RAMMschwitz

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

This is the result of the latest BLBDS meeting at my place.

Attending were: Tim (gambort), Aaron (Darkspawn), Mike (Neonbug), myself, and a special guest appearance by none other than Shannon Ocean.

This was our most productive building session ever. I moved all my Lego out onto the deck which allowed ample room for four people and one giant to build, and the smokers didn't have to keep scarpering outside to light up. Sadly, no photos, though. Must try to remember that next time.

Please note that RAMM is not a Nazi organisation, and neither is the BLBDS, and none of it's membership have, or ever have been Nazis, although I have my doubts about Mike.

Sibley! (47 months ago | reply)

Subtle!

[jaster] (47 months ago | reply)

lulz

Portbrique (47 months ago | reply)

A bit less disturbing than Arkham Asylum.

-Frankie C- [deleted] (47 months ago | reply)

hehe.

-NickD- (47 months ago | reply)

I like the school house and the modular dorms, but in all seriousness, the gas chamber is going too far. Have some decency.

ѕроок (47 months ago | reply)

snerkle.

Scøtty (47 months ago | reply)

The difference between this MOC and Andrew Lee's MOC is that Andrew's had class. This doesn't.

Portbrique (47 months ago | reply)

Gas chamber too far? Or merely too close to the bone?

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

NickD - Comedy is not always pretty.

onetruescotty - How, specifically, does it 'lack class'? True, it's a little rushed and unfinished, but that's the nature of group builds. I think we did pretty well for a single evening's building.

-NickD- (47 months ago | reply)

The disclaimer makes me happy. Thank you.

Scøtty (47 months ago | reply)

I was hasty in that assumption, and also under the influence of many, many painkillers.

Any way, what I meant by "lacking class" was that if you guys had used some of the standard RAMM building techniques, like Andrew did in his MOC, with the standard RAMM guns on top of the wall, the dictatorial theme, etc., this build would have come off a lot more successfully in my opinion. its an interesting piece, but I don't really know how much I agree with it.

Its less your MOC, and more the standard 2 cent idiots who always leech on to who ever is bashing who at the moment.

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

I wasn't aware there were any 'standard RAMM building techniques'. I blame Tim.

Also, your aggrement isn't a requirement by me or any member of the BLBDS (if I may be so bold to speak for them). Thanks for commenting.

Scøtty (47 months ago | reply)

When all else fails, blame another member :P

while there are no "standard RAMM building techniques", there are surely some that are carried over from MOC to MOC.

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Actually the guns on the fence are as close to the RAMM guns as could be made with Al's collection. Both Al and I had been looking at Nick's RAMM stuff to try to make the buildings fit the general style. It's hard to extrapolate someone else's visuals to a new environment.

And this wasn't built to 'bash' anyone specifically, it was built to satirise many things including but not limited to fads, fanboys and nazis as well as to follow on from Andrew's MOC.

EDIT: And I fail to see how this misses a dictatorial theme :|

Portbrique (47 months ago | reply)

If there are no standard RAMM building techniques, then why did you suggest they be used? Did you have some great revelation in the intervening 7 minutes?

(Edited for clarity)

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

To be honest, I don't see much in Nick's models to suggest a dictatorial theme, either. They're just military equipment as far as I can tell, and all sorts of regimes use them.

The 'dictatorialness' seems to be a result of trying to tightly control who can and can't build RAMM, which is partly what we were spoofing.

I am, however, curious to see a more detailed RAMM backstory. I was mentioned in passing in the RAMM Flag thread, but I have been unable to find it anywhere. Does anyone have a link to it?

Shannon Ocean (47 months ago | reply)

Pure awesomeness!! Now THAT was fun to build. But why isn't anyone blaming the obvious scapegoat; you know, the Melbournian noob who only found out what RAMM was on the train to Al's place???

:D

peterlmorris (47 months ago | reply)

At first I found the sight of the gas chamber a little offensive. But that quickly passed, especially checking out the pics. And just thinking about the RAMM phenomenon in general.

Stupid jerky knee. I've been trying to get that fixed for a while. This kind of medicine helped. Which is weird, when you think about the fact that it was built by some drunken Aussies.

In fact, Dumb and Dumber has become even funnier to me now that Austria and Australia have become tangibly linked by Lego.

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

I think this had the potential to being a clever and edgily humorous MOC, but title and overt death camp elements push it over the edge.

