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Update 8/4/08 - Light at the end of the tunnel?

The planes were parked here
Update 8/4/08 - Light at the end of the tunnel? by _Allen_.
The top photo is exactly like one of the many photos an Air Force police officer made me delete from my camera last Thursday.

The reason he gave for making me delete the photo was that "It shows my perimeter fence and my flightline".

The lower half of the image above is the same area viewed in Google Earth with WAY more detail than I could ever hope to capture shooting from the racetrack. The Google Earth image is available to anyone on the planet earth with an internet connection and a computer. However my photo of the fence and the flightline is a security problem.

For the record, I was not on the air base. I was on private property (Las Vegas Raceway) across the street from the airbase and I was not taking photos of anything that was not clearly visible with the naked eye. Earlier in the day another Air Force police officer said it was perfectly legal to be there and to take photographs from there and asked us to "just stay on the racetrack side of the street" because the other side of the street is Air Force property.

I want to make it clear that the police officer that made me delete my photos was as nice as could be, acted in a very professional manner, never yelled or used foul language .... we even chatted about airshows and military airplanes ... but (in my opinion) he was clearly confused about photographer's rights and what constitutes a security risk to his air base. I could have challenged him and refused to delete the images and I'm sure I would have been 100% within my rights to do so ... but frankly I was not up for the fight at that moment ... after all this was the same day my truck was broken into and I was mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted... deleting the images seemed like the easiest way to avoid a problem. I'm not entirely sure but I would not be surprised if he was also out of his jurisdiction. It seems strange to me that Air Force police would have authority over a civilian that is not on Air Force property. ... but that's another issue entirely for another day.

Stories like this are becoming more and more common and it's very troubling to me as someone that loves to go out and take photos. Every incident that I've had like this and almost every incident that I've read about have one thing in common, the police/security people are convinced that they are doing the right thing and they are acting in good faith the protect (whatever they are meant to be protecting) and in most cases they are very nice and reasonable ... but they are still wrong in many cases and they are (with or without intent) often trampling on the constitutional rights of people just out having a good time with their hobby (or business), photography.

Something needs to be done to educate photographers and police/security personnel about what our rights and responsibilities are and what really constitutes a security risk.

I don't know what the answer to this problem is ... but I am sure that if we just let the problem keep getting worse there will come a day when we'll be afraid to leave your houses with our cameras. A writer from JPG magazine said it pretty well ""In a post 9/11 age of paranoia and suspicion, public photography is increasingly seen as threatening, or mistaken as criminal...Amateur photographers are the documentarians of real life. We capture our world to help us understand it. We are not a threat."

I'm always talking about this issue on my podcast, I think it's probably one of the more important issues concerning photographers today.

I started a website tonight dedicated to this issue ... I'm not sure what will become of the website but I'm hoping to use it as an educational tool for photographers and those people tasked with keeping us safe. For now I've just posted some basic information on the site and some resources for photographers. You can check it out at www.photographyisntacrime.com/

Update: 5/15/08:
Entire text (in audio format) of the letter to the Air Force is here

Update 5/22/08:
All emails to the Nellis Public Affairs Office since May 12th have gone unanswered.

Today I have I have written to an attorney that specializes in photography law to see if she is interested in pursuing this matter.

I will keep you posted.

Update 5/30/08:

Email from the 99 ABW/ PA Office
I have talked with several individuals regarding this matter and before I give you the official response I would like to ask you to remain patient for a couple more days. We will give you an official response next week.

Update 6/09/08:

I just got off the phone with the 99ABW Public Affairs Office.
It seems they are putting the finishing touches on the response letter to me at this moment and I can expect to see it possibly later today or tomorrow. The public affairs officer stated that he was not able to tell me what the response will say until it is actually finalized but that he thinks I "will be happy with the response".

Update 6/12/08:

Still nothing from the Air Force. I'm starting to fear that they are stalling and waiting for me to get tired of this game and go away. This is not a game, I think this is a very serious and important issue for all photographers and I will not let it go. Maybe they've discovered that what the SP did was a crime and a violation of my rights and they are afraid to admit fault? Maybe they are afraid of a lawsuit? Who knows. I'll keep you all posted as things progress.

Update 6/17/08:

I received this email today

Allen

I sent you an invitation to join us in July and August for Red Flag
media days. As I said in my earlier e-mail, you will have to pass a
routine background check. If you are interested in joining us, please
provide the requested information in my earlier e-mail.

While I agree with you that our security forces Airman should not have
forced you to erase your photos, I am not in a position to apologize for
the Air Force. An apology has been requested from the 99th Security
Forces Group and I hope that they will eventually send you a letter.

In the meantime, our media days offer photographers like you an
excellent location between the runways for a full daytime launch and
recovery. You will be as close as 150 feet to aircraft in full
afterburner as they rotate on takeoff.

Please let me know if you would like to join us.

Regards

Mike Estrada, YC-02
Deputy Director of Public Affairs


I have now officially grown tired of this B.S.
Today I have written to the Las Vegas Sun newspaper regarding this issue and I will be re-establishing contact with the lawyers that I contacted earlier. The continued stalling techniques are more than annoying. And now the offer of a media day pass for Red Flag is an obvious tactic to make me happy and go away.

