The Need for Answers on Flickr

Thought-provoking. A lot of complex relationships presented in a graphical format. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but every time I look at it again, I see some new element of symbolism.

The picture on the right is simpler, with colors that are more symbols of colors (blue ocean, red sunset,yellow sun--with a smile, no less!), while the colors on the right are more realistic (and less clearcut). Different religionists can and do choose different places to "get off" the secular path. But everyone has to start there, because we are material beings and must start by observing the material world with our material senses. The theistic paths all lead to a dead end, because once you've decided that God is the cause, you can't investigate any further. Even the final step on the secular side has an open end: "yet." The secular path is zig-zaggy, more complicated, but once you get off, it's a bold, straight arrow to the final conclusion. (I suspect that my biases are obvious in this analysis. I'd love to read how someone who takes a different path would interpret this image!)

Any plans for similar work in the future? Here's a suggestion: "Bacteria have flagella with which to propel themselves because . . ." ;)
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

Flatfield - thanks for your analysis! I too would like to hear alternative interpretations.
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

Dancing Fish says:

Interesting idea. Good to get the grey matter working...
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

Fred [feukiou] [deleted] says:

!! interesting!!
123group
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

LightStamp says:

Actually to me, the picture is more realistic on the left. A line need not be drawn...both can and do coexist just fine.....;-)
Who's drawing all the lines anyway?! Stop it!
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

BloOwITt says:

Excellent idea and well done :).
Kinda looks like the cover for the book "how to be an atheist" :P
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

sgs_1019 says:

This is beautiful and wonderful! Thank you for posting it!
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

jimmah_v says:

unique and creative -- I like it a lot
_
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

avocat says:

maybe G-d created the left side of the equation (my left, as i look at our pic) because he loves us and the earth, period. maybe you can combine the two "because" into one that way... personally, i believe that chemistry is G-d's will, stem cell research is His will, astrology, surgery (from brain to toe) is all His will. it's us who's making it more complicated than i think it really is. (spoken like a true reform J, right? :) *blush*
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

musashi_hai says:

Even a Jesuit would have to pause
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

DavidHerd says:

Yes, this is very interesting work. I often have a debate like this internally so I find this very interesting. Great work.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

oybay © says:

Interesting and well worth reading.

(3:1 Group)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Sparkle~and~Fade says:

This is both visually interesting and thought provoking. Great work, I like the whole idea and the pictures! Well done! :)
3:1 group
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

goateamrob says:

Left hand side: what happens
Right hand side: why it happens :)

Smiley face - God loves us
Simplicity of right hand side - simplicity of the stereotype of thinking that people who believe in God are simple.

Beautiful sunsets - awesome.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

kevingc says:

Ooo do this one:

The internet was born because...

(I had "invented" instead of born, but the latter is more thought provoking.)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Ronsen says:

:-)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Mark Ridlen says:

That didn't stop Newton from finding answers.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

dublinclontarf says:

Wait a minute, what if god created the laws of physics?
Wouldn't that be weird.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Duc-Nguyen says:

1) God create everything ! Right ?
2) Can God create an unliftable stone?
3) If yes, can God lifts that stone? :-)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

antimattar says:

"In order to make an apple pie from scratch, first you must create the univers." ~Carl Sagan
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

J. Random says:

The ability to say "we don't know" is what seperates the intelligent from the sheep.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

jimdesu says:

There are two really interesting aspects to this picture (which I've linked into from my blog). The first, like Flatfield says is the lovely simplifications like the defined circular border on the sun, the blue color of water (which is colorless), etc., detailing the simplification of reality in order to conform to "what we all know to be true". The second, and imho important aspect is that there's no inherent dismissal of religion in the left-hand column. I don't know your intent, but not using religion to provide easy answers doesn't gainsay religion either. Only a zealot equates the atheist and the agnostic. :)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

WilWheaton says:

This is really lovely . . . but you're missing a big grey area right down the middle.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Leviathor says:

@Dublin: What created god?
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

electrojosh says:

My question in response to such philosophical issues is always the same:

What would a pug say?
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

goateamrob says:

@Duc 2005

It's a nonsense question :) Or I think so anyway.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

jasohill says:

But where is the green sun with the Flying Spaghetti monster to the left? With the statment, "His noodly appendage brought forth a bright sun for us to worship his tentacles." No discussion of this nature is complete without his noodles. :)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

ashish_Jatt says:

First of all these thoughts making someone to some and start reading it is itself thaught chain reaction.

If these things so called Logical deduction or God could have effect upon our survival then so be it.
Life is short enough to waste and long enough to enjoy.
Live your life as you want to may be or may be not be are two sides of the same coin which ever side we wanna choose
Everybody may live as they wanna keep guessing, keep prides and predujices, keep getting success and failure
Time is not going to stop for anybody I mean anybody do what you wanna to do and think what you can think

Bless You all

Jatt
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

Call me Ishmael. says:

I like it.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

TaranRampersad says:

Maybe our focus on 'How' is the problem.

Maybe it's supposed to all be about the underlying 'Why'. :-)
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

jorgempf says:

our answers are always over believes even when we try to get clouser to the truth
Posted 38 months ago. ( permalink )

cranberries says:

One is the how, one is the why; both are essentially reductionist and tautological, but together, or, I should say, contrapuntally, they enhance and illuminate each other. Nicely done.
Posted 38 months ago. ( permalink )

* Armando [deleted] says:

I love this. It reminded me of the book I'm currently reading: The Demon-Haunted World. Science as a candle in the dark by Carl Sagan.
Posted 37 months ago. ( permalink )

1flickr says:

Could it be they are both true...
Posted 37 months ago. ( permalink )

Dreamer.~ says:

This is really great, you know... I love this piece~
Posted 36 months ago. ( permalink )

stickmus says:

Reminds me of this page ;)
Posted 35 months ago. ( permalink )

rachels_squiggles says:

this is fabulous!

Right now I am too lazy to read all the comments.

But, again, this is fabulous!
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

oneirology says:

The photographs and reasons are great. God does communicate with symbolism instead of words at times.
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

dasherz07 says:

great picture man, it's sad how ignorant people can get sometimes. if there is creation, then there is a CREATOR!
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

-----
Hi,

There is 2 perspectives,

BECAUSE

ALLAH (This is GOD's NAME) wanted to TEST HUMAN same time:

Who will see truth ?

( Truth is in right side of this picture )

AND

Who will deny Allah ?

(But there should be some pretexts for deny. Because of this, Allah created some pretexts which is in LEFT SİDE of this picture. )

AND

dasherz07 said above the critical point: if there are creatures, then there is a CREATOR! (Thanks dasherz07)

This picture shows also this: Allah really loves maths, physics, chemistry , ... and I love too as a good friend of Allah :))))))))))
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

dasherz07 says:

what religion are you?
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

--------
Hi !

Duc-Nguyen asked above:

1) God create everything ! Right ?
2) Can God create an unliftable stone?
3) If yes, can God lifts that stone?

ANSWER :Yes

Question : HOW ?

Answer:

There is famous and great story among Muslims.

Some peoples were arguing and they decided to ask the question which is argued a people who will pass their street firstly .

After an hour a Muslim entered the street. They run to him and asked the question : Can GOD pass a camel from a hole of sewing needle ?

Muslim said: Yes, of course !

They said: HOW ????!!!!!

Muslim said: With two method. First, "GOD makes small the camel as small as needle hole. Second method: GOD makes big the neddle hole as big as camel :))))))))))

NOTE: A person should accept this: There are some questions which can be ansered by others or only GOD ! The "unsolving state" don't affect presence of GOD ! Because Human Brain can't solve EVERYTHİNG ! Brain can't solve smallest problems sometimes.

İf Duc-Nguyen say: BRAIN can solve everything, Please give me the answer of Epimenides paradox." are All Cretans liars ?" :))))))))))))))))))
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

---
Hi dasherz07 !

I am a Muslim .
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

Hi Zachstern,

Faith is not a FILLING MATERIAL !

Electron is turning around nucleus of atom . Did you ever wonder "How many tour is there in a second ?” Electron turn around nucleus 6,5 quadrillions in a SECOND !!!! What does it mean 6,5 quadrillions ? 6,5 quadrillions are ten times more than all hair strands of living humans !!!

Who is turning electrons with this speed ? You ???!!!

There are millions of scientists who is working on scientific LAWs and their relations. There are millions of scientific LAW in physics, chemistry, biology, ...etc. Are all of LAWs chance meeting ?

Whereas if we put 6 bricks one on the top of the other, after that we invite 1000 people from street and if we ask them: this bricks put itself one on the top of the other BY CHANCE . Is it possible ?

How many of them will say “Yes, it is possible to meet this bricks one on the top of the other BY CHANCE”

I think NONE OF THEM !!!

If there is no chance for 6 bricks, what about over 100 milion times million CELLS of a human BODY ? What about 10 exponent 80 atoms of Universe ? Is there a chance ?
Absolutely NO !!!! Mathematically NO !!!!

