Chronocrator [deleted] 12:49pm, 12 April 2012
There was a long discussion about this in another post. But it is better, now that the substance for the test is arrived, to go with another starting discussion. All users of alternative photographic chemistry like coffee or Vitamine C or Acetaminophen and other easy to get substances may be interested if this test shows that salt can be used as fixer and how.

Sodium Sulphide
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I went this morning to the post and received the package containing this 1kg of sodium sulphide for the test. I think, by the formula, that it is hydrated and I don't know the quantities to use. If somebody can help, ok! If not I will search for information in the internet.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
First step is to fix a piece of film.
Film: Fomapan 100 ISO
Fixer 150g salt in 1/2 liter water
Temperature: 40ºC
Clearing time: 1 hour
Total fixing time: 2 hours.

The test has already passed the clearing time, now, I will wait one more hour to wash with water.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
At the sulphide bottle it is written Na2S.9H2O
To have 7,5g Na2S, how much grams I need from this?
1 mole Na2S is 78g and 1 mole Na2S.9H2O is 240g and this means if I want 7,5 g Na2S, I will need 23 g from this. Am I wright?
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
This stinky thing is hard to dissolve but I have time...
Chronocrator [deleted] Posted 5 years ago. Edited by Chronocrator (member) 5 years ago
The fixing time is now almost finished. 10 minutes more. Oh, it stinks here...
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Fixing time over, piece of film will be in just water for half an hour and then dried with a fan. The stock solution of sodium suphide is ready too, 100ml with 23 g of Na2S.9H2O.
I read somewhere that this solution is to be used in dilution 1+9 water. Wright?
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Half an hour washing time is now over.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Now I will have dinner and after dinner I make the test with sulphide. Meanwhile the test piece of film will be dry for sure.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
If somebody is following, shall I use the solution pure or diluted 1+9? Or both?
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
OK, I decided to use it pure, a drop at one side during 5 minutes.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Result:

NO STAIN AT ALL!!!

Photos will follow in brief!.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
After fixing and before the test
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7071709369/]
During the 5 minutes test
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7071709351/]
After the test
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7071709347/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Thank you to all of the people that followed this issue from the beginning, supporters and skeptics.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I am ready to repeat the test with a not well fixed piece of film to prove that the solution works.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Test with a virgin piece of film made with a solution 1+9 of sulphide in water. Only a black spot remains. I think it is silver sulphide.
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7072983099/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
In a few minutes the same test with a just cleared negative, not well fixed.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Half immersed stripe in salt at 40ºC during one hour only. Concentrated solution of sulphide leaved a brown stain. Not well fixed.

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/6926987362/]
Chronocrator [deleted] Posted 5 years ago. Edited by Chronocrator (member) 5 years ago
The next test will be made later, I have to leave for work. But it consists in a stripe signed that will be divided in two parts, one will be fixed and the other not and then compare.

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7073080313/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/7073091093/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
The second part of the stripe with my name has been «fixed» with salt. The first part with my name will be only «cleared». Same test conditions, 40ºC and 2 hours fixing time, one hour clear time, film Fomapan 100 ISO.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
The two parts of the Fomapan 100 ISO film piece after being submitted to a concentrated salt solution during one hour (left) and 2 hours (right) at 40 ºC
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/6928505054/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
In some minutes I will be showing this two pieces after being submitted to the sulphide test. Shall I use the same solution of sulphide? Or for better evidence of fixing the strong solution on the right piece and the weak 1+9 solution in the left?
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I will wait for an answer during 30 minutes, before performing the test.
stragatto 5 years ago
I think that you should use the same concentrated solution that gave a brown stain in the test of half-fixed strip for both pieces.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
OK! But I will wait some more time for reactions. If none, I will be following your suggestion, stragatto. Thanks for answering.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I insist in answers, I sent hfandrep a personal message asking his opinion, he was the more skeptic in this tread. So, I am ready to wait some more time for an opinion, not that afterwords somebody says this is not a proof of the result. I am ready to admit failures if it happens. I am doing honest work, I am a teacher of electricity and I also make experiments in my field and when it doesn't work I search for the causes.
Since we can't replicate your results with any kind of salt her, even with the same salt as you use, there has to be another reason why you get other results as we do.

What about the water? I read the you bought "distilled" water, but is it really distilled? Or is it just made electrically inactive?