Update 7/2/08:

I just got off the phone with Col Howard Belote's office (base commander). The nice lady (Janet) says that my letter has not arrived at the Colonel's office yet. So I emailed her the letters and she is going to forward the information to the Colonel and he should be calling me soon.

Update 7/7/08:

Janet Duenas-Resto just confirmed that the letters I sent to the commander were received.

Her email from today:

Received. Am working it and will get back to you shortly.

janet.
99 ABW/CCS
4430 Grissom Ave, Ste 101
Nellis AFB, NV 89191-6520
Tel: (702) 652-9900 / DSN 682-9900
Fax: (702) 652-9832 / DSN 682-9832


Update 7/14/08
Request to fellow photographers.

If you think that what happened to me at Nellis was wrong and you do not want the same thing happening to you some day, please help me by expressing your opinions to the Las Vegas media and the authorities at Nellis AFB.

This is a matter of protecting your rights as a photographer.

I think it's important for these people to realize that I am not just one lone wacko out here writing letters ... there are several of us wackos

What we need from Nellis (or the Air Force) is answers to the following 7 questions: (feel free to cut and paste these into your emails)

1. Do the Air Force police have jurisdiction over civilians outside of the air base?

2. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to look at my photos? If so, under what authority?

3. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to force me to delete my photos
(Seizure of my private property)? If so, under what authority?

4. Do the Air Force police have the authority to detain and question a civilian on public or private property that happens to be in the proximity of an Air Force base?

5. Do the Air Force police have the authority to force me to move from private or public land just because I can see the air base from where I am standing.

6. Does the Air Force in fact have regulations regarding photography of “less common” aircraft? I’m not referring to secret or classified aircraft, but rather aircraft in the USAF inventory (as the officer stated) “in lower numbers”.

7. Does the Air Force have regulations concerning civilians photographing aircraft from public or private land outside of air bases?

You may submit your opinions on this matter to and or all of the following:

Las Vegas Sun Newspaper
ellen.wager@lasvegassun.com
feedback@lasvegassun.com

KTNV ABC 13 Las Vegas
kmovesian@ktnv.com
desk@ktnv.com

KVBC NBC 3 Las Vegas
jkotnik@kvbc.com
mfirestone@kvbc.com
cholmes@kvbc.com

Nellis AFB Public Affairs Office
99abw.pa@nellis.af.mil
michael.estrada@nellis.af.mil

Col Howard Belote's office, Commander Nellis AFB
99abwccs@nellis.af.mil
janet.duenas-resto@nellis.af.mil
99abwds@nellis.af.mil
99abwccs@nellis.af.mil

Here is a link to a sample letter you may or may not want to use as a starting point for your letter to Nellis AFB

http://www.allensphotoblog.com/Sample.txt

Update 7/15/08

Letters written today to:
Senator Harry Reid (D-NV)
Senator John Ensign (R-NV)
Representative Shelley Berkley (D-NV)

I am so tired of being ignored by the people at Nellis. Maybe these people can get some answers.

I really want to go shoot pictures at RedFlag, but I just can't do it till I'm sure I know my rights and will not be harassed by the SPs like I was at JEFX. What's the point of going if some kid 1/2 my age with an M-16 is going to make me delete my photos.

Update 8/4/08

Contacting the base commander's office may have finally paid off for us. Today I received the following email from my contact at Col Belote's office:

Hi Mr Rockwell

I apologize for the lateness in my reply. Letter has been written, signed,
sealed in an envelope and on its way to your ..... address. I
can scan it in if you desire as well.

janet.
99 ABW/CCS
4430 Grissom Ave, Ste 101
Nellis AFB, NV 89191-6520
Tel: (702) 652-9900 / DSN 682-9900
Fax: (702) 652-9832 / DSN 682-9832


So, hopefully tomorrow I'll have an email copy of the letter that was sent. 
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Comments

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(132 comments)
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Rock Paper Image says:

Allen
A very worthy cause indeed. I especially enjoyed the video on your site. Well it actually made me feel quite angry!

More needs to be done, so if you want some help with the website I'll be happy to do what I can.

Steve

PS - There were some spoof cops (the vigilance committee) in Brighton England stopping people who were taking photos on Saturday afternoon.
A bit of fun that clearly describes where we're headed. I've posted a couple of pic on my photostream
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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photofriendly  Pro User  says:

Photographing military bases and commercial airports are becoming more scrutinzed. The 2 observation areas at Bush IAH and (the former AFB) Ellington Field have had their "observation" areas open and closed regularly. It is worth the rush to see the aircraft and wonder when someone will drive up to question your intentions.