There is only INTELLIGENT DESIGN of ALLAH (This is name of GOD )

In a body of ONE PERSON, about

100 000 000 000 000 CELLS

300 000 KILOMETERS of blood vessel,

300 000 KILOMETERS of nerve

200 000 000 000 KİLOMETERS of DNA

This is the GREAT DESIGN OF ALLAH !

ALLAHUEKBER ( This mean “ALLAH is GREATEST ) !!!

And Allah will collect all peoples in an arena and will ask about everything of their lifes in “judgment day”. For example : What about the MOHAMMED who was my last and best prophet ? Did you hear MOHAMMED ? Did you hear ISLAM the real and only unspoiled religion ? MOHAMMED said all peoples:

Save your hands, feet, eyes, ears, tongue and other organs from SINS !

Don’t lie ! Behave to your parents in a nice way ! Don’t swindle peoples ! Care your relatives ! LOVE all peoples, animals even plants ! Don’t break hearts ! Don’t hurt anybody even an ant ! Don’t make extramarital sex ! Shed your sweat for earning your bread ! Don’t slander anybody ! Don’t gossip about people ! Don’t drink alcoholic beverage ! Don’t gamble ! Be in the service of your family, your country, your nation, even humanity ! Trust Allah ! Repent for your sins and apologize to Allah ! Allah is most merciful ! Keep one's word ! Lend person who wants ! Learn all of useful and beautiful things “from born to die” ! Don’t swear ! Leave all of bad things ! Spend effort to leave your bad behaviors and habits ! Visit your relatives and always remember your friends! Weight goods correctly ! Don’t cheat your customers ! Be patient all bad states ! Want help from Allah ! .....

(Note: Only a prophet can say to people this all of correct and beatiful words)

MOHAMMED said also :

People need POWER to succeed in this all of beautiful things . Because of this, people should prayer 5 times in a day to GATHER the POWER ! People should fast 1 month in a year ! People should talk with Allah via repeating some words which are be liked and loved by ALLAH ! People always remember and prayer ALLAH !

MOHAMMED also said: There is no GOD, only ALLAH ! There is only one GOD and the GOD’s name is ALLAH. Allah has propets ! Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Adam, ....All of them are prophets of Allah ! Jesus is only prophet and my brother, but, NOT A GOD ! There is only one unspoiled religion : ISLAM ! Every person will die and will be interrogated by ALLAH in judgment day !

COMMENTS:

-Faith is NOT a filling material.

-There is only one GOD and GOD’s name is ALLAH

-There is only one unspoiled religion : ISLAM

-MOHAMMED is last and best prophet .

- QURAN is last , best and only one unspoiled book of ALLAH

-Please THINK about what I said ABOVE carrefully !

-And PROTECT your Faith in every manner: There is only ONE GOD and there are a lot of person who is talking GOD now (At least 7000 people) !

-Allah is near than carotid artery to you ! Don’t mislead yourself !

Best wishes
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

dasherz07 says:

surah chapter 5: states that you can trust the words of the gospel, and the gospel states that Jesus is God, and why dont you guys believe that?
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

lonely walnut tree - Hi, salaam, and thanks for your comment. I sense that your beliefs are passionate and deeply held, which I respect. Also, I am not concerned (given some assumptions below) regarding differences in WHAT people believe, but I am very interested in WHY people believe what they do.

I assume that your religious beliefs feel corrrect to you, that they are consistent with other beliefs that you hold, that when you learned ideas forming the basis of these beliefs, the ideas clicked naturally into place with other ideas in your mind (and perhaps gave you a sense of peace and a feeling of completeness and correctness). Further, I assume that your beliefs satisfy a need in your mind for answers to questions that other answers do not satisfy. Am I correct?

Thus, I think that we each create a model in our mind (an outmodel) of the world around us, and we continuously add or delete ideas from that model, to improve its ability to explain what we don't understand or cannot predict about the world around us. Further, as time goes by and our models become more complex, we become more and more resistant to allowing significant changes in our models. I think this is HOW we all develop our beliefs, so that resulting differences in WHAT we believe must therefore be attributed to differences in our capabilities and differing inputs to our models from our respective environments and peers.

As long as we acknowledge that other people (who develop their beliefs the same WAY that we do) may passionately reach different conclusions, and as long as we do not try to force our beliefs on others, I think that the exploration of our differences can be very rewarding.

Thanks again for your comment.
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

-------

Hi zachstern,

Thanks your answer and your great interests. Allah loves very much thinking peoples.

You said: I think that we each create a model in our mind (an outmodel) of the world around us

And you said also: I am very interested in WHY people believe what they do.

Okey. In fact, this is very simple question. I will try answer the question (TRY, Because my English is not very well :((( )

Firstly, you should understand that there is only one REAL MODEL which belongs to GOD. This model is named TRUTH by us already. If GOD created universe as a ornament or a toy, we could produce a lot of models, even 1000 models per day. But, GOD says: “I didn’t create universe and human as a toy, fun or ornament” in Quran.

“Why are we living ?” and “what should we do in life ?” This questions only can be answered by GOD, because Universe was created by GOD (not by human), and electrons are turning by GOD (not by human) ! If we try to answer this questions by ourself, this will be as comic as Teacher is tested by students !

Then,

why have we many many models ? Why are not our model same with GOD’s model ? Why isn’t there only ONE MODEL ?

Because GOD created human with “liberated will power”, and HUMAN’s WISHES are not same GOD WHISHES !!!!! Because of this, Human changes GOD’s MODEL continuously and produces many many model from it.

We belive our models and we apply our models to our lifes, BECAUSE our model is in GREAT HARMONY with our wishes :))))))

For example, why doesn’t a Christian be a Muslim ? Because if he/she does

He/she will LEAVE

drinking alcoholic beverage, making extramarital sex, gambling, breaking hearts, hurting others, lying, conceit, avarice,...etc. He/she must pray 5 times in a day also ... And he/she must do what Allah says.

Because of this, a Christian is continuing to go after his irrational faiths ! For example: Can a Man be a God ? Can a Man ( which eats and goes WC) be a God ? IRRATIONAL !

All in all, we must control our feelings, we can’t give permition our emotions for driving our MINDS and we should accept only GOD’s MODEL ( which is named as ISLAM).

Caliph Omar (GOD’s friend) said: Before Islam, we produced GODs made HALVAH ( a kind of sweet) and we ate the HALVAH GODs when we were hungry :))))))))

COMMENT: Don’t produce your model (This is same with producing HALVAH GOD’S) !
Accept and apply ONLY GOD’S MODEL to your life. Be a Muslim in a short time .

One question has remained: How can we understand that Islam is GOD’s MODEL ? If you leave eating halvah gods, I will give you the answer.

Best Wishes
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

Hi lonely walnut tree. Well, I see that your view of the WAY people come to believe what they do is significantly different than my view.

From my perspective, my view of the WAY people end up with their beliefs appears to more closely match the world and therefore appears to be more useful than your view. My view advances a premise that you and I are fundamentally the same in the WAY we end up with our beliefs. And, since I believe all men to have the same general capabilities, my view seems to appropriately base the cause for different beliefs on different environments. Also, my view is hopeful that we can live together in peace.

However, what is your view of the WAY we end up with our beliefs? If you don't believe we end up with our beliefs based on our environments, then how do you explain why there is so great a correlation between the religions of children and the religions of their parents? Would you say that the Muslims have been chosen by God to have their particular beliefs? How can I rationally respond to such a trump card? Must I controvert you in kind and say "NO! God chose my people to have their particular beliefs"? Is there room in your view for a rational explanation for the WAY in which we end up with our beliefs?

And, if we cannot agree on the WAY that people end up with their beliefs, I guess we also cannot agree on WHY people believe what they do. Again, my view explains the WHY based on environmental factors. On the other hand, from my perspective, your view of WHY people believe what they do appears to rely upon an ethnocentric premise (i.e., that your view is the only truth) and does not assume that all men have the same general capabilities. For example, you appear to believe that Christians choose Christianity over Islam because as Christians, they are too weak to be willing to give up their various vices [I wonder if you realize how offensive such a premise appears to me, even though I am not a Christian].

Thus, your view appears to be that Christian men believe what they do because they prefer immorality over truth, and Moslem men are more willing to make sacrifices to reach God/truth. Have I correctly characterized your view?

I suppose that your view of WHY people believe what they do, depends upon WHAT they believe. From my perspective, that makes your view of WHY we do things less useful and less accurate than my view. Your view appears to be that men who believe WHAT you believe, end up with that belief because of WHAT they believe. (that's hard to read!). Or put differently, your view appears to be that Muslims believe in Muslim views because those views are superior/truth, and belief in the superior/truth gives Muslims strength to believe in the superior/truth. While Christians choose inferior views because their inferior views make them incapable of choosing superior Muslim views. Have I correctly stated your view?

