TripLog/1040

Richard Faulder    says:

I'm crying tears… of blood.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Scopi    says:

Probably the best argument for why Apple didn't have the iPhone open to all apps for the last year. Hopefully the year of Apple UI apps will have taught most programers (if not this one) something.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

limulus    says:

Oh man, this just reminds me how much I miss PerversionTracker.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Brian Warren    says:

Trying to find anything that's actually lined up with anything else. I like that "$ Spent" is nudged up out of line to make room for the "Latest:" label.

Proof that Apple can only get you so far in interface design. It's still yours to screw up from there.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

mcritz    says:

simplify simplify
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Poppyseed Bandits    says:

How about the UI for their other iPhone app, the "Handy Randy" random number generator?

Caution: Shield your eyes.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

thetwilitekid    says:

Yes, this is terrifying.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Greg Bowers    says:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was mortified by this.

But then again, they are "A leading provider of software solutions for the iPhone"... looks like they think Palm OS application development will translate perfectly to the iPhone.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Shaughn David says:

Someone take his Apple Developer card away, please.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

hackand says:

"This is not a joke."

Wow.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

dan-apalooza says:

The question is: will this app be "accepted" by Apple for inclusion in the AppStore or is UI design going to be a deciding factor in which apps get in and which don't. As leery as I am of having one gate-keeper giving the thumbs up or the thumbs down to every app I am just as leery if having to wade through crap like this to get to the good stuff. Time will tell ...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

pilkycrc says:

@dan-apalooza: It won't get accepted, the terms state that you need to follow the HIG.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Ryan Bergeman says:

Love the Twitter-blue background. Very Web 2.0.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

pberry    says:

I didn't know you could use FileMaker on the iPhone. Sweet!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

dan-apalooza says:

Sweet relief
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Stephen Hackett    says:

My iPhone is crying.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

_Lawrence_ says:

Hey, at least the UI for their "Athlete's Calculator" is better.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

gardnerjr    says:

what is their fascination with a crazy wierd background color?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

johnkung    says:

Awesome! I can turn my iPod touch into my 5 year old Palm PDA!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Untitled Brand    says:

I like how this reminds me why I gave up using Palm software long ago.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Saad Mahamood says:

Shocking! Just shocking...It's like UI has come from the early 90's time-warp.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Justin Belcher    says:

Fuckin A.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

gregjsmith    says:

Looks like it would be at home on PalmOS to me.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Neven Mrgan    says:

Yeah, I'm gonna guess these people don't do a whole lot of consulting work for Apple in Cupertino...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Mike3k    says:

Eek!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

bbrown    says:

These jokers got accepted and I didn't. It's got to have been random.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Kieffer    says:

I like it. I think they did a very good job of minimizing wasted space on the screen. I paid a lot of money for those 153,600 pixels, and I'd hate to see them frittered away on white ... errrm, Windex-blue space. I like the red "save data" button, too, it really makes me think twice about whether I really want to press it or not.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

coyotl [deleted] says:

Actually, I used to have this App on my palm. I'm guessing that they used the porting tool ShoeHorn 2.0™!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

prefect says:

I seriously can't wrap my head around how I'm supposed to use that application. I gather it's an application for logging trips out of the house/office, but...

Hey, it's got rounded corners! And colorful buttons!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

camh    says:

Look John, you can talk up your laughable "usability" and "beauty" criticisms till the rooster crows, but the more knowledgeable and experienced PDA developers know it all comes down to features, and unreasonably light-blue backgrounds.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

hansderycke    says:

Part of me wants to cry, part of me wants to barf. But part of me is heartened by the thought that apparently the barrier to entry for iPhone apps is low enough that even I could do better than this. Yay!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

gruber    says:

I like the blue arrow button in the lower-right corner, too. “More Crap”, perhaps?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

alpine_peach says:

But there's a lot more software for Windows.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

The Octothorpe    says:

The Application of Fail.

