 months ago.

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

1st. I love that Harlon Ellison bit. I kind of curse you for dropping it into this thread before I could use it. ;)

2nd. I've never been into photography for the money. It is fine when I do get paying gigs, but it has never been the driving factor for me. It is the unquenchable urge to to leave a series of my own experiences of the world that will live on long after I die that keeps me shooting day in and day out. In attempts to satisfy those urges, I feel that more intimate or exclusive access to subjects which I'd want to go and shoot anyways is a reasonable trade for use of a few my images within the scope of a project.

The keywords there being my images.

Burning up my vacation days to go exhaust myself while I haul around a 4x5 kit for six hours is something I do anyways for my photography. If I can do the same thing I'd be doing anyways, and have the added bonus of being able to shoot near the police without having to verbally defend myself against police accusations that I'm only out looking for women and children to rape (true story), all the better. I'll trade that for limited use of a few prints at this stage in my career. Full ownership is too much though.
104 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

To Everyone,
I think the DPG is awesome. I have met fantastic photographers and friends here, so I hope this isn't coming off as a "I hate the DPG" statement. It is in fact the exact opposite.
Justin, I think people sharing their experience is awesome.. helping others learn and grow. I think anyone trying to gain experience is awesome. I am only speaking out on YOUR behalf... not in defiance of your intentions.

Giving back to the DPG is awesome.. period. I get that.
What I don't get, however, is that the city of Duluth is paying 500.00 to a GROUP of photographers for a year long project. And that you are OK with no other compensation.
People are taking time off of work, time away from their kids, time away from their LIFE.
Do you know what that equates to per person? About 6 dollars a MONTH. (based on 7 photographers committing. An affordable membership fee, if you asked me..)
Even WITH the 10/per image - it's not the kind of support that a city SHOULD give to a project. It doesn't exactly scream "Duluth supports it's artists" either. If the city doesn't value your work and time... who will?

Anyway. What I am saying is, I think you are worth more than that. I think the DPG is worth more than that.

The rights thing is a no-brainer.
Do what you will, I hold no judgements, really. Not my call.

If the DPG is in need of seed money, there are SOOO many opportunities to do that here. Really. Underselling ourselves is a slippery slope - and setting up further situations in which your time and talent are NOT valued. Think about it.

I can never just keep my mouth shut, really. :|




*dismount*
104 months ago (permalink)

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mixmastermike2010 says:

Thanks for the welcome. I realize that DPG is getting paid and so are some of the members, but the amount they are getting paid so undervalues the work that is being done. How much have you invested in equipment, time, workshops, travel and more to get to the point you have in your photography? Then some people are just willing to give that experience and work away at $10 a pop. This isn't exactly a charity, this is a city with a budget over 70 million dollars. That $500 they offered and $10 per photo is a drop of a drop in a bucket.

Unless photographers stand up and demand true market value for their work, they will continue to be undervalued and expected to give away their work for free or next to nothing.
104 months ago (permalink)

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mixmastermike2010 says:

Oh and I just wanted to say like Sarah, I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I love this group and want it to do well, but at the same time I want the members of this group to be fairly compensated. Keep up the fantastic work everyone!
104 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Keep those mouths rolling. Some good debate keeps this group from being a boring old back patters club.

People are taking time off of work, time away from their kids, time away from their LIFE.

I like to think that work takes time away from my life, and using my earned vacation days for valuable photography time adds a little back to it. Lord help I never have kids to get in way of my photo habit.

While I completely agree with Mike & Sarah, I'm still a whore who can be bought out cheaply.
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
K. Praslowicz (a group admin) edited this topic 104 months ago.

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

"I'm still a whore who can be bought out cheaply. " +1

Not everything in my life is about me getting money. I am more about having fun and doing something I love.
Dont get me wrong, im not arguing with you at all mixmastermike, i see your point, and I have yet to sign this contract until there are some answers to questions. Though,
Sarah, I am arguing with you, cause I know thats what you wanted :D
104 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

Sexist.
104 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

:(
104 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

So are some of you saying that the City should pay the photographers what they are worth for this project and that we should not do it otherwise? Or are you saying that we should make sure to "renegotiate" the terms to maintain all rights?