But, doesn't this sound like circular reasoning to you?

Again, I have no comment on the substance of WHAT you believe, except to the extent that you believe in a different model of WHY we believe things than I do. We can happily coexist if we simply disagree on WHAT. But how can we coexist if we disagree on WHY we believe what we do? Your view appears to assume that those who do not agree with WHAT you believe are incapable of correctly obtaining beliefs.

Is that WHAT you believe?
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

----
Hi zachstern,

I read your message and saw main point. I think, your main problem is that:

You THİNK,

-GOD is a faith,
-GOD is a human imaginative creation
-GOD is a dream
-GOD is useful concept produced by human

But, all of those are FALSE !!!

There is a GOD who sees, hears, knows everytihg. For example GOD is reading now what we write. GOD is a individual (distinct entity) like you. I don't see you , I don't hear you, but I know you are a person.

GOD created human and wanted create an exam for human.

Main principles of the exam:

1...Human can’t see GOD
2...Human can’t hear GOD
3...Human can’t touch GOD
4...Human can have only proofs of presence of GOD
5. Human will have a BRAIN and a HEART to evaluate the proofs

Can we say to GOD: “Dear GOD, we don’t like this exam. Please cancel it !”

No, absolutely no ! We can’t say this sentence to GOD, because GOD knows What the best is.

But Zachstream ! You want to see GOD who created you. You want to hear GOD. You want to talk with GOD. And you want to touch GOD. But those are imposible ACCORDİNG TO “Exam Main Principles” . And you are trying to touch GOD via using your mind ! But GOD closed the WAY also !

How ?

Via attaching mind to KNOWLEDGE and making Knowledge endless !
Because of this, YOU CAN’T FIND ANY ABSOLUTE TRUTH VIA USING YOUR MIND !
( For example: Mind said that human can’t go to Moon 5 centuries ago. Why ? Because mind has attached to knowledge and knowledge was insufficient 5 centuries ago. Afterwards knowledge increased and Mind decided that human could go to Moon ! Why did changed their opinion ? Because mind attached to knowledge unbreakable chains by GOD)

Finally, we must ACCEPT the principles of GOD’s exam and we should use only proofs of presence of GOD until when we die (exam finishing point).

All in all,

-Do you want to see your GOD ?
-Do you want to hear your GOD ?
-Do you want to talk with your GOD ?

All of those are possible even WHILE YOU ARE ALIVE !!!
But,
You should be a Muslim (Because only Islam is GOD’s MODEL )
You should effort to became a very GOOD PERSON.

If you can do those , you can talk with GOD “even while you are alive”.

Over 7000 persons talk with GOD in the world at this time ! They aren’t prophets !
They are called “GOD’s Friend” by Islam.

So, there are no induvidual models for us. There is only GOD’s MODEL. There are some peoples who accepts God’s model and win the exam. There are also some peoples who don’t accept God’s Model, don’t eveluate the proofs firmly, listen their emotions, don’t listen their minds, don’t trust GOD, don’t belive GOD loves them, lost the exam :(((

This is just REALITY ( Not a belief, not a faith, not a dream, not a useful concept, not a imaginative creation )

COMMENT: Please think about what Lonely Walnut Tree says. LWT don’t try to win any discussion. LWT want only to tell some important things. If you learn more knowledge about the exam, you wil see that there is no immorality or inferior view for cristians. There is only a different exam technique . God can’t test every person SAME WAY . ALLAH apply different exam techniques( what is the best for tested person) Because ALLAH LOVES US .

Best whishes
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

Hi lonely walnut tree - Salaam and thank you for your passionate reply.

You believe differently than I do and I am happy that my pictures could provoke our discussion. However, I don't think I have learned anything from you about the topic I wish to discuss, which is WHY we believe what we do.

Can you tell me WHY you believe what you do? If you say you believe it because it is God's truth or because it is right, then I will not be able to understand you. I want to know WHY you think it is God's truth and WHY you think it is right. I have explained to you WHY I believe what I believe - can you do the same? What are YOUR reasons? Why does LWT believe this?
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

lonely walnut tree [deleted] says:

Hi zachstern,

I have just understood your question :))))).

Dear zachstern, I said: We have an exam and have only proofs according to principles of this exam.

If an Individual knows EVERYTHING we are called HIM as a GOD ! Isn’t right ?

We can’t say to our GOD: “Dear my GOD , if you teach me all of answers, and, if you teach me EVERYTHING

Then, I will answer your exam’s questions.
Then, I will do what you say
Then, I will respect your opinions and rules
Then, I will accept your Model (The Islam) and be a Muslim.

Why can’t we say to our GOD the sentences ?

Because, Human was created most supeior being of universe by GOD.
But,
HUMAN was not created AS A SECOND GOD !!!!

Human knows only what GOD taught him. If human is SECOND GOD, only in this state, we can KNOW EVERYTING !

Because of this, WE can’t use UNANSWERED QUESTIONS as a EXCUSE(pretext)
TO OPPPOSE our GOD ! We can’t do that !

If we will can use the unanswered questions as a excuse, there are millions of questions like this type. Some of them:

-GOD can do what he wants, Whereas why tests HE human ?
-GOD can do what he wants, Whereas why give HE permission to live THEIR enemies ?
-How can GOD create a being from NONEXISTENCE ?
-Why gave GOD to human “liberated will power” ?
-How can GOD create a being(like human) who has liberated will power (This is your question :))) ) ?
-How can GOD control the increadible braincracker 10 exponent 70 cubic kilometres of volume in a second ?(Not: This figur shows approximately maximum volume of universe)

You see that unanswered questions are endless. Because of this (I repeat) ,

****We can’t use this unanswered questions as a EXCUSE to oppose our merciful GOD.***

Our GOD loves us vey very much.

MOHAMMED the prophet said: GOD created love which is given to a baby by their mother as an example. GOD loves “world most BAD human” 70 times more than the mother who loves their baby increadible manner.

We must TRUST our merciful and love-full GOD,

***Like we trust our mothers....
***Like we trust medicine producers....
(We don’t know anything about the medicine which is swallowed by us. We trust producer, we swallow while the medicine can kill us :)))) )
***Like we trust automobile designers ...
(We don’t know how automatic transmissions work, there can be a design mistake which can kill us. But, we start engine and drive our cars :))) )
***Like we trust our wife/husband
( A wife can add some poison to our meals :))) )

IF WE CAN’T TRUST OUR GOD for 70 YEARS, HOW CAN WE LIVE WITH HIM ENDLESS TIME ?

(ALLAH said:” Human is immortal and everlasting”. Also ALLAH will give all of answers which we want when the exam finished, dear zachstern.)

I know my GOD very well. HE is increadible friend. HE is increadible helper. He is increadible understanding. HE is increadible generous. HE makes what I want. Sometimes, HE don’t make what I wish. But, afterwards, HE explain why HE didn’t accept my prayer and I understand that this state is more useful for me. How can I tell my FRIEND ( especially with this bad English : ))) ) ? HE is most beautiful. HE is the BEST. My FRIEND is my HERO. I can only say that: “I advice everybody that they should became friend of GOD (and their name is ALLAH) . They can never find a friend like my GOD.

Now, lastly, I am sending a message to my GOD from here: “Hi, my FRIEND ! I love YOU very much. I love YOUR Model. I am very proud to became YOUR friend and to became a Muslim. I worked to became YOUR good friend over 15 years. But YOUR friendship has more more more value than this effort.”

Best wishes
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

hi lonely walnut tree - welcome back! I am enjoying our discussion very much!
However, I think that you still do not understand my question. You have said many things about WHAT you believe, which is interesting, but not the subject of my question. [I want to know something personal about lonely walnut tree - I have explained this personal thing about myself, above; however, let me know if you do not want to tell me this personal thing.] Perhaps if I phrase the question more succinctly, you will answer...

Question: How did lonely walnut tree end up with the beliefs he has expressed in this discussion?

I think your answer must be closest to one of A-E below. Please tell me which answer is the closest, and why.

A) EXCLUSIVE DIVINE INTERVENTION:
GOD did something directly to the mind of LWT so that LWT has his present beliefs in their entirety. None of those beliefs were learned from the world at all, and the beliefs were given, in their entirety, directly into the consciousness of LWT. Or, similarly, when LWT needs to speak, GOD intervenes directly and tells LWT what to say.

B) DIVINE INTERVENTION PLUS ENVIRONMENTAL CONFIRMATION
GOD did something directly to LWT and to other things observable by LWT. LWT believes what was done to him to be the act of GOD, because no other answer seems right to LWT. Further, LWT has discussed GOD with his peers, and has read the Koran, and what they say seems to coincide with LWT's direct experience of GOD. Therefore, LWT's beliefs are a combination of GOD's direct action upon LWT, with many additional "explanations" having been provided by LWT's peers and his observations of how the world is.

C) EXCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENTAL
GOD did something to make the world the way it is. LWT has observed the world, has discussed his observations of the world with his peers, and has read the Koran. Based on his observations, discussions, and independent thinking, LWT has made conclusions about the world; those conclusions form his beliefs.

D) NON-COMMUNICATIVE
LWT has beliefs, but it is impossible for LWT to explain WHY he has those beliefs to anyone who does not believe WHAT he believes.

E) NONE OF THE ABOVE
None of A-D are even close to being correct.

I look forward to your reply...
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

dong9kim says:

try to look at the sun on the right side carefully, moving your head up and down. You can see a smiley face : ]
Posted 27 months ago. ( permalink )

TheRiverDark says:

A nice example of the unnecessary aspects of believing in God. It's such a shame these people can't simply enjoy the world for what it is, instead of having to apply imaginary reasons for everything. The rambles of Lonely Walnut Tree (above) sum up the position of many people of religious faith: I believe it, it seems to me to be true, therefore it must be true. I mean, they expect that to be taken seriously?

You should submit this to the RDFRS group, it seems appropriate.
Posted 26 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

dougbut - Thanks for your kind words and tip regarding RDFRS - submission made!
Posted 26 months ago. ( permalink )

Napalm filled tires says:

i tried reading as many of the posts here as i could, but didn't see anybody point this out: the image on the right is backwards compared to the image on the left. (i could say mirrored, but i prefer to say backwards in this case)

has anybody else noticed this?

also, can Lonely Nut be marked as troll? does flickr have such ability?
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

rickirene says:

Very interesting back and forth on the beliefs or reasons for. Shame LWT has not yet responded. Maybe he believes that he should not do or is it that he was told not to? Whichever it was I was told by dong9kim above, to look for the smiley face and low and behold one appeared! I believe, I BELIEVE !! :-) Now, why or what I believe in, I'm not really sure but that's another story.

Thanks, zackstern for some great photos and comments.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

rickirene - Thanks! :)
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )

imago says:

LonelyWalnutTree sent threatening emails to me and another flickrer, and I am presuming that this is why his account was deleted by admins. The image to which he objected this time was mildly offensive to Islam, I received warnings because I affirmed my atheism, suggested that it was reasonable to ask that a person of faith would respect my lack of it, and (perhaps unwisely stated that I thought people who challenged such positions were delusional and paranoid.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

alas, fear and sadness all around...
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )

Aqua Form says:

wow u would be burned alive in the red south ....creationists would go crazy ...wringing hands and such...Frankly, I don't understand why atheists are not supposed to say anything about other religions but we can't say anything about ourselves without being beaten with a stick!!!???!!!
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )

nyc_rodent says:

Feynman may not have felt frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, I however ....don't either. I have so much to thank Richard P Feynman and Richard Dawkins for and I feel so lucky to have opened eye's to study mysterious world around me with.
Posted 21 months ago. ( permalink )

cornfednebraskaneer says:

John 1:5
"The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

John 1:50
"Jesus answered and said unto him, "Because I said unto thee, `I saw thee under the fig tree,' believest thou? Thou shalt see greater things than these."
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Jenna Carver  says:

This is fantastic.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

trailingbegonia says:

Ha ha...Funny how there isn't one question to which "god" isn't the answer to...~sigh~
Posted 17 months ago. ( permalink )

alex22146 says:

faith... :D
Posted 16 months ago. ( permalink )

Denis Collette...!!! says:

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Your Preferred Picture, and we'd love to have your photo added to the group.

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called " A Vision" /Please tag your photo "A Vision", and we'd love to have your photo added to the group.

Congratulations! Félicitation! Felicitazione! Felicidades! Felicitats! Glückwunsch! تهنئة 恭喜 Felicitação! Čestitke! Blahopřání! Gratulation! Felicitatie! Õnnitlus! Onnittelu! Συγχαρητήρια! כל הכבוד! Gratulálok! مبارکPowinszowanie! Felicitação! Честитке! Lyckönskningar! Поздравляю! Tebrikler! Поздравления! تبریک おめでとう Til lukku or til hamingju! GEFELICITEERD! Parabéns!

Art Attack...!!!
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Posted 16 months ago. ( permalink )

Kokoro Shouyou says:

Your analysis is well thought, Flatfield, I agree. And I like your photo, zachstern.
Posted 16 months ago. ( permalink )

{ زۈجـۈنيـﮱ ڵآنحـږف . . \\ ~ says:

Nice ,,,
Posted 14 months ago. ( permalink )

choda42 says:

Intelligence on the left, fiction on the right.

Which god are we talking about? Apollo or the Titan Helios? Both are fine examples of sun gods. Horus was the Egyptian god of light. Ra, Annu, etc.
Wait! I've got it! God, our holy and great Flying Spaghetti Monster!
Posted 14 months ago. ( permalink )

godserv says:

All things were made by Him (Jesus). The study of everything in nature leads back to God, that is why he allows us to be able to study his universe (if the earth was in a different position in the universe, we would not be able to study the other stars and planets) and the earth. God does not want dummies for followers or closed minded people. He tells us to renew our mind when we become christians and the only set of people that he explicitly call fools, is the set that says in their heart, that there is no God. Why is someone a fool when they say there is no God? It's because everything in nature speaks about Him in their own language and we make Him a liar when we claim that he does not exist. Who would worship a God that lies. Nature is one of the reasons we must accept the fact that there is a God (the king of all kings, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the I am, Jesus, the God who will return, the one who was not created, the one that loves us and sacrificed his son, Jesus to die for our sins) especially if we study it. View: What We Believe.

This Beautiful Photo is invited to INSPIKS Pool

Posted 14 months ago. ( permalink )

Napalm filled tires says:

"All things were made by Him (Jesus). "

prove it. saying it over and over again doesn't magically make it true.

just makes you look out of touch with reality. good job.
Posted 14 months ago. ( permalink )

lavidaverde says:

I have read all of the comments and I have two comments of my own:

As to why we believe...

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in their hearts, yet so that man can't find out the work that God has done from the beginning even to the end

When we have the family, the car, the house, the money, the friends, etc etc, we will still be looking for something. God created us to seek him, some sooner than others.

and I appreciate your picture but as to trying to rationalize...

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are saved it is the power of God

We won't ever be able to figure it out, in fact, if I may borrow from pop culture, meaning the current Indiana Jones film, I think of the scene with Kate Blanchett gaining all the knowledge and she couldn't take it. What we know is a tiny fraction of all of the knowledge. I imagine God looking down on this conversation and perhaps he giggles a bit or just shakes his head. What makes a cell work, what makes sure that all ten million something reactions are firing correctly so that my heart beats for 85 years straight? What is at the end of the universe? I do appreciate these types of conversations but at some point we just have to accept that we don't know right now. We may have a chance to know one day, if we have the faith to get there.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

zachstern says:

nograssbeneathmyfeet - thank you for voicing your comments...
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Kinnari Kreme says:

yes, god loves us soooo much he created oil so that fundaMENTALists can justify their wars so they can drive SUVs and buy more oil so they can pollute the world and buy more oil so they can have suburban homes and 2.5 children and buy more oil so we can have global warming.

that's just how very much god loves us.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

Kinnari Kreme: Had you thought that actually God created us with a choice? And that by our freewill, we have chosen to do those things. This is not God's fault, and it is not by our bad actions, that his love is exhibited, it is by the simple fact that we have the choice to make mistakes, and that he will love and forgive us anyway, that his love is displayed. Don't take out your hatred for mankind's issues, on your creator. Would you rather have been created with no choice or freewill, an in-autonomous machine?

So yes, that is how much God loves us!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

godserv says:

Just stopped by again to give another Christain POV:

Consider this verse from the Bible:
Psalms 19:1-6 KJV
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

The Psalmist, David would not have written this if he did not study the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment (science). Having faith in God, does not mean you are closed minded. In fact the Bible begs for us to renew our mind because, from birth we have been shaped in the ways of iniquity and we were born in sin. Once again - if we look at how unique the earth is and how it's position in the solar system allows us to study it, that's one clue for the very existence of God. Most of the constilations that we know of, were studied and plotted during biblical times. Now, don't feel bad if you don't believe that, but be concerned. If I left my christian faith, there is no other faith under this heaven that I would turn to - Why? because none, other believe in the God of all gods. I want God, I don't want to be a god and I don't want to worship a god or statue. The same feeling is in everyone elses heart because God placed it there. None can call Jesus Savior, but by the Holy Spirit. I know that I am saved - make sure you are too. Finally, this is my opinion, science proves the existence of God - that's basically what the psalmist David was explaining, while he gave praise.

Now, I do agree that no one knows everything - even the Bible says so:

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (King James Version)
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Now, the only one that knows everything is God - because, He is all knowing. That does not mean that since we do not know all things, that we cannot believe in the God that knows all things or that we can't summize from our finite knowledge, that he exist. He has not made it that hard. He want for all to believe in Him and for all to be saved from their sin. I sin, you sin, we all sin.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

danae.mesa says:

love it.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

windstorm2009 says:

Interesting. I have my own beliefs in Draconity though :)
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Comica says:

so intresting, nice idea, a fav!
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

anothergrapher says:

J.Random said what I wanted to except much more elegantly than i would've.

