Message to Obama

JulieFrick    says:

There's a petition out there to encourage the IRS to look into the status of the LDS as tax-exempt, in light of their intense lobbying and fudraising efforts in support of Prop 8. It's a start.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

miss.bailey says:

i completely agree with you. moving shot!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

jtalbott    says:

Well said. A similar amendment just passed in Florida. We finally went blue this election but certain people still aren't allowed to love who they want to love? It seems so backwards at times :( ....
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Okay, here's the thing: Americans see marriage as a religious sacrament; therefore, under the religious idea, marriage should be between a man and a woman because "the Bible says so." However, marriage was a secular institution before the Catholic church declared it a religious sacrament.

Obama does not seem to be ready to commit to the phrase "gay marriage;" however, he does seem to support "civil unions" between homosexuals. This language, I feel is a step, BUT, this language infers a "separate but equal" institution, which I do, at heart, have a problem with.

Homosexuals -- and I am going to add bisexuals here as well because as a bisexual, I could have just as easily have fallen in love with a woman and would have wanted to marry her -- want true equality under the law like heterosexuals do, just like African Americans wanted equality under the law like whites had in the 60s much like women wanted to have with men during the 20s.

"Separate but equal" is not the same as "equal," but "separate, but equal" is a start. Equality has to start somewhere.

To get back to my first point, we -- all of us -- need to start pressuring our Government to stop using the Bible as a backbone of a law.

When someone is asked: "Why shouldn't gays be allowed to marry?" The answer is usually: "Because God says it's a sin." This is the root of the problem: Basing a State law on a Church decree. There is to be a press to separate the two and a press for educating people into realizing that marriage began as a secular institution, and not a religious one.

Also, Obama is against DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage as a man and woman); he also is against amending the Constitution to declare marriage as "man and woman."

But I, too, can only hope that within the next four years, Obama will help yet another minority achieve equality.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

Welcome aboard, Dave. It was just insane here in the Bay Area the last two weekends. YesOn8 groups at all intersections all over the place. (For those not familiar, a YES vote meant NO on same-sex marriage - another tactic used by many who put initiatives on the ballot to put confusion in their favor.) Sometimes there were NoOn8 groups across the street, but the Yes groups weree clearly more organized. They held their "bullets" until the final 2 or 3 weeks, and the No folks just weren't prepared. A lot of credit has been given to the Mormon church in driving the YesOn8 movement ... and if the Mormons are anything, they are organized and moble. This was the most well funded initiative in the history of mankind.

Emotions ran very high. My daughter walked up to talk to a YES group, and got revveed up to where she drove home to make her own NoOn8 sign. A few minutes later the police showed up at our front door following up on a report that she hit a YES person. They wrote down her license number, and lied to the Police about the hitting. Although, she did admit later that she pulled one of their signs up out of the grass right in front of them.

Like I said, emotions ran VERY HIGH. And it is not subsiding either. Lawsuits, counter movements, and god-knows-what are being spawned by the results.

Welcome aboard, Dave.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Oh, and another thing about Obama, he needs to be reminded that there was a point in this Nation's history where his parents were not allowed to be married, too, because they were an interracial couple.

He talks about this in a meeting he had with reps from the Human Rights Campaign. So, I think he understands the significance, but because of pressure from homophobic groups, he was quiet about the issue during his campaign.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

Sarah, I just saw your post. Well said. I agree that "separate but equal" is better than nothing, but it has to be labeled as inferior every minute of every day. Time will correct this. Be patient, but not too patient.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

Yeah...it's Obama's generally open view on the topic that gives me hope. He definitely seems to basically have it right...I mean groups like HRC (Human Rights Campaign...with whom I just renewed my membership) wouldn't have supported him if he didn't, right?
I'd like to think I've been "aboard" for a long time. Remember back in the 90's when Colorado was the "hate state" after we passed Amendment 2? I was embarrassed to be from my native state back then. Good for your daughter, by the way! Let's hope the passion around this issue doesn't pass any time soon -- if the good people are as organized as the bad people the next time around, hopefully things will go differently.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

Sarah, some quick (and approximate) arithmetic tells me that they were married prior to 1967 when the supreme court finally settled the interracial marriage. So they were fortunate to have been married in the right state.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Thank you for the arithmetic.

It's a view that gives me hope. I think we are going to be seeing some amazing things over the next decade. I just joined the HRC yesterday. Like I said on my stream the other day, I finally feel brave enough to express my point of view. It's liberating. But yes, many LGBT groups and magazine and publications voiced open support for Obama.

Exactly. Be patient, but not complacent.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

.tara.    says:

Yeah, I was very upset to see it pass. I *do* know a lot of openly gay people (and you know at least 2 of them - my uncle and his partner of 15 years!), and as a California native, growing up in SF & the Bay Area and then as an adult in Marin County (which I think also has a very high concentration like SF they are just richer ;-) ) it just seems a no-brainer. They are humans just like you and me, and who they fall in love with shouldn't matter just like the color of their skin or whatever should not matter.