Have these people actually seen an iPhone?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Ian Samuel    says:

I like that "Yesterday," "Today," "Other," and "Car #1" appear to be coequal choices up there at the top.

Also, "Save Data." Hahaha.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Neven Mrgan    says:

Note that over at Macworld, some are actually defending this.

"When there is are a lot of different pieces of information to enter, you can put them all on a series of separate screens (e.g., entering a new name into your contact list in the iPhone Contacts app) or put them in a more crowded scenario where everything can be accomplished from the same screen."

The latter is almost NEVER a good idea, actually.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Larsa    says:

You guys are of course right. But also a bunch of righteous zealots.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

sinnerbofh says:

After barfing while laughing at the same time, all I can say is:

WTF were they thinking? were they thinking at all?

Please somebody send them back to develop Business-grade .Niet crap

(I should take a series of screen shots of our company's Business-grade .Niet crap. 'Cancel' is in a different position in every window.Shortcuts are just not there and... I better stop)
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

D'Arcy Norman    says:

I don't know. If this isn't a joke, why am I laughing so hard?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Kyle Rove    says:

I followed the link to their website and sent them comments via their contact us web form. Here's what I said:

Your new iPhone application looks atrocious. It certainly will not fit in among the other iPhone applications currently under development.

Please fix it by hiring someone who understands the importance for UI design.

Thank you,
Kyle Rove

That wouldn't be...YOU, by any chance, would it?

Steve Patt
President, Stevens Creek Software
slpatt@stevenscreek.com

Mike3k    says:

I get it... this is LOLapps.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

meteoricnight    says:

This is why Apple explicitly said no posting screenshots until July 11 - fear that crap like this might settle into people's minds.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

daddytypes    says:

I don't know... that "$ Spent" button IS spaced very evenly between the totally differently colored buttons above it and the "Latest:" label. Sounds like attention to detail to me.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

el frijole    says:

i'm really tempted to just sit down tomorrow and make a UI for this, just to spare them further indignity, but I really have no idea how the app is supposed to work...

i guess that's the problem though, right?

*headdesk*
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

meteoricnight    says:

I showed this to a friend of mine who uses a WinMo phone and she thought it actually looked good and that I'd sent her the link to show off a "good" UI. I think that speaks volumes for the quality of apps on other platforms (and how many people might install this...)
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Aestheticmonk says:

Heading for a fairly bad trip I think. When I saw this on DaringFireball, I figured that following the link would show a iPhone front end for posting to www.Erowid.org for "Trip Reports". Perhaps I didn't get it quite wrong, as this UI might inspire few new posts there of the hairier variety! Please, someone help them! (The idea of the App is actually quite good. Especially if it links with the GPS.)
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

moström    says:

It reminds me of some Palm apps I've used
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Benjamin A. Stockwell    says:

Visual Basic for iPhone? Awesome.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

cioxx says:

It takes a lot of effort to make an iPhone app look absolutely shitty and this one manages to do it not only in looks but in functionality as well.

I looked at the screenshot for solid 3 minutes trying to understand what it was supposed to do and I still don't get it.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

kfordham281 says:

Yikes. I have to say my favorite part is the way the "$ Spent" is aligned due to the placement of "Latest". I certainly can't claim to know much about UI design, but even I can see when something is horribly wrong.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Adam Polselli    says:

It's difficult to believe that this isn't a joke. Yikes.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Rob Speed    says:

I love the use of buttons instead of a drop-down. I can't believe this company is actually successful!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Ron Domingue    says:

Seems perfectly fine to me.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

The Life of Bryan says:

Sweet, looks like they finally got the Access runtime working.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

GodOfBiscuits says:

Why can't I unsee??? Dear god, please!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

mintchocicecream says:

Hopefully, the App Store will go for 500 quality software at launch, rather than boast numbers of 5,000 apps if there are apps like these...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Il Neroconiglio says:

the blue arrow button in the lower right corner, isn't it a windowx xp bitmap?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

bryanzak says:

This reminds me of the early days of the Mac once it first got color (or on the Apple IIGS since it too was in color) when developers that didn't bother to read the HIG or look at other top apps (especially from Apple or Claris) decided they needed to use color in their apps (especially menus!) because Color QuickDraw was available!