I'd like to add: A line will never be drawn and what's wrong with that? I feel a bit offended because the photo seems biased against science. Why does it make the god side colorful? What's wrong with striving for the truth and the knowledge of the inner workings of our world?
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

Windstorm2009, perhaps you should read C.S.Lewis's 'The Screwtape Letters' I guarantee you'll find it a fascinating read from your angle of things :)

Dilla, don't be offended, God and science go hand in hand, where the clash happens is between Creation and Evolution. Creation is supported by science, Evolution is not. Both are theories supported by scientific evidence, but creation has a great deal more scientific evidence than Evolution. Of course it is right to 'strive for the truth and inner workings of our world', thats why God made us intelligent and inquisitive and gave us a lot to explore. There really is no conflict between Science and Creation, and the angle of the image at the top attempts to fool the viwer into looking at the Creation side as foolishly simplistic when it is really anything but. The image, unfortunatley does not attempt to tackle the equalised issues it raises. For instance it states that the sun is bright because: and then simplifies and mocks the beginning of the Creationists theory whilst not even bothering to explain that the opposite argument (Evolution), believes that the sun is bright because of an inexplicable accident.

The way that the image at the top should read would be more like this: The sun is bright because God in his infinite wisdom and love, created a huge ball of reacting fusion which gives off light and warmth to support the planet on which he created dependant life, whilst also using it to govern the gravity and movement of the solar system.

The concept of creation, allows for everything that we do and dont know, to be created, and to exist as we believe them to. However, one of the biggest philosophical problems with the theory of evolution, is that evolution states that all things came from a random product of chance. There is no intent or meaning to any form of existance in evolution, everything is one big accident, not only did pure random chance bring one planet, but hundreds of thousands, planets stars galaxys etc, and then on top of that our planet is the only one we know of for sure that, due to incredibly complex positioning sytems in space (Not to mention the complexity of our own atmosphere), is capable of supporting life. Only supporting it mind you! Then by chance, every form of life on this planet came into being at around about the same time, evolving with no intelligence by chance from gue into living breathing complex interdependant species and systems. Now to get to the point, if all of this happened by chance with no meaning or purpose, then everything it produces is also devoid of meaning and purpose, a giant cosmic accident. This in turn means that evolutionists are arguing that they do not have choice or freewill or any of the fundamental attributes that humanity consider to be part of their faculties. They are arguing that just as random chance gave birth to our existance, random chance continues to govern our actions, random chemical imbalances and changes are in control of your every movement and what you beleive to be decisions are in fact impulse reactions to random factors that by chance influence you and 3 billion people on earth to react in roughly the same way to most given situations.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

topicagnostic says:

OMG, Landscapeben. Evolution doesn't attempt to explain the sun. It just explains the process of inheriting traits, and the modifications to species that result. Wow.

It's your philosophical problem if you don't know what to do with your life if God isn't there to worship. The rest of us will be exercising our free will.
Posted 9 months ago. ( permalink )

Napalm filled tires says:

dude is a moron.

religion is for people who want to believe what they want to believe, rather than believe what is really going on in reality.

landscapeben is in his own little world.
Posted 9 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

Topicagnostic:

Evolution is an all encompasing theory which attempts to explain the origin of all life (this would by necessity include the sun etc). The theory of evolution goes a good deal further than explaining "the process of inheriting traits, and the modifications to species that result", It also proposes that many species were able to change into entirely different species, something unsupported by any evidence that we see in the world around us. Why do you think the 'missing link' is thus named? Because it's still missing!

Secondly, In my above statements I am merely pointing out a major philosophical flaw with the theory of evolution. I do not have a problem with you choosing to ignore, that the theory in which you believe does not support the fundamental beleif you have, that you possess freewill.

Can you truly not see the lack of logic in saying that you evolved from goo over millions of years by pure random chance, and yet somehow have obtained freewill and choice, so that you are able to make descisions outside of the dictatorship of your chemical and physical processess?

If evolution is true, then the choices you think you make are in fact not choices but actions that you HAVE to make because your body / immediate surroundings / evolution, forces you too.

If evolution is true, then people who commit attrocities such as hitler become free of blame, because they had no choice but to do the things they do.

Now I know that sounds ridiculous, but that is why I have said it, because it is ridiculous and if you beleive in evoltion at face value without looking at it in any more depth, then this stupidity is what you accept as your faith. (Evolution is just another faith)

Napalm Filled Tires:

Why don't you quit calling people names, and present your evidence. I challenge you to blow apart my little world with some of your 'reality' as you call it, I have an open mind and am willing to discourse anything with you in the hope that I may become enlightened by your wisdom :D

Or are you perhaps another person who simply accepts evolution as their religion because it's the easy way out and dosent require you to make any commitment? Have you studied the possibilies and come to the conclusion based on the evidence that you find, that evolution is true? I guess we will have to wait and see.
Posted 9 months ago. ( permalink )

danieleclassic says:

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Fotografia e Filosofia and we'd love to have this added to the group!
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

TheRiverDark says:

Can I recommend you buy a book? Even my 7-year-old son understands the concept of evolution. Educate yourself, my friend.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

TheRiverDark says:

Okay, I don't have much time, but just a few notes

Evolution is an all encompasing theory which attempts to explain the origin of all life

No, it doesn't. Evolution is the gradual change of organisms over time. No more, no less. There are plenty of people who believe that God created the universe, and evolution is the method he used to create life. Evolution does not equal atheism. The origin of life is a whole other question, to which we don't have the answer. There are various hypotheses as to what caused life to exist. There are many of us who realise that a complex being is a completely useless answer, as it would need a huge explanation in its own right. However, believers conveniently overlook this.

you evolved from goo over millions of years by pure random chance

Who says this? I've never heard anyone suggest that we did. However, the mutations necessary for evolution are random, and many of them do nothing, or harm the growth and success of the organism. Therefore, these usually don't appear in fossils. However, the mutations that succeed and improve the success of the organism, naturally flourish and become widespread. Natural Selection is the non-random process by which mutations are filtered. Successful organisms naturally are more likely to become fossilised, due to the large number of individuals that exist.

Over time, and due to factors such as a changing environment, organisms continue to adapt to survive. Inevitably, these changes eventually lead to organisms that are unable to mate with others of the (originally) same species. This is a painfully obvious result of natural selection. Once the two populations cannot interbreed, they continue to evolve in slightly different directions. Maybe one population lives in a dry, arid area; and perhaps the other population is nearer wetlands by the coast. One population would, over thousands of generations, adapt to their dry environment. Maybe the creatures that are able to store their water for long durations become the dominant individuals, eventually replacing the less able. This could continue until we have something with the amazing adaptations of a camel (for example). The wetland population would favour those creatures that are able to survive in that environment. Perhaps animals with an improved ability to find food in the water; webbed feet could become dominant, along with thicker, waterproof fur. These small changes continue over the vastness of time, and it's inevitable that we would end up with a multitude of different life, as we see around us today. This really is not a complicated idea.

The only way to object to speciation is by putting an imaginary barrier in the way of the changes that happen, thereby stopping them from changing too much. But why invent a barrier? Why not just accept that these changes do eventually result in organisms that appear very different from the original?

Perhaps because you're convinced that your God wouldn't use something as beautiful and elegant as evolution to achieve the amazing natural world we see. No, of course, he just clicked his fingers and everything appeared. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

I also am somewhat pressed for time but I am working on my response. Just so glad you were willing to discourse :D
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

"Evolution is the gradual change of organisms over time. No more, no less."

You only have to go onto wikipedia and type in evolution to see that the term evolution is a theory and terminology which is used to encompass far more than this, here give it a try: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution Now I must agree with you that used in strictest sense, the term evolution is dealing only with what happened subsequent to the origin of life. But in general it is acknowledged as having a far wider scope of meaning as a term.

“There are plenty of people who believe that God created the universe, and evolution is the method he used to create life.”

While it is true that there are many people who believe in a biblical God using evolution as his creationary tool, this is something which is beginning to die in the church, as it is easily demonstrated that there is no shred of biblical evidence that this is what God did. In fact quite the opposite, we are given an explicitly detailed account of a six day creation. Now, the basis on which some Christians attempt to get past this, is generally in the siting of one verse; 2nd Peter Chapter 3:

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.”