Now, also as a CA native I have to say that in a way I was also *not* surprised. I think the CA natives can agree with me - while CA is considered progressive and whatever, that is mainly SF & LA, but MOST of the state is farmland and conservative. Also, we seem to have more Republican Governors than Democrat, which I have never understood.

I hope it gets overturned as to me it is a human rights issue. Although, I hate to say it, I think I am slightly more appalled at the amendment in Alabama that passed, that no 2 unmarried people, gay OR straight, can adopt a child. So Dave, if we lived in Alabama but wanted to rescue a child from an orphanage or a bad situation and give them a safe loving home and a chance at growing up with a family, we would be SOL. WTF is THAT all about.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

I totally agree about the adoption amendment. SO completely appalling...makes me ill. Let me guess...the same people that supported it would also insist that a victim of rape or incest have the baby, right? But then once the kid needs a home, God forbid it go to a loving gay couple. GRRRR.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

¤ njm ¤    says:

Separate but equal...yeah, it's a step in the right direction, in the sense that Plessy v. Ferguson was a step in the right direction. Plessy stayed in effect for, what? 50+ years until the Supreme Court realized that "separate" very rarely went along with "equal" and mandated integration began (Brown v. Board of Education). Of course, back then, it required National Guard troops and caused rioting. If we get widespread support for gay civil unions, it won't be long before the law realizes that civil unions aren't being taken as seriously as marriages, and that gay couples in unions aren't being granted the same rights as married straight couples. So. It's a step, but requires a LOT more work.

I don't get why people can't just look at Massachusetts and realize that nothing bad has happened to straight couples there. Straight people still get married, often in churches, in Massachusetts all the time. They live productive lives together, and the fact that their gay neighbors also get married doesn't impact them in the slightest. Life still goes on, the earth moves around the sun, gay people get married, straight people STILL get married...
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Gamma Infinity    says:

1) The California initiative process was great idea, but it set the bar way too low for this media environment. It worked when newspapers were the hottest thing around and it took 12 hours for Sacramento to find out what was happening in San Diego, but that was then and this now. Now the initiative is the major political tool for any interest or even individual with enough money to pay signature gatherers and get on the ballot, then blitz the state with a scary ad campaign and confuse people into voting for the thing.

2) California is an agricultural state with an oil patch, and a few cities along the coast. Often its affinity is more with the South than people think. In the Civil War, the Union had to occupy SoCal to keep it from seceding. There are neighborhoods around oil refineries where you'd swear you were in Texas. It's a blue coastal strip with a few inland blue islands, in a red sea.

3) Obviously you had some interest groups that are usually under-represented turning out in larger numbers to vote for Obama. Without lapsing into the kind of unconscious racism that's going around right now concerning this issue, let's just say that anecdotal evidence supports the idea that some communities with strong ethnic ties to older traditions can run their homophobia closer to the surface than you'd first think an oppressed group would treat another one.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

I agree with you 100%!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

Yeah, the exit polls speak to point #3.

Exit Poll Numbers That Really Jump Out
African Americans - 70% Yes
65 and Older - 61% Yes
Republicans - 82% Yes
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

atomictonic    says:

I married my husband not only because we were madly in love, but because I'm American and he's Swedish and we wanted to live in America. So we got married so he (we) could.

We have zero religion in this house, not an ounce of it.

Is it ridiculous that we're married? Yes. Absolutely. We just happened to get lucky in that we're straight and marriage was an option for us.

I'd much prefer us to have a civil union that afforded us all the same rights as a marriage. I'd also much prefer that everyone get to make their own choices and have a marriage or a civil union, either with the exact same rights.

I voted for Obama and I think he's great but his stance on this was a total sticking point for me. He's not perfect and he's not going to fix everything but he's a start.

(I also secretly hope that he actually is for gay marriage but feels the country isn't ready to hear it yet AND that he's not really religious at all but also knows the country is REALLY not ready for that so he pretends. What. A girl can dream.)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

I actually have the same hope about his views on gay marriage. I don't think he's faking the religion part though...which is actually fine with me. I'm not religious, but I have NO problem with him being religious.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

fokiesd    says:

You know once again the Republicans threw out 10 of these anti-gay ballot measures nation-wide. The closest by far was Prop 8. I think there's a chance that it will be repealed - still unconstitutional. Still very frustrating. If it comes up again in the next few years I think it will be reversed.

Pete Wilson, and the anti-immigrant crowd showed that CA is very susceptible to knee-jerk fear based voting, but he No campaign made mistakes too. As lame as it is to think that people need to be convinced to allow other citizens to keep their rights, I think the No's could have won if they responded better to the Yes campaign charge that gay marriage would be taught in schools. I don't know if that's true per se, I'm a teacher and I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean that some grade or curriculum teaches it, but I thought we learned from the Clintons etc that you have to respond to charges and respond immediately.

They never said, "Maybe this will be taught, but so what? You don't want your kids to know about gays? You can teach your kids to hate if you want, but how is this hurting your kids?" Or maybe "80% of teachers says it's not taught and the rest say it's a very minor part of the curriculum. You want to strip people of their rights so your kids don't know about them?" How about "The Mormon Church is funding the Yes campaign." That right there would do it I think. Just a bad response.
I also thought the ground campaign was weaker.

