Redboy | streetandstage.com PRO 10:12pm, 29 November 2011
I should start this with saying that I do not (yet) own a Fuji X10, but I have been rather obsessed with it since it's introduction and I plan on purchasing one as an upgrade to my LX5 for daily carry - even IF the below is true.

This thread over at dpreview is reporting that perfectly round Dots / Blobs seem to occur with the combination of low ISO and bright lights? I've definitely seen examples of this in the pool but wondering if it is a limited problem or a larger / straight across the board one. To those of you who *are* experiencing the issue - are you on the latest firmware? (1.02)

This definitely isn't a deal breaker for me as the plusses of the x10 seem to outweigh the few number of negatives - *every* camera has it's quirks.
Bill - PA 7 years ago
I've been following the many message threads over on DPREVIEW as well. I don't typically do the type of shooting as those that are experiencing the problems do. It is obviously a problem for many, however, I don't think it is an issue for the majority of people. I've taken 1,000 pictures over the past 3 weeks, and I've only encountered the 'blobs' in one or two pics, and those were easily removed in post processing. The X10 is a supplement to my DSLR system, and I really like the X10 and liking it the more I use it. I am not downplaying the issue as the examples I've seen posted are definitely bad, however, for the majority of people shooting general pictures, it really isn't a problem. Take a look at the photo galleries here and see if you think it is a wide spread issue.
Regards, Bill
nakeddork 7 years ago
Lawlz...

Never noticed it.

People's expectations are waaaay to high for this camera.

The camera's great, people are just finding things to bitch about.

I'm gonna photoshop white dot on my pictures now just for kicks.
lyle_genyk PRO 7 years ago
redboy,

I would take anything seen on a dp forum with a grain of salt. Most seems to do nothing but look for flaws in equipment to make up for their own crappy images.
Oh i do Lyle. VERY much so. They tend to, erm, go over the deep end on things over at DPreview. Their preview piece, for example, was total biased crap.

So yeah, salt *definitely* taken. Was just wondering if the members of this group (whose pics i've been admiring on a daily basis) have seen the problem occur often / semi-often / or it's not really an issue.

I suppose my main concern for these "blobs" would be that I shoot a lot of concert photography and lot of low light / night stuff. The x10 would be for those rare nights where I'm not working the pit with a dSLR. Would just hate it if every stage light / street light, etc was a perfectly round blob as even the LX5 can do better than that.

Again, by no means a deal breaker, just keeping my expectations in check before picking one up.

Really appreciate everyones thoughts / experiences on this!
nakeddork 7 years ago
Didn't know about this alleged problem till you posted this, and I've been pretty much using the camera daily.

I'll try to produce it, but frankly it hasn't been an issue.

Total exaggeration...
serious spoon [deleted] 7 years ago
After reading the doomsday posts on DP Review Fujitalk forum, I was able to pretty easily reproduce the orbs. The best way is to fire a pic with flash on a reflective surface. The specular highlights that are created are artificial looking (a perfect circle or oval with a black outline) and pretty glaring. However, I can't imagine this won't be an issue that can be resolved with a firmware update...
Otherwise, I have had a ball with the X10, and it really has revitalized my passion for photography!
You can check out some concert photography I did with the X10 and I think it handled itself admirably :)
admin
Celso Kuwajima PRO Posted 7 years ago. Edited by Celso Kuwajima (admin) 7 years ago
Redboy, I've never noticed the problem. I reviewed my photos, and a couple of them, "appear" to have the white blob. See:
.. by Celso Kuwajima

But actually - and do recall clearly - that part of the picture was way overexposed and this result was expected.
And saw no white dots in any of my pictures.
nakeddork 7 years ago
Most of it looks like specular reflection from the sun...it seems like a made up problem.

I'll take a look for myself though.
admin
Celso Kuwajima PRO 7 years ago
nakeddork, I do agree with you.
I overexposed and was expecting, if not all, the greater part of all that brightness.
Redboy | streetandstage.com PRO Posted 7 years ago. Edited by Redboy | streetandstage.com (member) 7 years ago
@boomerang - i was really admiring your concert shots early on because you were one of the first to post high ISO stuff. perhaps there aren't many "blob" lights in those shots because the higher you go up in ISO the less this supposedly happens?