Very sad that nothing has changed in 20 years for some developers. Welcome to 1988 I guess.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Jonathon Mah says:

Can I get the background in cornflower blue?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

moto browniano says:

I don't know about Palm apps, but surely this reminds me of Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. That's quite an achievement, believe me.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

tron1911 says:

I'm in the process of designing an iPhone app for the same purpose.
My sheets look somewhat different. ;-)
This is an example why i do not look back to my symbian, windows ce, pocketpc, palm experience since i own my iPhone.
"Even" ALL the jailbreak apps look more like a "real" iPhone app.
Hopefully no one buys that UI sin...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

zyote says:

Argh! this makes my eyes bleed!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Mark E Taylor    says:

One thing is for certain they wont sell a single copy.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

eduo    says:

@neroconiglio: That arrow is actually an "official" iPhone widget. Same as "odometer" and the tabs at the top. That plus the two text fields is all. Everything else seems custom (and ported straight from their Palm apps).

I'm not sure, but I think it must've actually been harder to do this than to use native widgets.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

markalanthomas says:

I know a few Windows fans who will insist that this is a good looking app full of useful functionality and who will be encouraged to immediately commit ritual seppuku for the good of mankind.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

maczter    says:

The "8" looks good.

Now if they'll just polish up the remainder it'll be good to go!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

JustHere says:

@eduo: The arrow may be native, but can you tell what function its meant to perform? Similarly, the odometer's native and looks (and probably works) well - but it's been very poorly used here. I'll go out on a limb here and say that if they hadn't used this version of official odometer, they could probably have made better use of the available screenspace... But then, there's probably a reduced-size odometer they could (and should) have used instead - there's really no need to see 4 unused and irrelevant rows of numbers, only the middle line.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Carlo Z    says:

MY EYES MY EYES THE GOGGLES THEY DO NOTHING

Wow... just wow.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

nikf    says:

Double-U. Tee. Eff.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

rralovely says:

I think a few guys, at Apple, the ones who developped the gorgeous SDK and Interface Builder, are currently gathered in a house, and putting it on fire.
The purpose of their lives has been crashed.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

rralovely says:

But, I tell you Steve is waiting for me on stage to show my app. I'm supposed to go after that guy with his little music app...
Why are you calling Security ?...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

rralovely says:

A good thing FSJ is on holidays... He would have freaked out.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

kaysha    says:

ouch
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Lapsus    says:

Jesus wept.

The thing is, Apple can't win here - if they allow this crap, then there's no point in owning an iPhone over a vile Palm or WinMo device, but if they don't then Slashdot, The Register and the rest of the peanut gallery lights up with "developers" howling about how Apple is teh evil and they are moving to Android yadda yadda.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

somefool :: ɹǝqɐɯ ʍǝɥʇʇɐɯ    says:

Jesus Christ!

I hope there will be some sort of quality control from Apple on these iPhone apps.

Just as relevant as ever:

www.flickr.com/photos/paulannett/61558479/
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

pie4dan    says:

I'm shocked!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

rdas7 says:

Oh snap — that's awesome! Surely it's a joke?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Andy*Matthews    says:

Words fail me!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

jaxn    says:

The UI is bad, but not nearly as disgusting as this pious, pile-on of a comment thread.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Andy*Matthews    says:

ooooooooooooooooooooo
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

ingopudlatz says:

What can I say? I hope this won't make it into the appstore. I would need an app like that thou, but not for the price of my eyes bleeding everytime I need to fill in some info.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

pie4dan    says:

Ok! This must be a joke!
I can hardly believe, that "a leading provider of software solutions for the iPhone" is serious with an UI like this!
Just look at the other 2 apps: the Handy Randy and the Athlete's Calculator. OMG!
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Designbot says:

The best part is, you know he's going to try to charge at least $39.95 for these.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

mitchgroff    says:

An even better touch: on their website, the picture they use to show that they are a leading supplier of Palm software is not a Centro, not a Treo, but some 10-year-old m-series unit.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

flwombat says:

I have some sympathy for these guys. As has been pointed out, the app is not a bad idea. It was apparently successful in its Palm incarnation.