What I hate seeing now is a blame game going against blacks. The last thing we need is a rift between blacks and gays. Yes, we know blacks are disproportionately homophobic - this is not new, but we do need to work together ultimately.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

LOLLO SNAPPER says:

great message! i'm agree with you...
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

like_shipwrecks    says:

I too was shocked that Prop 8 passed.

And I just want to say thankyou for your support <3
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

KYouell says:

Great message, beautiful photo.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

How long would the human race last if all the world went gay?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Are you seriously bringing that up as an "argument" against same-sex marriage?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

I suppose roughly one generation (assuming none of them decided they needed to procreate for the sake of the human race).

Yep...good thing the whole world isn't gay.

Does your bizarre question actually have something to do with this topic?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

We do have artificial means of insemination. I suppose that some gay men would be willing to give lesbian women sperm to make babies, and then those babies could be shared, maybe. Hmmm.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

Hey, I just asked a simple question.
Don't start with the bigotry and hate on me.

"and then those babies could be shared, maybe" ????
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

I was being sarcastic, and I apologize for you not liking my sarcasm to a question that I perceived as being sarcastic. And sarcasm is not being a bigot, and nor does it mean I hate you.

Let me answer your question now that I know you are being serious non-sarcastically:

Not all people are going to suddenly turn gay just because gay marriage is allowed. I was born a bisexual. My brother was born straight. My mother was born straight. My husband was born bisexual. Two of my friends were born lesbians, once of which is married (to a woman) and they have a baby. Another one of my best friends was born gay -- he doesn't want kids, but he is our children's Uncle. My point is that there is a nice healthy ratio there of children being born and being healthily raised. My bi-husband and I have two children, and if they were born gay or straight or lesbian or transgendered, we will love them just the same. So, no, I don't think that ratio will change. I do not think the population will disappear anytime soon due to homosexuality.

By the way, did you know that many animal species form homosexual relationships and those animals are not extinct?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Mi-ly    says:

fyi

Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

Tell it to Dr Phil. (sarcasm, my simple mind could not resist)

Simply put, if all people turned 100% gay, no interferance from science, the human race would die out.

I see that as a big minus for us humans.

I am willing to stand up and say "I am pro-human race"
HUMAN RACE HUMAN RACE HUMAN RACE HUMAN RACE

(Now I'll have to have hoodies made)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

I am Pro-Happy-Human Race. But I wonder what is your basis in thinking that 100% of humans are going to somehow just "turn gay," and you ignored what I said about homosexual coupling animal pairs.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

OK mrs. reed,
you have a good day and a wonderful life.
Maybe I'll send you a hoodie.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

Wow, you were actually serious? Your reason for being anti-gay marriage is that you're worried about the survival of the human race? Really?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

mrs. reed,
Now your adding things to your comments that were not there before.

And I doubt very seriously that all people will turn gay, I only asked the question.

No hoodie for you.

Good day mrs. reed.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

nariposa says:

There's is no way Obama believes in these hateful legislative initiatives against gays. No effing way. Obama spoke out against gay intolerance in Beaumont, TX of all places on the campaign stump - to an audience of Baptists! He has explicitly stated that he does not support Prop 8. The "civil union" language was purely for political expediency. You are going to see a change coming my friend, but I fear the tone across the country is not there yet to the point where Obama can spend all his political capital on this issue. It's disgusting, but that's the state of affairs right now.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

All of you have a good day and a wonderful life.
See you out there someday.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

Well this is fun:


Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

SkyShaper    says:

Page One Explore!
I think your message will be well heard
":O)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

Dude!! Page One! How cool! Now Barack will read your letter...or not...maybe....
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

nariposa says:

@JulieFrick here's the petition you mentioned: lds501c3.wordpress.com/
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

SaylaMarz    says:

I hope he grows as the country grows. I get the sense that the's open to new ideas on this one. I have hope for him....it's the rest of the country i'm worried aobut.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Meredith_Farmer    says:

Fantastic photo Dave. I agree with you 100% (no surprise there). I know I am only feeding the fire here, but...

People are born gay, just as they are born straight. There is no "turning gay". This sort of fucked up reasoning only further illustrates your [willful] ignorance and intolerance.

But Dave - fabulous message. Thank you for providing the forum for this discussion. :-)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

I love the fear some folks have about everybody turning gay. Yea, it's true. Men loooooooove men, but most are afraid to admit it, so they pretend to be straight. Same for women and lesbianism.

When the finger is out of the dike (uhm ... if there's a pun there, I didn't intend it), then everybody will finally cave in and go gay.

And I mean EVERYBODY..!!!! So that must include you, Mr. Calvin E. Photography.

NOT...!!!!!!