@nakeddork you can see a good example of what they're talking about in your (lovely) pic of the gas station. each one of the lights are close to perfect orbs w/out much flare at all. apparently this effect will happen even greater if you shoot @ lower ISOs?

{edited to add this link} jim radcliff posted some different examples on his site under "specular highlights"

again, none of these things are deal breakers by *any* means as long as there is a way to work around it. in fact, i'm really close to just ordering it (amazon has one day delivery in NYC - ack! :)) and seeing if this phenomena affects my particular usage at all.

thank you again to all for checking this out / trying to replicate - it's very much appreciated!
.Summit. 7 years ago
I have noticed this in some of my images too. Seems to look the worst at low iso's. Almost seems to go away at higher iso's. I don't have any of my images handy right now, but I didn't have to go far to find the issue on images posted in this group (this is not my image):

NYC from Dumbo by davidwattsjr
nakeddork 7 years ago
Yeah...I see it now.

Eh, I'm not gonna ocd about it. Frankly, it's not really obvious and something I didn't even notice. It just looks like the camera can't handle blowout in small clusters. It may just be a the result of the EXR sensor.

If you're hesitant I suggest waiting it out till next firmware release or the next batch of cameras are made, to see if the problem is corrected.

Early adopters always take the risk of getting a buggy product...not like I think this is a huge thing.

Its pretty minor, frankly it's not a huge difference than what the specularity would look like anyway. It's just that their is abrupt transition in the blowout that makes it look like a circle.

In the end this is still a compact camera. People expectations are too high. It is an excellent camera for what it is...just don't think it's gonna replace pro cameras and you'll love it.
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
I've just gone through the hundreds of test shots I've taken over the last week, making sure to especially look closely at those including specular highlights, and I can't find a single example that displays this phenomenon.

So far, there doesn't seem to be much consistency in how it's been occurring. The DPReview site has some examples that I looked at and yes, it's definitely visible, but when I checked through the stream of the photographer to see other examples, it was absent from other scenes with similar lighting.

Like these.
www.flickr.com/photos/minami/sets/72157627886371769/

What I've seen so far are extreme situations where the highlight is totally burned out. I wonder if the dynamic range correction is kicking in and trying to suppress the acute change in tone?

Someone needs to do a controlled test to pinpoint exactly where, when and how this is occurring.

I have firmware version 1.02. What does everyone else have?
@viewfinder - really good to hear that you can't find any examples in your own photos.

there's an amazing example of the dot/blob in the above stream you pointed out :

www.flickr.com/photos/minami/6301640383/in/set-7215762788...

look at the car windshield dead center in the frame @ full size. one big round white dot.

SO odd. I wonder if shooting with, say, spot metering could help solve at least *some* of these examples...
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
I wonder if this is a problem with a certain batch. Early ones maybe.

Again, I have firmware version 1.02. What does everyone else have? I don't believe it can be checked in-camera or through Silkypix or the converter. I found it in the very last line of the EXIF in Photoshop.
Vendobiont Posted 7 years ago. Edited by Vendobiont (member) 7 years ago
Several other white dots in the particular image points out above - the headlight of the car, the glass globes on the pedestals, blowout at the extreme right on approximately the same level as the "big white dot" . Only software could do something so weird. Shouldn't generalize from this one image - in this image the round #FFFFFFs seem to occur above a certain size. There are a number of smaller reflection blowouts that have not become round blobs. Thanks a lot for the links to this interesting phenomena guys.
absent name [deleted] 7 years ago
My first picture ever with this camera, it was a reflector on the floor, used to illuminate a very small garden in Paris. It did not suffer from the white blobs, in fact I was nicely surprised on the way it handled the overflow of light.

@Celso_Kuwajima I concur, your picture doesn't seem to suffer from the blurbs, it's just over exposed (as expected) on the sunny bits.
Redboy | streetandstage.com PRO Posted 7 years ago. Edited by Redboy | streetandstage.com (member) 7 years ago
Apparently you can check your camera's firmware version with the following (found via dpreview via fuji upgrade site)

"Firmware version checking procedure:

Insert a blank formatted media in the camera. Turn on your "Camera" while holding down the [DISP/BACK] button. The number will displayed "CURRENT" showing the camera's current firmware version.

After checking the firmware version, press the [MENU/OK] button and then turn off your camera."

