Two Loomis Employees Refilling an ATM at the Downtown Seattle REI on Flickr

Bookis says:

Finally I've got their secrets! Thanks Shaners.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Thanks for taking the photo. Even if did cost you something. I love these kinds of photos - like you say it's interesting to see the normally hidden guts.

The redbox automated DVD rental sites have really interesting guts.

You know, if they were so worried about a picture being taken, they should put up a good old fashioned privacy screen.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

someguy9 says:

I'm glad you posted it
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

MikeWren says:

lol at the "not cops" keyword... good stuff, thanks for sharing!
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

monkeytime says:

Sounds like false imprisonment all 'round. Buncha jobsworths.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

jeffrojr says:

you are helping the terrorists by posting this photo. plus, it's overexposed.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

sean dreilinger says:

what an embarrassing incident for REI, Loomis, and the Seattle Police. you'd think those three organizations would be able to do better at resolving conflict.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Pete Boyd says:

You should throw this at the 'photography is not a crime' group (http://www.flickr.com/groups/photography_is_ not_a_crime/). It's full of these kind of mind boggling incidents that you got into with "the exertion of power and the protection of its image".
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

UK-Wookie says:

Simply hilarious (although not for you at the time) but inretrospect.... brilliant!
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Aaron Brown Photography says:

I'm glad I ran into your blog. I would have done the exact same thing and felt the same way. Way to stick to your guns so to speak.

I wonder if the 2600 magazine got wind of this.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

kyz says:

I don't normally endorse vegan sXe anarchist ruby dudes, but today you totally did the right thing.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

T. Jason Wright Photography says:

I hope you win lawsuits from this... and I used to be a police officer! The security and police in this case were very very wrong and detained you unlawfully. If anything maybe you should have walked out before the real cops got there, then let the security tackle you so you could have filed suit and pressed charges against them! What morons. You did nothing wrong.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

cjdavis says:

Reminds me of a photo a friend of mine took going through airport security a couple of years ago:

Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

ekai says:

Props to you for having the balls to stand up for your rights. Many others would have buckled earlier, providing ID just to end it all.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Paul-EV says:

You have our full support against these wannabe rent-a-cops!

Paul in Toronto, Canada!
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

amemoryoncelost says:

the tag "not cops" is the best thing ever, hahaha

shitty situation, power trips are cool...
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Guilherme Tondello says:

what an irony..
if none of the incident had happened..
half a dozen people would`ve seen the photo..
now.. over 5000, and counting...
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

The Kodachrome Project says:

As a professional photographer, this pisses me off to no end.
I love mechanical things too, but when it comes to things like the law, banks, military installations, USE COMMON SENSE MAN!!!

Sure, people have rights, but times are changing and those rights can change too. If you want to keep the respect of those who endorse your rights, EARN IT!

But if you don't care about other photographers or photography, just keep this ego-enlarging ignorant crap up and you will ruin it for everybody.

What an a$$!
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Pete Boyd says:

The Kodachrome Project: he's taken a photograph of a machine that hands out money. He's pointed out how the manufacturers of the machines have photos of them on their own web site.

Clearly the security guards don't consider people seeing into the machine to be an issue else they'd cover up what they were doing. So why do you consider it an issue?

It seems to me the issue that veganstraightedge encountered was that the security guards wanted to have a go at him either for taking their photograph or merely the ages old reason of nothing but men having an axe to grind; nothing about the machine. If what happened is for none of the reasons you state, then why are you being so extreme? Do you have an axe to grind?

Relating this to other photographers and to photography itself is absolutely ridiculous. The guy's merely snapped a photo of some regular activity going on down at his local shop.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

ekai says:

Kodachrome Project: "Sure, people have rights, but times are changing and those rights can change too."

No they can't, you can't lose them. Rights are inalienable. The way to ensure that is to exercise them regularly.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

The Kodachrome Project says:

I would imagine that by popular opinion, rights are not seen as a vehicle for ignorant behavior or poor choices.

While I agree that Loomis should have had some form of curtain blocking the view, looking at something and making a recording of it have differing effects in terms of who sees it and the impact of that.

As far as the guards might have been concerned, said happy-snapper could have just walked over and asked what this does and what that does and the obvious answer would have been that you have no business knowing that information.

