teaching oppression on Flickr

Vegan Butterfly says:

Very sad :( ...
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

Kim The Star Princess says:

Is what PETA does ok? www.petakillsanimals.com
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

If they can find a home for the animal but choose euthanasia anyways, then no it's not. But just because PETA may do wrong things doesn't mean anything it says isn't true. CCF also does bad things. To both non-humans and humans: ConsumerDeception.com
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

Kim The Star Princess says:

I would agree; I do believe that PETA definitely brings some truths to light. However, I feel that they way that they get their message across is completely UN-ethical. It's not right to fund destructive or violent terrorist groups to do one's dirty work, nor is it right to yell at people about eating chickens when one belongs to a group that has euthanized thousands of animals with what seems like minimal effort to place them in homes. I would also agree that CCF does bad things, and I have my problems with them, too, for example, with their arguments about trans-fats being less of an issue than they are. Just because they promote some questionable things does not mean that they don't make me think about another group's (PETA's) hypocritical actions. There is one issue that I don't have a problem with regarding the CCF, and that is their ties to a tobacco company. I'm of the opinion that we really ought to just take the warning labels off of everything (cigarettes, in-edible ink cartridges, etcetera) and let the problem of stupidity solve itself.
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

arimoore says:

Here, a better (non-PETA) link for the above photo!
Pulling the Reins on the Horse-Drawn Carriage Industry
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

"It's not right to fund destructive or violent terrorist groups"

**Destroying cages to free victims of torture is not "terrorism". Cages don't feel anything. However the sentient beings who are being tortured, terrorized, and killed, do feel. The ones who are torturing these innocent beings are the terrorists. ALF is non-violent. Humans are animals too. They are sentient beings and ALF philosophy says violence towards humans is still wrong. ALF does not hurt people. Was it terrorism when people broke the law in the past to free slaves? You don't really believe inanimate objects (cages, locks, computers full of animal-torture data, slaughter machinery, torture tools, etc) should be more protected from harm then the innocent beings who suffer from them do you??

"to do one's dirty work, nor is it right to yell at people about eating chickens when one belongs to a group that has euthanized thousands of animals with what seems like minimal effort to place them in homes."

**Well then I guess NO one has the right to free speech since every human being is a hypocrite in one way or another. Is it wrong to speak out against the health issues of smoking if the person drinks alcohol? Is it wrong to speak out against child abuse if the person abuses his wife? Yes of course it's wrong, and hypocritical...but surely that doesn't mean someone should lose their freedom of speech! I think they DO have the right to say it, but you also have the right to point out what YOU think is wrong as well. By the way, they don't euthanize animals for pleasure like how people eat animals...it's very hard for them to euthanize animals. (I'm not defending them, they should look harder for homes, although there will never be enough homes. The people creating this issue are breeders and people who buy animals from petstores. If all shelters became no-kill we would probably have to have wal-mart sized warehouses with animals going insane for years in confinement, either that or people would just abandon or kill animals themselves because there's no where else to put them. We need to get over this "other species are slaves to own/use" mentality.

"I would also agree that CCF does bad things, and I have my problems with them, too, for example, with their arguments about trans-fats being less of an issue than they are."

**Did you know they support advertising tobacco and alcohol to youth and have campaigned AGAINST Mothers Against Drunk Driving??
I just can't stand them because they say "PETA's telling people what to do!! BAD!" when they do the same thing! Those industries (junk food, meat, tobacco, etc) are always telling people what to do (at the expense of their health and lives!!) and yet they are blasting PETA for doing it? At least PETA is doing it for ETHICAL reasons and not profit at the expense of lives both human and non-human.

"I'm of the opinion that we really ought to just take the warning labels off of everything (cigarettes, in-edible ink cartridges, etcetera) and let the problem of stupidity solve itself.""

**And I'm the opposite, lol. I'd rather see cigarettes be banned completely. Also if they remove warnings off of everything they better make it so that people can't sue anymore for when they get sick or hurt from stuff without warning labels!
But I don't want to let "stupidity" solve itself because I don't want to sit by and watch loved ones hurt and kill themselves. I don't think companies should have the right to kill people slowly, even if they agree to it.