So funny ... and sad at the same time.
jb
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

As far as Obama and same-sex marriage, yea he's staying back from the firing line. To once again compare to Abe Lincoln, Mr Lincoln was not an abolishionist when he came to office. He was just against allowing slavery to spread as the country grew. So he was leaning in the right direction, but not totally head over heels for cleaning house. Some would even say that he freed the slaves in order to bring more troops to the front lines or to get more votes the next year. There may be some truth to all that, but he basically went as fast as he felt would work, and he allowed the other side (CSA) enough "rope" to hang themselves -- to put the questin on the table such that any reasonable person would have to say, "Hell No..!!!

Patience was his strongest virtue. A good example to follow for a leader. Especially when there are advocates working on the cutting edges setting the stage for the proper time.

Be patient. Be vigilant. Be diligent.
jb
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Calvin E. Photography    says:

Geez people I only asked a question.
Never once did I say I was against gay marriage.
Never once did I say I hated gays.
Never once did I mention my personal preferance.

Interesting who the haters seem to be here.
Ignorant bigotry going on right here just because I asked a question.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Damoiselle de pique    says:

congrats on making explorer!!!!!
i was looking at it and saw a familiar face and it was you!
yay!
:)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

.tara.    says:

- Okay, I tried to hold my tongue, but I can't anymore.

You said:

How long would the human race last if all the world went gay?

Interesting who the haters seem to be here.
Ignorant bigotry going on right here just because I asked a question.

Calvin E. Photography    says:

.tara.
Getting so bent out of shape over a simple question is ridiculous.
My "hater" comment was in response to jerry.b and meridith farmer who seem to be a little upset.
As I said to the others, you have a good day and a wonderful life.

Oh yes, no hoodie for you.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

.tara.    says:

Thanks for the assumption. I am certainly not bent out of shape; I was quite calm when I wrote this. Many people who have commented know me outside of Flickr so they can easily vouch for me that I am not at all "bent out of shape".

I should have known better than to even try to have a mature conversation with you with all of your assumptions and name-calling!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Little Thoughts    says:

im glad we dont have to have this discussion where i live anymore. I hope america takes the dutch example some day and realize its about human decency.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

Mr. Photog.....
That was no simple question. If taken literally, it has absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage. So in the void of a nonsense question, the questionee is free to take a best guess at what the connection was.

Nice bait, and we took it. But not simple. Not innocent either.
So whatever it was that you wanted, you got us and our thoughts.

Sleep tight.

jb
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

xarma (off → traveling...)    says:

Well said!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

"Oliver 62"    says:

Right on. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination, and especially worse if the reason is religious based. The harder one puts the heel down on a discriminated group, the uglier the world gets. If we are to accept CHANGE, let's make sure it means for ALL of US and not some of us. Although I voted and do believe in Obama's ability to make a difference, I was, too, upset over his language in the last debate regarding same sex unions. I couldn't help think it was one of those issues where he was just appeasing the masses because admitting he was all for gay marriages would have cost him the election...who knows?

(And to get my two cents in on the world all going gay comment, Are you serious? Sexual preference is the most natural thing next to childbirth. If a gay couple - man or woman - can't conceive because of them being gay, I'll be damned because my hetero wife and I couldn't get pregnant without the use of technology! In my opinion, the human race - and the health of our universe - progresses when intellect and acceptance reigns, not when backwards ideologies and harmful discrimination linger.)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Jump Leads    says:

[Calvin E. Photography] It's pretty clear that you need to drag your head a tad further into reality.

"Hey, I just asked a simple question.
Don't start with the bigotry and hate on me."

No one started any hate OR bigotry. Well... Not untill you started calling them ignorant bigots for no reason anyway. That's was a great way to make them think you're mildly insane.

I can understand your original question. And people gave answers on a scale of seriousness that they thought mirrored your own. Do you really think people will all turn gay if they are allowed to marry the same sex? Then you need to get your head seen to, funny guy. If you were not serious... Then why are you kicking and screaming so much about it. Oh, but hang on, it was a serious question? You think your opinion is *always* right? Even when multiple people have commented to say that this is not the case. Or perhaps you don't understand people... I was thinking that your grasp of the English language was good enough for you to understand what people said, not the contorted view you seem to see. I dunno.

The world against you, my friend, of course.

Oh wait, how silly of me. It's a troll... Right? Funny.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Jump Leads    says:

{.jerry-b.} ...
yeah... i was just thinking of how much more i'd love to have sex with a man instead of a woman... when the law in the UK changed... I flipped into being a gay man the same day!

i better just say that i'm completely straight before someone out there takes me too seriously? heh
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

chrisps    says:

fantastic portrait, great tones, works beautifully in mono, well done
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

FXGR    says:

Hi D.Rex,
There is only few countries in the world where homosexual wedding is allowed. Belgium is on of these. Won't happen in France before a long time. All the problems related to sexual preference won't be fix in a day. I followed , like everybdody in the world US election. Great esperance message for the world. Aniway, from outside. A bit scared about polemeic when Obama was obliged to say he was not muslim... Symptomatic to the US and the link between the religion and the the civil society. Not sure your next president will push for a change.
your president could be consider progressist in US, his idea and message maybe consider as strong conservative in Europe and France.

