How does something like this happen?

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    after all the discussion we've had on the web this year about diversity and harassment, it's amazing that a quote like this can be used as a testimonial for a web conference... or anything for that matter.

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    1. adamcoop 73 months ago | reply

      You know you could save yourself $1000s each year if you just went around to Lis' and Lach's place and talked about microformats and drank copious amounts of alcohol.

      Maxine - mind if I use the "Web Essentials" name?
      I think I've just figured out a venue...

    2. john f allsopp 73 months ago | reply

      OK,

      just a disclaimer to start. Most people reading this probably know this, but, while I don't think we in any way compete with one another's conferences (and the existence of related conferences round the world I think helps all of them), I organize a conference that some would consdier as being in competition with @media. So, I am concerned that what I say does not come across as motivated by that. It doesn't. I've been pretty forthrightly on the record about this issue for a long time, and criticized people who are my friends about their position on this and related issues - which I think is a measure of a genuine friendship - the ability to frankly discuss things on which we don't agree. I also know Patrick well enough to know he is a pretty funny, droll guy, much like many poms, and enjoyed his company on more than one occasion. I don't for a moment think he is a nasty, derogatory person.

      OK, you'll find that pretty much all of the support for the use of the "joke" is along the lines of "I didn't find it offensive", and most of that is coming from men.

      There is a lot bound up in this.

      First up - Cheryl observes really well, it is about appropriateness, not offensiveness per se. Most of the peopel I know who commented on this in the negative (woman as well as men) can be ribald, offensive, and very funny. None of them are what I'd remotely called prudes. One of them used to do SEO for porn sites. So, this really is not about prudery, victorian values, political correctness.
      As Maxine I think cleverly observed, it's funny (and in the appropriate context in IS funny) *because* it is offensive.

      Sadly, high profile, successful, and increasingly ANY women in IT are becoming rarer. So when these women speak, I think it behoves us to listen. When smart, successful, far from prudish women say "I'd never ever go to a conference like that" - listen to them. Don't find reasons to criticize them. These women are telling us they find it makes them uncomfortable, that they feel it is inappropriate. The strength with which Cheryl put her analogy should demonstrate how uncomfortable. While you or I may not be offended, that is not the issue here - it's that other people are.

      But it is in some ways more serious than all this. I've had quite a bit to do with the laws relating to sexual discriminiation and harassment thorugh my role on boards of not for profits and the like.

      Here's a definition from Australia's Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission

      "Sexual harassment does not have to be direct or physical, it may include:
      ...
      suggestive comments or jokes

      ...

      [The behaviour] does not have to be directed specifically at you"

      Sorry to be a downer, but I am sure we'd all rather hear that in the current context, than from a lawyer we are brifing about an acton brought against us. In a workplace, repeated use of "humor" like this may well be a form of sexual harassment - if the people involved find it makes them feel uncomfortable.

      OK, I'll clam up now.

    3. LisaHerrod 73 months ago | reply

      LOL looks like everyone else has too.

      OK guys

      Thread closed...

      ;)

    4. druasmith 68 months ago | reply

      Patrick Griffiths Pro User says:

      It's not mysogynistic. It's not demeaning, either - it's not saying "that's all a woman is good for" or "I only see women as sexual objects"

      yes it is

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