TripLog/1040

Steve Patt says:

Martti,

A couple observations on your thoughtful comments:

The Apple design paradigm is about progressive learning, and removing items that are not used frequently to another area of the program.

As I explain above, that's a lot easier done if you have menus or drop-down menus. Without those, you need a button or icon or some way to get to that "other area of the program". That's why the gray + and "Edit" buttons are there below "Frequent Trips," and also why they are gray to indicate their special function. Other less used items (dates prior to yesterday and entry of tolls/parking) ARE in other areas of the program, i.e., not on the main screen), but again, a button is required on this screen to access them.

Things in the background should stay in the background, so why is the background vividly blue? Why is it not default?

First of all, if you look at this app on a real iPhone, I assure you it is not "vividly" blue. It is pale blue. As far as "default," there is no such thing. Apple apps which are "pure" databases (Contacts) are white, others (see Weather, for example) are dark blue, others (Notes) are manila, Clock is light-gray, Calendar is dark gray, Stocks a mixture of gray, light blue, dark blue, and gunmetal blue.

The reason white, gray, and black were rejected I describe above.

Finally, the "Clear" button on the main screen is just to erase a mistaken entry in progress (akin to the "X" button at the right of a text field), not a danger situation. The iPhone paradigm says if there is a danger situation, the entire button is red, and indeed, on the unseen log screen, if you use the Delete function to actually delete entries already in the log, then the all red button does make an appearance.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

ellikelli    says:

For me it's not simply the background color, it's the combination of everything. White, grey, blue, green red and darker blue... and the background blue is again different... and the > button on the lower right corner... some have glassy finish others are plain white... it looks all over the place just looking purely at the graphics of it.

I don't mean to diss the actual app and it's functionality, I'm sure it works fine and is optimized for usage on the iPhone so I won't even touch that. I think people here just think it could have been made to look a lot better. I certainly do. That's all.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

In case you didn't pick up on it, SOME of that color is color-coding. In order to avoid having to LABEL each entry as "Business," "Medical," etc., those categories are color-coded on this screen (and on the log screen as well).
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

noon3butm3 says:

You're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to say that Apple's UI is wrong and yours is right.

Also, This program might be new, but the look/design isn't. Sure, you just wrote it for the iPhone. Great. It looks like you took it from a palm program though. First impressions are important, and your app just ruined its first impression to a lot of people.

Dont forget to keep in mind who your users are. They bought an iPhone. Feel free to call your users "snobs" however, they are still users on a platform that you are targeting. Not that i expect you to have much success after your previous tirades, but thats not really the point.

Its great that you've been programming and coding for 20 years. Not so much when you still think the same way about programming as you did 20 years ago.

It's great that you thought your UI out. However, you are a single person. You coded this application. No one else coded it. Yet they are (or were) going to check it out. You have to look at things from someone else's perspective. It's great if you can do something in two taps, but if it takes a minute between each tap to figure out where to click (and then they get the "crap, was that the right place to click?" feeling because of unintuitive choices you've made), you've lost the purpose you were trying to create.

-Zach
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

janeylicious    says:

@Steve, I don't know why you're going on about using standard iPhone UI elements when you're abusing a lot of the standard iPhone UI elements in all your iPhone apps.

You may have been an ISV for longer than I've been alive, but that doesn't make you experienced in iPhone development and UI design by default. Not even close.

And while it looks like you "get" Palm UI design (I've owned many Palm devices over the years like a Treo and the TX pre-iPhone..and for that matter, I have plenty to bitch about in terms of Palm's OS X support and I bet a lot of former/current Palm users on a Mac have a lot to say about that too), I can't help but think you're going the wrong way with this iPhone app. Yes, it has everything a user would probably want without digging into menus, but even then it's not organized in the most logical way. I would LOVE a trip logging app for my iPhone but well..yours doesn't make that much sense to me, and some of it is just like "I'd never use it, why is it there and can I remove it?".

The colors you go into detail about are what I hate most about it. Especially your comment about the manila color of Notes...guess why? There is zero significance to the blue you chose to be the background color of this app. Zero. Why is "Save Data" red? Why is "Clear" black? (I read your reasoning, and I still don't find it sufficient.) Why is the entire button of the "color-coded" categories for trips one color, and have you considered how useless some of that is to certain colorblind people?

And please. If UI design is about the user and not the interface (hint: it's about both), you have the whole idea wrong, and I'm actually shocked at the idea that someone that's been doing this for so long doesn't get it yet. If Apple doesn't do anything about it, I bet you would see an impact in the number of users interested in your app when the App Store launches..when a better-designed competitor is available. It's not all about looks, it's about usability AND looks.

Lastly, your attitude here I could understand because of the onslaught of "my eyes!!! ughh!!", but I don't think it's the best way to go about replying to criticism. Why not read over what everyone else has pointed out to you and see if you can make the changes? A lot of comments here are free UI design tips for you and I'm surprised you're just being defensive over your design instead of taking advantage of a whole bunch of people - some of whom do have plenty of development/design experience and/or are fellow iPhone developers - who don't want to see this kind of thing and were willing to spend the time to talk about it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

noon3butm3: You're fighting a losing battle if you're trying to say that Apple's UI is wrong and yours is right.