I wonder if NASCAR tells the Air Force they can't take-off, land or fly-by without a ticket - tongue in cheek.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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vector1771 (Hangar71.com)  Pro User  says:

What? From the racetrack??? I have never heard of this? Were you using the 600 monster? I realize it doesnt make difference, but maybe it was out of the "ordinary" for even the Nellis guys. Anyways, such utter BULLSHIT! I cant believe he wanted you to erase them! Was there something out there strange on the ramp??? From that distance no doubt.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

you know what you should do. Make JPEG images out of wherever it is you're going from google earth and should anyone ask to see them they'll be on your camera. Show them the google earth pics and tell them these are the photos you've been taking and see what their reaction is
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I didn't even tell you guys the best part. He made me delete a bunch of photos of a KC-135 (in flight photos, the base was not visible in the photos). Keep in mind that this is a Boeing 707 commercial airliner with a refueling boom attached to the belly and two refueling pods on the wings with hose reels in them.

I told him that I'd delete the photos (they were crap photos anyways) but I was just very curious as to why he picked that aircraft to ask me to delete.

His reasoning was this: "There are aircraft in the USAF inventory that are very common and present in large numbers like the the F-15 and F-16 and there are aircraft that are more rare and in lower numbers like the KC-135 and the F-22 ... we don't want pictures taken on the these less common aircraft".

He also told me that I could not stay where I was (racetrack property) and that if I wanted to keep shooting I would need to continue down Las Vegas Blvd until I got past where the fences ended on the base side of the street.

I'm sure this guy would blow a gasket if he could see what happens at LeBourget and Farnbourough ... they park KC-135s in the static display area and let you walk right up to them, touch them and take as many photos as you want from every conceivable angle ... even inside if you ask nicely.

So guys ... be careful. Every photo you have of a "less common" USAF planes is a violation of this guy's private little law. Start deleting those F-22 and KC-135 photos from you hard drives right away. I've got a photo of the YF-23 and they only built 2 of those ... I'll bet I'm in deep crap over that one.

I will be writing a letter to Nellis about this incident ... I'm not really sure who to address it to (the PAO?) ... anyone know who I should write to?

Vector: There was nothing at all strange on the ramp. Yes I was using the 600mm, but even with that I cant see anything that I can't see with my own eyes.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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F18E777  Pro User  says:

Wow what is going on here this is not right and should never have happened!
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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ghb624  Pro User  says:

Yes Allen, it's discouraging to keep hearing about incidents like this. It's like history repeating itself, of course. In the 1950's there was the Red Scare and The Bomb and the Commies to energize the folks who think Security trumps everything else. Today it's Terrorism, the Chinese & North Korean threats, etc etc. And of course the worker bee security guys get support & encouragement from all the way up the chain, so they have no doubt but what they're in the right.
You should follow through with the letter, although it may not do a whole lot of good. Sending it to the office of the Base Commander might be a good way to get it in the door.
Anyway, glad you posted it to the "Hassled" group.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

wow. that video you have posted is quite very interesting. but its interested to see them walk away with their tails between their legs when they stupidly realized they didn't know what they were talking about.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

That was my favorite part as well. Maybe someone from England can chime in, but I think they were not "real" cops, they were sort of civilian community patrol volunteers.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

i'd sue for assault if i were this guy. normally i'm not a "sue happy" person, but this could really teach them a lesson. even if you don't get anything more than a small settlement. hey it might be enough for a new lens
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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usafgadget  Pro User  says:

99 ABW/PA
4430 Grissom Ave.,
Suite 107
Nellis AFB, NV 89191
(702) 652-2750
DSN 682-2750

99abw.pa@nellis.af.mil
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

hmm...whered that long post^^ go???
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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usafgadget  Pro User  says:

I was starting to rant and that is not who I am, nor am I a barracks lawyer so I decided to collect my thoughts elsewhere and do more research.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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vector1771 (Hangar71.com)  Pro User  says:

HA! "Rare aircraft?" A -135R? There are HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS in inventory. Like a lot of USAF dudes not associated with aviation, they dont know their stuff. I have never heard of this @ Nellis. I always see photographers all over shooting Flags and such, hell they even allow some on the flightline? This guy was an anomoly. I would surely let is superiors know you were harassed off base fully outside his jurisdiction, especially for "seizing" property.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

Allen - I would address copies of the letter to the Base Commander, to the Security Police Commander and to the PA Office Commander. I have been told that there is nothing the SP's can do if you are off base and on public property and legally parked. This was from a Lt Col in the PA office at an AFB I take pics at regularly. There is nothing they can do but harass you. There is no law that says you cannot photograph these aircraft. This guy was well out of both his jurisdiction and rights. Not even the Clark County or LV Police can stop you. The parking lot is an open area. Public access area. With lines painted to provide parking! Unless they close that parking lot to everyone outside of raceday - you can be there. His fence and flightline are his to protect. But not from a camera. And not if you are on the other side of the fence.

But wait a minute....maybe the FBI alerted him to protect even flying KC-135's from a guy with a big lense on a Ram pickup..........

Please address those letters Allen. Perhaps you can get a petition letter campaign going to get this guy an Article 15.....he did something more illegal than you did. If you did that to his camera images, you would be charged with destroying government property...
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

I know you took more - where are they?!?
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Letter has been sent to Nellis PA office. I'll keep you all posted as to what the response is.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

YEAH!!!!
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

haha well its the government so I'm guessing we'll be waiting months for an answer :P
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

Nellis is supposed to have photo phriendly pholks....
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Maybe not .. I used a little of my media muscle and told them that I've already discussed this issue on my show (which I have) and I'd really like to do a follow-up show in the near future that includes their response.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN -
Welcome to our exciting ringside seats!!!