At the end, nice pictures, your album is great !
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

appaIoosa    says:

@FXGR: There is only few countries in the world where homosexual wedding is allowed. Belgium is on of these.

And CANADA ;-)

Canada has always been progressive when it comes to social reform, the separation of church and state, heath care, equality and gay rights.

It was one of our former Prime Ministers that said " "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation"

Canada's same-sex marriage law was passed nationwide, by an overwhelming majority vote, into being on June 29, 2005 - officially recognizing same-sex marriage.

We had hoped our neighbours to the south would soon follow suit.

Change takes time.

Regards,
~app
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

JulieFrick    says:

This is so silly. If the human race is going to die out, it will be because we're too busy arguing ridiculous points like yours and not paying attention to how we're polluting our own home. Get out there and lobby for global warming, poverty, and genocide awareness if you want to save the human race so much.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

pm76227 says:

What the fuck?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

crkline2 says:

Barack Obama was overwhelmingly elected by the majority of people in California, but Prop 8 was also passed by CA voters. So that means some of those Obama voters voted for Prop 8 or remained silent on Prop 8.

I would hazard to guess that most Republicans voted for McCain and Voted yes on Prop 8, so some of these Obama supporters voted against Prop 8, and these Democrats put Prop 8 over the top.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

Change takes time; change is slow. It's incredibly frustrating, but the real push for gay rights began, when, in the 1960s sometime?! Think of how long it took women and African Americans to get the right to vote, and you'll have some idea about how long it may take, though those struggles and racial civil-rights struggles will help shorten the time, IMO. It's another civil rights struggle.

Obama knows it's not time yet. Though he opposes these anti-gay-marriage amendments like Prop. 8, he also opposes promoting gay 'marriage' where it does not currently exist. Huh?? And he supports civil unions for any couple. HUH??!

Reason: a religious and cultural war over a single, stupid word (!!) need not derail his efforts to improve this country in a myriad of other ways at this time. And it would have -- if Obama had come out in favor of promoting gay 'marriage', John McCain would be president-elect now. Yet we have come far enough in this civil-rights struggle that he COULD be in favor of civil unions; 20 years ago he would have lost the election for promoting civil unions for gays.

Progress is being made. Really. The wrong kind of impatience can set things back. I know it's not fair, it's not fair at all, but progress is being made.

Obama knows that the word 'marriage' has a particular definintion for a lot of rigidly religious people, and a lot of traditionally-minded people who may not even be very religious anymore. The opposition to gayness and gay 'marriage' among heterosexuals has those religious roots, which are in turn rooted in a lack of understanding and some biochemical crap inside our heads.

Separate the word 'marriage' from the state's legal obligations and throw it to the religious wolves, no matter what the origin of the word actually is. Let the tribal warfare over 'marriage' and 'holy unions' be a religious one, separate from the state's legal unions of property, visitation and child-custody rights.

Just as you can find a church, synagogue, temple, mosque which would throw people out for being gay, you can also find one that will embrace a gay couple and marry them.
_________________________________

And to consider the Ick Factor. Think about it, everyone -- take away the instinctual, emotional attraction to sexual behaviors and the pleasure derived from them. From a more rational, abstract level, what we want to do with each other's bodies is pretty disgusting. (And if you are germ-o-phobic, well, ...!!)

So take a given man who is only sexually attracted to women's bodies, add the Ick Factor to a lack of understanding and/or empathy as to how a man could be attracted to another man, add testosterone, and throw in a large helping of religious doctrine built on that ignorance and fear and hormones and -- voilá! -- loathing sets in. Then you rationalize your fear and religious doctrine by the fact that Nature ordained that procreation be obtained only by male-female bonding -- as icky and shameful as that may also be seen -- in the absence of artificial techniques.

Also, before modern medicine brought us antibiotics and immunizations and such, babies and small children died right and left from so many diseases and conditions that are now preventable. So it was essential for a tribe or a people, for their very survival, to encourage procreative sexual behavior and discourage any and all non-procreative (including masturbation and hetero oral and anal sex -- don't "spill your seed on the ground" nor in other places it does not belong). Add that to the mix.

Today, of course, offspring from every fertile female is no longer required, and is, in some areas of the world, in fact a problem.

My brain was structured by God, or Nature, or the Cosmos, whatever, to be heterosexual. I have always been attracted to women's bodies, ever since any sexual awareness began to occur to me, even before I understood what it meant. Gay friends have told me the same exact thing about themselves, with regard to their own sex.

Whether it's genetically encoded, or our brain structures formed that way in utero, this is who we are. Nature did it. God did it. As long as no one is forced into something s/he doesn't want or is unable to comprehend, then the secular law should not interfere. In a nation with freedom of religion, we should allow legal civil unions whether hetero or homo.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Aaron Escobar ♦ (the spaniard)™    says:

Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

prairiearth    says:

Great picture d. You show a great deal of emotion. Don't come down to hard on Obama in this matter (I can't believe I just said that). I've always felt this decision should not be a political matter but a legal one. Taking it to the ballot box and to the courts is the way to win. Yes the President can 'lead' the people to a new way of thinking but he himself can not legalize it. As long as he doesn't stand in its way then I don't see him as a bigot.

