New bombing reach into Israel from Lebanon

James Mackenzie says:

I'd like to see the companion piece, where the range of Israel's bombing capacity is marked. Also, I hate bombing of civilian targets, and anyone who says "my side is right to kill their civilians" is a terrorist. Hezbollah and the Israeli state both meet any definition of terrorist, except those definitions that make state actors exempt from moral rules.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Raiden256 says:

Wouldn't the companion piece just be like... the whole of Lebanon? I hear the Lebanese don't have any air defence to speak of, so Israel's F-16s pretty much have the run of the place.

Personally I reckon EVERYONE just needs to put away the weapons for a while. Hey I know it's a bit of a naive but you can't blame a guy for trying can you?
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

mimsong says:

Hey, it's a cherry-orange Katrina! I say we all get together at the Tyre Superdome and celebrate global arming.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

VeniceVandal    says:

Now map the reach of Israeli and US Destructive power.
Overlay all the other local and global firepower.
On the ground, it is civfilians who are suffering most.
While death threats rebound
everyone has a price for their cause.
Power to those who can negotiate with dignity and end the slaughter.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Kathryn Cramer    says:

Your turn.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

thudfactor    says:

Kathryn, a great infographic -- clear, tightly focused, and very interesting. And yet another great use of Google Earth data. Thanks for this!
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

AnomalousNYC    says:

A muc more relevent map would show the range of Israel's nuclear arsenal.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

RonenV.com says:

(Doesn't want to get involved, but)
..is Israel actively engaging their nuclear arsenal? Because Hezbolla seems to be using their rocket arsenal, which makes it 'relevant'
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Thundercross says:

There is a specific difference here. Israel is attacking Hezbollah's personelle and infrastructure. Hezbollah is attacking Israel's cities. Even during the attacks, Hezbollah has only targetted civilians. Yes, civilians have died from Israeli attacks, but the civilians aren't the target, and Israel regrets those casualties. But they can't just leave Hezbollah alone because of that.

For anyone who thinks this should be resolved with negotiation, that was already tried. Israel agreed to leave the border six years ago and that Lebanon's regular military would take up posts along the southern border. Israel kept their end of the bargain, Lebanon didn't. Hezbollah took the positions again, and thanks to international politics, Hezbollah had complete impunity. Now they don't. Israel has every right to do what they're doing.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Nargopolis    says:

"Targeting" is a relative term, dependent on the sophistication of the technology applied.

The current tally is telling: 200 Lebanese deaths to 24 Israeli "casualties":
www.nytimes.com/2006/07/17/world/middleeast/1 7cnd-mideast...

Though the intention of Hezbollah terrorists is to kill civilians, they seem to have difficulty hitting population centers at all. The geographic area depicted in the map above is very large, given the population their rockets are targeting. Israeli bombers, on the other hand, are much more precise. Because their planes are targeting infrastructure, they are hitting population centers and the collateral damage is naturally much, much higher. They also so seem to be targeting individual buildings and vehicles, which means that their mistakes are costly. Yesterday, an entire family of eight Canadians was killed in in an Israeli air strike: www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4050504 .html

Information graphics can be powerful sources of misinformation. Context is key.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

dan_stryker says:

I hope they destroy all of Hezbollah and Hamas... two terrorists gangs is all they are....
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

an_art_major says:

This map is upside down and backwards. Look at the compass in the lower left corner.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

Makes me wonder, if James Mackenzie was next to his desk in one of the Twin Towers on the morning of 911 would he still be discussing the "companion piece" or maybe there would be other people looking for his own pieces.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

spincycle    says:

lxhamid,

judging by your user icon, you have a fixation on 9/11, and it seems possible, even probable, that what what you're upset about is the fact that James (and others) condemn Israel, or at least some of its actions.

That's fine. You're welcome to be upset that people have opinions that differ from your own. But it seems odd to me that someone who is, apparently, upset about the deaths of innocents would then use a comment about the death of another innocent ("...maybe there would be other people looking for his own pieces") to make his point.