In this Corner - the light-heavyweight podcasting photographer......
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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erik_found says:

I was just thinking, wouldn't be cool to have a decoy delete button. I mean, it shouldn't be too hard to add a function that shows a big trash can on the screen if you press the delete button and another button. Now I've just got to work on how to reverse engineer the firmware and add that function...
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

You know, my 1D Mark III has a CF card and an SD card ... if I was really thinking I could have switched to the other card in about 1 second and said "Here look, I haven't taken any photos yet".
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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v1rotate  Pro User  says:

Too bad you were exhausted. Air Force Police off Air Force property have no authority whatsoever. You should have told the guy to shove it.

I have a subscription to Aviation Week. Lots and lots of pics of all sorts of military hardware, and a certain amount of raw intel appears in it weekly...it has gotten in trouble about it a few times. Why don't they crack down on that publication?

In a couple of weeks, Andrews Air Force Base will host its annual Armed Forces Day Open House. Bring your cameras, folks! Lots of C-135s, F-22s, F-16s, F-18s, F-15s, and even the F-35 on display for the taxpaying public's viewing pleasure. They do guard the more sensitive stuff with a perimeter fence, a sentry with a rifle (probably emptiy), and a sign saying USE OF DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED. But that is only if you jump the fence. Take all the pictures you want.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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vector1771 (Hangar71.com)  Pro User  says:

If you cant chip of a piece of the RAM paint, Uncle Sam really does not give a shit from what I can tell. Its more about a lack of action for MPs in country.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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vector1771 (Hangar71.com)  Pro User  says:

No disrespect to MPs, you guys rock, just leave photographers alone. I get the whole "stop and chat" thing, no problem but seizing property...
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Hey, you are not supposed to know about RAM ... are you sure you are not a spy? :)
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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vector1771 (Hangar71.com)  Pro User  says:

One of America's most guarded secrets.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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Tony's Outdoors  Pro User  says:

Allen, switching cards would have been brilliant! And yes, Google does pose more of a security risk in this respect than your image ever will. I know of one base that forced Google to remove images because they clearly showed the perimeter fence and the buildings but I cannot remember which one offhand.

Planephotoman, I disagree with your last statement "he did something more illegal than you did". Allen did nothing wrong. He was well within his rights.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

HAHAHA great minds think alike.

Using both cards was what I thought about for about 5 minutes last night while I was going to bed.

Yes. I think about things like this while going to sleep. I think a lot.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

Tony's - that was my point. That Allen did nothing wrong......the SP went way over his bounds and pushed his authority outside his jurisdiction. That seems to me to be illegal.....the SP was trying to make Allen believe he was doing something wrong or illegal.....
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update: The Nellis AFB Pubic Affairs office have acknowledged receipt of my letter and responded as such:

We have received your letter and frankly it justified a thorough
investigation of the events. As soon as we are finished reviewing the
events leading up to this complaint we will make an official response.

Until then thank you for sharing this information.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

well you know that the guy who "confronted" you will just give some BS answer or stretch it so it looks like he did nothing wrong or you were way out of line.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I doubt that ... he seemed like a very decent guy, I just think he's misinformed of civilian photographer's rights and his jurisdictional limits. I'm sure his response will be more like "I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do". Unless his incident report is incorrect it will clearly show that I was not on military property and that I cooperated fully with all requests.

My letter to the air base was not critical of the officer at all, it was more of a request for clarification (for my own information) of the laws regarding shooting photos of planes, where I can be while shooting, how far the SP's reach extends off base in relation to civilians, etc.

We'll see what happens.

If I end up getting a letter from them telling me that I was ok where I was and there is nothing wrong with the photos that I took, I'll carry that letter with me anytime I'm near an air base.

One thing that I just thought about today. The SP told me that I could not shoot photos that showed the flightline (the area where planes are parked, just off the runways). Once a year the airbase opens to the public for an airshow/open house called Aviation Nation ... I'll bet there are many thousands of flightline photos taken that day.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

Cool Allen!! You will have to post it too! 'Investigation' is a key military phrase for 'someone is in a lot of doo doo'....

and it is not you Allen!!!!
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

what is the significance of the flight line anyways. Would that presumably give away what planes will be flying that day? And they clearly in plain sight anyways.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I don't think there is any significance to the flightline ... as you say, it is clearly visible from lots of places with the naked eye. And Google Earth has captured in such detail that you could generate a CAD drawing from their data if you were so inclined to do so.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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etherflyer  Pro User  says:

Format card, then use file recovery software at home?
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

That's been known to happen :)
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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thatguyeric  Pro User  says:

There are 532 KC-135s listed by wikipedia as active. It also lists 807 F-15s as active. Nobody in their right mind would call either type rare...