Yes, we are all worth more than this. Yes we could demand more or the project does not go forward. Yes the city will most likely drop the idea if it has to pay us a "real" wage for our services. Plus if we are going to get real $$ for it, then we all can come up with the $1.5M insurance policy.

So, as Kip strives for, this project IS for images to live longer than we do as part of the city's history. If you don't want to be apart of this under these terms, don't sign it. I personally do not believe that giving up the rights to SELL the images is going to negatively effect my future as a photographer.

Yes, assurance from the powers that be on what their expectations are would be useful, but I don't see it as a huge deal. My guess is that they don't even know what the wording really means as far as rights and useage goes.

Or, as George Clooney's character, Ryan Bingham, says in Up in the Air, "Pictures are for people who have no memory so take some ginkgo biloba and let them burn." I am kidding, of course.
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
HBRstudios (a group admin) edited this topic 104 months ago.

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ectro is a group moderator ectro says:

Yea, I don't think this was ever really about the money.

I haven't been able to view the contract because I don't know how to operate a computer apparently.

I definitely couldn't give up the rights to my photos, and I would expect the DPG to be mentioned in a caption or something equivalent.

I'm wondering what the time investment is. What are they looking for? Documentation of work, or something artistic? I guess I don't know what the intention of the images is. Is it a weekly assignment or more of a one time shoot?
104 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

I don't think scolding others into releasing their images under terms they are not happy with is the way to go. What needs to happen is to discuss a couple of licensing options, then, as a group, agree on one, then have that license form part of the contract with the city. Here are a few options, listed from most restrictive to least restrictive:

cc-by-nc-nd
What it means:
by (attribution): they must attribute you in the way you want
(IE: Brynn - Duluth Photographer's Guild)
nc (non-commercial): they can't use it to make money.
nd (no-derivates): they can't alter your photo

cc-by-nc
What it means:
by (attribution): they must attribute you in the way you want.
nc (non-commercial): they can't use the image to make money.

cc-by
What it means:
by (attribution): they must attribute you in the way you want.

There are other options, but these particular licenses are written in layman's language that is easily understood, and are legally binding.

The thing to remember is that once an image is released under a particular license, that license cannot be revoked. However, it should be noted that a photographer can release their work under multiple licenses that seem to conflict with each other, and that as long as the end-user adheres to the terms of at least one of the licenses they are not violating the photographer's rights. What this means is that verbiage in the contract can, in effect, form a second license, which may conflict with the license you choose for yourself. The contract should say that any language within the contract does not negate the terms of whatever license you have chosen.

Licensing doesn't have to be a big deal, and I am sure there is common ground that will make the city and everyone in the DPG happy.

If you have licensing questions, I will be happy to help. I know more about this than I would like to admit. :P

~Brynn

[edited for grammar]
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
aback account edited this topic 104 months ago.

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Brynn, who's scolding anyone into doing this?
104 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

Justin, it was the "if you don't like it as it is, don't do it" I took issue with, which, by the way, you did not say. If a person were interested in continuing to position this as a DPG project, perhaps finding a solution that will satisfy the interested DPG members, rather than foster an atmosphere of "if you don't like it, take your toys and go home", would be more productive. *shrug*

Separate from that, and for what it is worth, I think it is unreasonable to ask a photographer to release their images without restriction (especially if the contract says "all images taken for the project"). At minimum, attribution should be a requirement, and perhaps a non-commercial restriction should be included. If the city wants to use a photo for commercial purposes (monetary gain), the photographer could, if they chose to, release the photo under a second license and negotiate a fee for that one photo (if they wanted compensation). Although, from what I see in this forum, the money isn't really the issue, it is retaining control of the images. Am I wrong?

If so, I shall take my toys (and licensing knowledge) and go home. :P haha

Cheers peeps.

ps: I'm not, nor have I ever been, interested in participating in taking photos for this project, so what y'all decide won't affect me...just thought I'd tell you what I know.
Originally posted 104 months ago. (permalink)
aback account edited this topic 104 months ago.