Axe to grind or not, this photographer acted without regard to consequence and without any common sense. He simply has no business making the photo...unless he was trying to make a political statement by essentially throwing the first blow.

If I were assigned to shoot a piece on ATM skimmer fraud or do a profile of the guard for Loomis who just got back from Iraq, I would make sure my editors had taken the needed steps to clear all of that due to the nature of the topic. If I were going to spec shoot it, I would do the footwork my self.

But I would never just assume that my rights as a photographer would enable me to over rule any protest from the guards in regards to making a photograph of their professional task which is to safely make the monetary transaction on behalf of the company they work for and safe guard against the potential threat of associated exposure of all devices involved. In other words, sometimes you just have to respect people's wishes, rights or not.

This is where the common sense comes in and it should not take a professional to figure that out. So if amateurs and unsavory pros keep making a stink in photography through poor choices, expect professionals to lobby for some form of protection, even if that means amateurs and non-accredited pros start losing rights.

*Something* has to give, more and more people transmit information in front of billions of people daily. The ongoing and potential fallout of that is simply going to cause a change no matter what, so you have to decide what is important to you before that happens.

Education has not worked, an A-hole with a camera is still an A-hole and it is getting worse by the minute for photographers who want to keep a good name in the craft...

So what do you suggest then? Because quite frankly I am fed up with hacks like this exposing my rights as a photographer to the bad rap the pursuit is starting to garner from the public.

Bad press for photography is bad press so despite what you may think, this is not good.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

veganstraightedge says:

@Daniel Bayer (The Kodachrome Project):
Photography is not some special club that you can only be in with the coveted decoder ring. Photography is many things to many people. I can't help that you don't like how I live my life. I can't control how anyone (you, the loomis security guards, the rei security, the cops) will react to what i did.

this wasn't some act of protest or political statement. i've said repeatedly during and after the incident that i'm fascinated by the insides of things that we normally don't see.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

The Kodachrome Project says:

Be that as it may, your actions have consequence. This is a device that is privately owned and subject to high rates of criminal intrusion, you should have used common sense, what is inside this machine is to help safe guard the transaction of privately owned funds, it is simply none of your business to record it without permission.

When people act in this manner, it causes negative points to rack up in the name of the craft of photography. I have seen quite a change in how people and companies react to being photographed, especially in the past 5 years and it is *not* good.

Your actions and others like them are having a negative effect on our rights as photographers, so as this keeps up, photographers them selves are going start siding with the subjects more than you.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

Grant Goodale says:

@The Kodachrome Project: Your argument that @veganstraightedge's actions are fundamentally damaging the ability of "professional" photographers to maintain the right to go about their daily business is supported by neither law nor evidence. The law is quite clear on the subject - I assume you're already familiar with Bert's Krages' page on photographers' rights. To state that 'amateurs and unsavory pros' are to blame for the current level of paranoia and distrust around public photography is disingenuous at best. Or is every case of wrongful detainment detailed in the press the work of such shoddy photogs?

I agree with your statement that companies' and individuals' responses to photography have worsened in the last few years. Ignorance and paranoia on the part of those responsible for protecting those companies and individuals are eroding your rights as a photographer, not other people with cameras.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

democommie says:

The Kodachrome Project:

I've been taking photos for over 30 years in all sorts of places. If the building has no posted rules about the making of photographic images on the property, they have no one but themselves to blame. I was told by a security guard in a building I used to work in that I couldn't photograph some musicians who were playing in the central courtyard during a lunchtime concert--due to corporate rules. Because it wasn't worth arguing about I walked away. Sometime later, I saw the same security guard posing for a series of photographs with some young women during a social function that he was detailed to work. So, either the guy was a liar or a hypocrite, I'm unsure that it matters which.

Professional photographers are not generally going to be doing what this young man was doing. If you know any that do that sort of thing as a regular practice I think they are probably not making a living.
Posted 8 months ago. ( permalink )

The Kodachrome Project says:

I have been taking photos for over 34 years, I am 42. I have never seen the chaos that I see now in the internet age. I can see both sides of this, I have had *plenty* of run ins with overzealous security guards, but I have never "Lost face" as in the asian tradition of dignity and self respect when confronted with an opposing view.

So changes are in order, not loss of rights.