This isn't like some Indiana Jones movie making fun of the Nazis, there's really nothing funny at all about concentration death camps, and I'm sorry that the builder(s) felt the need to share.

But of course, that's just my opinion.

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Magnus> I'm sorry but I don't at all share your opinion that taking some aspects of an obnoxious regime is funny while taking others is not. The Nazis had abhorrent policies and in my opinion cherry picking bits of it for laughs while ignoring the harsher aspects diminishes the impact of their policies and makes more of a mockery of the situation than what we did.

The Nazis were never fun and they weren't buffoons as a rule. What IJ does is turn a very serious situation into a cheap, socially acceptable laugh. I'd rather force people to think about it and consider what actually happened than distil it into a saccharine pill.

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

Gambort - I'm not sure if most people would find this "socially acceptable". And I'm sure that not everyone is laughing.

I also don't think the MOC forces us to think about the Holocaust in a particularly meaningful way. Come on, you knew what you were doing. It's playing with fire, it's stirring the shit, and you guys knew you'd get reactions when you built it and posted pix online, together all the little captions.

I will say this - this MOC and thread definitely has made me think a little about LEGO and what we personally find offensive. As I've said elsewhere, I think that's an interesting topic in and of itself.

I'm sure if TBB picked this up as a blog entry, you'd get lots of perspectives from across the community. In fact, the discussion could be much more interesting than the MOC itself.

I think it belongs here:

www.flickr.com/groups/whippingoutthebrick/

Of course, if you had only posted it there, you wouldn't have gotten as many people to see it, which I'm guessing was the whole point all along.

Catsy [CC] (47 months ago | reply)

I didn't find it "ha-ha" funny, but I did find it "wow that's really sick and wrong" funny. Which, if I'd built it, would probably be the reaction I was going for, assuming the reaction was the point at all. Frequently it's not, and sometimes people build fucked-up things on a lark when they're fucked up, for no other reason than because it would be fucked up.

I thought it was well-played, and the parts that are most "offensive" are the parts that make it effective satire. FWIW, my fiancee and son are Jewish. I'd show it to her but she wouldn't understand the in-joke; I doubt she'd be offended, as she has a sick sense of humor too. (We have a box with her mother's ashes, and she likes to introduce people to "mom", and joke about sprinkling them over the garden so with our next meal we can have "a little bit of mom in every bite".)

Although: I don't think it belongs in Classic Space.

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Read my comment a little more carefully, Magnus. This MOC is not the 'socially acceptable' version of Nazism; that's Indiana Jones. I'm fairly secure in thinking that this MOC paints a grimmer picture of Nazism than Spielberg's film(s).

I'm happy to stir the shit. It needs to be stirred once in a while. I've been over the 'happy families' AFOL thing for a very long time as it just diminishes everything to a lowest common denominator. It saddened me when Andrew B felt he needed to ask permission to post a political MOC. Most of the comments here are by adults and adults should be able to deal with adult concepts.

To wax lyrical a little I've always found it odd that while we call ourselves *A*FOLs most things with an *A* are immediately relegated to the 'what would the children think' category. If I want to play with children I'll go play with my nephew or niece. If I want to have an adult discourse involving plastic building toys I'll post as an AFOL to a community populated by AFOLs. If children see what I post then that's their parent's prerogative, not mine. Likewise I'm not even going to try to please everyone. It won't happen and I don't care for it to happen. End waxing.

As to your last comment I'm not planning on blogging this on TBB because a good majority of its readership are not adults or supervised children and because it's not an MOC of a standard I'd be willing to blog. Should someone else wish to post it I'm not going to try to stop them.

Tim

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

Perhaps you misunderstood my point, I was respectfully disagreeing with your assessment that:

"What IJ does is turn a very serious situation into a cheap, socially acceptable laugh."

Even though that may have been intended as such, I'm sure lots of people won't take it that way; and the builders can reasonably have been expected to anticipate as much.

I'm all for the AFOL community engaging in more "adult" issues. It isn't that I think this MOC is "kid inappropriate" - I think it's just a little inappropriate period.

I'm not above shit stirring myself (although not usually as an AFOL) - haha don't even get me started on the war in Iraq. I guess I just don't think that this kind of humor is the most constructive way to get people thinking about something so serious in any useful, new ways.

As far as "political LEGO" I found the Extraordinary Rendition vig to be far more thought provoking, and as for funny "RAMM satire" I was more amused by Onosendai's MOC from 2 weeks ago.

I'll shut up now before I encourage anyone to build a CBU interrogation facility.