If he wants to use that logic, he could have at least tried referencing the 59 KC-10s in service. This goober or his commanding officer needs some serious reeducation... possibly from the guy that you talked to earlier in the day. Hope the base investigation prompts a reaction, possibly one nation-wide. Military and law-enforcement overreaction to photographers is getting way too common.
Posted 20 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update:
All emails to the Nellis Public Affairs Office since May 12th have gone unanswered.

Today I have I have written to an attorney that specializes in photography law to see if she is interested in pursuing this matter.

I will keep you posted.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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Four Symbols  Pro User  says:

I watched that video on that site you linked... and I must say it made me mad.

It's sad how corruption and ignorance of laws can lead to situations like this.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

An additional letter to the Base Commander may be in order also. Had they been 'talking' to you up until the 12th of May?? What, if you can say, were they representing to you in their contacts?
Interesting website...
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061031 121040AA9wAbs
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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TucsonRailfan  Pro User  says:

wow! this is the first time I am reading this post. Amazing. Allen - good luck with the attorney and someone needs to set an example for "such" cops!
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Paul,
The replies I had received from the base PA office ranged from
"We have received your letter and frankly it justified a thorough investigation of the events. As soon as we are finished reviewing the events leading up to this complaint we will make an official response. Until then thank you for sharing this information."

To the last one (recvd 2/12) in response to my request for status
"I have not seen a reply sir but I will check for you."
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Yah, at first I really just wanted answers for my own information and to share with the photography public ... but as time passes I'm feeling more and more like I had my rights violated and possibly crimes committed against me ... and I do not like that feeling.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I want to make something real clear. I'm not a sue happy guy that contacted an attorney hoping to make a quick buck ... The attorney that I contacted is very involved with photographers rights issues and advocacy ... my letter to her simply asked if she would like to assist me with this issue.

If someone down the line determines that damages are owed or deserved, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

But for now I just think a trained attorney with extensive knowledge in the area of photographers rights might be a better person to deal with government bureaucracy.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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pablolopez26  Pro User  says:

Hi Allen, i just happened across this photo, and as an amatuer photographer i can say that here in the United States, it is very difficult to take photos of military type aircraft or vehicles without a base officer or private security personnel asking me tons of questions...

I think unfortunately that this is what 9/11 has caused... I make do with what i got here in Houston and surrounding cities...
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

This is a big 'I stepped in poo poo' if they don't get it right...

oh wait - that's the way it IS going to come out...
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

I'll also bet Donuts to slot machine tokens, that they are reading each and every one of these comments....
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

puns intended!
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 5/30/08:

Email from the 99 ABW/ PA Office

I have talked with several individuals regarding this matter and before I give you the official response I would like to ask you to remain patient for a couple more days. We will give you an official response next week.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

From who at the 99 ABW/PA Office? Major? Lt Col? Sgt? Amn?? Seems they have done it in house and didn't take it any further than the Security Squadron....be prepared Mr Rockwell to get your socks knocked off....
Do you think they are reading this?!?
:-))
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Paul,

I've been dealing with "Eugene Hill, Outreach Mgr". I'm not even sure if he's military ... I guess he could be a civilian with a title like "outreach Manager".

What do you mean "be prepared to get your socks knocked off"? What do you think their response is going to be?
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

I never considered that a civilian would be preparing a response....that's low man on the totem pole as far as the military is concerned. If a civilian is 'investigating', then your answer most likely will be 'don't shoot, we won't come out....'


my point is; When's the last time you spoke to that lawyer......
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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usafgadget  Pro User  says:

I disagree. DoD civilians occupy a lot of important positions, including leadership. At active duty bases there are many management positions held by civilians (which are actually cheaper to pay than active duty equivalents). In fact, at Tinker, the entire Air Depot has been lead by a DoD civilian with as much pull as a three star general. I not surprised a bit. PA folks are normally civs with journalism or HR background since most of there contacts are the local media. As for they're background work, the delay might have caused by a review of the subject by the base legal team. I doubt seriously that the Security Force's squadron even got involved other than to provide their side of the story. Base Legal gets involved with EVERYTHING, contracting, labor unions, environmental issues, occupational health and safety...you name it.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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usafgadget  Pro User  says:

Outreach is really community involvement. They're the ones who handle the calls about the loud planes and the environmentalist that want to scream everytime a gallon of jet fuel leaks onto the pavement. No kidding we used to used codewords to describe fuel spills because they would be scanning the freqs during Red Flags.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

I have always said that the term 'Public Affairs' is an oxymoron.....
And nothing at all against what you are saying usafgadget, (big 'BUT' coming up here!) BUT - all I am saying here is this - I have never received a response from a civilian government employee working for the military that was a positive one. And I did just say 'never'. Not even from the higher up management civilians in PA. That has been my experience and I am sticking to it. So here it is - Even though I have made a prediction based on my experience; my hope for Allen is this issue will be handled properly....
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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Michael Davis - AirTeamImages  Pro User  says:

If you are on public land, they don't have any right what so ever to ask you to delete photos plain and simple. Get a lawyer and wear their heads out on it. I hope they do read this to be honest because they overstepped their boundaries and went against the very Constituition they swear to defend. What hypocrisy!
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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Danny McL  Pro User  says:

I have stood outside (and inside Nellis AFB) and taken loads of pictures without problem both on airshow days and on routine weekdays when normal flight ops have been taking place.