I think this is a perfect opportunity not only to combat the corporate and governmental fear mongering, but to make damn good and sure that we as photographers not only will stand up for our rights, but will not tolerate people who abuse those rights, whether they be a camera phone toting anarchist or an pair of surly security guards.

One thing is for sure, this latest episode has put me into action.
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

ekai says:

"One thing is for sure, this latest episode has put me into action. "

Awesome TKP. Whatcha gonna do?
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

UK-Wookie says:

This just gets funnier. Kodachrome isn't just making negative points, although he did finish his first post on a bit of a doozy! Really this whole episode highlights how things can spiral out of control from what is really a simple, minor incident.

As Vegan posted on his blog (not verbatim here OK); many sites and manufacturers post photos of their equipment (stop sniggering at the back!). Some even have detailed descriptions alongside. Loomis had no 'photography code of conduct' on display (although that would assume there would be anything of interest to photograph in the first place) and the whole 'refilling the machine' routine was taking place in full, open view of the public. I would imagine (not being a lawyer, nor legal counsel) that any expectation of privacy would be resoundingly dismissed as far fetched and nonsense.

Many of us have had the odd brush with 'officials' whilst shooting, although I would wager a lesser portion have had quite this outcome. A firend and I were out having some fun shooting here in London during our luchbreak. We walked past an open service hole in the road and my firend (Bald Monk snapped a shot. To which the contractor shouted; 'Oi, wot you taking photos of my manhole for?!' (Cue purile and totally deserved sniggers and laughter)

The upshot of this is, most people who are in a position of 'authority' are genreally amenable and once you explain and show them what you are doing, are very approachable. They may ask you to refrain from any further photography, quite often they will be appologetic about it; 'not my policy fella, just what it says in the handbook'. Sometimes reason doesn't come into it, case in point, and it doesn't matter how (un)reasonable your comments, repsonses may be, you are going to get grief.

Generally blogging/posting about it will generate a whole gammut of responses, most of which will fall into the reasonable/unreasonable categories. However, and this is the kicker, everyone will have a different opinion about:
- the original post
- the responding posts that are in agreement with the original post
- the responding posts that are NOT in agreement with the original post
- or the flamer who just enjoys winding people up (not me I promise!)

The outcome from Vegans escapade is, thankfully, relatively benign;
- he ~~wasn't officially arrested, just detained~~ having read the police reports it does state he was arrested, however released without charge (still not pleasant)
- the security people appeared to get what they wanted (whatever that may have been)
- the police did what they were duty bound to do, by the details they were given (probably didn't stand up to much hence being released without charge)

I am not saying I condone the actions of anyone involved. Yes Vegan could have chosen not the take the photo. Yes Vegan could have chosen to co-operate with the police a litte sooner. Yes the security guards could have decided it wasn't likely to be that much of a threat (c'mon it is an iPhone camera, not a topend DSLR!). Yes the police could have listened to both sides and just warned all involed that it wasn't really that serious in the great scheme of things. But none of these did happened and we all have 20/20 hindsight! We all know that a little power in the wrong hands can have some very unplesant outcomes. We all know there are a few jobsworths out there that seem to delight in making others days suck. They are an unlpeasant minority, but their actions ALWAYS stick in our minds far longer than the nice person who held the door open for you on the way into the office today. That appears to be an unfortunate desi9gn flaw in the human memory.

Sometimes it is when telling these stories that the wider audience is reached and lessons can be learned, by all. Just hiding our heads in the sand doesn't make things like this stop happening, but outright confirontation rarely resolves them in a good way.

Sorry for the long winded response.
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

The Kodachrome Project says:

UK Wookie, thanks for writing what you did, I don't want to be the villain here, just start taking a different approach to these things.

What you wrote is very well put and I agree with it 100%. I too, do not condone the actions of anyone involved. I know at first I came off hot headed, but at the time, I was simply that pissed about it. So I intend to do something about it and I have started by contacting REI, Loomis, NPPA and the ASMP about creating open and amicable dialogue in regards to what we do next to all emerge from this incident as more aware, more educated and with a game plan that ensures that the rights of photographers and the rights of employees to do their jobs remain intact and how best to avoid confrontation.