Maybe if you want to debate more we should take it to Flickr mail so that we aren't flooding arimoore's photo with this stuff? lol
Posted 31 months ago. ( permalink )

trackergirl99 says:

to me,this horse looks well taken care of,he is round,has a sleek coat and his equipent looks well fitted.He is a work horse,police horses stand every day & night in Times Square,people pet them and like to see horses.Today there were droves of people riding,and the wait to get on a horse& carriage was up to 1 hr.Obviously there are thousands of people who seem to enjoy it,and the aspca was right there the whole day and seemed not to have a problem.
Posted 27 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

The horse is still being exploited, controlled, and enslaved. If a human slave is healthy and well-fed, is human slavery okay? What if one and awhile the slave gets a back massage?
Posted 27 months ago. ( permalink )

arimoore says:

amen, vegan butterfly. trackergirl99, unfortunately, ASPCA doesn't always act in animals' best interests - though i can't speak for them in this case, and am not aware of why they were involved. in any case, i think that if you read about the lives of animals forced to work in these jobs, you'll agree that they'd be a lot happier just hanging out with others of their kind, free-living. after all, they exist for their own reasons, not for ours. we have no right to exploit their labor just because they have no way to fight us for their freedom.
Posted 27 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

it's hard to "force" a 2,000 lb animal to do anything it doesn't want to. and horses that are first brought onto the street are evaluated immediately. you'd be surprised to learn that animals with a job are actually happier than those "hanging out on the couch". kind of like people. yeah, hanging out on the couch is fun for a while, but a lifetime of that? and "wild" horses die more frequently from starvation and thirst than any carriage horse does...
Posted 26 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

Actually it's not very hard. People do it all the time. It's called "breaking". You make the animal give up and submit.

So if I took a homeless person and made him into a slave, gave him food and shelter, but made him spend the rest of his life doing whatever I wanted him to do to serve my interests, it's okay since he will live a longer life? Who cares if freedom means you don't live as long. NO ONE is a slave. I would rather die at 30 a free woman than live 100 years as someone's personal property.
Posted 26 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

yeah, horses were "broken" 100 years ago- thanks to kinder and simpler methods, we work with our horses- not against them. and terms have changed- it's called "starting" a horse. and what makes you the god of all that is good and right? do you have a dog? a cat? aren't they your entertainment slaves? what right have you to say that i can't use my animal in a way that is fun and engaging for the both of us? don't you "make" your dog fetch or "roll over" and isn't that slavery too?.. . you're providing a home and shelter and food- but the dog can't exactly come and go as he pleases... wow- that sounds like slavery to me.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

Every single horse "trainer" or "owner" I know still calls it breaking.

"what makes you the god of all that is good and right?"

**Hey I'm not the one supporting taking control of another's life. What makes YOU the God of non-humans?

"do you have a dog? a cat?"

**Nope. But I do support adopting the ones that are already here. I do not support breeding dogs and cats to be "pets". Non-humans are not our property. If I adopt a human child that was a victim of slavery, does that mean I support slavery? No. So If I adopt a dog that was victim of the pet industry, it doesn't mean I actually support the pet industry. I believe in being a GUARDING, not an OWNER.
GuardianCampaign.org

"what right have you to say that i can't use my animal"

**He or she is not YOUR animal. Everyone belongs to THEMSELVES.

"don't you "make" your dog fetch or "roll over""

**Nope.

"you're providing a home and shelter and food- but the dog can't exactly come and go as he pleases... wow- that sounds like slavery to me."

**So caring for children means children are slaves? Guardians provide homes and food for children, but they child can't do whatever he or she wants. Is it slavery? No. Dogs are not wild animals. They have been domesticated over MANY years. Do you believe in human slavery? If not, does that mean that all children should be allowed to run free?

I believe in CARING FOR and PROTECTING animals, not owning and dominating them. If animals are mere property, then animal cruelty does not exist.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

then you don't know very many trainers. taking control means that i control their excercise, their entertainment, their food and their health. so, you're right. i guard my horse- i don't own him. he just does exactly what i want him to...
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

*swoosh*...right over your head.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

arimoore says:

scampbell_sc, would you do to a human what you do to your horse? Would you buy a human from someone who raises humans for sale, keep that human confined (however comfortably), and train that human (by whatever means) to do what you wanted him or her to do?