This is used in two ways: either to say that as this is obviously written allegorically it is therefore certain to mean that the Genesis account of creation is also allegory. Or: that this is written literally therefore it must mean that the literal account of Genesis is affected, and that the six days subsequently have to refer to a far more extended period of time. The problem with this is that the Genesis account is written as a historical fact, not as allegory, while the 2nd Peter passage is most definitely written as allegory, so that the two do not in fact affect each other, and the later certainly does not invalidate the literal nature of the former. Thus the problem with trying to fit evolution into the bible, is that in order to achieve it you must invalidate scripture which Christ himself quoted as fact (the geneseis account), by saying it is allegorical, or by saying it is literal (2nd Peter passage), and when you do this you end up with the issue that anything in scripture can now be taken to mean whatever you please. The whole bible becomes invalidated and undermines the basis for your faith. For this reason, many in the church are now returning to believing in a literal 6 day creation. After all, if we believe God could have created it at all, then why not in 6 days? The reason so many Christians were fooled into believing they could combine the two is because they thought that the evidence for evolution was conclusive and so they had to try to combine what they believed with evolution. The evidence, however, is far from conclusive and the combination does not fit.

“There are many of us who realize that a complex being is a completely useless answer, as it would need a huge explanation in its own right. However, believers conveniently overlook this.”

I don’t see how believing in a God, requires any more explanation than believing that we were a cosmic accident and that none of this happened on purpose. It seems comprehendible to me that a God which is not physical and so does not have the requirements of being created physically, can have existed in what we call eternity. It does not however seem comprehendible that from a physical nothing, came a physical explosion which created by chance everything we know with all of its complexities and interdependent forms of life, each with their own impossible accident to have brought about their being.

You neglect to remember that those who believe in some form of a God far out number you who do not, and that it is only within the past two hundred years of recorded history that anyone has believed in anything but a form of God.

“Who says this? I've never heard anyone suggest that we did.”

The majority of evolutionary thinkers, have for some time now held the theory in conjunction with evolution (the later being a natural extension), that after the planet came into existence it was able to support life, and that through atmospherical changes, chemical and organic compounds, and electric currents, reactions were created which resulted in the birth of the single celled life form and thus the gradual evolutionary development of all life on our planet. This is a somewhat simplified version, but is accurate of what is currently being taught globally as the origin of life in conjunction with evolution.

“the mutations necessary for evolution are random, and many of them do nothing, or harm the growth and success of the organism. Therefore, these usually don't appear in fossils.”

This statement makes no sense, if we are part of an evolutionary process which takes billions of years to form, and has both bad and good mutations taking place constantly in abundance in every different species on the planet, then we would have to have evidence of these changes in the fossil record, just because they’re bad mutations doesn’t make them exempt from fossilization. There would not be few enough to of them not to have been fossilized at all in that massive time span and species span.

“Over time, and due to factors such as…”

You’re right; this is not to complicated an idea. However, there are some things that we agree on here. I agree with you that animals adapt to their surroundings, I would have to be stupid to deny that, as it is obvious that it happens. BUT, and it is a big but, while there is evidence that animals are able to make minimal changes to their appearance or to their ability to absorb certain toxins etc, there is no evidence at all that proves that one species can change over time into an entirely different species. A cat is still a cat, whether a lion or a tabby, a dog is still a dog whether a wolf or a Chihuahua. They have both changed from their common ancestor in size, shape, colour and ability, but they have not become a different species. Let’s clarify some more:

Macro evolution is a theory which states that one species, over time can become another species, entirely different. For example, that a large Devonshire bull, could over several million years become a butterfly.

Micro Evolution is the theory that minor changes within an animal, in order to adapt to a change in its surroundings can occur. For example, that a pet owner moves from Norway to live in South Africa, and finds that her cat which never used to malt, is now loosing hair all over the place as it adapts to the heat.

Many supporters of the evolutionary theory make these out to be one and the same thing, and that Macro is just a larger scale, longer time frame version of Micro. The problem with this is that Micro has evidence, we see it all around us, whereas, Macro has no such evidence, either in the present or in any historical form.

Christianity accepts Micro, as it does not alter the fundamental basis of our faith, that we were created unique as a species, in the image of our God. Christianity cannot, however, accept that we became human after millions of years of evolving from random changes in singular celled life forms, to apes, and thus to our present state. Why? Because there is NO EVIDENCE, period, the missing link is still missing, and not just in our species but in every species on the planet, and in all fossil records, and in all historical recordings, there are no examples of this form of change anywhere to be found. Furthermore, the evidence for our planet having been around for millions or billions of years is also fatally flawed. And there is far greater scientific evidence to show that our world is in fact only thousands of years old, again supporting a biblical creation.

I am convinced that God did not use evolution to create our world, but not because it is not a beautiful and elegant theory, but rather, because there is no evidence for it, and if I or anyone else attempts to marry the bible with evolution then it all falls apart, as the two are incompatible. I believe an all powerful God can create any way he chooses to, and for that reason also, I believe that how he said he did it is the truth.

I will not reiterate the flaws of evolution philosophically as I have already done this in an earlier post here, but suffice it to say, that I am understanding of your dilemma and that I wish you had the choice to believe in anything besides evolution :D
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

TheRiverDark says:

You only have to go onto wikipedia and type in evolution to see that the term evolution is a theory and terminology which is used to encompass far more than this

Okay, from the link:

"In biology, evolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next."

That's what I said: "Evolution is the gradual change of organisms over time."

Now, you need to be able to differentiate between evolution as a theory and evolution as a fact.

This quote is from H. J. Muller:

There is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact.

Now, in science, a current "theory" is a theory that has no equally acceptable alternative theory, and has survived attempts at falsification. That is, there have been no observations made which contradict it to this point and, indeed, every observation ever made either supports the current theory or at least does not falsify it. The falsification of a theory does not falsify the facts on which the theory is based.

So, what we have is evolution as a fact - all the evidence shows modification through the generations, whether we know why or not. And we have evolution as a theory - the scientific explanation for why evolution has happened.

no shred of biblical evidence

Now this is where creationists become a little unstuck. Considering the Bible as evidence is not a good place to start. If I came to you with Darwin's Origin of Species and claimed it to be evidence, you would rightly dismiss it as simply a book. A book is not evidence. The evidence we have is in the planet on which we live. It has to be dug up and examined. This is what scientists in certain fields do all the time, and is the reason we know so much about the world. If we didn't have scientists investigating the evidence, and if all we had were books, then we could simply believe anything that was written down by anyone in history, and take it to be fact.

The Bible cannot be taken as evidence. If you have any reason to tell me I'm wrong, please do. Oh, and by the way, saying, "The Bible tells me that the Bible is true" is not going to cut it!

I don’t see how believing in a God, requires any more explanation than believing that we were a cosmic accident

We are not an accident. Natural Selection has blindly steered in our direction for an unimaginable amount of time. We just happen to be able to look back from our current position, and of course it would appear, without further thought, that we were the goal of the universe. As if we are the ultimate reason for its being. However, there could have been countless other "current positions" in which we find ourselves. The world could have been populated with a completely different set of creatures, and we could be a completely different type of intelligent organism. We would look at ourselves fitting so brilliantly into our environment, and conclude the same thing: that we were designed to be here.

An analogy: We look at all the wonderful historical buildings and monuments around us today, for example the Great Pyramids, and conclude that the people that lived thousands of years ago had a supreme knowledge of engineering, unsurpassed by anyone living today. How else could they have built buildings that survive to this day? However, when you consider that there were countless more buildings and monuments that were built but have long since crumbled away to nothing, you realise that it just so happens that the buildings that were built by people who had good skills are the ones that survive today. Of course we would initially conclude that ancient people had superior knowledge. But it's just the ones that happened to get the right designs that survived.

And so it is with evolution, although designs wouldn't be the right word.

Everything has been shown to come from simple roots. The vast universe has been expanding from smaller, less ordered beginnings. Life has been getting more complex over time. The fossil record absolutely shows this. We don't find humanoid fossils before the past few million years. And humans outside of Africa are restricted to the last 200,000 years. There is an obvious story that's being told from fossil discoveries.

All the evidence points to a simple beginning to the whole universe. There were laws of physics in place that caused it to develop in a certain way, and if you want to believe an "intelligence" made the laws of physics, then feel free! But it does nothing to help with the scientific investigations at all. It's a personal decision to believe, based on the need to have something (anything!) at the beginning. Scientists, and atheists, do not feel this need. They're happy to wait for the evidence to show something or other was the case.

One thing that seems painfully obvious, is that a complex being (one that knows of humans, and deliberately designed complex life) is not a satisfactory explanation. Why do believers just say, "God is eternal" as a way of getting out of this conundrum? Sure, I could say a giant turtle designed the universe. You would correctly ask, "But where did the turtle come from?" to which I could respond, "Oh, well, the turtle was ALWAYS there". Wouldn't you feel a little bit irritated by my evasion of the question? Complex intelligence REQUIRES A CAUSE. Why does GOD not need a CAUSE? Where did GOD come from?

Until a believer can come up with a satisfactory answer to that question, then I'm afraid God is going to have to be dismissed by all thinking people.

if I or anyone else attempts to marry the bible with evolution then it all falls apart, as the two are incompatible.