And before you might label me as "weak" for trying to avoid confrontation, consider that I have occasionally been put in situations as a professional in which my presence was not appreciated. I have been yelled at, punched, lunged at and even shot at. So what I have learned is that even though we have rights as individuals, we are also governed by the laws of nature and a lot of that is human nature and what goes with that is common sense.

You develop a broad base of common sense as you commit your self to being an empathetic person, a good person who puts your self in the shoes of others before you act or speak.

I really wish I could just let this go and move along in life with other important things like direct my project, build my darkroom, market my new work, etc. But I can not do that in good conscience when I know this is important & needs attention.

So with that, I will kindly bow out and get to work on it, I appreciate you all listening and lets see if we can make this crowded world a little better by learning from it all.

Sincerely, The Kodachrome Project
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

myDefinition (taking a break to keep me sane) says:

A quick search of Flickr for ATM returns 34,055 results for me. Few of these photogs got accosted, reprimanded or even talked to about their images despite being publicly available right here.

If Loomis or any other ATM service co had beef with this then they 'could' have asked Flick and the like to remove. I think we have clear precedence that its okay to photograph them. ;-)
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Rhodes says:

@Kodachrome Project You seem to think the only way @veganstraightedge should have taken this photo is if had gon through the hoops to get permission.

Aside from the fact it is is unlikely both REI & Loomis would have granted permission, that wasn't what happened here.

He saw something interesting happening & took a photo. That happens all the time. The ease of photography has changed and companies, instititutions (including museums), and security need to update their policies to deal with this.

Another issue is what if this had been an outdoor ATM? I took some photos of an ATM being serviced outside. I forget if I've posted them on flickr.

My experience with security guards at a Bank of America during an anti-war protest

www.flickr.com/photos/ari/sets/72157604180766 701/
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

Chuckumentary says:

Bravo. What you did is not illegal and their overreaction is ridiculous.

Consider adding this photo to The Harassed Photographer and You can't take pictures here!
Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

Muzzlehatch says:

I've had it in with private security before, more than once, for taking pictures (on public property)

I am sick to death of security knuckleheads. OTOH, inside a store I probably would have left. It ain't worth it.

When the real police are the knuckleheads, I just cooperate. If they were to seriously infringe my rights, I'd be in contact with an attorney too. But that hasn't happened. Yet. So far they have been annoying but in the end it turns out ok.

I got investigated for being a possible terrorist for this picture of a thrill ride. We all know Allah hates a thrill.

Posted 7 months ago. ( permalink )

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Two Loomis Employees Refilling an ATM at the Downtown Seattle REI

Comments

Bookis says:

TheCreepyGuy says:

someguy9 says:

MikeWren says:

monkeytime says:

jeffrojr says:

sean dreilinger says:

Pete Boyd says:

UK-Wookie says:

Aaron Brown Photography says:

kyz says:

T. Jason Wright Photography says:

cjdavis says:

ekai says:

Paul-EV says:

amemoryoncelost says:

Guilherme Tondello says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

Pete Boyd says:

ekai says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

veganstraightedge says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

Grant Goodale says:

democommie says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

ekai says:

UK-Wookie says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

myDefinition (taking a break to keep me sane) says:

Steve Rhodes says:

Chuckumentary says:

Muzzlehatch says:

Would you like to comment?

veganstraightedge' s photostream

Loomis / ATM / REI Incident (Set)

Seattle (Set)

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Two Loomis Employees Refilling an ATM at the Downtown Seattle REI

Comments

Bookis says:

TheCreepyGuy says:

someguy9 says:

MikeWren says:

monkeytime says:

jeffrojr says:

sean dreilinger says:

Pete Boyd says:

UK-Wookie says:

Aaron Brown Photography says:

kyz says:

T. Jason Wright Photography says:

cjdavis says:

ekai says:

Paul-EV says:

amemoryoncelost says:

Guilherme Tondello says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

Pete Boyd says:

ekai says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

veganstraightedge says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

Grant Goodale says:

democommie says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

ekai says:

UK-Wookie says:

The Kodachrome Project says:

myDefinition (taking a break to keep me sane) says:

Steve Rhodes says:

Chuckumentary says:

Muzzlehatch says:

Would you like to comment?

veganstraightedge' s photostream

Loomis / ATM / REI Incident (Set)

Seattle (Set)

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