I don't know where I said that Apple's UI is wrong. I did say that the Contacts app illustrates rather nicely that entering lots of data is a tough problem, and can involve many screens, and when it's an app, unlike Contacts, which is designed to accept data entry every day, the problem becomes even tougher.

It's great if you can do something in two taps, but if it takes a minute between each tap to figure out where to click (and then they get the "crap, was that the right place to click?" feeling because of unintuitive choices you've made), you've lost the purpose you were trying to create.

Do you seriously think that any user is going to take a minute to figure out where to click, even the first time they use the software, much less the second? The interface is designed from top to bottom: enter the data, enter the mileage, enter the destination, enter the purpose, click "Save Data". Doesn't really require a genius to figure it out.

By the way, if you want to see someone take a minute to enter data every time, go enter a new appointment, even without a Repeat or Notes, and see how long it takes. Again, I'm not saying I could do better.

janeylicious: you're abusing a lot of the standard iPhone UI elements in all your iPhone apps

That's a bold statement. Care to give an example or two?

some of it is just like "I'd never use it, why is it there and can I remove it?"

Other than the option to record mileage for multiple cars, what? I acknowledge that some people may only want to record business mileage, and certainly the option to remove unneeded categories is something we've thought about, although the fact that they're there reminds you that you can get a deduction just for driving to the doctor's office, which most people don't know. Someone could say they "only" want to record business, and then we could remove them all, but all we'd gain is a little more "white space" (ok, "blue space" :-) ). The mileage picker doesn't need to be any wider, so at best it could be centered (which would then misalign it with all the other elements on the page, so that doesn't seem desirable in any case).

Why is the entire button of the "color-coded" categories for trips one color

Because it's a "one-item segmented control". Unfortunately, Apple only provides horizontal segmented controls, not vertical ones; this is in some sense the replacement for that non-existent element. Perhaps you consider that an "abuse" of Apple's UI elements; I consider it an enhancement. Incidentally, the data segmented control across the top is also an enhanced control, although you can't tell looking at the picture. Apple's standard segmented controls have strange behavior. If there are two segments, any tap (on either side) switches the selected segment (i.e., tapping on a selected segment deselects it). On the other hand, if there are three or more segments, then tapping on any segment selects that segment; if it's already selected, the tap does nothing. In this app, that's a problem. Because if you've already selected "Other" (the label changes to the actual selected date, incidentally, so you get visual feedback of the date you just selected with the date picker), then if you want to switch to another "other" date, you would have had to figure out to tap on "Today" or "Yesterday" and then back to "Other" again. We modified (subclassed) the UI element so that a tap on a selected element is still detected and acted on, allowing the user to go from one "other" date to another "other" date.

and have you considered how useless some of that is to certain colorblind people?

The entire app works fine. The buttons in question (categories) turn darker when selected, as all segmented controls, and that can be seen regardless of color. Of course the color coding of the entries in the log itself can't be seen, but the totals, which are all that really matters, will still give the relevant answer.

it's not organized in the most logical way.

As I just wrote above, it's organized from top to bottom in the way a user can enter the data (except with frequent trips, where they just touch in that section and then Save Data). I fail to see how a top-to-bottom design for data entry is not "the most logical way."

A lot of comments here are free UI design tips

Actually there have been precious few constructive comments. I certainly appreciate those (such as yourself) who offer comments in that spirit. As for the others, well, no comment.

Finally, one problem for developers, unclarified by Apple to date, is the issue of "try before you buy" which was always possible with Palm apps. I'm not sure how we're going to deal with that, because I gather (believe it or not, it isn't actually clear) that, when this app and others are for sale on iTunes, your only alternative will be to buy it; there is no "30-second preview" as for iTunes music. At least that's my assumption. For those here who are actually interested in this app, I encourage you to read the manual as a "pseudo-try-before-you-buy," at least the best we can do at this time. www.stevenscreek.com/iPhone/triplog.htm is the URL which, incidentally, can be accessed directly from a button on the second screen (the log screen) of the app.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mattyohe says:

Steve Patt: I don't want to go into [REDACTED] territory, but you made a statement that I have a question about:

"[TripLog/1040] does, however, have the advantage for iPhone owners that starting July 11, they'll be able to use it to record their deductible (or reimbursable) trip mileage"

The application deadline was today and yet you seem sure of yourself. Have you already received approval?

Also, in regards to your question about "try-before-you-buy", Macworld has a podcast (iPhone #124) where I believe chockenberry alludes to uploading a free (yet handicapped) version of your software, and a full version that has a price tag attached.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

dssstrkl    says:

Or you could use iphonemiles.com/

Yeah, its a webapp, but put together a hell of a lot better than TripLog. I doubt it would take much to port that UI to a native app.

Just saying.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

somefool ∴ Matt    says:

@Steve Patt

Actually there have been precious few constructive comments. I certainly appreciate those (such as yourself) who offer comments in that spirit. As for the others, well, no comment.

To be honest, I dont even know where to start. The best i can suggest is scrap the whole UI and start again form scratch. Maybe get a someone whose never used it to try out non-functional UI demos (as in the Apps not functional, not the UI). And keep removing stuff until you get the minimal on one screen.

I can see my self mis-pressing all over the place on that 'UI' and getting very frustrated. That said, Id probably never download it in the first place as theres bound to be similar more useable apps or *even* web apps.