We can agree on this ;-)

I'm sorry, there are points I didn't get to, as I have to get some things done around here. But I think there's enough there to be going on with. If there was anything specific you wanted me to say something about that I didn't mention, please tell me.

Best regards. And just to say, none of this is personal. These things can sometimes get heated, but there are no ill feelings towards you or anyone who thinks differently. I find the whole thing fascinating, and it's important that people discuss these things in an open and friendly manner. In that way, we all can get a deeper understanding and appreciation of other people.

Related video
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

I absolutely agree with your last comment, and will continue to discuss this with you as long as you are willing, thankyou for your positive attitude towards this discussion :D
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

“Okay, from the link:”

So did you fail to notice what the page content covers? I said yes I agree with you that if you take evolution to be the strict meaning of the term then it means what you said, BUT in common usage the term is taken to mean far more than just the specifics you are quoting, as it affects and is affected by other theories such as the origin of life which is a natural predecessor to evolution.

“Now, you need to be able to differentiate between evolution as a theory and evolution as a fact.”

So what you are telling me is that evolution is in fact a fact not a theory :D
I’m afraid I have a couple of problems with this,
A)If we take this hypothesis for granted then it means that there only have to be more people touting for one opinion than another in order for the wind to be in their favour and therefore their opinion to become fact. For example, I could say that a lump of granite is hard, but if four other people claim that it is soft and that my opinion is not an “equally acceptable alternative theory” then the majority’s opinion rules. This does not however mean that the rock is soft.
B)“there have been no observations made which contradict it to this point and, indeed, every observation ever made either supports the current theory or at least does not falsify it. The falsification of a theory does not falsify the facts on which the theory is based.” This statement is not true when looking at the case of evolution. There are massive gaping holes in both the theory and the facts which form its basis, which are largely ignored by the scientific community; these are problems which have been observed by both interested and independent, scientific communities chosen for verification so as to rule out objectiveness. For one of many such examples please take a careful read of this page: www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-ra diometric-da...

“Considering the Bible as evidence is not a good place to start.”

Ok, I obviously need to reword that sentence as I was referring specifically to Christians who attempt to justify evolution by looking for evidence of it within the biblical texts. I utterly agree with you that if God created our planet and gave us the inclination to seek out answers when studying our planet, then all of this should be evident above and beyond the book which he has given us to live our lives by. Now I differ from a lot of Christians on this as many believe that you need no evidence but the bible. This, however, is because they believe the bible to be much more than just a book but also an accurate record of the earliest histories of humanity and our world, a book of proven prophesy over the ages, a book which has been independently verified in some portions by other historical sources, and not least, a book which has been written over several thousand years by a large number of people both educated and uneducated, from all walks and situations of life and yet still remains cohesive as a whole, and we believe is inspired by the God who gave us being. I also believe all of this of the bible, however I also believe that we should look at the evidence that surrounds us to verify any opinions we have (In other words I believe in science :D).

“We are not an accident…”

I’m sorry but this made me laugh. To say that we are not an accident according to evolution and then to say that natural selection accidentally got us here, is not only saying that it was still accidental, but it is making natural selection and evolution appear as if they are just another form of god to the evolutionist (which indeed they are, as one needs some form of faith to believe in them when there remains so little evidence to support them). Don’t you see, happening without reason, intent or purpose, negates accidental. As soon as you start talking of ‘design’ then you are including its ramifications, design does not ever exist without a designer and some form of intelligence. Your sentence only makes an alternative god and faith.

“An analogy:”

I understand your point (although there are a great deal more reasons for architecture not to have survived than just poor design as any historian will tell you), and this would appear to apply to evolution very nicely, indeed it is a well thought through statement. However, in the case of ancient architecture we know that there are many exemplary buildings which failed to make it to the present age, because we have the evidence, both in terms of the ruins themselves, and in historical documentation. Unfortunately, we cannot say the same for evolution which claims to have buildings which failed, but does not have any ruins to prove it, nor historical documentation to support it. In every species on the planet (1.4 million of them), there are supposed to be (according to evolution), billions of changes that have taken place to get them to where they are now. This means, that just like the need to look for evidence in our world to support biblical theory, we also should be able to study our world and see evidence for the billions of changes that are supposed to have happened over billions of years. Unfortunately for evolution this is where it remains theory, as there is no evidence. We have evidence that other species exist, but that’s just obvious, we have evidence that little changes appear within those species, this can be observed, we do not, however, have a scrap of evidence that shows that one species has ever, in an identifiable chain, changed into an entirely different species.

“The fossil record absolutely shows this.”

I refer back to my earlier link here, as if dating of the fossil records was correct then science could issue the infallible statement that life has been getting more complex, as it could prove when each level of complexity existed in a chain that leads to the present day. However, as it cannot issue this statement, I will continue to believe that all original forms of life were created around the same time, thereby meaning that they co-existed (there is a great deal of historical evidence to prove that man and dinosaur for instance did just this), and that life has not become more complex, but rather has always had varied levels of existing complexity as initially designed.

“It's a personal decision to believe,”

I agree that it is a personal decision to believe, and that this is based on the need to have some reason for existence, I do not however believe that this is any different to the need to understand our existence in relation to each other and the species under our care, it is just a natural extension.

“Scientists, and atheists, do not feel this need.”

Theologically, philosophically, physically, spiritually, there is evidence, evidence enough to mean that there are many scientists and physicists who believe in God and creation according to the bible. Remember science is not a belief, it is either supported and proven, or unsupported and questioned fact. Faith is a step beyond into the unknown where evolutionists and believers venture, it is not science itself but it can be verified by science. Scientists are not by occupation atheist, and should not be grouped as such, they come to many conclusions from the answers that science offers, and there are many who conclude God.

“…is not a satisfactory explanation.”

I find it no more satisfactory to claim that we were the product of nothing, and that from a non physical void everything we know came into existence by chance. It makes more sense to me to believe in a spiritual non physical (and therefore unlimited by a need for his own creation), God who created the physical by choice and with freewill and intelligence. This is not evading the question but clarifying the issue. You see you believe that from nothing spiritual or physical everything came into life by chance FROM NOTHING. Christians believe that from an eternal SPIRITUAL God, all things physical were created. Spirituality does not require beginning and has embodied choice and reason. Physicality requires beginning and cannot create itself with or without reason if it has no materials to begin with. Of course the alternative beginning theory is that the universe has always been in an endless cycle of explosion and implosion, but then you too are dealing with eternity.

I hope that this gives you as a ‘thinking person’ some kind of satisfactory answer.

I look forward to hearing your replies, sorry it took a while what with Christmas. A happy new year to you and yours, and might I sneak in a God bless you? :D
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

godserv says:

I guess the only way most unbelievers think they will believe in God is by God coming down and performing a miracle in front of their very eyes. Well, that been done already. We have a book full of that. However, I think if it were to happen today - some would still not believe. A person who has a need to see a sign for them to believe actually has a wicked heart because you deny the evidence you stand on (earth) and ask for one more and the when the same God come down and perform them - you call him "just a prophet" and then ask for more miracles so that you may believe.

1. Here is another link with evidence that evolution has no foot to stand on or any hand to brace itself to an upright position, thanks to science:

Scientists discover new forest with undiscovered species on Google Earth

2. Here is one that proves that Dinosours roamed the earth with men and smashes the millions/billions of years theory, thanks again to true scientific researchers:

Stegosaurus carved in a ten-foot column at the Ta Prohm Cambodian.
Scientist are baffled, because the carvings were drawn years before Dinosaur bones were discovered and seem to suggest that men and dinosaur roamed the earth together and not at different periods of time. The word Dinosaur was only made up in 1841. There are many findings since then that goes against the evolutionary theory and the millions of years teachings in our text books. More info can be found at Creation Museum

Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

TheRiverDark says:

Sorry for the delay! I hope all's well.

"in common usage the term is taken to mean far more than just the specifics you are quoting, as it affects and is affected by other theories such as the origin of life which is a natural predecessor to evolution."

Not really. Evolution is what evolution is. It doesn't attempt to say where life originated. If people are mis-using the term that way, that's their fault, not the term's. Plenty of people assume a divine origin to life, but with the added detail of evolution as the means by which the deity created us. Evolution doesn't immediately deny any possibility of a God.

"then it means that there only have to be more people touting for one opinion than another in order for the wind to be in their favour"

I don't think I said that (correct me if I'm wrong). I said that all the evidence shows gradual modification of organisms over time (evolution=fact). We then have theories as to how this has happened (evolution=theory).

"There are massive gaping holes in both the theory and the facts which form its basis, which are largely ignored by the scientific community"

Would you only accept evolution if we had every conceivable piece of evidence ever produced on the planet? Obviously we're never going to have 100% of the evidence. We have to work with what we have. And what we have completely suggests evolution.

As for the link you provided. There are many methods of dating rocks, and no reputable scientist would rely on just one method. There are at least nine different techniques for dating, and a combination is used to determine the ages of rocks. Only after broad agreement between methods is an age considered to be fairly accurate.