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Thanks Brynn for the info!
104 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Ok lets hash this out at the next DPG meeting. Its taken long enough to get to this point we might as well get this right. Bring you concerns to the meeting .. if you cant make it then we will read them from this thread.
104 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Sounds perfect Aaron, thank you!
104 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Bump
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

I will hopefully have answers and contracts for you all at tonight's meeting.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

some clarification....

yes each photo that will be used by the city will also pay $10 per photo

Still waiting on ownership. I think they will not have a problem with you still owning the photo and rights to it but I think they will ask not to print or sell those photos and they might be asking not to blog them either. I asked if they could still own the rights to promote and show they did this work... I will let you know what they say....
103 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Well, if we can't print or blog them, how would we premote or show the photos?? I understand not selling the photos but jeeze
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

if you had a portfolio or images on your computer people could ask to see them. I know it's not ideal for people who want to showcase everything. I really am trying to work this out for everyone because I think it's a good thing for the DPG and a good way to get your name and the DPG out there. I understand that we all want and have specific needs.

At this point who is still wanting to be involved? Because if it's only a few then I think we need to pass on this.. Too much red tape?
103 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Thank you for going through all of this Aaron. I'm sure it's a huge PIA to be the guy in the middle.
I just want the "blog" clarified. Flickr could be considered a blog to some. I'm worried it will be like the makeover project where we posted our photos to Flickr for the first few days before we were told we could be sued for it.
I'm still in, just want exact list of dos and donts.
103 months ago (permalink)

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mixmastermike2010 says:

Best of luck in clarifying everything, but asking not to print, sell or display them is not even close to keeping ownership. What exactly do you own if you can't do that? What you should do is negotiate a term where they have extended rights for a certain period of time then after X months, you retain full rights to do with them whatever you please.

I think that way they get what they want out of the deal, the DPG gets its exposure and press and funding and the photographers ultimately retain the ability to move those prints wherever they please should the chance arise.

Good luck!
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

whoever mixmaster is?

Any way the city got back to me. They are asking that we write out what we want as far as ownership. Again we are taking photos of employees doing their job. This is an assignment for the city for promotional use. Is someone willing to take a stab at this?
Originally posted 103 months ago. (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 103 months ago.

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

well, if you thought I was a bad photographer, then yould think im an even worse writer...
So the question is, what DO we want to do with the photos?
Id like to be able to:
Post to my flickr
Put them in a portfolio or some sort of promotion for myself
103 months ago (permalink)

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-Snapshot- says:

For the small compensation that the city is offering, the photographers should be able to retain complete commercial ownership of their work, and post on flicker, their own web sites sell to the National Enquire or any thing else they wish.

If the city wants to have complete ownership of the photo’s they should hire by the hour a photographer to take them just like a business such as Coke or Walmart would do.

Seams like everyone is trying to get photography done for nothing nowadays.

MY 2-CENTS
103 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

What -Snapshot- said.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

I think I'm going to drop this project. I just know that they will not be OK with what snapshot wants and kip. They probably would go for a blog thing and portfolio but to print and sell and whatever... I'm sure they have to protect and have some responsibility to the city employees.

Sorry this didn't work out.
103 months ago (permalink)

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whitejade85 says:

All I can say is way to fail the group, moe. All people wanted was to have thier 'president' negotiate for their rights as artists to thier work. I am positive that you would not agree to a contract that only paid $10 per photo and did not allow you to retain any rights to your work. Your story about selling a photo for $1000 only confirms that assumption in my mind. I find it insulting that you can go before the group that you take so much credit for and claim that you cannot ask for thier rights as artists to their induvidual work. And when they insist on it, you give up on them.
103 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Just don't abandon the entire project it because it because I'm making a stink about the terms. I have my terms and choose my clients based off them. If there are people who are cool with what was presented, get on it!

I just know I won't have much pride in my own workplace if I'm getting paid minimum wage or less to just operate a camera.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Wow.. I have spent much time being the in between person on this. I have asked for what you all want and the contract they asked for is not what is working for the group. I did ask for full rights but because of liability they cant make that happen. SO I asked for ownership and being able to have private use for portfolio but they hesitate on the blogging issue. Because this is not a big money gig and because we really don't have much to work with I just cant justify spending more time and effort on this. I really wish you didn't take it so personal like I am failing you and that I am insulting you. Really very hash on your part to call me out like that.