Final words: Dont be too precious, youre not making this app for you but your users.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

thehardsix says:

Steve: I don't think you understand that this isn't a debate. You've written an app that doesn't adhere to the iPhone HIG, and unsurprisingly, is a usability nightmare.

You continually state that your app isn't that hard to use, but I sit here staring at it and I don't know where to start. Your interface isn't intuitive, and it isn't iPhone, and I will be shocked if Apple lets this on the app store. It's too cluttered, the colors are garish, the UI elements are inconsistent, and the layout, contrary to what you believe, isn't logical. That iPhone miles web app up above? The UI there is correct. Minimal clutter, reasonable color choices, consistent UI and a logical, top-to-bottom layout. I know exactly how to use it within 3 seconds of looking at it. I know you think you've adhered to the top-to-bottom paradigm, but you've rendered that useless by missing the horizontal paradigm completely. Some of the information on that screen should be split out into multiple horizontal views. You are abusing iPhone UI elements. That's an improper use of a UIButtonTypeDetailDisclosure, mostly because it's totally unclear. Just because it's a standard Apple UI element doesn't mean it can be used anywhere and be correct.

Regardless of whether or not this was originally a Palm app, it looks like a Palm app. You really do need to start from scratch, the UI you have now is unsalvageable.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

dssstrkl: iTripMiles looks great. Unfortunately it doesn't record Destination (REQUIRED by the IRS), it doesn't record tolls/parking (an additional deduction linked to mileage driven), and it doesn't have a "frequent trips" concept, requiring the user to type "Drove to branch office" or "Post Office" every time they do so. It also uses the incorrect paradigm of "odometer start/odometer finish". Why incorrect? Because if you're not driving the car 100% of the time on business (or other) deductible miles, then the previous finish is not the next start (assuming it remembers that), and you have to take note of the starting odometer when you enter the car, and the finishing odometer when you finish the trip (and even if you do, that will require entering TWO 5-digit numbers). Using the trip odometer on your car, which every car has, is a lot easier! True, you could forget to reset it, but that's no different than forgetting to record the starting odometer reading.
It records "Driver," for what reason I don't know, since it has nothing whatsoever to do with IRS requirements, but doesn't allow recording of multiple cars, which does.
Finally, it makes an equivalence (sizewise) between the Save and the Cancel buttons, as if they are equally likely to be used. That may LOOK nice and symmetrical, but it isn't properly functional.
It does look nice, though, no doubt about it.

dssstrkl: You are abusing iPhone UI elements. That's an improper use of a UIButtonTypeDetailDisclosure, mostly because it's totally unclear.

It is "disclosing further details" about the log, which it appears to the right of. In this case, "further details" is not further details about those specific entries, but the entire log. That hardly seems like an "abuse" of a UI element.

Let me restate something I wrote above: I am not claiming there is no room for improvement, refinement, or even redoing of the interface. Quite possibly there is. But I seriously think that people are are misestimating the usability of this app. We may have to go the route of having a free, limited version (records only 10 entries or whatever) for people to try and see that for themselves. Because so much of what has been said here is just completely off base if you have the actual application in front of you and actually use it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

cdevroe says:

Maybe this could be a screenshot for "How Not to Build an iPhone Application". Wow.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Dunstan    says:

Where is the NUDGE button?


Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

joeracer    says:

*sigh* this is truly shitty UI.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mathieutozer200    says:

My Favorite part was "One more thing which seems to have everyone's knickers in a twist - the background color. First of all, so much of the screen is covered with other elements it's a pretty minor feature anyway."
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

giles_bowkett says:

Dude, developer guy - don't bother paying any attention to critics. Either incorporate their proposed changes or ignore them. A few of them are speaking to you, and can only be answered with action; the rest are only speaking to each other anyway.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Matt Moriarity says:

i will start my admitting that this app's purpose is not something i have any need for, but i must say that if i did, i would be much more inclined to write my own app than purchase this one. i just could never bring myself to use this on a daily basis. it is so disorganized, i can't even tell where to start.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

xekonic says:

"Let me restate something I wrote above: I am not claiming there is no room for improvement, refinement, or even redoing of the interface. Quite possibly there is."

Then stop defending it and make improvements rather than arguments.

When it comes down to it, you built it so of course how it's used makes sense to you. As it is, however, it doesn't make sense to anyone else.

Whether you choose to accept or ignore what was said here will ultimately be reflected in your applications sales/usage.

Now, as an aside, you're either doing genius marketing, getting your application noticed for (whether you think it or not, at least 100 other people do) not the hottest ui out there, only to take in all the comments and make an update to its design. In which case, I am sure there would be followup comments to the new ui, etc. This, of course would get you double the publicity, and probably more users at the start than you would have had had you made an app with a UI that made sense.

If that wasn't your plan, than I defer to my statement about sales and usage.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

gaklic says:

@everyone:
Yes, it looks bad, but let him try it out himself with a beta group. He will get feedback and who knows, it may be the next big thing.

@steve
Don't argue with people trying to give you design advice, especially when some of them seem like they really know their stuff. Accept change, adapt. Nothing is ever finalized. And appearance is a big thing with any product, so do take into consideration these comments. Most people on flickr are artsy and are opinionated yes but do have some good ideas. Just be open to change and listen to advice, you'll be amazed at the results.