Did anyone actually look at the screenshot of the Palm version? The incipient iPhone version is _better_. Maybe they are genuinely doing their best and don't understand what the criticism is about...?

Seriously, this is a non-trivial problem. If the iPhone is going to be a mainstream market-dominant device a-la the iPod, and is therefore going to attract all kind of developers new to the Apple toolset and design philosophy and so on, how are all of those people going to absorb the Apple design ethos? Are the gatekeepers of the Apple store going to tell folks like this "please do X and Y to conform to iPhone HIG and then resubmit" or just "take a hike, jokers"?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

jakoblwells says:

Apple won't let them into the App Store, right?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

diskgrinder    says:

"that killed the inner child in me"

is a quote from someone on FSJ.

That about nails it for me.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

diskgrinder    says:

Maybe it's for calculating athlete's foot fungal density?

Makes my toes curl, so works on that level.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Raymond Brigleb    says:

"Sir, I have tested your machine. It adds new terror to life and makes death a long felt want." - Sir Herbert Robert Beerbohm Tree, on examining a gramophone.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

David Chartier says:

So it's confirmed that this shop got into the store? Like they got their certificate and everything? Or could this just be a prototype running on the simulator that Apple's had the good sense to deny?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

stephenfleming says:

Hey, UI aside... Stevens Creek software has saved me HOURS of time with their UnDupe software. Syncing Palms seems to generate bogus duplicates by the hundreds of records. UnDupe eliminates duplicate records when Palm and Microsoft (Entourage) and even Apple (Address Book, iCal) fail. So I'm inclined to give them a break and see what version 2.0 looks like...
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Joe Mac Stevens says:

It looks like a Palm App.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

david wogan    says:

They should stick with writing Palm apps.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

markprivett    says:

Why was this non-designer selected for public ridicule? Is there some beef or claim of design quality I'm unaware of? Is this an exclamation point on everyone is not a designer?
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

ellikelli    says:

Jesus, that's one nasty looking app ;) looks like something drawn with Paint.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

Well, I'm so glad everyone here is having such fun at our expense. Have a ball.

I don't know who everyone here is, whether you're developing for the iPhone, have ever developed for any handheld platform, or are just iPhone users (actually one of the comments elsewhere online was clearly made by someone who wasn't even that). I'll tell you who I am. I've been making a living as an independent software developer for 20 years, developing and selling software for Mac, DOS, Windows, Palm, and now iPhone. Our company's user database consists of more than 100,000 users.

I'm not saying this to brag, or to "pull rank" on anyone. I'm saying it to point out that maybe, just maybe, we know SOMEthing about software design and development after 20 years in the business, including 10 years of designing for a handheld platform.

I'm not going to respond to every specific complaint, I don't have the time or inclination. I'll also say that no one claims this is a perfect interface, or can't be improved, or won't be improved in future iterations. It does, however, have the advantage for iPhone owners that starting July 11, they'll be able to use it to record their deductible (or reimbursable) trip mileage. Is this the most elegant interface we've ever designed? Hardly. Is it more cluttered than we'd "like"? Certainly. But there are reasons for that, SOME of which I'll discuss below.