Oh, and James? I think your definition is correct, and agree with your asessment of which of the two parties meet that definition.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

tzvikac says:

Killing innocent people is always a bad thing, and so wars in general are bad. One of the main problems with attacking terrorists is that they do not value life, and so they attack from within innocent concentrations of people... they store their weapons in apartment buildings, they even hold babies in one arm and an RPG in the other. There have been over 30,000 civilian deaths resulting from Britain and the US actions in the latest war in Iraq, which was started for much less than the current Lebanon-Israel war. I guess by Mackenzie's remark that would make the US and Britain terrorists as well.. it would probably make most of the world terrorists if we take military events from the last 100 years. Fortunately, there are some laws and expectaions from sovereign countries.. a sovereign country is responsible for arms held/used within it.. Hence why Israel was right to blame Lebanon for the attacks by Hizballah... What would you want to do if France was firing these missiles across the channel hitting Canterbury and the surrounding areas with over 1000 missiles aimed at nothing but civilians and getting ever closer to London? or having a force in Bridgeport, Connecticut sending missiles to long island and getting closer to NYC ? Let's hope Israel gets rid of these terrorists before they "go west".
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

Spincycle,

I am afraid we have a difference of opinion about the term innocence. With your blindness and ignorance, people such as James and yourself support terror in a way far worst than the terrorists themselves, twisting the picture presenting terrorists as victims in the cover of human suffer.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

mosheeshel says:

James,Nargopolis and others... I obviously support one side in this story (being a member of that side and getting bombed by rockets).

There is no doubt that killing innocent civilians is bad. I'm the first one to be sorry when anyone dies or suffers from violence.

But here is the problem, no war machine (and the Israeli army is definitiley a fearsome war machine) is capable of being totaly accurate and decerning -> mistakes are always made and there will always be misses.

Let me ask you this question, if you were just sitting on your front porch at noon, and someone from the street would kidnap your child from the front yard in front of your eyes, and then start shooting toward you (lets even say he mostly misses and only hits your leg) - what would you do? wait for him to stop, or do something else - would you shoot back?

And just a little thing Nargopolis - how many of those 200 Lebanese are actually inocent and not armed terrorists? do you know? Obviously some (and maybe many) were inocent - but it is important to present an accurate picture and not use statistics to paint a picture that suits your view...
I promise you that the 24 Israelis were not shooting at any lebanese city during or before they were hit.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Hanan Cohen    says:

Another case where a government can't protect its citizens so it kills the citizens of the other side.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

To elaborate on Mosheeshel example: If there was someone shooting at your child but alas, this person was hiding behind a completely innocent person (lets make things nicer than they are), would you attack them both back or let your child die and protect human suffer ?

Yes, it is of course by far easier to protect remote human suffer that has no effect on yourself.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Kathryn Cramer    says:

Just updated the graphic to include more locations.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

drewzhrodague says:

Nice graphic, but is that a freznel pattern to the possible strike zone?

I sure hope our Arab and Israeli brothers stop this silly squabbling. Unfortunately, I believe the scab needs to be ripped-off before any true healing can begin. What that entails I am not so sure of, but I suspect it will be bad. X_(
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Kathryn Cramer    says:

Look at the big version: it gives a fuzzy gradient marked with approximate distances for relative distances from where the missiles are launched from, fuzzy because a lot of assumptions have to be made to make a graphic at all.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Nargopolis    says:

Just for the record, mosheeshel, I am not taking sides, here. I'm just noting that the infographic above leads the casual viewer to incorrect conclusions (I'm an interface designer by trade.) You're correct to point out that my statistical comparison lacks context, as well. It is possible that the vast majority of Lebanese casualties were armed combatants, and that more innocent Israelis have died than innocent Lebanese. That's highly improbable, however. Additionally, given compulsory military service in Israel, it's not possible to assume that none of the Israeli victims had not, in fact, been shooting at Lebanese cities in the past.

How I would personally react to situations of violence is complicated, and additionally bears no relation to how governments should react. We should be clear on the fact that Israel's strategic interests have little to do with two kidnapped soldiers and only something to do with the rocket threat to their citizens (24 deaths per 1000 rockets is not exactly nationhood-threatening, given an estimated total of 13,000 rockets, currently.)

The fact is, Hezbollah poses a long-term threat to Israel's security. With the kidnappings, a window of opportunity has opened, and the military is now acting on well-established plans to exact as much damage as it can on Hezbollah infrastructure as it reasonably can before a cease fire is established.

I do not fault them for this, necessarily. I just wish it could be done with less killing of innocents.

As I've noted, however, the situation is complicated. The image above (ominous cloud of doom hangs over half of Israel) is useless in almost any analysis of events.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

Hypocrisy = Nargopolis: "How I would personally react to situations of violence is complicated, and additionally bears no relation to how governments should react."