I can ship a bottle of clean tap water from my tap to you.
I can't get a clear film with any kind of salt with that water.
This water doesn't contain any chemicals except a minute amount of bound chlorine. It is about 1 ppm.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I already offered to send you both my salt, if you wish my water also. I accept receiving your pure water with 1 ppm chlorine for tests with my salt.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
But hfandrep wanted that I make this test and I am doing it now, only now because the sulphide came yesterday.
DCI Photography 5 years ago
I would like to see the tests continue with different film emulsions using distilled water only and obviously the same type of salt. A chart could be made showing if there is any difference between film ISO's and emulsions for fixing times.
You have put a lot of effort into this project Henrique and I commend you on your methodical approach in achieving results.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
And about my tap water, I have a piece of film in only water since a week and it is still not fixed. My tap water doesn't fix, at least alone not, only with salt and very concentrated, I measure 1,2 density with a battery densitometer that may be not so well calibrated. I am using Fomapan film 100 ISO until now, I could observe a very strong dependence on temperature and concentration of salt. It depends so much that I could reduce from 24 to just 2 hours the fixing time for this film, this water, this salt, etc.. stragatto could also fix a piece of film with table salt in 16 hours. I have no interest to lie about this.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
DCI Photography, yes, there is a lot of work to be done if this is worth. And I would appreciate any collaboration in the tests. I have already noticed some differences, once I used Ilford FP4 and it took longer for the same conditions. And so on. A chart for differente films, concentrations, temperatures, is a lot of work. And expensive too, B&W are now more expensive than color films.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
During the test with the same strong solution containing 23 g of Na2S.9H2O in 100ml solution.
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/6928804630/]
stragatto Posted 5 years ago. Edited by stragatto (member) 5 years ago
But I could replicate the result with my tap water and my salt. I just failed when I was not having a really saturated solution and without color film, that in subsequent test I found harder to clear. When I repeated the test I dissolved as much salt I could in boiling water,after cooling down the excess salt recrystallized and so I was sure to have saturated solution at maximum possible density. With that solution the Polypan F film was cleared (at 17 deg C only) in less than 16 hours (I can't tell the exact time because during the night I was sleeping :) About my salt, what I can tell is that it is marine salt, so it reasonably could contain some traces of MgCl, NaBr, NaI. About my water,it is potable water of medium-high hardness. Sure that there was not any error (e.g. not enough concentrated salt solution, like it happened me in the first test) in the failed replication ? Or it is really a matter of salt (e.g, rock salt vs marine salt ?)
The test on Polypan F was repeated twice at a distance of about one week with the same successful result.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Thank you for the statement, stragatto.
And now the result I obtained in this test,
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/horabsurda/6928829562/]
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
My first result took 24 hours to clear, not to fix. But then I tried to reduce this time with more concentration and temperature. And this suspected distilled water works much better.
stragatto Posted 5 years ago. Edited by stragatto (member) 5 years ago
As a matter of fact, being the same result successfully replicated in two different places with locally available materials, I think that no more the reasons of the success, but those of the failure (as I did after my first test) should be investigated :)
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
Well observed! ;-)
Chronocrator [deleted] Posted 5 years ago. Edited by Chronocrator (member) 5 years ago
Yes, this may give a theoretical explanation for the fact that this sea salt does the job and other not. OK, I will send the salt and the sulphide, I kept the package where the sulphide came that looks like a newspaper package and I will send the 1/2 kg salt and 10 g sulphide.
Thank you for the honest answer, whatever the results, no emotional resentments.
Henrique

Note 1: this was a response to hfandrep trying to explain the fixing properties of salt with the presence of sodium ferrocianide, a substance allowed in UE until 20mg/kg as additive. But marine salt has NO ADDITIVES.

I also asked him for the adress where to send the salt and sulphide but I have got no answer.

Note 2: hfandrep excluded me from his contacts.
Chronocrator [deleted] Posted 5 years ago. Edited by Chronocrator (member) 5 years ago
I think that hfandrep deleted his comment about the explanation trough ferrocianide and opened another discussion only about that. It is ok, the answer above was to his theory but the salt I am using has no ferrocianide. It is marine salt, so it has the components of sea water, minus sulphate witch precipitates first and the water continues to evaporate in another basin.
Chronocrator [deleted] Posted 5 years ago. Edited by Chronocrator (member) 5 years ago
Components of sea water in %:

Chloride (Cl-) 55.03
Sodium (Na+) 30.59
Sulfate (SO42-) 7.68
Magnesium (Mg2+) 3.68
Calcium (Ca2+) 1.18
Potassium (K+) 1.11
Bicarbonate (HCO3-) 0.41
Bromide (Br-) 0.19
Borate (BO33-) 0.08
Strontium (Sr2+) 0.04
Miscellaneous constituents 0.01

From here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_salt
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
We may and should look for an explanation why sea salt works as a fixer. But we may not found the reason. One of the Becquerels discovered how to develop the daguerreotypes without mercury vapours, but he couldn't explain his method and nobody until today could explain. But it works very well and is not poisonous.
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I must make here a statement: I am not chemical skilled, I am just experimenting as photographer that makes his own baths. I am not using Sodium Chloride, so I can't say that Sodium Chloride is a fixer. What I say ius that the salt from sea, for a reason that I don't know to explain, is fixing my Fomapan b&W 100 ISO films. Nothing more. But, I have to be honest, I don't think it is Sodium Chloride that fixes, it is something else contained in very small quantity that exausts in the first fixing. Every experiments I made with used solution failed. So, the challenge goes on. What is it? Some of the above mentioned or other thing in the Miscellaneous constituents of sea salt?
Chronocrator [deleted] 5 years ago
I only want to remind you that salt passed the test! It is not a course on how to design a fixer, it is just the (re)discover of an alternative to the fixer that has been treated as a myth until now. It is indeed true, sea salt can fix your films in the right concentration and temperature. 4 people in different countries already certified this result.
aeloureirof 5 years ago
Hi there everyone. Leaving the same msg I left on the salt fixer thread:

It works.

Since we moved from this thread I thought I could leave my testimonial about the "Sea Salt Fixer Project".

Sorry it took me so long. I started this a bit over a month ago and have been keeping contact with Cronocrator since, testing the data.
I have been able to fixe three rolls of fil so far and the first, although the developing process was flawed, the fixer worked great and has now been sitting in a bright, sunny, 30ºC room in Rio de Janeiro for 3 weeks.... NO change at all form the first moment I took it out of the tank.

The reason it took me this long to comment is because I was writing a blog describing in detail the process needed to fix with Sea Salt. I'm a complete newbie blogger and the need for a blog came with Caffenol - since I got most of my help to start from other people's blogs, I wanted to go hand in hand and share my experiments!
But bloggin - I discovered - is not easy!!

So if you still have doubts about this "Project" and how to get your Sea Salt Fixer running, please visit my post at:

caffenol-carioca.blogspot.com.br/

Some pics included.

cheers!
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