BTW CE Photo… You just keep on doing what you’re doing and saying what you’re saying. I hope you spread your words well beyond this little splinter of the world. The more people like you speak up, the more people of intelligence will recognize the stupidity and ignorance of your bigoted argument.
Not to mention it’s just so darn entertaining! Also, are your hoodies all white and pointed on top?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

SutraT    says:

*sniff air* Yep, definitely smells like troll in here.

But in any case, Dave, great photo and message. Congrats on the Page One visibility! :)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

zholmeshiggin says:

he.believes.in.everything.but.CALLING.it.marr iage.because.of.some.stupid.religious.reason.

but.personally.i.agree.with.you..and.i.cant. believe.my.OWN.STATE.voted.for.prop.8.

but.they.still.have.the.same.rights.as.strai ght.couples,they.just.dont.CALL.it.marriage.

sorry.my.spacebar.broke..haha.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

SimpleMoon    says:

I am going to make my own hoodies and will give ALL of you one. They will say "Give my gay son the same rights as my straight daughter". Hoodies for everyone!!!!

Thanks Dave for sending the message. I also sent a Message For Obama similiar to the one above. I hope that he listens.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

wind_dancer    says:

There is hope for California, who amends its constitution probably far more often than any other state.

I have an old (1910's) copy of the California Constitution. I was shocked to see the "coolie" laws that were actually written in our constitution back then. The labor, housing, and other forms of discrimination that were written against the Chinese that came here during and after our Gold Rush years is appalling.

We have come so far, and yet, have so far to go.

One day, once again, we will see the errors of our ways. I have hope.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

poorgirl47 says:

Why must i so struggle please email me at www.poorgirl147.co.za
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

billmylab says:

To Julie Frick the first commenter:
The Catholic Church was as big a backer as the Mormons...might want to look into that also.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

It's also important to realize that even if the state stopped using the term 'marriage' and ceded it to religious groups, many of those conservative and literalist religious groups would continue to try to overturn the legality of civil unions, and legal adoption by gay couples [and unmarried straight couples].

Gayness is anathema to many religious. They really don't want their children to know gays exist, and they certainly don't want to see any scientific evidence that God hardwired gayness into people. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran claims that gays do not exist in Iran, that gayness is a function of the hedonistic, Godless West.

An extreme view to be sure, but many conservative religious groups throughout the world are nearly that extreme, and many are here in this country, who believe that gay sexuality could not possibly be inborn because God created the 2 sexes for procreation. Evidence that God also created gays to be who they are would short-circuit cherished beliefs and images of Who God Is.

Which is fine with me. Human arrogance and fear created anti-gay sentiment millennia ago, and wrote it into Scripture as God's Word.

It's [way past] time to correct the problem, and we are, but it'll still take some time.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

crkline2 says:

Praireearth - since this is now an amendment in the California constitution, I didn't think it could be taken to the courts. Instead, the Californian voters would need to vote to repeal this ammendment. Just like the US repealed prohibition.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

crkline2: The only good thing about a simple-majority constitutional amendment, which can too easily effect a lot of foolishness, is that it only takes a simple majority to undo it.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

madtownmorse says:

Homosexuality is not natural; if it were, then there'd be 50% straight people, 50% gays, or perhaps even a bigger percentage of gays. Because it is not natural, while allow a natural, normal marriage to people who are not natural sexually? Homosexuality also does not allow for normal reproduction, which is a basic, strong foundation for marriage. Thus, how can a union that lacks this basic foundation be considered a natural, normal marriage?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

thomasbaxter30 says:

Man fuck who ever think he could be a bigot u jus dealt with the biggest case of bigotry in U.S. presidential history ever fuck u Obama haters
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Did you know that there are many animal species that function in homosexual pairings? Penguins, for example, will form male-male bonds and will adopt extra eggs from male-female penguin couples and will hatch the egg and care for the penguin as a 'normal' male-female couple would. Pretty cool, huh?

Edit: There are 450+ species that have gay members (some sources cite 1500 species). See this link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_display ing_homosexu...

&

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

@thomasbaxter30 ~ Umm...very very few people posting here (and certainly not ME!) are Obama-haters. Check my stream for and endless supply of evidence of this fact. I practically worship the dude. This is the #1 issue that I feel that my views differ from his.

And just because someone isn't a bigot when it comes to race doesn't mean they can't be a bigot when it comes to something else (like sexual preference). That said, I don't actually think Obama is a bigot.

@madtownmorse ~ So wait...only things which occur with an even 50% split are natural? So, like, left-handed people are unnatural? And blue-eyed people? Does what you said actually even make sense to YOU?!? Please try to think before you type.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Mulling it Over    says:

A lot of the argument here hinges on whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a choice, or if you believe it's something that you're born with.

There are mountains of evidence that homosexuality occurs in nature, and that it's not a choice. Arguments to the contrary are made from ignorance of the facts. In fact the Nazis made the argument from this basis when they persecuted homosexuals, they asserted homosexuality was a submission to our own animal instincts. Indeed, we're already late in the thread so I'll just drop the godwin now: I'm sure der furher would approve of the prop 8 victory.