Kip I'm not abandoning it because of you... I totally understand what it is that you want and require. I respect that. I just know the size of the job will require at least 10 photographers and I don't think we will get that kind of support for the terms the city is asking for.

Im not sure what else I can do to make this contract fit everyone,, that is the only reason I see this not working out. I know there are a few willing to do this no matter what but a few will not be enough to cover this job. ***** I will ask again. one more time for full rights... ***** Please don't fire shots at me like I am failing you or the DPG. I am doing my best to make this work for everyone. I wish you could see that. If it is lack of anything on my part I apologize. I can only spend so much time between my day to day to make everything fit. I will let you know what the city says.
Originally posted 103 months ago. (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 103 months ago.

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Thanks for the effort you are putting into this Moe. I really do like knowing there is some one out there actually looking for interesting gigs on our behalf.

To say "Way to fail" I think is a bit much. Negotiations go both ways, and sometimes the needs of a client and the person/group/company they are trying to hire just don't match up. Just because the foot is in the door doesn't mean either party has to bend over to complete the deal. Walking away is valid outcome. I do it all the time with people who ask me to shoot their weddings under terms that don't fit my style, or when I get asked to do freelance web work where the scope is WAY larger then what they want to pay for it.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Thanks Kip. I really am trying to get the full meal deal. You can only ask for so much... I was hoping they could meet us half way but it doesn't look like that will be enough. I did send another last attempt to get full rights and to put them at ease about what that means. We will see what they say.
103 months ago (permalink)

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jus728 says:

Hey Moe, I would just like to say i have been following this for a bit, and i would be interested in shooting if you did need more people. I would also like to thank you for putting so much time in, and it would be ridiculous for any one to be mad at you or call you out if this does not work out. I mean come on you are dealing with the city after all, and doing so all on your own time. thanks again.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

Thanks.

I just got an e-mail from Amy at the city. she is asking the City Attorney again for full rights, but she feels like they will pass and that the deal will be broken. She will let me know.
103 months ago (permalink)

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Darin... says:

Yeah, thanks for giving this a whirl, Aaron. We're all learning as we go, and nothing ventured... nothing gained. I'm still available for shots around City Hall, since I work across the avenue from there and work directly with City employees. All I have is a camera, basic skills, limited lenses and no off-camera flashes or other fancy gear...
103 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

I think all you need is a camera Darin. No need to complicate thing with extra crap ;)
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

The reason they want ownership in case anyone is not understanding it... They want to be in control of how these images are displayed to the public. To protect them and their employees. By letting us maintain full rights to blog or use we could then take a photo that may paint or show the city or employee in a bad light and that is a risk that they don't want to take. I don't see any middle ground here on the rights of the photos.
103 months ago (permalink)

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whitejade85 says:

This project has been up for four months, and at any point in time moe could have asked for someone in the group to assist him and I am confident someone would have stepped up to do that.
That said, moe could have simply said ' if you want to do this folks, this is what they require, take it or leave it. " Instead of ' I quit altogether" Thats great that moe has been working on this, but there have been other people who have done a lot for the group. People who are always ready to pass on knowldge and manage money and book models and set up shoots.
I dont see them getting on the forum and complaining about how much of thier time it is taking up. If you didnt really want to take the time to organize, and its really not that worth it to you, you should have handed it off to someone else from the start.
103 months ago (permalink)

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K. Praslowicz is a group administrator K. Praslowicz says:

Fair enough for their needs.

However, $50(assuming 10 shooters) & $10/per images doesn't buy the severance of my copyrights. So I can't accept the terms.
103 months ago (permalink)

aback account [deleted] says:

The city wants a professional commitment with a not-at-all professional pricetag.

I don't understand how someone else in the group stepping up to the plate would have changed that.

Aaron, you're in a crappy place today. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That sucks. Sorry.