Was tailed by a twattish UK cop from Mildenhall to Lakenheath last year and asked what I was doing but he could see I was just watching the aircraft.

I'd say the base public affairs people are embarrased. If you are out that way again, you must go on one of the twice a month tours of Edwards AFB - now there you are going to see sensitive flightline stuff which you can't photograph :) Check the public affairs pages at Edwards for details.
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

NASA Dryden has weekly tours now -
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 6/09/08:

I just got off the phone with the 99ABW Public Affairs Office.

It seems they are putting the finishing touches on the response letter to me at this moment and I can expect to see it possibly later today or tomorrow.

The public affairs outreach manager, Mr, Eugene Hill stated that he was not able to tell me what the response will say until it is actually finalized but that he thinks that I "will be happy with the response".

Stay tuned ...
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

LOL and a 'Hmmmm.....'
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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Simple Shot  Pro User  says:

and the drama continues,...
Interesting reading....
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

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artchase  Pro User  says:

Allen,
I went through some challenges with the RR security contractor and they were very in the wrong. It also cost someone a job. The similar situation with AF or civilian aviation photography excist. Here is a link to something that I thought you might enjoy, it specifically covers photography in public, more railroading, but similar circumstances.


www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
and here:
www.krages.com/phoright.htm


I just recently went through some challenges with military legal and it was rather eye opening. The tactic was if you waited long enough their hope was that you would tire of it and forget it. The notes sent to me were encypted, locked and un copiable. ( I'm a little more savy at this game than was given credit. ) I did save the messages and then when the internal response was different than the public response, suddenly the tables were turned. ( Can you say, early retirement for someone....). So stand on your freedoms. It was not classified and I could show and tell way more than you could ever see in photographs from the outside of an military base.

A
Posted 19 months ago. ( permalink )

zonavar [deleted] says:

Sounds to me like they're going to 'baste' you with something that makes you liable but doesn't sound like the military are losing face. Typical govermnent departments! I've had plenty of the same from RailCorp here in Sydney Australia when I had ongoing safety disputes while working as a suburban train driver until May last year... Good luck!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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hp1974hp says:

I was going to suggest you contact the Public affairs officer(PIO), about getting permission to take pics. I work for a large airport, and know for fact that anything that is openly viewed by the public, can be photographed. We will kick people out if they are too close, or perhaps taking pictures of security procedures, but not aircraft. There is also a guy from Germany who flies in once a year, gest permission to take pics from the PIO, and posts them all over the place. Good Luck!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I'll go the "get permission" route if necessary ... but my understanding of the law (after much studying and contacting attorneys) is that if I am outside the base I do not need permission to photograph what I can see with my eyes.
This is what I am hoping to get cleared up;
1. Do I need permission to shoot from outside the base? (if so, that must suck for people that live near the base and want to shoot from their back yards).
2. What (if any) authority do the SP's have over civilians on private and/or public property off base.

These questions NEED to be answered by someone of authority in the USAF ... otherwise we will all have to worry about being harassed every time we go near a base with our cameras pursuing our hobby.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Thanks for your comments. I am very familiar with Mr. Krages .... I have talked with him about this very situation and based on Nellis's lack of action I may be talking to him again very soon.

If the USAF is waiting for me to get tired and forget about this they are mistaken. This is an important issue for photographers and I will not let this issue fade away so that we have to operate without knowing what the military thinks it's rights and responsibilities are and what they think our rights and responsibilities are.

The worst possible outcome to this situation is that nothing happens and we all continue shooting without knowing the USAF's official policies and therefore possibly get ourselves in trouble because we did not know the law ... or the USAF gets themselves into a lawsuit situation because they do not know (or observe) the law.

Knowledge is power ... we need to know where the line is so that we do not cross it while pursuing our passion and hobby of aviation photography ... and they need to know where that line is too so they do not cross it and violate our rights as citizens of this great nation.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 6/12/08:

Still nothing from the Air Force. I'm starting to fear that they are stalling and waiting for me to get tired of this game and go away. This is not a game, I think this is a very serious and important issue for all photographers and I will not let it go.

Maybe they've discovered that what the SP did was a crime and a violation of my rights and they are afraid to admit fault? Maybe they are afraid of a lawsuit? Who knows. I'll keep you all posted as things progress.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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Michael Davis - AirTeamImages  Pro User  says:

Please, I am very interested in the outcome!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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n9nds  Pro User  says:

When they ask you to delete the pictures do it. Then swap out the memory card before shooting any more pictures. Take the original card home and undelete the photos with something like Photorec. Keep them happy and keep your pictures.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

That has been known to happen in the past :)

I use Sandisk's RescuePro for the Mac.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

I have been intruiged by the 'finishing touches' part. I didn't know that the USAF painted their responses. Maybe they are waiting for their response letter to dry......
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

nooo. I'm sure they're just beating around the bush not wanting to deal with it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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zoomzoom2  Pro User  says:

I was asked to delete photos from outside a shopping mall last year sometime, so i agreed and showed them that i deleted them, as i did not want a big fuss.

when i got home i just used a photo rescue software program and got them back in seconds.

