Against rape

That tear and that tape are addressed in the first two comments below

At a bus stop at the local university

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No one should accept rape; everyone should oppose rape.

Unfortunately, "real men" do accept rape.

I think the "real men do not let men rape" message was a way of advocating a different form of masculinity -- in opposition to other forms of masculine aggression (from guys who nevertheless are "real men"), or the the acceptance of that aggression.
In other words, I think the "real men do not let men rape" message was a challenge to certain aspects of mainstream masculinity.

---

That anti-rape flyer was modified to read "real men do rape" --
words that can be interpreted as either a pro-rape message, or an anti-men message.

---

Another sheet about respecting women was taped up nearby (in a much more visible location) --
until that other sheet was quickly torn down.

=====

I have posted about that flyer and the Flickr comments posted below here -
"Inter-sex and inter-gender solidarity ?"

In that post I have linked to four other posts (at other blogs)
about this flyer.

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Comments

Chris Schneider Photos says:

It appears that someone started to tear it down--much like the other sign.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

The tape along the right side is different. I think that side of the sheet might have been taped back down after it was pulled away from the surface.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Yesterday the sheet was still there, but it was only taped down at the top and the bottom; and the tape along the right seemed to be completely gone.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

stephanie.keating says:

Hey Toban,

I thought you'd be interested in seeing what some unfortunate soul did to the poster in this photograph. I documented it here: flickr.com/photos/skeating/3234026549/ ... and then tore it down.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

I find this pro-rape message upsetting and even disturbing.

Thanks for sharing the photo though.

I think we can assume that the pro-rape message was supposed to be a joke.
But how could they make light of rape?
It's outrageous.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

On second thought -

The "real men do rape" statement that Stephanie photographed actually might have been a way of condemning men --
all men.

The statement in that photo certainly can be interpreted in that way -- no matter what was intended when the sheet was altered.

Anyway, I oversimplified the statement when I initially read it as strictly a pro-rape message.
Posted 11 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Before I blocked their account (thereby automatically deleting their comments here), "hujo9001" wrote -

> WOW the feminists wont ever stop conflating every man with
> criminals and the elite ever hey?

> "When a woman is raped it's every mans fault"

> What blind scapegoating hatred. If feminists were truly against
> sexism they would burn this not celebrate it.

> It's high time men and women took a stand against feminist
> sexism and hatred.

---

"the feminists"?

You really mean to suggest that there is just one "feminist" perspective?

... even as you write about over-generalized "conflating"
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Before I blocked their account (thereby automatically deleting their comments here), "hujo9001" wrote -

> There are humanist perspectives and their are feminists. I
> generalize an ideology while this powerful ideology generalizes a
> gender. Institutionalized feminism echoes this kind of
> scapegoating in many ways. A humanist understands that rape is
> not something all men do and understands not all men allow it to
> happen. A humanist would understand it does not just happen to
> women, in our culture rape in government institutions(prisons) is
> seen as a joke and a from of justice it is condoned by the system
> and by society. Therefore glib anti-male messages promoted by
> feminist groups do nothing but cloud the issue breed hatred and
> leave male victims in the dark.

> How would you define this version of feminism? And if you are
> against generalizations why would you promote this?

----

There are problems with the message on the poster (as I have noted above), but there are many feminists who have more constructive contributions to offer. I try to be one of those constructive feminists (when I'm not focusing on other issues).

Basically what I'm saying is that your criticisms only apply to some feminists (or so-called feminists).

You seem to be dismissing what all feminists have to offer.

I do think that anti-men views are a problem though -- for everyone (rather than just men).
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Before I blocked their account (thereby automatically deleting their comments here), "hujo9001" wrote -

> "It is a very real problem when these views are constantly
> reinforced by the media/ the education system and our
> government. Ever done research on domestic violence or the
> wage gap NOT using feminist sources, you may be surprised."

---

OK, clearly you are intent on suggesting that there are feminists lording over us all --
as if people actually are told to be concerned about wage gaps, domestic violence, etc, on a regular basis.
(You even go so far as to say that "these views are constantly reinforced.")

You also are willing to pretend that there is a lot of controversy about wage gaps -- as though those figures are a big mystery. It is difficult to reach conclusions about the extent to which there is domestic violence, but income figures are very straightforward.

Basically you've been saying that feminists are a major problem while denying that sex and gender hierarchies are problems.

Given that these comments are related to an anti-rape message, I find your statements very objectionable
(to use civil, watered-down language).

Don't bother trying to post any more of those messages here. I will just remove them.