Best of luck with your new product!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

GregEh says:

@Steve - Let us know if/when Apple approves your app for the store. Because they won't if it looks like that.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

camflan says:

Why on earth are you using rotating elements for something you could just drop in a big text field for? I guarantee it's easier and quicker to input with the phone keypad style keyboard than what you have there, not to mention it would look 1000x better.

It really looks like you built an iPhone app without ever using a Mac, understanding Apple and iPhone HIG, and really wanted to just play with the standard UI elements. I think you've got one of each on there!

Scrap the design, scrap your shitty attitude, redesign both and have a great day.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

benn says:

I think that it doesnt follow the apple ui guidelines (not that i've read them, just what i've observed). But I don't think it matters. He'll probably make tonnes of money selling this app and most people won't know or care that it could work a tonne easier.

Maybe in a years time he (or someone else?) will put out a mileage log that does use the UI guidelines, casual users will have adapted to the expected apple behaviour - and so will prefer to use the HIG-compliant tool.

For now though - it's like ebay (or windows vista). Cheap, cheerful and ugly, but people don't care.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Shane O' says:

Clusterfuck.

@Steve Patt
A simple spreadsheet app could have sufficed for this monstrosity. I fail to see how accosting the user is going to help them organize their data or enrich their lives. This is the exact antithesis of the iPhone concept, and my biggest fear, TEAL! Add to that a lack of symmetry, and voila.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

flightlessltd says:

@steve patt, don't worry...

just make the light blue background a reflecty gradient, and then colour, reflect and glow all of the buttons - then all these ui designers will go back to their photoshop-design-wars :)
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Mona N. says:

i literally have not laughed this hard in a long time
thank you so much for this thread lol
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

steve.hubbard says:

Ironically prophetic:

"PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in."

Ed Colligan
CEO
Palm Inc.

The Pageman    says:

maybe there's a way you can interface this into something like MIT's Reality Mining Project :)
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

jyoteen    says:

That freaking is hideous. You don't need the odometer looking thing, the background color is that of a MS Windows 1.0 clock app box. The type is too small and there is no hierarchy.

You certainly left out the 'user' and the 'interface' in user interface.

Congrats. This is what happens when programmers pretend to be designers and call themselves software designers.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

nate_marsh    says:

Wow, what a bunch of mean/pointless/uniformed comments. It's pretty easy to look at a screenshot of an application that most of us will never use and assume that it is unintuitive/bad design. My dog cannot use Photoshop but I am not going to write down all his thoughts on improvement and design a special version of Puppyshop for him.

I am impressed with the time that Steve has put into trying to fit this app to a specific need. It might not be a breathtaking design, but nearly all the "helpful advice" has been worse than meaningless. If you are going to so harshly malign something, make the effort give some examples of how it should done.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Rick Casey says:

Steve, People are hard, especially on the internet. All that matters is if your end users are being served and are happy with your product.

Competition will drive the space and if someone develops a iPhone HIG compliant product with a similar feature set, then I suppose things will have to change.

I appreciated your post describing your reasoning behind the design of your UI and felt that it was well thought out. Your user base is well served by your work.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Craig Rairdin says:

I've read all 130 comments to date, including Steve's replies. I wasn't going to comment but ...

It's abundantly clear from some of the comments that you guys aren't iPhone developers. You describe attributes of the iPhone HIG that just don't exist, and preferred behaviors that aren't available on the iPhone. The most obvious flaw is the recommendation that this app be shown to lots of users and critics to help design the UI -- if you were an iPhone developer you'd know that they're all under NDAs and it's very complicated to set up an iPhone to run an app as of this date. And when you do, there's no promises that you'll ever be able to use it as a real iPhone (it becomes a development device only). Not a lot of beta testers will sign up for that.

My second enormous point is that this app is completely intuitive. I can't imagine people who are smart enough to figure out how to leave comments here would take longer than 15 seconds to completely master this program and all of its nuances. Just look at the screen shot. Enter data and save it. Select a previous trip and re-use it. It couldn't be easier.

Finally, it's worth saying that the iPhone is a pretty crappy device for most third-party apps. There's no handwriting recognition nor tactile keyboard, so data entry sucks big time. There's no clipboard so copying data between apps is impossible/difficult. The multi-touch interface is great for pinching and stretching and scrolling, but the two-fingered scrolling is completely not intuitive. (The last observation is based on about a year of supporting a Web-based iPhone app and talking to customers who haven't used a MacBook so they're unfamiliar with multi-touch. We had to re-design our app to remove the two-fingered scrolling because of comments not unlike this thread -- completely uninformed, ignorant people spouting off about things they knew nothing of.)

Steve, I say ship this bad boy just like it is and watch the $$$ roll in and screw these elitist weenies who have nothing better to do than criticize other people's hard work. I don't even track my mileage but I'm going to buy a copy as soon as I can.

Craig Rairdin
President
Laridian, Inc.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

somefool ∴ Matt    says:

@nate_marsh My dog cannot use Photoshop but I am not going to write down all his thoughts on improvement and design a special version of Puppyshop for him.
I call Godwins law on that one.


@Craig Rairdin There's no handwriting recognition nor tactile keyboard, so data entry sucks big time
lol, I was fooled for a while but nice parody, the copy/paste stuff is particularly funny.

Also if you were an iPhone developer you'd know that they're all under NDAs - YET we see these screen grabs, funny as...