Would be curious to hear which version people have as well.
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
I've just done an update of my review, with new info on "The Blob" and filter/lenscap options. Updates are shown in red text:

www.tomfreda.com/fuji_x10_review.html
op204 PRO 7 years ago
I don't know, but I just got mine today and after a couple of shots I noticed a yellow streak that runs from the top of the image to the bottom on the left side. I contacted Fuji and after explaining it to them they said my unit was defective and to return it to the store and get another one. Unfortunately, I got it on the internet from a store in Jersey! Now I have to go through the pain of waiting to call them tomorrow to get a return number of some sort and then ship it back to them through UPS and then waiting for it to arrive, again! Hopefully, they won't charge me for shipping this time. Shipping was free the first time around!

I thought when you pay top dollar for something they do it right the first time! Silly me.


See the yellow streak on the left of the pics? No bueno Fuji!





Micro43 7 years ago
I can't say I've noticed it negatively in any real shots yet. (Firmware 1.02). This was shot pretty much straight into the sun, for example:

Backlit flowers by Micro43


However, I just did a quick shot and made sure one of the room lights was in the photo - a hard edged 'blob' definitely was produced by the light and wrapped around the end of a wall. Unatural looking, for sure. Seems kind of the like the Olympus red dot issue though - easy to make it happen if you try, but almost doesn't happen unless you try. Sadly I'll be looking for it now :( So confirmed that I've seen it with firmware 1.02.
poised sleet [deleted] Posted 7 years ago. Edited by poised sleet (member) 7 years ago
PI

There you go. Minor blobs. However, comments on this photo where I have it posted on pbase and have used this and the colour version of it as a sample of the blob effect have garnered nothing but good comments and those are from people who are, in the main, excellent photographers (in other words, I wonder how much of an issue this is for people not sensitized to it like we have become? Not that it isn't an issue, but ... )

I suggest the following work around for situations like the one I posted here (obviously this won't work for every case) - step one step to the right, leave the bulbs out of the picture and keep their illumination. Blobs go away. I am at the point where I consider it a weakness in an otherwise fine camera that needs to be worked around. That said, fix it please fuji - either with firmware if it is a software issue, or a recall if it isn't. I am used to crazy work arounds though - I also use an Olympus E-3 for indoor sports and in low light (heh) so work arounds are the norm for me...

I have noticed that every time I get the blobs I am using an exr mode though (so far) but not every exr mode shot has blobs. I will test with some raws tonight with the dr at 100% if I get a chance. Anyone else notice this?
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
"I wonder how much of an issue this is for people not sensitized to it like we have become? "

Here's something to consider:

In the last few days, I've shown pics of the worst "orb" examples at 100% to 2 members of my family, 1 client and 6 friends who viewed them online remotely. The friends are advanced photographers, the client was a photo editor! None, I repeat, none, noticed the orbs until I pointed them out, and even then, it was only my wife who thought they looked a bit "funny," (which is highly suspect because she likes the crappy 3mp pictures taken on her cell phone!)

Sure, it's an issue and sure it's something that Fuji should be investigating. But unless you do all your photography at night, and your job depended on it, and you knew nothing about how to fix it in Photoshop - on a scale of 1 to 10 in importance, this rates a 1.
nakeddork Posted 7 years ago. Edited by nakeddork (member) 7 years ago
I also looked over my photos for my worst orb pictures.

ORBS!!!

The orb problem is worse than I thought!

DSCF1212-Edit

Oh the horror!!!
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
They look perfectly fine to me. :) The one on the bottom should be hanging in the Guggenheim!
Supposedly Fuji Japan is going to make an official statement on the orbs within "a few days." We'll see if that's true. Luckily for me B&H haven't had the x10 in stock so i haven't just walked in and bought one...yet. :)
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
It's legit. The guy is with Fujifilm Denmark so he should know. This could be interesting.
Marvin NotD Martian 7 years ago
so here's an update www.dpreview.com/news/2011/12/07/fujifilmplansfirmware

the easiest way to reproduce the white dot is taking a picture in front of a mirror with flash firing.
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
That explains why I've not been seeing it so obviously as others. I'm in 6MP all the time.
.Summit. 7 years ago
lol, the easiest way to make it happen is to not even try. Take a photo with this camera anywhere near a reflective suface with bright lighting or anywhere with bright bulbs/sunlight and you'll get it.