I would like to make a few general observations that maybe some of you haven't thought about:

1) An iPhone screen isn't bigger than a Palm screen. OK, that was deliberately false. For data DISPLAY applications, like photos, or maps, or such, the 460x320 screen (460, not 480, because except for games you're advised against hiding the status bar) is obviously bigger than Palm's 320x320 screen (actually again in that case, a bit less height because of the generally-used title bar), and the iPhone screen is physically bigger than many Palm screens as well (certainly the Treo or Centro). But Palm apps are designed for buttons and other UI elements to be tapped with a stylus, and iPhone by fingertip. On a Palm app, a "standard" button height is 26 pixels (actually 13, because Palm apps are typically programmed for the original 160x160 resolution, but let's call it 26). In 300 vertical pixels, that would be 12 buttons one above another. Apple recommends that buttons and similar features be 44 pixels high, resulting in a "10 1/2 button high" screen. Of course, you CAN make things smaller, and if you use Safari on the iPhone, you know that MUCH smaller features can be tapped successfully, but in general, larger features are required. This means that for a data ENTRY application, as opposed to a mere data DISPLAY application like Photos or Weather or the like, the iPhone has just about the same constraints as a Palm.

2) An iPhone is not a desktop Mac, or even a Palm. It doesn't have menus, or drop-down menus (or lots of other things, like copy, cut, and paste, either). This is rather significant. If I were designing this app for a desktop, or even a Palm, those two gray "+" and "Edit" buttons wouldn't be there cluttering up the interface at all; they'd be menu items reading "Add Frequent Trip" and "Edit Frequent Trips" respectively. But there are no menus on iPhone. One COULD actually simultate them, but that would be at the expense of having a very non-standard interface using "non-Apple" elements, something which IN GENERAL (certainly not always) is to be avoided. Likewise the entire "frequent trips" section and its scrolling list of frequent trips. That COULD be, as it is in our Athlete's Diary application, a simple drop-down from the word Destination, where a user would tap on a downwards arrow to the right of "Destination" and that list would appear and let the user choose from the available choices. Again, something that COULD be simulated, but that isn't a standard iPhone UI element. And, as I'll discuss in a minute, maybe not the best choice in any case.

3) This is the most important point: THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT WORD IN "USER INTERFACE" IS NOT "INTERFACE." IT'S "USER." An application should not be designed to please "UI experts," or reviewers, or Apple snobs. It should be designed to please its USERS, and, in the case of a productivity application, be designed to make them maximally efficient at accomplishing the task at hand. An interface can not be judged indendently. It can only be judged IN CONNECTION WITH the task that it is intended to accomplish.

What is this program trying to accomplish? It is trying to make user of the fact that a person will always have their iPhone with them, and it wants to not only allow but, as much as possible, facilitate their recording of every deductible or reimbursable trip. That's why we never wrote a desktop application to do this, or even a Palm application. But with an iPhone, you're almost guaranteed to have it with you, so the goal of this application is to have someone record their trip BEFORE THEY EVEN GET OUT OF THEIR CAR. Now to do that, there is really only one criterion - speed. The quicker they can pull out their iPhone, look at their car odometer and transfer the information into TripLog, the better. If that time becomes too long, the application becomes useless.

Now let's look at this interface a bit. The "frequent trips" section takes up quite a bit of room. Why? Because we judge that most users will be of the type who take certain trips with regularity, be it a visit to the post office to pick up the company mail, a visit to their branch office, etc. Even if the destination varies, for example in the case of a travelling salesperson, the "purpose" might always be "Calling on customer." So making sure the user never has to enter the same thing twice becomes a critical function of the software.

So back to the question of time. I just got back from a trip to the Post Office. I pull out the iPhone, tap on the icon to start TripLog. When it appears, I tap "Post Office" in the Frequent Trips section, then "Save Data," and...that's it. Two taps and I'm done. I timed that. From "home screen to home screen" (i.e., including entering and exiting the app), that was 10 seconds (Incidentally, if we DID simulate, or Apple provided, a drop-down menu, that would now be THREE taps, not two, so the drop-down quite likely wouldn't be the best choice anyway).