Keep 'em coming "Craig", if that IS your real name :-D

Laridian does bible software hmm? Interesting...
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

wd40nyc says:

I'm not an iPhone developer (I'm not even a UI designer) so I apologize if this breaks some of the constraints of the iPhone DE.

I've seen a lot of people say a lot of things so instead of saying I'd rather show. I don't know a ton about UI design as I mentioned but I thought this was at least worth posting in hopes of continuing this discussion. I apologize for the low quality, I was quick and dirty with the PS wand.

img74.imageshack.us/img74/3382/triplogfs8.jpg
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

wd40nyc says:

oh and I meant to offer some explanation:

One of my major issues with your design was the lack of a strong grid. I tried to grid it up a little better. I trimmed frequent trips down to QuickTrips, but obviously you get the point and can think of something better that fits on one line. This may be a misunderstanding of the way the app works, but it seems to me the $Spent button is more related to the + and Edit buttons so I did a quick and dirty job mimicking the look of the other buttons. I took the green off because although I get the association with money it made me think it was associated with Santa Clara Valley Association. In retrospect maybe the solution is to just change the color of Santa Clara (unless I am misunderstanding and they are SUPPOSED to be assocaited). Also, if the $Spent button simply brings up how much money you've spent, perhaps just displaying that number would work. Or maybe the text field of the button is how much money you've spent and when you hit it it gives you more info. I disagree about having Save be red. It DOES say danger to me. And how pissed would you be if you filled everything out and then hit CLEAR on accident? It SHOULD be red, it IS dangerous (though I know it's not as dangerous as originally thought). The bottom sector is simply informational, and is not part of data entry so I separated it. This does use a little more real estate, but I've pushed some other elements in other ways to save it (like at the top) so I make up for it. I chose a black background because I think it's sleeker, and also I think it matches the Odometer graphic MUCH better.

I'm not sure if this is better or not, frankly I'd just like to get a discussion going that's not so vicious and really is about exchanging ideas. I happen to think my design is better, but I'd love to hear why not if it's not.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

neonsilk    says:

Finally, it's worth saying that the iPhone is a pretty crappy device for most third-party apps. ...
Man, you're sure going to be a strong competitor in the iPhone app market. Have fun "screwing us elitist weenies." (You make bible software?)

Steve Patt: there is a "standard" iPhone background -- it's the grey pinstripes you see in the Settings app. I put standard in quotations because more apps don't use it than do, but I still think it's the equivalent of the old Aqua pinstripes.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

tedkulp    says:

I have to admit, I find this entire thread is REALLY poor taste. Jesus, people... 100+ unqualified comments from people that don't do a lick of iPhone development. I had to stop reading after awhile because it was just absurd how ignorant people on the internet can really be.

At least he's writing an app and trying to make it work. On Friday there will be apps that work and look exactly like what Apple has made, and people that try different things. There is going to be a lot of experimentation for the next few months.

All of you, get off your high horse, download the SDK and write something of your own... or shut up. Obviously, some people have legitimate constructive criticism, but most of you are trolls to the nth degree. Grow up.

Steve Patt is now the underdog in my eyes. I wish him success and at least trying to get something out there for his customers.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

D.M. Cook    says:

Steve: I doubt you'll read this but seriously -- look at iPhone apps. Look at their spacing, their fluidity, their simplicity.

The iPhone is not designed the way a Palm is.

It is designed to make sense.

If that means taking extra time to enter information, or even to take extra time to develop, then so be it. But a good interface should NEVER require you to write MORE THAN SIX PARAGRAPHS to tell us what it does.

I absolutely do not care what your credentials are: you are not an iPhone developer in my eyes. Until your software addresses the needs of iPhone users (not business professionals used to the absurdity that is WinMobile), it will NEVER SELL. Please understand this.

(And I don't consider this a "high horse". I am not a developer. I am a user. I am a target. And we are telling you something. You can ignore it, or you can use it as constructive criticism. That's all any of us are asking-- and I don't think that's unfair.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mini-d    says:

I didn't know what the app was for until I read most of the messages on this thread, funny.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

wd40nyc says:

Also, I want to point out that I think a lot of you are being completely unfair. Saying things like "But a good interface should NEVER require you to write MORE THAN SIX PARAGRAPHS to tell us what it does." is ridiculous because he spent those paragraphs explaining WHY he made the design choices he did. You can't argue with him and punish him for arguing back.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

kapowaz    says:

Clearly this software was written in vain; we're all going to be travelling on foxback by this time next year.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

gardnerjr    says:

Better?



Buttons should look like buttons. Your white buttons look like white text fields.

Divide up the sections. I'm still not clear on how the frequent part works. if you click one, does it fill in the top part? i assume that's what it does.

I'd also change the "business" color because otherwise it looks like the other buttons, where the 3 other colored ones make that more obvious that they are categories and not actions.

Changing the layout of the bottom table would make it possible to get your spent column in there too. You could also abbreviate distance in the header and make that column smaller to get more of destination visible, if necessary.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

ljmacphee says:

I have done cell phone development and I think it is an excellent user interface.

The interface is in keeping w/ the built in Apple applications. Confusing the users is never a good thing. Consistency is important.

It is totally obvious how to use the application and everything you need is right there.

And it is a tool anyone who free lances will need.