Also, the link suggests that, "The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible.".

How can anyone think this to be the best method by which we can learn about the Earth? I know you said, "I utterly agree with you that if God created our planet and gave us the inclination to seek out answers when studying our planet, then all of this should be evident above and beyond the book which he has given us to live our lives by. Now I differ from a lot of Christians on this as many believe that you need no evidence but the bible." but the quote in the link above exposes the extreme bias of the writers, and therefore shows that we cannot take them seriously.

"To say that we are not an accident according to evolution and then to say that natural selection accidentally got us here, is not only saying that it was still accidental, but it is making natural selection and evolution appear as if they are just another form of god"

You misunderstand. We are an accident in that we were not the original intent of the universe, or of evolution. We are what we are, and in hindsight it obviously looks like we were supposed to happen. But we would think that no matter how we looked. If we had evolved to have twenty limbs and three heads, we would look at ourselves, and look back at evolution and determine that we were the ultimate goal. But this is just simplistic thinking.

However, we are NOT an accident in the way that many creationists like to say we think. We didn't just appear one day, by magic. The atoms in the universe didn't suddenly coalesce into the planet and organisms we see today. It was a long, gradual process. Evolution has resulted in us, not by accident, but by natural selection. Natural selection is not a theory of chance (accident). The strongest and most able to survive, inevitably survive. This obviously would result in all organisms today being masters of their immediate environment. The organisms in the past that weren't up to the task, generally died before passing on their genes, so we don't have a world full of "unfit" organisms.

"I will continue to believe that all original forms of life were created around the same time, thereby meaning that they co-existed (there is a great deal of historical evidence to prove that man and dinosaur for instance did just this)"

You believe this? Where is this evidence? All the evidence I've seen suggests that we are separated from the dinosaurs by more than 60 million years. If there's a "great deal" of evidence you should be able to provide a small sample for my reading pleasure, if you would be so kind.

"You see you believe that from nothing spiritual or physical everything came into life by chance FROM NOTHING."

Remind where I said that, please? You may have trouble with that task, because I didn't say it. I am willing to say that I don't know how the universe began, and I don't know how life began. I am willing to let skilled people come up with ideas, and test those ideas, and potentially come up with a viable theory in the future. I am in no need to invent answers.

The idea of a God seems like the ultimate in inventing answers. We don't know how the universe started, so let's assume something started it. We see beauty and purpose in things around us, so let's assume the "something" that started the universe also had some kind of plan to bring beauty and purpose to the world. We think that we are the ultimate goal of the universe, so let's assume we were the ultimate goal of the "something" that started the universe.

The trouble is, how can a supremely complex intelligence be the FIRST thing to have existed? Intelligence, according to all evidence, and all logic, is something that comes about after time has passed. If this is so, then a powerful intelligence cannot have existed before the universe existed. It doesn't make any sense. If you're willing to say God had no beginning, why not skip this and just say the universe had no beginning? If you think something like the universe HAS to have had a beginning, then why does God not deserve the same treatment?

Okay, I must go.

Thanks for the God bless you (actually my atheist father often says that! I can appreciate the sentiment if not the divine inspiration! lol)

Take care. Hope you're having a nice January.

Doug
Posted 6 months ago. ( permalink )

godserv says:

@ dougbphotos
The mere fact that God has no beginning and no end makes Him God. (The God)
Please see all the attributes of God, the I Am, here: www.allaboutgod.com/attributes-of-god.htm

He is Omniscience, Omnipresence, etc. He works by his laws, not mens law. He does not need to learn because he knows everything. He is not a 'man god'. How can you worship a god that is not all powerful and is easily understood? If we wanted a God like that, we would worship Molek (Satan Himself) who has a beginning and is not omini-present or all know etc. One thing I know God did on a human level is experience. Example, Jesus experienced death when we killed Him on the cross - however, he knew death before the beginning of time (human time, calculated by the rotation of the heavenly bodies), even before it came into the world.

The attributes of God makes Him the only God that could create this universe from nothing. It would take God forever to learn how to create this universe if learning was one of His attributes. Within a single cell there is an order like that of the known universe, bodies rotating around bodies, when scientist look even deeper they see gears and truck like structures, working in order just like the structure of a city you live in. A single cell is more complex than the city of New York and believe me, we have not seen everything that is within a single cell, just like we have not seen everything that is within the Milky Way galaxy. The God we serve is a Powerful and Holy God but, He has a special place for you and me, we are His creation and He seeks a personal relationship with us. He loves us so much that even after we messed up, He sent His Son to die and suffer on a cross for our sins. God knew how to create all this and there are things that He is yet to reveal to us in the next life that we can't even imagine, even hell, which was not made for us but, instead was made for Molek and his fallen angels.

We can't think of God in a human philosophical manner, it does not fit. Yea, maybe some of us would like to put God in a petri dish and study Him like we study His creation, but the only gods that we can study that way, is the gods of this world - the ones carved from God's creation and are used by Molek to brain wash us by him appearing unto men as an angel of light to folks like Mohammed and others.

Richard Dawkins, one of evolutions greatest activist, when confronted with the fact that the beginning of the earth (and universe) must have come about by some sort of intelligence, stated that he believes that maybe we "earthlings" may have been seeded by an alien race that is very intelligence. First let me say, that an alien race could not create the Universe or us just because they are presumably smart. It takes more than smarts to build (create) this universe. I don't believe in the intelligent design argument, I think the argument is flawed also because most do not put God into the equation. Now the argument of an alien race leads right back to Molek. Why? I believe aliens are no more than fallen angels and they are under the rule of Molek (Satan), therefore the mind that says there is no God (not saying that you said that) or that God could not create the universe with the Word of His mouth, must look for another explanation when they realize that evolution cannot fully explain the origin of life or this vast universe. That's hard to swallow but if you study all the known cults (religions other than the Christian Faith) and alien encounters, you will see a plain undeniable hatred for the God of the bible and the followers of Jesus Christ, the Messiah and person through which everything that is created was created. Jesus is the Word. God created everything with His Word. It takes more than intelligence to create this world, it takes all the supernatural attributes of God and His Word. Thank God for science and the ability for us to study our God's creation but if we leave him out of the equation (not all scientist do) we will be forced to believe in the system of Molek, the enmity of God and His followers. Just do the study and pray to God to open your eyes because we have been deceived.

Lastly, there is nothing that we know, do and will study in the future, that God does not know. God knows the number of hair on your head, He even knows how to create a new earth and to save us from our sin.

Also evolution is not a fact if its still an hypothesis. It's only an hypothesis that has no other scientific rival at this moment in time. The only time an hypothesis becomes fact (theoretical) is when it's proven without a doubt eg. Gravitational Law

"Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

Real scientific theories must be falsifiable. So-called "theories" based on religion, such as creationism (Chrstians should not call creationism, science, but a belief based on the inspired Word of Almighty God - Godserv) or intelligent design (I would definately through in evolution in this claus, notice how they dismissed it here? - Godserv) are, therefore, not scientific theories. They are not falsifiable and they do not follow the scientific method.
" - wilstar.com/theories.htm

They may call evolution a theory but speaking the true language of scientist - you must stop at hypothesis. The so called theory of evolution cannot be used to advance us. That is why most cults are looking forward to our so called next step of evolution which they think is spiritual - they have now moved from physical macro evolution to spiritual macro evolution - another lie from Molek himself, the deceiver. Do some reading into the new age religions and you will see that they all teach that, if you are good or do certain things to become good you will become God. They even use the name Jesus in their writings. That is ultimate self righteousness and God calls our self righteousness, "filthy rags", it's only good enough to be thrown into the garbage and lit with fire, when compared to the majesty and holiness of our living God. The I AM.

Now with all that said, do you need to believe in creation to be saved - No. However when you are saved God will do that work in you, so don't feel like I'm trying to force you to believe in creation. What i would implore you to do, to be saved, if you are not, is believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The message of creation is a message to all of us but, it does not save you from your sin, it only point you to a full realization of the nature of God. It's good because, in your heart you want & need an all powerful God and thats one of the truths in the story and actuality of the creation revelation in the book of Genesis.

Your life depends on your belief in Jesus' death for us on the cross and being resurrected on the third day. It is written. The person that believes in this and gives his life over to the commands of Christ (follow Christ) are those that are called Christians (Christ Followers), sons of God. You will be bonded into the family of God. That's the Word of the God that created you. I give you no news from Molek (Satan) the deceiver.
Posted 6 months ago. ( permalink )

Landscapeben says:

Work in progress :D
Posted 6 months ago. ( permalink )

choda42 says:

Wow! Lots of reading!
A good range of Gods and religious texts mentioned.
It's a shame that this argument goes in circles and will never end.
Religion will be the fall of the human race. Unfortunatly, we will probably bring the rest of the planets species down with us.
Posted 6 months ago. ( permalink )

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