What if the user has to enter more? First they dial in the mileage. One thing you can't see in this shot, although you can in other shots in the online manual (http://www.stevenscreek.com/iPhone/triplog.h tm), is that the screen is arranged so that the keyboard comes up to just below the "Purpose" field. That means once you tap in "Destination" and enter that, you can just tap in "Purpose" and continue entering that information, and only then dismiss the keyboard.

Now there's another area that takes up a bit of room that is probably confusing - the "Latest" section on the bottom. After all there's an entire log you can view by tapping the white arrow in the blue circle (which, since someone here makes fun of it, I should point out is an absolutely standard iPhone UI element entitled "UIButtonTypeDetailDisclosure," used, for eample, in the YouTube app. It's hardly something we invented). So why are we taking up 15% of the screen real estate showing just the last three entries (and, and an unfortunate side effect, pushing the "$ Spent" button out of line with the other two buttons)? There's a very simple reason, which we know because we've been selling our Athlete's Diary software for logging a different kind of mileage for nearly 20 years. It's because when you start up the software, half the time you'll be scratching your head saying, "Did I remember to enter yesterday's ride (or run)?" If you have to go to a SEPARATE screen to answer that question, and then back to the data entry screen, that's a waste of time. So you want to be able to answer that question immediately, with just a quick glance down to the bottom of the screen.

One more thing which seems to have everyone's knickers in a twist - the background color. First of all, so much of the screen is covered with other elements it's a pretty minor feature anyway. Second, the background has to be something which contrasts with white (the table of frequent trips and the list of the latest entries), gray (the data selector on top), and allows labels of the different elements (which are done here in black). We COULD have used a black background with white letters, which is more or less what we do in our Athlete's Calculator app, but in this app that didn't look so good, particularly as it loses the ability to set off the distance "picker". We could use the gray background Apple uses in many apps, but again with gray buttons we felt a pastel kind of color "worked better." Is that something we might change in the future or even allow user selection? Could be, but it's not our first priority. Incidentally, if you think Apple is so great at selecting colors, take a look at the "Stocks" app. "Ugh" is my reaction to that. And of course pastel-type backgrounds are also used by Apple, as in the "Notes" app. Funny enough, in the thread over at MacWorld, one guy simultaneously defends that as "simulating a pad of paper," and then denigrates the odometer in TripLog even though it simulates a car odometer (which, by the way, isn't the primary reason we chose that, but it is, we think, a nice visual element).

Well, I could say more about every single feature of this interface, but that's about all I have time for (actually much more). It's real easy to criticize. It's even easy to write software with a simple, elegant interface. What isn't so easy is to write software that accomplishes the task a user needs to do, particularly when it involves lots of data entry on a handheld, small-screen device. As somebody wrote over in that MacWorld thread again, look at the iPhone contacts app. It's certainly attractive. But if you want to enter a new contact, and just include name, email, phone, and address, you go through 8 screens (four of them the same as you return to the main entry screen) to do so (on a Palm, by the way, that's all accomplished on one or two screens, depending on how you define a screen, since it's really one long screen that keeps scrolling up).

This app COULD have used the same approach as the iPhone contacts app. But it didn't. Because this app is designed to be used EVERY DAY, whereas most people only enter new contacts on their iPhone (as opposed to their desktop) rarely, if at all. And when you're using it every day, going through multiple screens to accomplish a task is simply not acceptable. And if you want to do it on one screen, as we did, things are going to get a bit crowded. That's life.

Steve Patt
Stevens Creek Software
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

meteoricnight    says:

Steve:

Tab bar - split latest destinations, frequent trips, and any other not-so-frequently edited data into other views. And favorite's could easily be a single text field with a picker. I think you're underestimating how many people have come to <3 the iPhone UI way of doing thing after years of using Palm apps.
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

meteoricnight, did you read what I wrote? Because I address pretty much everything you just said.