Excellent app!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

sglewis says:

Yelling at users won't sell software. I know we're a pain in the ass, posting negative comments and such - but we're the fervent ones, the early adopters, the vocal minority, the platform champions... oh and by the way, the ones most likely to buy software that isn't necessarily needed for our jobs but we think maybe saves a little time and looks cool. We're your (potential) best friends, and absolutely your (potential) worst enemies.

And, most importantly, since we're followed a Gruber post on Flickr that he linked to from his blog, a much higher percentage of us are probably iPhone owners, Mac lovers, software buyers, UI designers, programmers, font fanatics, etc. We're the ones that are planning how early to get to the Apple Store on Friday to buy the 3G one not because it's 3G necessarily, but because it's new. We're likely on our 5th or 6th iPod, we probably bought iPod games from iTunes because it's cool, we'd probably buy a bunch of crap from NBC if that promise is what it took to get their shows back in iTunes, and we probably buy most of our music rather than download it.

Oh yeah - many of us have mileage expenses to worry about too.

Look, the iPhone is popular not because of anything you think. It's popular because it's beautiful, easy, functional, and now has great software coming out. They don't all have to mimic Apple apps - look at that keynote again to see some unique UI. Your app doesn't look beautiful, and therefore we don't want it. It REALLY is that simple. It should be two screens, or scrollable (like contacts and calendar entries) so the UI can be beautiful and easier to discern. Also, some of us still find scrolling super cool.

By the way, your usability stinks if users say it does. You complain that many of us aren't even developers. True. We're consumers. You should be three times as worried about us hating it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

siegling says:

Maybe I'm crazy, but I wonder if most people are recording "medical" or "charity" expenses frequently that need front page UI space.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Andy Croll    says:

On the accompanying SvN article to this, where they make some defence of Mr. Patt's design choices, a lady named Raphael Campardou has come up with this.

It's a first draft, done in an hor by a non-iPhone developer, who was willing to put her money where her mouth was. I think she's been rather successful.

I'm gonna link again to it...
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

dlev1979 says:

I actually don't like your UI, but...see? this is what you get for designing for iPhone (not even mac!) users. Agree: Utter poor taste in 99% of the comments.

let the jobso do it all, he'll be getting most of your hard earned money anyway...they'll love it even if he writes some tetris and you won't have to take this crap.

...heck! why the *#*$*@& do you even code a "utility" app for iPhone users?!?! those 2 words don't belong in the same sentence. These guys are not consultants...the only trips they do are getting high and drolling over Garage Band, and they don't care to record them!

go and do some app for Nokia instead, or even RIM...they freaking OWN the cellphone market....and their users don't loose focus because of shiny objects...hahaha.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

kurt_kroon says:

By the way, your usability stinks if users say it does. You complain that many of us aren't even developers. True. We're consumers. You should be three times as worried about us hating it.

—sglewis

mrghemp says:

Make lemonade...

Steve:

You have a golden opportunity to swing this whole ordeal to your advantage. Good, bad, right or wrong... you've received a lot of, mostly negative, attention for your application's design. This has gone beyond being a interesting tidbit on someone's blog, and has become a story... thousands of people have viewed your design, many blogs have wrote about it... it's likely to have a short live but it's a story reaching thousands of people none the less.

You can play a deciding roll in how the story ends. So begin with that end in mind... what if the end of the final story was about "how an application that was the de facto example for how not to design for the iPhone, was redesigned and is now hailed as the as standard by which the UI of iPhone applications are judged".

Yeah, it's a lofty goal, but if you are willing to let go of everything else and focus on an end goal like the one above... amazing things might happen for your little app.

A few suggestions on how to get there:

- Humble yourself and say to the community... I've got a lot of valid reasons for designing my app the way I did, but the backlash my design has received has sent a clear message that I need to rethink things.

- You have a pool of design talent reading this... tap into it... perhaps create a contest to redesign the UI... I suspect there are a lot of designers itching to make it better, if for no other reason than to say they did.

- Perhaps take a few days off... let the bad mojo of many of these posts fade, and think about the hand full that are constructive... then make a redesign... present it to this site for further feed back... perhaps it's just mockups (rather then reprograming the application)... then repeat several times... the process and the final product are likely to be something better then anyone might guess.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Brady Bone says:

@ Steve Patt

"And if you want to do it on one screen, as we did, things are going to get a bit crowded. That's life."

The iPhone is not limited to 480 pixels in height. Scrolling on the iPhone is a thing of beauty. And your UI could benefit from not trying to "pack it all in".

This idea of getting everything within "one screen" may be a carry over from designing for Palm. Scrolling on a Palm was terrible even in the simple Notes app.

You speak of the user needing to be fast with the app. The fact that you say "things are going to get a bit crowded" should be an indication that speed may not be a result of the UI and that you may need to rethink the layout.

20 years (10 years handheld) of software development means little. I know people in my field that have equal or more years of experience but this fact does not ensure that they are experts nor does it ensure that they are really great at what they do. The proof, some say, is in the pudding.

- Bone
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

a fresh {P}erspektiv says:

Wow that redo of the interface look soo much better! That's all we're asking for. Seriously, Steve, you knew deep down inside that this was not up to par with what an iPhone app should look like. All that this person did was look at other iphone apps and lay yours out in the same manner. If you can code the program you should have enough sense to have done this from the start. Shame on you for trying to justify yourself.