If not, why would you do it to a horse? What is it exactly about horses that makes it okay to "breed", buy, sell, confine, train, and otherwise use them - but not humans?
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

we are actually talking about a horse. an animal that has been domesticated for thousands of years. personally, i would find it cruel to take an animal that has been raised within the comfort of human care and throw it back out into the wild and say, "there you go- figure it out!" you wouldn't just "free" all the domesticated dogs and cats, would you? why should i "set my DOMESTICATED horse free"? i am not a cruel person and i am not an abusive person. (by the way for vegan butterfly- i have an adopted dog, and he used to ride on my carriage with me. his name is The Cheat, because when i adopted him he was only a couple days from euthanasia, but i suppose he's an animal abuser too, because he rode on the carriage).

on another note- suppose i set my horse free? where to? please. tell me one last habitat that is safe for wild horses? because i think if you were to ask my horse, he would tell you that he likes his warm comfy stall, his turnout paddock, his sweet feed, his fresh hay, his fresh water, his cozy blankets, his fulfilling job, the carrots, the attention, the excercise, the love... should i go on? i doubt he'd tell you he wants to search for hundreds of miles for water, shelter, food... i think he likes having it handed to him on a silver platter, and the small favor that i ask, and yes, i ASK* of my horse isn't too much to bear.

*i have never forced my horse to work in extreme conditions, i have never forced my horse to work when he's sick, lame, or sore. i ask him, and when you spend as much time with them as we do- you read them, you know their language and you know when they say "no". i doubt you can say so much for yourself you "animal lover" you...
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

No one is talking about setting already existing animals free. Having a living animal isn't an excuse to breed MORE. It's breeding animals for slavery that's the problem.

"by the way for vegan butterfly- i have an adopted dog, and he used to ride on my carriage with me. his name is The Cheat, because when i adopted him he was only a couple days from euthanasia, but i suppose he's an animal abuser too, because he rode on the carriage"

**Dogs don't understand. If a dog is running loose and walks onto someone's property...should he be charged with tresspassing? What if your dog takes something of yours without your permission...are you going to call the cops on the thief? HUMANS are the ones capable of higher reasoning and an understanding of a compassionate and civilized society. If we can morally do whatever non-humans do, then we can morally be cannibals, we can beat, neglect, or kill our young, and we can kill others over territory and physically assault people when we are angry at them.

"suppose i set my horse free? where to? please. "

**A pasture? A horse can be allowed to live in peace instead of his/her every movement being controlled. My parents have a dog....is it bad that he lives in the home as a companion instead of being forced to pull a sled in the Iditarod?

"because i think if you were to ask my horse, he would tell you that he likes his warm comfy stall, his turnout paddock, his sweet feed, his fresh hay, his fresh water, his cozy blankets, his fulfilling job, the carrots, the attention, the excercise, the love... should i go on? "

**He doesn't know anything else. I doubt he prefers to have his movements controlled than to be allowed to roam in an enclosed space. Stop when he wants. Turn left when he wants...

"i doubt he'd tell you he wants to search for hundreds of miles for water, shelter, food... "

**Really? Because there are alot of humans who have chose to work for their survival so that they can be free, instead of having water, shelter and food given to them while they serve their Masters as slaves. Do you know the excuses you are giving are the EXACT SAME excuses humans have given in the past for enslaving black people?

**"i doubt you can say so much for yourself you "animal lover" you... "

"Oh because I don't make animals pull me around because I'm too lazy to use my own legs I'm not an animal lover? I guess if you don't own a human slave you aren't a "people person".
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

i realize now that i am talking to a 16 year old idealist who has never had to pay a bill or take any sort of adult responsibility. we can talk when you grow up and see the world without rose colored glasses. my horse knows the "freedom" of pasture, and more often than not he's bored. so, why don't you continue your teenage battle against the world. because there's nothing more than the world enjoys than the crunch of really sweet dreams.

i will not tell you how to run your life or what to believe in, i was merely attempting to expose you to another point of view. kindly grant me the same consideration. you have no right judge me, as i don't judge you.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

"i realize now that i am talking to a 16 year old idealist who has never had to pay a bill or take any sort of adult responsibility. "

**Uh right. I'm 22, working, and I have bills to pay. Teenage battle? WTF? Who are you talking about?
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

oh sorry- TWENTY-TWO! congratulations! i didn't realize i was so far off from sixteen. make it to 40 and we'll talk.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

Wow speciesism AND ageism. Are you going to bring my race and gender into this too?
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

my comment is directed at your immaturity. when you go through more of your life, you will realize that there are things in this life that you cannot change, and eventually you will realize that your concept of this world is skewed. only time will change that. as you get older, as you experience more, as your life grows, you will broaden your mind and be more receptive to differences between you and other people. until then, good luck!
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

I never said I thought I could change EVERY instance of cruelty in the world. I know I can change SOME. I already have, therefore I've already succeeded and am continuing to help. Why do people fight racism when it will obviously never be 100% gone. It's not all or nothing. EVERY little bit helps.
My aging won't make me "realize" that helping others is some sort of waste of time. The only thing that will change is my methods, as I learn the which ways of helping others are most efficient.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

arimoore says:

scampbell_sc, I think it's really uncool that you're dissing people for trying to be ethical and compassionate.