Obviously, some things are judgment calls. You say "you don't need to see latest destinations when you're inserting a current one." Sometimes you don't. But our experience is that often enough you DO, and the need to switch to a separate screen to verify whether you have or have not entered yesterday's data is undesirable. Of course you can disagree with our opinion, but clearly there's no "right" answer to that question.

Frequent trips are not frequently edited, that's true. But they are frequently USED, and that's why they're on the screen. Other than the display of latest entries on the bottom, there is no "not-so-frequently" edited data on this screen at all. And the two things which we judge are less often ENTERED by the user (dates older than yesterday and tolls/parking expenses) are on different views (not different screens, but different sections of screen which slide onto this one, as you can see in the manual).
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Steve Patt says:

Incidentally, it's rather amusing that everyone keeps talking about porting from Palm. Because not only don't we have any such application as this one on the Palm (i.e., this application was written from scratch), but also, we don't have a single Palm application which looks anything like this. Our one data logging software for Palm, The Athlete's Diary, looks nothing whatsoever like this (http://www.stevenscreek.com/palm/tad.html).

It's amusing, by the way, that there's so much anti-Palm snobbery in these comments. Amusing because, as someone who has been selling Palm software for 10 years, Mac users were significantly over-represented in our user database compared to Windows users, i.e., Mac users have long gravitated to Palm (before iPhone changed the picture, obviously).
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )

Kogenre says:

(Apologies for length!!)

I'm a developer for Windows Mobile devices, used in offshore/industrial environments to track/trace inventory.

I'm a mac/iphone user at home, windows/win mobile coder at work, which I think gives me a nice balanced view of UI design. And I've learned a very valuable lesson recently - Apple users buy and pay a premium for their products because they appreciate simplicity, and thoroughly-thought about design.

Microsoft users buy with getting the job done in mind, and usually, their involvement with their product is either short lived or is completely objective - And that's not a disparagement of Microsoft users, that is the world of business where Microsoft rules the roost.

So with that in mind a little constructive criticism:
1) Your target audience/screen layout
You've obviously thought about your target audience, but I think you've possibly "mis-read" the core-Apple users- I find they tend to anthropomorphise their devices, and attach emotional value to them, so they won't mind if they have to tap 5 times more to enter all the data because they enjoy working with a "relaxed" well laid-out environment.

You noted that "speed" is his primary design metric for this design, and granted it gives you that, but at expense of ease-of-use and visual clutter. Again, the typical user of an iPhone, wouldn't be so overtly speed-centric, instead, I would say clarity is more important. The Apple design paradigm is about progressive learning, and removing items that are not used frequently to another area of the program.

2) There's potentially "hidden" interaction going on "under the covers"
It's not clear to the user which components interact with others, so much so that you wrote an extended comment about HOW the user should use it. In an ideal world, a user shouldn't have to ask what these interactions or relationship between visual components are.

3) Favour parent/child relationships or hierarchy
An approximate hierarchy you could use is that "Costs" belong to a "Car" which belongs to a "Trip" which belong to a "Day". The type would be an attribute of a "Trip". I've found about 80% of the time a good database schema will lead you into a "good-enough" UI design. And then you can do tweaking from there. Seperate child items in the hierarchy to different screens and you should be about good to go.

4) Stick to the standards or pseudo standards.
Things in the background should stay in the background, so why is the background vividly blue? Why is it not default? If you want to step away from Apple's standards, I would consider replacing any visual widgets with your own too. If you want to use a pastel shade, I'd turn down the saturation just a notch.

Also, red = danger. Save data shouldn't be in red as it's not a "dangerous" action. Clear data is - That should be red. There is also a mix of glossy and flat buttons - Again, choose one which complements your design and stick with it.

So what I'd do:
1) Refactor and clarify relationships between items (have a look at your schema!)
2) Decide and stick to a visual style.
3) Try a little community involvement - This thread is proof that iPhone/Flickr users are a passionate bunch and don't mind spending 5 minutes to comment on something.

:)
Posted 12 months ago. ( permalink )