We're Mac people, who buy Mac products because of the Mac way in which they look and work. It's that simple. It doesnt matter if you don't understand it, it's the way we are, we a pay a premium for it and expect something outstanding. I'm a Mac snob....that's right, I said it! I'm proud of my OS and the associated products because they're cool, they make my life better and make sense to me. So, as a developer, if you target us, you better deliver a product that, at the very minimum, delivers the standard Mac experience. If you don't, you'll never see the inside of my home.

The biggest factor you forgot, is that, if we just wanted usability & function, we wouldn't own an iPhone.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

iPhone2 says:

dude... wtf??/ I'm about to cry blood
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Outsanity Photos    says:

if you actually make this, you will be banished from the digital world as we know it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

AurélienS    says:

Oh wow, the redesign by Raphael Campardou is impressively good. It looks like she has used an iPhone before! :D
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

funwithstuff says:

Ignoring the UI, a functionality comment. If it's important to know the start point and the destination of a journey, plus the distance travelled, isn't this a perfect application of the location-based functionality in the SDK? Your program could automatically discover the name of any previously visited location as soon as you arrive. If the program was running, common trips could be recorded automatically.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mattyohe says:

Well, it looks like it made the cut: att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid =123120&...
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

julian-    says:

Yep, it's on the App Store:

phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/vi ewSoftware?i...
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Five Minute Argument says:

Steve, I haven't read each and every comment yet - hopefully I'll have enough time later. I have read your detailed initial post, and some of your other responses. I'd just like to make a few simple points - you're totally free, of course, to do whatever you like with them, I just think you might appreciate some (intended to be) friendly suggestions.

1. Remove the "Latest" label because it's unnecessary and ruins the button layout. If your users are as regular as you say they are, I don't think this will be a problem.

2. If absolutely necessary, you could also change the dates in the 'latest' list itself to relative values such as 'yesterday', 'last Tues', etc.

3. Align 'Destination', 'Purpose', and 'Frequent Trips' consistently - either all left or all right.

4. Consider removing or resizing the odometer. OK, this is the controversial one, but I really don't see the need for it when space is at such a premium. Although it does look quite nice, I think its presence is merely causing degradation in the overall look and feel.

I think, however usable the interface is, some of these minor points (e.g. alignment especially) merely serve to make it look very amateurish and, as mentioned by many apple users, this is likely to turn a lot of them off.

Cheers,

- Bobby
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Carlo Z says:

It's a bit better than the old MP3 tool which to me is still the high water mark in bad UI design.

www.flickr.com/photos/czottmann/2654510219/

I love the screenshot/mockup posted by Andy Croll, by the way. Lovely layout!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Thib Hash says:

Your UI needs tweaking even in the most basic way. One thing that really needs to be worked on is alignment.

1. The way that the headers, "Date", "Distance", "Destination" align, it looks visually out of whack with the information below. I understand what you did there. The header is centered according to column and then the data is either left aligned (by column), or right aligned (by column). Visually, it's disturbing and gives a very unkempt fussy look.

2. The labels of "Destination," "Purpose", "Frequent Trips" needs to be graphically aligned. How is going to be something you need to work out. It's very uneven right now.

3. And then visually, the rounded text box with the data "Apple Cupertino" and "Consulting" looks misaligned with the larger text box below. I don't know if you know something about typography but here's a tip: something that is mathematically aligned does not necessarily mean it's visually interpreted as aligned. So for instance, the rounded text box may actually be mathematically x pixels long and so is the rectangular box below. But, visually the human eye does not interpret it as such and it looks misaligned.

If you can offer a nominal sum, you might want to consult someone used to doing User Interface designs. The person could give you great professional advice and you are not committed to employing them long term, just about an hour or so. I think it'll be worth it. Right now, the application looks unfortunately unappealing. It doesn't look welcoming to use.

I speak not from experience of programming but mostly from experience of using computers as an everyday consumer. However, I have dabbled in communication and design primarily in writing and graphics.

Good luck!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

peylow says:

If I had created the application I would have used UITabView to create tabs for grouped functionality. Also selecting a type would be done just as you select the type of a phone number for a contact, by displaying a second list. By looking at the applications Apple provide on a default iPhone it is obvious that a screen seldom have more than half a dozen user controls.

Overall even if there are rationales for the design decisions; none is "because existing iPhone app x do something similar", that is the rationale hammered by the documentation provided by Apple, and even more so at WWDC 2008. Which means the user will have to relearn a completely new working scheme for a single application. No prior experience can be re-use.

And of the currently 17 available applications in the Finance category; this one is by far the most expensive (almost three times as much as the second runner ups). And also by far the one looking most alien to the applications Apple pre-load on the phone.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Thib Hash says:

wd40nyc has got it right! One of the basic fundmentals of interface designs and layout is having an underlying grid. One of my comments was about alignment and that is a comment about having a grid.

wd40nyc's quick rendition is a much more visually appealing design than what is currently offered. Bravo, wd40nyc!

An even better re-do of the layout is the one posted by Andy Croll.

Please do consult a professional UI person. It shouldn't cost too much money to consult for 30 minutes to 1 hour.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

wd40nyc says:

thanks Thib, although I agree the further renditions are better. I'm glad someone took a look though! At this point though I don't even think Steve needs to consult with a professional, he's had it done for free (referring to the last one, not mine). I am very curious to see Steve's response to these posts, I hope he's still following this.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

digital_current says:

This is poor design. Period.