But that is not the point, us photographers need to know where we stand legally in these types of situations.

It is also very clear that it is not just us that needs to be educated in the laws, but the security guards & police , especially the community police officers seem to lack the correct knowledge on how to deal with certain situations.

I will be watching this one as it is very interesting to see what the outcome will be, although it does sound like they are beginning to drag their heals on this one.


Thank you for posting this one.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 6/17/08:

I received this email today

Allen

I sent you an invitation to join us in July and August for Red Flag
media days. As I said in my earlier e-mail, you will have to pass a
routine background check. If you are interested in joining us, please
provide the requested information in my earlier e-mail.

While I agree with you that our security forces Airman should not have
forced you to erase your photos, I am not in a position to apologize for
the Air Force. An apology has been requested from the 99th Security
Forces Group and I hope that they will eventually send you a letter.

In the meantime, our media days offer photographers like you an
excellent location between the runways for a full daytime launch and
recovery. You will be as close as 150 feet to aircraft in full
afterburner as they rotate on takeoff.

Please let me know if you would like to join us.

Regards

Mike Estrada, YC-02
Deputy Director of Public Affairs


I have now officially grown tired of this B.S.
Today I have written to the Las Vegas Sun newspaper regarding this issue and I will be re-establishing contact with the lawyers that I contacted earlier. The continued stalling techniques are more than annoying. And now the offer of a media day pass for Red Flag is an obvious tactic to make me happy and go away.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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applec2400 says:

:/

That's a corporate move right there.

"Oh finger nail in your food... free coupon!"
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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tonyadcockphotos  Pro User  says:

well, damn sure take them up on the media pass and go get us some great shots, then go back to work on the whole apology thing. think of it like make up sex. enjoy the grudge f#*k then go back to being mad.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Tony, I actually prefer to shoot from outside the base with the freedom to move around as I please and get the best angles possible depending on where the sun is. Dragging all my gear out to the tarmac (my vehicle must stay outside the base) and sitting there in the hot sun for 4-5 hours is really not my cup of tea.

Also, I'm not mad and I never once asked for an apology. My letter to them requested straight answers to these 7 questions which I think are important to all photographers:

1. Do the Air Force police have jurisdiction over civilians outside of the air base?

2. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to look at my photos? If so, under what authority?

3. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to force me to delete my photos (Seizure of my private property)? If so, under what authority?

4. Do the Air Force police have the authority to detain and question a civilian on public or private property that happens to be in the proximity of an Air Force base?

5. Do the Air Force police have the authority to force me to move from private or public land just because I can see the air base from where I am standing.

6. Does the Air Force in fact have regulations regarding photography of “less common” aircraft? I’m not referring to secret or classified aircraft, but rather aircraft in the USAF inventory (as the officer stated) “in lower numbers”.

7. Does the Air Force have regulations concerning civilians photographing aircraft from public or private land outside of air bases?

...and to this day, exactly NONE of these 7 questions have been answered. :(

Yesterday I contacted the Las Vegas Sun Newspaper and today I contacted KTNV (ABC TV) and KVBC (NBC TV) in Las Vegas ... maybe they can do a better job getting these questions answered than I can ... it's what they do for a living.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

That was my impression exactly. It's an insult to me and what I'm trying to do here. All I want from them is answers to the 7 questions above so that once and for all we can all know where we stand when we go near an Air Force base to photograph planes.

If I wanted a media day pass I would have requested one.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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tonyadcockphotos  Pro User  says:

you know a lot more about this than I do, I would have jumped at the chance to get the media pass, but it sounds like you have experience. about your 7 questions, two words...patriot act. I thank you for standing up for my rights and everyone elses.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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usafgadget  Pro User  says:

Hogwash on the Patriot Act. The words Photography, Photograph or even Photo do not even exist in the document. The only mention about cameras is for funding to purchase surveillance cameras or restricting them when discussing classified materials. Law Enforcement and security personnel love to throw that name around when in fact, not one of them has ever read it.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

I've gotta go with usafgadget on this one. I downloaded the patriot act and did a search for the words photography, photograph and photo and came us with the same results he did.

The Patriot Act is being used as an excuse to violate rights of law abiding US citizens even when the text of the act does not justify the action. That just sucks.

usafgadget is right ... I'm sure most police and security people have not read the patriot act, some of them just assume that it gives them unlimited powers over law abiding US citizens and it somehow trumps our constitutional rights.

Tony, Regarding your "thank you" ... it's totally my pleasure. I think this is REALLY important and if we ignore the "war on photographers" we will eventually get to the point where is best (safest) to just leave our cameras at home and take up a hobby that is not such a threat to national security... like playing chess in the park or bird watching.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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NetDep  Pro User  says:

WOW -- never would have guessed even the asshats in the USAF thought they could buy your civil rights for a media pass and a free lunch!! The reply from the PIO was shameful and the fact that you were told to wait for an "eventual" response from the SP's is beyond that!!