Ɍaillery (47 months ago | reply)

I agree somewhat with Gambort, and I think that there is a possiblity that this could be offensive (let's not forget some other posts from this same source that have had a similar effect). I find it interesting and funny in a dark way.

I've said this before: "try to tone it down next time."

-NickD- (47 months ago | reply)

As much as I would like to flip a shit, I'm not. I'm cool with you guys screwing around as long as people don't get offended and I don't get called Hitler. Then it's too far and not funny.

onosendai2600 (47 months ago | reply)

My assessment is as follows:

1.) Drunken group lego builds are pure awesome, anybody who doesn't believe so is an idiot. Considering I've been 'involved' in a few, the ammount of lego real estate puked out my Tim and the boys is damn impressive.

2.) RAMM, like all other lego fads is a prime target for ridicule. The fact that beyond its mere popularity there exists tension from both the way in which mocs are built (permission, dictatorship) and the subject matter (facist regimes, nazism, etc.) only makes it more appetizing as shit stirring material.

3.) There's much that I would and can critique from both a thematic perspective and that of a builder. As I have said for a group build this is pretty amazing. Had this been solely Tim's (or any of the other's) build it would be certainly viewed in a different light. That being said the comments below should be taken with a grain of salt:

- The gate is easily my favorite part. I'm okay with the black fences and the gate itself but feel it needs some dark bley tossed in the mix.

- The ammount of heraldy while necessary for satire and for RAMM is tad over kill. It would have fit better and been more impactful had there been a single large flag in the middle of the compound.

- The lack of RAMM personel is sorely disapointing. In fact the lacking number of figs is kinda weaksauce in general. Ideally there'd be soldiers marching poor RAMM kiddies in and out of the various parts of the compound and the sense of oppression would have been far greater. Where are the trains importing folks into 'reeducation'? What happens to those that flunk out? Where are the support vehicles? Where are the goosestepping soldiers? Why is there no back wall?

Of course had this been realistically built as a death camp and less a satircal 'school' people would probably be even more up in arms.

DARKspawn (47 months ago | reply)

Once again Australian humour grates against the tender sensibilities of the world at large. These blokes can't take a joke. I got permission from my wife to go over to a mates house, have a few beers and a bit of a joke - that's all the permission I need. I get a little concerned at people's motives when they start telling me what I can & can't do with my free time, it's not my fault if your mothers won't let you out at night. FYI Nazis are comedy fodder here in Australia, you can't go 30 minutes of primetime without a Nazi joke on any channel here; I invite you all to lighten up & join the party.

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

"It's playing with fire, it's stirring the shit, and you guys knew you'd get reactions when you built it and posted pix online"

And even though you knew that, you still chose to react. Too easy.

"And I'm sure that not everyone is laughing."

That goes without saying. Not everyone has to laugh at a joke for it to be funny. Such is the nature of humour, particularly satire.

"I also don't think the MOC forces us to think about the Holocaust in a particularly meaningful way."

That's because it was never intended as a commentary on the Holocaust, dopey. Have you never heard of the term 'metaphor'?

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

reply to onosendai2600 -

1) Agreed, and the amount of building we got through surprised me too. My 10yo son was out there for part of the evening with us, and he outbuilt us all (even got into the RAMMschwitz spirit).

2) It's not so much fads that are ripe for ridicule, I've hopped on a few bandwagons myself - they're fun - it's more when people take things FAR too seriously. Kudos to Nick for lightening up - you're alright, mate.

3) Agree about the heradlry. Also agree about the lack of minifigs - the blame for that falls entirely on me. I was going to reshoot with a bit more of a poulated model, but I lost interest, and really wanted to finish off the Henchbot. What you see is pretty much the result of the evening's build, although I did tweak a few details before shooting.

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Magnus> IJ=Indiana Jones, not RAMMschwitz. I assure you than none of the BLBDC members had anything to do with the nazis in any Indiana Jones films or as earlier stated with actual nazis.

Al> I disagree, I think all (or almost all) fads are ripe for ridicule no matter how they're arranged. It's just that this one presented such a perfect opportunity via Andrew's diorama. To some degree we were mocking caveracers at the second last one.

Also, to be fair to Magnus I did add Nazis to my list of things being mocked near the top of this thread. I kind of figure anything which shows how bad they were is mocking them.

Andrew> I saw the heraldry as part of the 'playset' feel. In the same way that TLG might put a batman logo on all parts of a batcave playset.