The redesigns offered here--some by persons who are neither developers nor UI experts--are clearly superior. This alone is damning evidence of the terribly poor quality of the original design.

Steve's explanations do not excuse or explain the UI. When valid, they merely explain the reasoning behind WHAT is presented. They do not offer any convincing arguments regarding HOW it is presented.

Lastly, to Steve and others who have claimed that non-developers are somehow unqualified to judge UI: nonsense. I do not need to be an application developer to judge good application UI design, any more than I need to be an artist in order to appreciate the difference between a Van Gogh and graffiti.

Steve, normally I would limit my comments to the design of your app. But since in your responses you have cited your 20 years of developer experience, and denigrated some commenters here and iPhone users in general as elitist, I will say this: clearly your 20 years of experience have taught you little about effective UI design, and even less about customer relations.

Good luck with your App store efforts. I've reviewed what's available today (at App Store launch), and can honestly say that the three applications your company offers have remarkably inferior user interface designs, compared to the other 497 applications on offer.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Ozzybeef says:

I think this is a great app.
As a salesman on the road I would use this application a lot.
Currently it doesn't take me long to record trip info but it takes a long time to organize it and total it up.
Most of the comments here are in poor taste from people who wouldn't use this app even if it looked different.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

dacresni    says:

I would like to aggree with the people who've been pointing out the VALUE of this feedback. I am also having problems believe you use the odomiter as an imput device. as a Display element, i think its quite clever. keep that centered at the top, smaller and non interactive. You wont realize how much uglier this could have been untill you see the input screen of the athletic calculator damit man, there's a Keyboard for that!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

Silus Grok    says:

Amen to Martti (and, truthfully, Jaxn).
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

sonci    says:

i admit there are so many comments that i didn't read them. but i AM a ui designer and shit like this is awesome for me. this is mostly a cheat job where some colors and alignment make it 60% better.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

IndiepoprockJesse says:

Posting in an epic thread..
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

amproehl    says:

it seems like they were thinking, "as long as you get some Apple, ultra-glossy buttons or status display on the screen somewhere that you're good to go."
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mattyohe says:

TripLog/1040's preview pictures on the App Store have mysteriously disappeared.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

jakoblwells    says:

Average Rating: ✭½
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

bwheatley    says:

Steve i think the comments ripping your product are very snobby. I just got the new 3G iphone and i'm happy with it and i like it. But i agree with you making your app functional.

@Martti Makes -
" Try a little community involvement - This thread is proof that iPhone/Flickr users are a passionate bunch and don't mind spending 5 minutes to comment on something."

Most posters above were just being jerks without saying anything constructive. You are one of the very few people who posted constructive criticism.

It is heartening to know you put a lot of time into the UI design. Perhaps you could make 2 layouts toggled by a setting. 1 theme would be this fast one then make a theme called apple that is laid out in the more eye friendly appleistic way.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

somefool ∴ Matt    says:

Most posters above were just being jerks without saying anything constructive. You are one of the very few people who posted constructive criticism.
Theyre actually potential customers, ie $ bills for Steve so maybe less abuse would be better hey?

Perhaps you could make 2 layouts toggled by a setting.
Great, that's all this mess needs, ANOTHER button.

make a theme called apple that is laid out in the more eye friendly appleistic way.
Since when is visually appealing and useable mutually exclusive? It's that kind of attitude which creates these usability nightmares.

Posting in an epic thread..
Yeah well done, that was useful. Couldnt you have just been pleased that loading the page knocked the views up by one and left it at that?
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

bwheatley    says:

Someone above was talking about having it scroll which would be cool and reduce some of the clutter. Nothing that steve said to them was abusive imho. Especially if compared to the majority of the negative comments.

I already bought a copy to put my money where my mouth is. Not everyone who buys an iphone is an apple fanatic. Now that apple's becoming more main stream imho less and less people who buy apple products are going to be the hardcore apple follower. That means regular joes will become the majority of iphone customers.

There are many people who don't need something to be beautiful.
And the app just works so it doesn't have to be the worlds more beautiful. Though i would hazard that steve's next iteration of this app will take alot the constructive critism from this thread and put thought into it. When you go from developing on traditional mobiles to an iphone it night and day. You have to conceptionally think different. Multitouch, easy scrolling, etc. I'm confident his next update will look a lot better. And even if it doesn't the app works now.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

mceis72 says:

Wow, this is a tough crowd. I am just starting a small business and it seems just like what I'm looking for. Sure it may be a little cluttered, but this is an app where function outweighs aesthetics. It doesn't even look that bad to me. Maybe I'm just used to Windows systems. I'm going to buy it and report back. I only have the original iPhone (not 3G), but it seems like it would be nice to let GPS do some tracking for you automatically. GPS uses up a lot of battery, but I use the car as an opportunity to charge my iPhone anyway. Just a thought.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

J. Raff says:

I posted the original design on Skizzenblog (=sketchblog) www.mdc.tu-dresden.de/skizzenblog/triplog1040 / -- everybody's invited to comment on it by *sketching*. Let's go!
Posted 16 months ago. ( permalink )

German Jon says:

All I can say is Trip Cubby - TripLog done right.
While the brown colour may be questionable taste-wise, the interface is intuitive and gets the job done!
Posted 16 months ago. ( permalink )