Hopefully Israel will finish the task of cleaning the area soon and the sun will return to Kathryn's picture :)
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Raiden256 says:

About 230 Lebanese people have been killed since then - the majority of them were civilians, but the toll includes about 30 soldiers. The number of Hezbollah militants killed is not known.

Twenty-five Israelis have died - 13 civilians and 12 members of the military.

nerd0 says:

230 dead Lebanese people, 25 dead Israelis... Sounds like somebody doesn't know how to wage a real war.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Lifecapture    says:

i like the quote,
'Evil prevails when good men fail to act'-

What is needed now is for the UN to decide what action is needed to stop this crisis before it gets any worse.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

jgpyke says:

Gee, that didn't take long for the Jew haters to show themselves, did it? Like the swallows returning to Capistrano...so predictable.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Raiden256 says:

Hmmm it also didn't take long for people to start name calling as soon as someone had a problem with the actions of the government/military of Israel.

Why is it that as soon as anyone is even remotely critical of Israel they become a 'Jew hater'?

I'm critical of the Australian government from time to time, does that mean that I hate myself now?
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

feral_patriot says:

How many people realize that the palestinians have never in history
been able to govern themselves peacefully?
How many people remember that back in like the 1950's or so Jordan kicked out the palestinians because they were nothing but trouble-makers?
How many people fully realize the far reaching history of the middle-east and understand that there are those "6th graders" who grew up and wanted a better life for their people,and the other "6th graders" who never did grow up and have dragged the rest of the world along kicking and screaming through their ever-lasting temper-tantrums and act like us or you're not in our club mentality.
AND,finally,how many people out there realize that Israel has both
civilian and military populace;Hezbollah is made up solely of civilians. who consider themselves to be soldiers.Excuse me, but please remind me of the name of their country that they have occupied and governed peacefully for decades or more, where they trained their military personnel;I forget...I think
I was in the bathroom then.
OH! And one more thing: When Israel left Gaza and left all the greenhouses intact,all the hospitals,all the businesses intact so that the palestinians would have jobs,businesses,infrastructure;does anyone remember what the palestinians did?
THEY STRIPPED EVEYTHING AND SOLD IT FOR TRASH...so they could whine to the world yet again and some more about how much they needed help because the big bad Israelis left them with nothing.
Israel is playing cowboys and muslims(palestinians,etc) much the same way as we played cowboys and indians/british(even though that was before cowboys as we know them).Palestinians don't have what Israel has because they're barbarians,true to the word.Nobody wants trouble-makers in their neighborhood,anywhere in the world.Countries all over the middle-east have given the palestinians the boot throughout history,but they all expect Israel to house them,give up her own territory to them and stand by and die because of them;all the while hoping that Israel would just die off and/or just go away.
Akin to having a sex offender in youre neghborhood and expecting some family with a bunch of little kids across town to take him in just to get him out of your neighborhood.
So,yes,Israel is killing civilians;but so have all the other countries that ever took them in and then kicked them out.
THERE IS A SPECIFIC NAME FOR THAT.IT STARTS WITH AN H.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Kathryn Cramer    says:

Just blocked "Dafydd Lloyd" (aka "iheartxeni") for trolling. And no, Daffyd. I'm not insecure. But you, darlin', are a troll. Bye bye.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

hazav says:

in response to James McKenzie: of course any civilian casualty is sad and horrible on BOTH sides...
But Israel left Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. Yet the terrorists of hamas and hezbollah are launching rockets on CIVILIANS from these territories on a daily basis. WHAT can Israel do to stop that??

Israel is just exercising its fundamental right to defend itself against these agressions ...they make every effort to spare civilian lives but these couards are hiding among civilians and do not wear any military uniforms

putting Israel and the Hezbollah on the same ground is highly suspicious or at best ridiculous
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

Raiden256, accusations of Israel by people such as James and yourself are so ridicules so much not supported by facts and by past events that it only make sense to think that behind them stands either an Ignorant an Arab or a Jew hater. Pick one.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Nargopolis    says:

Regarding my "hypocrisy," I did not mean to make a normative statement. I only meant to lay out how things actually are. Nations do not, in fact, respond to violence as individuals do. Their reactions are systematic and aggregate countless factors (strategy in the realm of the military, industrial, economic, political, cultural, etc.) People simply freak out and die or start shooting back or whatever emotional response it is one can dredge up in a oversimplified metaphor.