Slice151 (47 months ago | reply)

I am offended that anyone would actually find any of this offensive! Lego is serious business, not offensive buisness.

To be fair though, I laugh at both Nazis and Jews alike, that way both are treated fairly.

On a constructive note, now that we have the Agents line, hook that thang up with some barbed wire, yo. Also, go populate that mofo. It looks like a ghost town.

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

"Once again Australian humour grates against the tender sensibilities of the world at large. These blokes can't take a joke. I got permission from my wife to go over to a mates house, have a few beers and a bit of a joke - that's all the permission I need. I get a little concerned at people's motives when they start telling me what I can & can't do with my free time, it's not my fault if your mothers won't let you out at night. FYI Nazis are comedy fodder here in Australia, you can't go 30 minutes of primetime without a Nazi joke on any channel here; I invite you all to lighten up & join the party"

I'm not suggesting that you can't build this stuff. But you guys built it to cause a bit of a stir, so well, here you go. I mean, a couple of guys decide to throw back a few beers and build a LEGO concentration camp together, and post it online - what did you honestly expect people would say?

And I wasn't going to suggest that this was an "Australian thing", but since you brought it up, perhaps this does demonstrate a fundamental culture divide? Maybe you guys are used to joking about literally everything. But you've got to know that not everyone is going to be cool with that.

And if you honestly don't particularly care that not everyone is cool with it, why are you trying to defend it?

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

I don't care if people are offended but if they are offended I am going to explain why I think they shouldn't be. It's the same thing with people who support political viewpoints differing from my own. I don't care that they hold them (with some exceptions like blatant racism) but I'm not going to stop trying to convert them to my own (superior of course :P) viewpoint.

As for stirring... of course I thought it would stir. I even think that's probably the best thing about it. You don't make soup without stirring.

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

"Maybe you guys are used to joking about literally everything."

Your contribution to this thread has certainly given me a few chuckles.

"And if you honestly don't particularly care that not everyone is cool with it, why are you trying to defend it? "

If you choose to be offended by this, that's entirely your prerogative, and far be it from me to tell you to not be offended. Please, continue foaming.

DARKspawn (47 months ago | reply)

I think the crux of this is (and one I think some people are missing) is that this MOC has little to do with the Holocaust and even less to do with RAMM, but everything to do with taking the piss out of the community. Perhaps RAMM and Nazis were not a good choice of vehicle for this idea, but there you go, that's alcohol for you ; ) I have to give kudos to NickD for his tollerance and sense of humour. What's more is I had decidedly little to do with this final presentation. It appears that my own contribution was deemed far too "off the wall" and "risky" to include, personally I think it would have added a certain Pythonesque value, but that's just me. But I stand by my fellow BLBDC members' right to build shoddy MOCs, and have no objection to it being posted online, submitting it to the Classic Space and other LEGO pools might be taking it a step too far, but then you have to go out on a limb to get the fruit don't you?

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Well it's rare that I do it but I did have to think of the children when it came to Cher... the woman is innately traumatic.

Captain_Underpants (47 months ago | reply)

My apologies Aaron. I wasn't sure if your minifigs were intended to go in the model. I do intend to record them here in the near future, along with Mike's little tank and my son's efforts from the evening.

I also found the perfect Arnie head. It's almost exactly the same as the one you used, but in yellow :)

And Aaron is correct. The descriptions are entirely mine, and are not necessarily endorsed by the greater BLBDC.

Also, the pools I submitted them to are free to delete them if they want, and I won't object. Probably a bit late now though :)

DARKspawn (47 months ago | reply)

Appologies accepted, Al =) I envisioned Arnie & Rambo herding "guests" into a Cher concert, how Jack Sparrow fits into the picture I'm really not sure. The yellow head would definitely be preferable =)

@Tim, yeah, imagine where this thread would be if Cher actually did feature in this dio... *shudders

Karf Oohlu (47 months ago | reply)

Oh man, I tried to read the whole stream, but my brain started hurting, you guyts are having too much fun here.

I bet this has hit Explore, with all this traffic.

I have only ONE COMPLAINT, I live here tooo, I would've got nicely pissed and all, next time you buggers do this I better get an invite or I'll be really unhappy....

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

"I think the crux of this is (and one I think some people are missing) is that this MOC has little to do with the Holocaust and even less to do with RAMM, but everything to do with taking the piss out of the community. Perhaps RAMM and Nazis were not a good choice of vehicle for this idea, but there you go, that's alcohol for you ; ) "

DARKspawn,

What you guys seem to be missing is that this was a joke taken too far.