People lacking in wisdom have rarely missed an opportunity to persecute and punish those different from them, and Prop 8 reminds us that this has not changed merely because it's 2008. The job of changing minds is the responsibility of those who can imagine a better future and are willing to work toward it.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Kat Lily    says:

I'm reading this.

I say cheers to you! If I could have had a camera to express how I felt about Prop 8, it would have been for all to see.

This photo is awesome. I hear your heart, and can say GOOD JOB, cause I feel the same way!

Now all we can do is wait. Wait and see if one day there's a time EVERY GOSH DARN PERSON can be anything they want, and marry another human being of any sex or race.

21st century people... 21st.
America people... land of the ....
choose what is wrong or right via government. A sad day for all of us, whether we believe it or not.

Thank you for sharing your views!!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

robert-purdom says:

Interesting!


Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

angelic_shrek says:

Yes! It is the big task in his shoulder. I don't think he can do it alone of his own charisma. All of you should support him to make him success. Without you all, your president is nothing. I am not American, but I love him too.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

daleallen45251 says:

this is worthy of being called a masterpiece ! but obama cannot help his actions because blacks hate whites and no amount of equality will bridge this ravine .
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

This is pretty wild...after 2+ years of Flickr-ing, this photo is officially my most "interesting" ever according to Flickr.

...even more interesting than kiwis & banana.

Thanks for all the comments, faves, etc...obviously this is all about the importance of the topic, so I couldn't be more thrilled. (Well, OK, if I found out that someone got Obama to look at this, I might be even more thrilled, but that seems unlikely. :-)
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Apple Pie® says:

surely there are far more important issues in the world than the issue of same sex marriage..
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

I agree 100%. But the fact that there are more important issues doesn't mean that this isn't an important issue.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain nobody in this thread has claimed that this is the single most important issue in the world...so I'm not sure I see your point.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

Carrie Taylor    says:

I live in California, and I too could not believe Prop 8 passed! This isn't the end.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

nancydrew1406 says:

Come on folks. It didn't pass in California because like MOST states, we are a centrist nation...most of us don't think marriage between gays folks is a contitutional right and the sad thing is if you keep pushing it - it will go federal and you'll sadly lose. You have the RIGHT to equal protection, not marriage. It's not discriminatory as you will see when (if) you get it to your state supreme court. Civil Unions are a compromise perhaps but that's what life is about - compromise. It's the IN YOUR FACE attitude we can't take and it the IN YOUR FACE activity that caused Proposition 8 to lose in the first place. Compromise folks. You get protection, the Christians get "marriage". Why YOUR WAY or NO WAY?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

If African Americans in the Deep South and other places "compromised" and accepted "separate but equal", this country would be such a different place, and not for the better....

If African Americans "compromised" on interracial marriage, maybe along the Mason-Dixon Line like the Missouri Compromise of 1850, we really would be two nations....

I agree that a certain level of "IN YOUR FACE" attitude can set back progress. I certainly understand the impatience, but care must be taken, and the newfound acceptability of civil unions IS progress (like I said above somewhere). But of course, some people would define a calm, reasoned voice and a gay group's very presence, asking for equality, as "IN YOUR FACE".

Peaceful marches, quiet gatherings, calm civil disobedience, Black people trying to register to vote: these things were seen as "IN YOUR FACE" once upon a time, not long before I was born (1967).

This is a civil rights struggle, so we cannot be silent and accept anything but equal rights. And yes, this heterosexual says "we" because this is a human rights issue, and I shall not be silent until my gay brothers and sisters have equal rights.

So, if "marriage" remains a legal word, gays and straights alike should be able to legally marry. The religious side of marriage remains the purview of a given religious group; in that sense there will never be equality, because some religious groups will never accept gayness, even though God made it so. Willful blindness is a longstanding trait of humanity.

If we cede the term "marriage" to religious groups to continue their religio-cultural war outside of the state sphere, and remove it from any and all legal unions, gay or straight, that's fine with me -- equality is achieved that way too, at the state level.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

Whether it's called a marriage, a holy union, a civil union, a merger, a partnership, sexual friendship, "shackin' up" -- the term does not change what my wife and I have with each other unless we allow it to affect us.

That there are married gay couples in MA and CA and Canada and Europe does not affect our marriage unless we allow it to do so inside our own heads.