X10 (12 of 13) by .Summit.
Marvin NotD Martian 7 years ago
@ i'm also in 6mp mode all the time after reading this article kimletkeman.blogspot.com/2009/10/fuji-f70exr-how-to-shoot.... hehe i'm quite new to the exr sensor tech. any other good reads regarding exr?
op204 PRO 7 years ago
Shanti Fotos 7 years ago
Hi very easy to get orbs,esp. with flash...have tested all settings and a little less obvious with EXR DR 400 but still there,so any firmware will just be a band aid I think,I was planning to use it partially for some musical instruments,and for high contrast B&W ,but have to reconsider now...pity as I really like it for many other subjects...
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO Posted 7 years ago. Edited by view[ ¤ ]finder (admin) 7 years ago
@Shanti Fotos .... What's to reconsider? Use M mode and they're very small. If you need perfection (trust me, no one but you will notice it), then use this quick Photoshop fix:

www.tomfreda.com/x10_photoshop_fix.html

By the way, a flash was used in the examples.
Shanti Fotos 7 years ago
Hi I try to post some examples,M mode was used flash on all but xmas lights,have example without flash as well same if light hits the right way...PS fix would take forever to clone out these dots...
can't get exif data in??


secure.flickr.com/photos/shantilfe/sets/72157628322155517/
Redboy | streetandstage.com PRO Posted 7 years ago. Edited by Redboy | streetandstage.com (member) 7 years ago
^ @ shanti - those pix / blobs - ouch!

the good news is that this sort of thing has happened before (and been fixed with firmware) check out an incredibly similar problem that happened with the Sigma SD9 (scroll down to the night exposures section)

every camera has it's quirks. i just noticed that B&H has them back in stock...I might just have to run over there tomorrow and pick one up to see if the blobs really present themselves with my shooting style...hmmm!
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
@Shanti Fotos .... Tip: never shoot highly reflective subjects like glass, bottles, jewelry - and saxophones - with direct light. Either put a diffuser between the light source and the subject or bounce light off smooth white surfaces like walls or reflector cards. Better still, make yourself a light tent out of bed sheets and bounce off the inside - off-camera.

I say this because you're going to be equally disappointed in your results after the disc problem is fixed.
Shanti Fotos 7 years ago
@view finder..of course I know that,this was to show how extreme they can be and if I could find out what exactly causes them..I have seen that the angle of light has an influence on them..at certain angles with flash/flute few if any orbs,at others alot as in pics.. have done same shots with an old Canon G2 and blown highlights were much better/more organic. But some of the samples I've seen of water/sun etc... also have the orbs,which can be a bummer....
see new pic of flute w/no flash..so it can be good of course..
poised sleet [deleted] Posted 7 years ago. Edited by poised sleet (member) 7 years ago
re edit for a forum post

Ran this through viewfinder's process only I used the gimp to do it. Yes, you can still see it and I likely should muck about with it more, but it is not as bad as it was and this is the first time I have tried to edit anything like this. Practice will make perfect but let me tell you this - even for someone with no real photoshop chops, who had to figure out how to fix this by guess work, this took me about 3 minutes. Yes, the orbs are an issue, but a bit of free software and a couple of minutes of mucking about with it can mitigate the problem enough to make me say "what problem?"
Well, the problem would be in situations like the image of the car that I posted above. You can't recover / fix massive amounts of information if it's not there in the first place. For simple stuff though, yeah, no biggie. just use the content aware fill tool in CS5.
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
@Redboy ... "You can't recover / fix massive amounts of information if it's not there in the first place. "

www.flickr.com/photos/minami/6301640383/in/set-7215762788...

Oh yes you can! Try new and improved Orb-be-gone! Every Fuji X10 user needs it.

Orb-be-gone, that's the way,
Sends those awful
orbs away!

Sung to the tune of the Roto-Rooter song

($19.99 per can. I accept Visa, Mastercard and Paypal)

Try new and improved Orb-be-gone!
nakeddork 7 years ago
That means actually learning something...
@viewfinder: yes in that pic it works, nice one. t'was an easy example to point out earlier and a fairly easy one to fix since it has nice clean lines. we all know that that won't always be the case.

@nakeddork: dial it back a notch. you don't know me.
admin
view[ ¤ ]finder PRO 7 years ago
That took me about 15 minutes using Photoshop's clone stamp and spot healing brush tools.
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