You could have taken the piss out of the community much more successfully with a little Goldmanesque subtlety - without turning a RAMM fanboy camp into a Nazi death camp. Don't blame the alcohol - people are responsible for what they build, and post online.

"I don't care if people are offended but if they are offended I am going to explain why I think they shouldn't be. It's the same thing with people who support political viewpoints differing from my own. I don't care that they hold them (with some exceptions like blatant racism) but I'm not going to stop trying to convert them to my own (superior of course :P) viewpoint."

Gambort,

Fair enough, and thanks for the civil debate on this. I was thinking about this thread last night , and why this seems offensive to me - whereas the depiction of the Nazis in the Indiana Jones movies doesn't, and I think it comes down to this:

I think there is a fine, but important distinction between mocking the Nazis and making light of what they did in the camps. And I don't think you guys kept that in mind when you were building this.

'If you choose to be offended by this, that's entirely your prerogative, and far be it from me to tell you to not be offended. Please, continue foaming."

Captain Underpants ,

Nope, I'm prett y much done with you, as far as this thread is concerned.

[jaster] (47 months ago | reply)

tl;dr

gambort (47 months ago | reply)

Magnus> This may have been a joke gone too far for your personal views on acceptability but that is not the same as being a joke gone too far. I'll note that there's a good list of people posting here who have found amusement in it who weren't involved in its creation.

We could likewise have done it many other ways. For that matter we could have made many other things. We chose to make this. I had a bundle of fun making it and I'd happily repeat the experience if I could have that time again.

Furthermore don't assume that we did or didn't keep something in mind. The question "should we include a gas chamber?" was raised and the consensus between Al and myself was a definite yes. The idea of leaving out the really dirty bits never for a moment crossed my mind.

PS. With all due respect to Keith I don't see his stuff as subtle in the slightest.

Catsy [CC] (47 months ago | reply)

Agreed on Keith. Part of what makes Keith's Iron Reich such effective satire (and such great fun) is how much of an over-the-top caricature it is.

DARKspawn (47 months ago | reply)

Magnus your missing my point, this is a bit of fun, if you can't handle it, don't winge about it, walk tall & ignore it. From a man who's creations glamorise violence and warfare as "toys" and "models" I think you have far too high of an opinion of your righteousness. Let me tell you about my Grandfather who fought in the pacific theatre during WW2, fought REAL Nazis; after the war he got the shudders when someone pointed a stick at him. He hated guns & all toys representing war, yet you insult his memory & those of all veterans with your very selective wrath. He would say your models are going to far, that war SHOULD NEVER be glamorised, in fact he said it many times before he died (and constantly took the piss out of the Nazi regime). If Mel Brooks can laugh at the Holocaust (& freely gives permission for others to, aswell) then I can't see the problem.

DARKspawn (47 months ago | reply)

I mean "insult" figuratively I don't mean that you actually do in my opinion, obviously, all your models are great imo ; ) I just think this has been blown way out of proportion.

magnus_lauglo (47 months ago | reply)

Well, I'm not sure what my personal view on a "humorous" concentration camp MOC has to do with your grandfather somehow running into some lost Nazis in the Pacific theatre.

Thank you for your kind words about my MOCs, I'd be happy to discuss the real world implications of them if you'd like to do that in another thread.

But anyway, I'm off on a roadtrip to catch some fine, vintage rock n roll. See you all next week.

Play well, and play nice.

:)

psiaki (47 months ago | reply)

wow, how do I always miss these things?

I have to say I really like the RAMM flags on everything and the whole fence is just spectacular.

now I've got an idea....

-NickD- (47 months ago | reply)

I hate to continue the drama, especially after trying to stay out of it, but I need to explain my position.

I'm not cool with this, whatsoever. The only reason I'm not up in arms about it is because I know there's no way to change your minds about the theme, no matter how much I explain it to you. Now I know I'm fighting a losing battle and that it all paints a bad picture of me, but I'm going to do the things the way I want to do them, just like you are. It's no different than when you guys are being dicks to younger builders. At least I tell them no nicely. So do whatever you want, and when someone comes to me after becoming offended, I'll just point them back your way.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that if you guys after all this still have any respect for me, would you be kind enough to not ruin something that I really enjoy building in? I started building RAMM to get away from spacers telling me how to do things. I'd rather not have that happen again.

Thank you for the disclaimer at least.

-Nick