If you want to understand global dynamics, you cannot think this way. You cannot hope that some short-term military action will permanently subdue a ideology, or that one nation can "clean up" another.

There's a lot to know. The wishful thinkers above can start with asymmetric warfare: globalguerrillas.typepad.com/
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Raiden256 says:

Wow Ixhamid, I'm really not sure how to respond to that, apart from the fact that I'm not really sure what you're saying (you might want to look at your spelling and grammar)...

I was merely pointing out that this is probably not the right course of action if Israel wants to build stability in the region. I mean, it's only been like 30-35 years since Israel was at war with almost all of it's neighbours (i.e. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon) going to war with one of them now surely isn't going to settle things down is it? If anything it's going to buoy anti-israeli sentiment in the region and around the world. I mean, France and Russia have already issued statements supporting Lebanon.

Furthermore, thanks for proving my point, I was merely suggesting that maybe there was a better way to take out Hezbollah than reducing Lebanon to rubble, (Israel have done prisoner exchanges with terrorist groups in the past so that shouldn't be an issue - the real objective is taking out Hezbollah's rockets).

I was merely trying to question the fact that if Israel thinks that it's wrong for their citizens to be targeted by Hezbollah's rockets (which it is - Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation that needs to be stopped) then why is it OK for Israel to target Lebanese civilians and infrastructure? I would think that that is a perfectly reasonable question, yet it gets me labelled either an ignorant, an Arab, or a Jew hater.

P.S. And even though I'm not, what's wrong with being an Arab Ixhamid?

*edit* fixed minor spelling errors - pointed out by Ixhamid.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

lxhamid says:

"it's only been like 30-35 years since Israel was at war with almost all of it's neighbours"
Wow Raiden you are so knowledgeable, but you forgot to mention that the Jews were also at war with the Germans 65 years ago.

P.S You might want to use F7 (top row in the center) to check your spelling (second paragraph).
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

davidgendel says:

Raiden256 for someone who claims not to understand what people are saying you surely have a whole lot of shit to spit.
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Raiden256 says:

Yep, I sure do. If by "shit to spit" you mean pointing out that, "Hey, maybe bombing the crap out of each other isn't always the best course of action".

P.S. Ixhamid, doesn't that mean that Israel should be shelling Germany? India nuking Britain? Native Americans/Australians/Canadians/New Zealanders shooting (or throwing rocks) at other Americans/Australians/Canadians/New Zealanders?
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Thicks says:

The Smoking Monkey doesn't understand why people who suggest a course of action, other than violence, catch sh*t. Granted, Raiden may not have suggested a viable answer to the situation(if there is one) but just because he doesnt support the killing of innocents(on either side) doesnt make him a hater.

Why cant we all just grow hair on our foreheads and smoke cigarettes?
Posted 42 months ago. ( permalink )

Feralm says:

Has anyone mapped the Israeli attacks in a similar way? It would help provide some useful and balanced context.
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

Kathryn Cramer    says:

This is asymentric warfar, so you can't exactly map the situation in the same way. That Israel could destroy most of Lebanon is no secret. But Hezbollah is not synonymous with Lebanon. And Hezbollah, not Lebanon, as such is Israel's antagonist in this particular war.

However, I did annotate the map a couple days ago to show the anticipated Israeli ground and sea attacks. It is HERE. A close-up view is HERE.
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

jetaime2006 says:

I think that israeli's target is lebanon itself and not hezbollah only. With hundreds of lebanese who died. Why don't they asked the help of lebanon to cease hezbollah and not targeting the whole country. What can the US government do with this? Are they behind this? Why do US can't stop Israel in which they are allies? Israeli will not won. I think Hezbollah will still be visible. In war all are losers!
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

hmacca says:

Wow what a small country Israel is on this map! Poor little weak country surrounded by such a huge military power to the north. look at this map - maps.samidoun.org/lebanon_map_july12-Aug03.pd f
It tells a different story.
Posted 41 months ago. ( permalink )

Flickr Hive Mind says:

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Flickr Hive Mind, and we'd love to have this added to the group!

User > Kathryn Cramer

Add, your photo is important for our group
♥♥♥ !!!
Add a tag ( Flickr Hive Mind ) in your photos!!

his tag was found among the 50 most important
Posted 4 months ago. ( permalink )