(Update - Of course, I left comments up after making that last statement. I should have just deleted them though.)
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Before I blocked their account (thereby automatically deleting their comments here), "hujo9001" wrote -

> "I see this as an anti-male message, you're asking the
> questions, but yes along with scapegoating censorship is
> another tactic of feminists,

> www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=1054757

> see reinforced by feminists"

---

"hujo9001" also had written this -

> "Do you honestly think 70 cents to the dollar means a male
> doctor or a male janitor makes 30 % more than their female
> peers? It doesn't, what it means is that on the high school level
> more men enroll in trades, on the collage university level more
> men enroll in tech and math. It comes from the general income of
> all Canadians and ignores position held, hours worked, regional
> markets and every factor that effects pay. The solution to the wage
> gap would be forcing women to take career's they don't want.
> Don't take my word for it next time a politico is quoted saying
> "70 cents" in a paper ask exactly what they are
> implying ask to see their stats. Labor statistics Canada "

-----

There is room for misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the income stats, but the stats do convey a large wage gap between men and women. Although there are a lot of complications (e.g. hours worked), the income gap itself is clear enough.

As for that National Post article -

You had said that you were concerned about how "views are constantly reinforced by the media/ the education system and our government." To back up this claim you posted a link to that article from two months ago --
an article that was about an annual (i.e. once a year) anniversary event.
In other words, you gave a very poor example of 'constant' feminism.

The article itself is downright shoddy. The author suggests that all victims of domestic violence are left with "broken bones," and she even goes so far as to say that domestic violence leaves people in Darfur-like conditions. (Ridiculous!) The author does not address how women tend to be injured far more during domestic violence incidents. The author writes about "mass hysteria" -- as though people even talk about domestic violence regularly (with great concern, or otherwise).

(As for the statistics in the article, I don't see a need to verify them, since they don't really amount to much in themselves. As I have indicated above, there are various other complications surrounding such statistics.)

Ultimately the author is defending violent men, rather than defending men in general. As a man, I don't want that National Post writer to pretend to be on my side.

Criticisms directed toward violent men are not criticisms of all men in general.

The author has tried to sweep inequalities associated with domestic violence under the rug.

So who are you, anyway
"hujo"?

Did you actually think that you were making a point when you posted that link?
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

It's bizarre that you're taking this stand against in response generalizations about men when the main statement in question here -- in the photo -- is about how "real men" are opposed to rape.
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Above you have suggested that feminism is at odds with humanism.

I think that these blog posts indicate how feminism can be humanist -
- "Prevailing forms of masculinity"
- "Remaking gender – Beyond women’s lives"
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

stephanie.keating says:

Do you honestly think 70 cents to the dollar means a male doctor or a male janitor makes 30 % more than their female peers? It doesn't, what it means is that on the high school level more men enroll in trades, on the collage university level more men enroll in tech and math. It comes from the general income of all Canadians and ignores position held, hours worked, regional markets and every factor that effects pay. The solution to the wage gap would be forcing women to take career's they don't want.

Wait, wait, what?!

Okay, sure, more men enroll in the trades and technology and math -- but do you honestly think that women don't want to go into these fields? As a woman getting her Masters in Astrophysics, I find that insulting.

Maybe you need to take a look at why there aren't as many women enrolling in these higher-earning jobs. I can tell you that it certainly isn't because they aren't smart enough, or because they don't want to. In many cases women DO want to go into a certain type of field, but there are a number of obstacles.

Obviously this is a complicated issue to discuss, with lots of ground for contention, but let's look at just one example (one that I'm personally familiar with).
Take academia: At the undergraduate level, in Canada, studying science, there are just as many, if not more, females enrolled than males. At the masters level, this drops off to about 70%-30% in favour of the males, I believe. At the PhD level, it drops off even more, to about 10%-90% (these figures come from a presentation I received last year, so I can't source at the moment, but I believe it's fair to say that there are definitely fewer female graduate students than male, in the sciences).

So why is this? Well, one reason could be the very simple fact that women have babies. A lot of women want to have babies. The safest time to have a baby is before age 30. Many people don't complete their PhDs or postdoctorates until that age. That's a critical point in your career, and the fact of the matter is that the system makes very little concessions for women who want to go on maternity leave. Academia is all about papers and publishing - you can't do that if you're at home taking care of a baby.

How can we fix this? A number of solutions have been proposed, one of which includes giving men more time off for helping with childcare. But as long as society continues to place the main burden of childcare on the woman, and doesn't compensate accordingly, we are going to find things like this happening.

So really, you need to look at WHY women aren't going into the higher paying professions...

Not to mention that our university did a pay equity survey a couple of years ago, and found that 78% of female professors were entitled to a compensation due to underpayment as compared to their male counterparts (http://communications.uwo.ca/western_news/PD F/WNews_April27_06.pdf). Now, I don't think that the deans of the departments are bigots and deliberately underpayed the female faculty, but that just goes to show you how pervasive this is in our society.

Dig deeper!
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Toban Black says:

Here's part of a comment from "hujo9001" that I've just deleted -

"They are implying only men commit it and only women suffer."

... "consequences are reflected in that only men are arrested for it and only women recive suppot for it."

In that comment from "hujo9001" there also were statements about how I supposedly won't "focus on the discussion" (i.e. the discussion which this person wanted to have) --
and how I was violating the rules they wanted me to follow during that discussion
(e.g. with their anonymity)
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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Taken on January 21, 2009
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Against rape

Comments

Chris Schneider Photos says:

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stephanie.keating says:

Toban Black says:

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