Actually, the existence of gay marriage -- a validation of the Love between two -- makes us happier inside our own heads, so I guess our marriage is improved by it from that point of view.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

JulieFrick    says:

Bizzare math. By your logic, left-handed people or people with Down Syndrome or people with eyes that are two different colors are NOT NATURAL because they don't represent 50% of the population and therefore are not deserving of the same rights and privileges as the rest of us. This is not a 50/50 world, and those who refuse to acknowledge the fact that our diversity makes us stronger are themselves a dying breed.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

First, I hope you realize that most of the people (or at least many) posting here are not gay. You say "you" as if you think the only people upset about this are homosexual...and that's simply not the case. Second, the reason it doesn't work to say the Christians get "marriage" is that the states give out MARRIAGE licenses. If Church X was in charge of giving out Marriage Licenses and Church Y was in charge of giving out Homo Love Licenses and Church Z was in charge of giving out Polygamy Licenses while the state only gave out Civil Union Licenses to EVERYONE, it would be a very different situation. Only members of Group X would get "married". But the fact is that lots of non-Christians get "married" because that's what you do in this country. That's what it's CALLED regardless of your religion (someone might need to correct me on this...I'm not a very religious person, but I think my basic point here is correct). So no...I'm afraid "you can be kinda like us, but not quite like us" just isn't going to cut it. As others have said, it may take time...but compromise isn't always the answer just because it's convenient.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

tini21 says:

Great message and photographic expression of it.
I wasn't going to add a comment since what I wanted to say was pretty much eloquently expressed by others already. I would just like to point out a commentary made by Keith Olbermann on his show yesterday night addressing this very same issue.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

susser5 says:

I have known a fair amount of gay/lesbian people and had many conversations with them regarding their points of view. I don't know anyone who feels that they were born that way and don't think that is the way it works. Everyone who has been open to the dialog has shared with me that it has been a choice and one that they were happy, or comfortable with . Sometimes I believe there has been a relationship trauma so early in life that a person may not even know why they have fhe feelings that they do regarding relationships. This is obviously just an opinion, but Ione I wanted to put out there for you all to ponder.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

susser5 says:

I also hope that Mr. Obama wont be a Bigot
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

One chooses to be straight, too, because sexuality maturity begins to emerge around puberty.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

{.jerry-b.}    says:

Go Keith. My hero yesterday. ( should start a set of daily heroes, eh.)

@Phlewght -- I agree with you right down the line. But here's a suggestion .... the state keeps "marriage", and the non-law-based entities such as churches can dream up an equal but separate title. There's separate-but-equal I can live with, because the law would be the law (equal for all), and the churches et. al. can keep the separation of church and state that they enjoy (vis a vis tax exemptions, supremacy, righteousness, etc.)

** bitter ... party of one .... **
jb
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

d.rex    says:

I must say...the whole issue of whether or not people are "born gay" or choose to be gay has always seemed completely irrelevant to me. Ultimately, you CHOOSE who you love, so who gives a rip if the gender of the person you're most likely to fall for is determined by you genes or not?
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

sarah. reed.    says:

Thank you for saying it way better than I did!!!
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

phlewght    says:

That may be what needs to happen, because the likelihood of removing 'marriage' from the long history of law is pretty slim.

Religious entities can teach about "real marriage" vs. "pretend marriage" -- you know, like "real America" vs. wherever we Obama voters live...!

Strange; not my experience at all. I certainly would have had to choose to be gay, but I did not have to choose my attraction to women -- it's always been there.

There are some who claim that everyone is to some degree bisexual, and that may be. I must admit that it may even be possible of me, but I'd guess that I am no less than 80% straight, and probably more. Not really a choice. So some closer to 50-50 like mrs. reed may need to choose which way to go for a monogamous relationship, but if one is strongly to one side or the other by conditioned predilection, inborn design, whatever, a conscious choice cannot undo the unconscious drive.

I guess the reason it makes a difference to me is in combating the religious ideas that all gay people choose to BE gay, that hetero is the only "natural", God-ordained way. Behavior is a choice, but what you are is not, and it totally screws with literalist and other conservative religious traditions' views of God to realize that God just might have ordained it this way -- most are straight, some are gay, and we're just born that way.

To try to speak in the language of that kind of religious view -- God also ordained gayness and bisexuality as natural; it is not made from our Sin.

It's not irrelevant when people are legally trying to take away [or prevent recognition of] human rights based on their religious beliefs [EDIT: when they claim it's only bad or sinful behavior that we choose to engage in].
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )

prairiearth    says:

I just heard on the radio that Alabama voted to legalize incestuous marriages! Anyone know if there’s any truth to that? I can just imagine their campaign ads... "at least we aint no queers!"

I am a firm believer that I was BORN gay. I wanted to spend my time with my sister’s friends instead of the boys in my class. I remember my first crush was on a boy named Tom in third grade. It wasn’t until I started to realize that I was different that it became a “choice.” The choice to be open about it or to hide it had to be made. When I was in sixth grade I was called a faggot and beaten up because I expressed affection to a boy in my class it became pretty clear that the choice was to hide it. Basically I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. The other choices I made in my early life were to date girls and pretend to love them so as not to be labeled faggot or queer or homo. I chose to play foot ball and basket ball and work harder at everything I did. And I chose to hide my relationships with other males. That was until my senior year when I CHOSE to be open and honest about whom I am.

THAT my friend is the choice we make; the choice to hide and pretend or open up and be honest.

Also I wish we could change it to ‘homo-emotional’ instead of homosexual. I can and have had sex with women and men but I can not form the strong emotional bond with women that I can with another man.
Posted 13 months ago. ( permalink )