Ignore nothing - fight for it all - I take my rights and responsibilities seriously and every chance I get stand for those rights -- not had the kind of confrontation you did but when challenged I do not back down.

We all need to stand solid on this -- too much in the media and the internet about this of late. Will follow this topic closely -- like you say on your other site -- Photography is NOT a crime!!!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

BTW, if anyone cares.. here is the original letter that I sent the Air Force nearly 2 months ago (with my address deleted from the letter).

www.allenrockwellphoto.com/nellis.pdf

Please do not post this letter elsewhere without permission. Thanks.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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Dadooron  Pro User  says:

Hang in there Allen!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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zoomzoom2  Pro User  says:

I am so pleased you are continuing with this, it is nice to know you are doing it for ALL photographers.

it is very annoying seeing this type of thing raised on a weekly basis now in photography magazines.

It is time there was a clear definitive answer to where a photographer stands be it professional or amateur on what they are NOT allowed to photograph and why.

Keep up the pressure Allen, once again thank-you.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

Was I right - or was I right...



(tounge in cheek!)
I was close anyway!
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Comments from world famous photography rights attourney Bert Krages (posted with his permission)

Allen,

You wrote a very appropriate letter and I hope some good comes of it. I don't think your rights were violated in a strictly legal sense because you voluntarily showed the security person your images and voluntarily deleted them. If you had refused, and had he taken inappropriate action, then you would have a case. I fully understand that you were trying to be reasonable in the face of a potentially intimidating situation. The security person does not appear to be the brightest person in the world and his off-the-cuff rendering of Air Force policy suggests that he may have an ego problem. All things considered, I think you handled the situation very well by writing an excellent letter and calling attention to the matter through your personal media.

For what it is worth, I remember taking photographs of SR-71s taking off from Kadena AFB in the early 1970s from a grassy strip adjacent to the main runway. Of course, back in those days the only concern was the Soviet Union and its massive nuclear arsenal (so why would anyone care about SR-71s). Perhaps you could have asked the officer why KC-135s are so sensitive with regard to the war against terrorism?

Thanks.

Bert P. Krages
Attorney at Law
6665 S.W. Hampton Street, Suite 200
Portland, Oregon 97223

Note:
I do not agree 100% with Mr. Krages comment that I voluntarily showed my images and voluntarily deleted them .... the uniform and the gun played heavily in my decision to cooperate. Had he just been a guy in a suit I would have invited him to pound sand ... but the gun influenced my decision to cooperate.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Yah, you were right.
You win a framed print of a KC-135.

Oh crap, never mind, I cannot shoot photos of that extremely rare plane ... I guess you'll have to download one of the thousands of photos of that plane on the internet and print it yourself :)
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 6/18/08

Today written letters have been mailed to:

Col Howard Belote
99 ABW Commander
Nellis AFB NV 89191

and

Col Gerald Curry
99 Security Forces Group
Nellis AFB NV 89191

If any of you have had similar experiences or feel strongly about the issue of photographers rights please feel free to write letters as well.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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planephotoman  Pro User  says:

YEAH!!!!

Oh -

oh well......

I still want to know what the finishng touches of your letter were...that sounded pretty off the cuff and written in a hurry to me....
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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Karl Hab  Pro User  says:

Nellis airport ?
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Nellis Air Force Base, North Las Vegas Nevada
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

phoneyman [deleted] says:

Wait, I don't get it, you're unhappy with being told you were right, and then getting invited to a media event specifically to take photos?

Pierre
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Nobody has told me that I was right. I wrote a letter to the base after the incident asking these 7 questions which they so far have refused to answer.
1. Do the Air Force police have jurisdiction over civilians outside of the air base?
2. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to look at my photos? If so, under what authority?
3. Do the Air Force police have the authority (without a court order) to force me to delete my photos (Seizure of my private property)? If so, under what authority?
4. Do the Air Force police have the authority to detain and question a civilian on public or private property that happens to be in the proximity of an Air Force base?
5. Do the Air Force police have the authority to force me to move from private or public land just because I can see the air base from where I am standing.
6. Does the Air Force in fact have regulations regarding photography of “less common” aircraft? I’m not referring to secret or classified aircraft, but rather aircraft in the USAF inventory (as the officer stated) “in lower numbers”.
7. Does the Air Force have regulations concerning civilians photographing aircraft from public or private land outside of air bases?
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

phoneyman [deleted] says:

While I agree with you that our security forces Airman should not have
forced you to erase your photos


Sorry, I thought that was an admission that they do not have the right to force you to delete your photos.

Um, I know they're intimidating, but have you ever considered just saying no? That's my default response to police and security types of all kinds.

Pierre
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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_Allen_  Pro User  says:

Update 7/2/08:

I just got off the phone with Col Howard Belote's office (base commander). The nice lady (Janet) says that my letter has not arrived at the Colonel's office yet. So I emailed her the letters and she is going to forward the information to the Colonel and he should be calling me soon.
Posted 18 months ago. ( permalink )

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