Maybe if the deal falls through, the people still interested can contact the city and work out their own personal agreement - to their own terms -
and all will be happypuppykittyrainbowland.
Certainly, nothing is keeping anyone from doing that.
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

The reason for not asking anyone else to step in was because the city took forever to even draft the 1st contract which has changed twice and could be three times. It only got to the rock in a hard place recently. Its not that I needed any help.. it is just a matter of two parties not being able to work out a contract that works for both. I did organize this. I wanted to, it is not working out! Come on give me a break here. I'm sorry you don't like how this is turning out but I truly believe we would be in this same spot no matter who took this on or how they ran it.
Originally posted 103 months ago. (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 103 months ago.

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

I think I am ready to chime in -- especially now that things have calmed down some.

1) I think ripping on Moe is unfair for this project. The city came to him with an idea and their legal team came up with a contract. We looked over the contract and I saw nothing too out of the ordinary under the circumstances -- I was a little put back by the city not allowing posting the images online, but this is not out of the question and they have their reasons. I understand that under "normal" circumstances, the artists should be getting a LOT more $$ for these terms, but GO's are not exactly flexible as decisions need to go through a lot of hoops. It really is a "sign it or not" situation and this group is about giving people experiences they normally would not be able to get so I was all on board with the idea. Plus, the more you do, the more contacts you make which DO lead to paying gigs. By the way, I am still in the project, though I have not signed on the dotted line, yet.

So, are we going to try and unify our stance and see if the city is willing to budge with the idea that we will most likely not have this opportunity if we go that route, or are we opening it up and saying, still, that if anyone is interested in being a part of it, they can do so under these terms?

With that said,

2) It sounds like there are people who want this group to be more of a "factor" in the photography scene where we can, as an organized group, set a certain standard for using our services. I am all for the idea, and have been for a long time, but this has hit resistance among members. An agreement must be decided that whenever the group is called upon for photographic services, a set of conditions must apply (rights, pay, etc.) We, as photographers, will always be taking jobs outside the group so a set of by-laws for these "internal" jobs must be in place and a group of officers must be set to see that the by-laws are being followed. Once this is done, we have a group that can proceed in a meaningful way.

Is this going to happen? That is up to us.
103 months ago (permalink)

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duluthiscool is a group administrator duluthiscool says:

Every now and again you are provided an opportunity to participate in an event where the collective end-product of the group and for the group is greater than could ever be accomplished by the one.

Each has the opportunity to participate or not, based upon their own perspective.

From my perspective, this is a far more significant project for our City, our Community... than the Extreme Maker project... Of course, it is not fair to compare a profit motivated project compared to a civic pride project...
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

SO the City is looking at assigning this out where the more confidential photographs would be given to a city employee and the ones that they feel are not so sensitive to the DPG. In that we would be able to keep rights and post them. Still waiting for the city attorney to say yes or no to this.

Whos still in?
103 months ago (permalink)

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JustinSinks is a group administrator JustinSinks says:

Still in! Thanks again for pushing it Aaron!
103 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

In.
103 months ago (permalink)

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mixmastermike2010 says:

Have you considered negotiating a contract with rights that change over time. For example, the city gets control of how the images are displayed for the first six months and then after that the photographer retains full rights. The amount of time could be negotiatble--six months was just a suggestion.

How about asking the city to provide documents listing your services as a tax write-off of some sort. So you get $10 in cash, but you get the value of your work as a tax write-off. So let's say you spend 8 hours with some city worker and you'd normally charge $500 for your day rate. Have them provide a document stating you donated $490 worth of work and it could be used as a tax write-off. This has been done in all types of fields and could be done here and possibly be a middle ground for those of you who would accept it.
103 months ago (permalink)

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HBRstudios is a group administrator HBRstudios says:

Ohhh --- good thinking on the tax write off idea!
103 months ago (permalink)

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MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina is a group administrator MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina says:

new contract about rights changed to -

E. Ownership of Data
All photographs, records and other data prepared under this Agreement shall be deemed to be the property of both the Guild and City and may be used by each party for their respective purposes.

the guild being you as an individual ..

so who is still in. Post e-mail I will e-mail you the new contract. sign and get to me asap so we can get going.
Originally posted 103 months ago. (permalink)
MOEVIEW is Aaron Molina edited this topic 103 months ago.

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