I also think it's unfair of you to automatically assume that our compassion is somehow motivated by immaturity. Most animal rights folks do a LOT of reading and soul searching to reach the conclusions we do. I think maybe you should do some reading about animal rights; then maybe you'll be better able to pass judgment.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

now here's the funny thing. i am also a supporter of animal rights (as
well as humans). i volunteer for PAWS (Pets Are Worth Saving in
Chicago). I have an adult adopted dog and cat. I bought my carriage horse at an auction, bidding $500 over a slaughter buyer. So I have a problem with little girls trying to tell me that I am cruel and an animal abuser.
I also love animals, that's why I've devoted my life to my horse.

So trying to defend that nutjob who criticizes my life when she has
NO idea who I am or what I am about, yes, I will start to get personal
with her and I will defend myself. The sad thing is she is totally
unwilling to talk to me- just accuse me of being a bad person. And yet, I am attacked by people who are completely ignorant of my horse's story- because, personally, I feel I saved his life.

I'm done talking to you people. Unless you want to talk reasonably and consider what I am saying, then you can continue your crazy rants and live on in ignorance, judging everyone you meet before you even learn about them.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

arimoore says:

what you did for the horse you rescued is wonderful, and i certainly don't mean to discount it. however, your calling me and vegan_butterfly "little girls" and "nutjobs" just because we would rather see all animals on sanctuaries or free-living, instead of being trained, worked, confined, and owned, is kind of sad.

it sounds like what you're into is called animal welfare, not animal rights. there is a difference. i'm sorry we didn't communicate it well to you, but the difference is there.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

amrou5 [deleted] says:

arimoore- first of all, since i haven't been having a discussion with you throughout all of this, i wasn't referring to you as crazy or immature. that was directed at vegan_butterfly. and thank you for pointing out the difference between rights and welfare- you're right, i was claiming to be for animal rights, when i meant welfare. My intention though, is for my horse to be apart of my life, not out in some field where he and i don't get to spend time together- because let's face it, i'm not rich, and it costs A LOT of money to feed a horse. generally, i don't even like to get into a conversation with non-horse people, because they simply don't understand what it takes to care for a horse. (an example, multiply a dog by about a thousand, and you may have an idea of how much a horse eats a day (between 20-45 lbs of hay and grain a day), how much they excrete (15-20lbs a day), how much they weigh (1,500-2,500 lbs) and how much vet bills are...)

the truth of the matter is, throwing horses out into a field and "freeing" them can actually cause severe depression in herds. there are studies showing that an animal that has worked for five years, whether just being ridden in shows, police horses, carriage horses, and pleasure horses, if put into a field and not touched, after one year will significantly see a decline in their health. mainly due to depression. now, you can believe me or not, but considering that i've spent the last 20 years of my life around horses, i've learned quite a bit. but i'm not willing to quit learning. so, if you know something about horses that i don't, then, please by all means, share.

but please don't disregard what i am saying. i agree that there are some areas where horses shouldn't be allowed (and outside central park is one of them). there are some people that should never be allowed to touch a horse. there are some horses that shouldn't be on the street. but. and again, believe me if you like, there are some horses who really seem to love their job. there are some drivers who do everything they can to make their horses comfortable and happy. there are some people who have horses that are the best thing to ever happen to them. horses want to be apart of our families. and there are some of us who make sure they are.
Posted 25 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Stop Animal Abuse in the Name of Entertainment!, and we'd love to have this added to the group!
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

Vegan Butterfly says:

Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Speciesism, and we'd love to have this added to the group!
Posted 10 months ago. ( permalink )

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teaching oppression

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trackergirl99 says:

Vegan Butterfly says:

Kim The Star Princess says:

Vegan Butterfly says:

Kim The Star Princess says:

arimoore says:

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trackergirl99 says:

Vegan Butterfly says:

arimoore says:

amrou5 [deleted] says:

Vegan Butterfly says:

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