"just a few clicks away"

DonWilson says:

Wow, congrats at pointing out a problem in an OS that is currently in beta.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

capndesign    says:

Isn't that the best time to point out a problem?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

Isn't that the worst time to use a bug to degrade software?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

mdaines    says:

This is more like "(at least) two bugs, and a flawed attempt at fixing people's assumptions about shortcuts". If installing applications on Windows was less of a black-box affair, there probably wouldn't "need" to be that "confirm shortcut delete" box.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

monsieuranguille says:

@don

Do you know what a bug is? It's erroneous or unintended behavior in software.

Piling up that many dialogs is not a bug, it's just a crappy implementation of a security model.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

Can we try this method on an icon that isn't specifically related to the beta? IE a shortcut to Outlook or something? Or would that destroy the funniness of the bit?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

garrettmurray    says:

I love the unflinching support that Windows has from its users. DonWilson looks at this and DEFENDS it. That's insane. But as long as you're happy, that's all that matters.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

delynn says:

That's amazing. Quick question though; how many dialog boxes are saved if you hold down the shift key while deleting the shortcut? I'm guessing it will save 2-3 dialogs, which is still terrible as it leaves 3-4 dialogs to deal with to delete one shortcut.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

slavin fpo    says:

I love fundamentalism in all it's many forms.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

bitrot    says:

Don, chill out! This is a photo sharing site, not a court of law. Honestly, you'll give yourself a thrombosis!

Jon Honeyball, a broadly pro-Microsoft journalist, has complained about this exact feature in PC Pro magazine.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

pqs says:

Did you try Ubuntu?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

veracon says:

Beta is for TESTING, not for trying to remove the client that you're meant to be using for this very purpose.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

huronbikes    says:

That is really.... Enterprise!
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

neunsechszwo says:

No confirmations if you have the proper permissions on the file and remove the required verification before emptying the Recycle Bin. Or, you could just run as Administrator and let viruses overrun your computer. Either way, I don't use Windows, so things like this only make me laugh. haha!
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

"DonWilson looks at this and DEFENDS it. That's insane"
- Easily the stupidest comment I've ever read. How dare I defend something related to Microsoft in a field of Apple zealots.

"Don, chill out! This is a photo sharing site, not a court of law. Honestly, you'll give yourself a thrombosis!"
- Photo sharing site that has comments enabled. I'll leave my comments, you leave yours, and that's that.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

jough [formerly jough]    says:

I guess you could just ignore those check boxes that say "Repeat my answer each time this occurs" so you have something to complain about.

Also, with the default in Windows XP the recycle bin prompts you on empty by default, but it's a setting that you can turn off. You can even delete things without sending them to the recycle bin at all.

Are you certain that's not a feature in Vista?

Sure, this is an exaggerated scenario that isn't likely to come up very often (trying to delete an icon created by the system to which your currently logged in user does not have ownership of or permission to delete) and those are a whole bunch of steps, but it seems, just from looking at the dialogue boxes, that some of those steps, if not most of them, would never come up in day-to-day use, and even if they do, only once (since you can have it remember your choices).

Surely there is more wrong with Vista than this? If not, I guess I'm looking forward to upgrading, then. XP is such a mess that I'd be overjoyed if the biggest problem with Vista was "too many dialogue boxes the first time you try to do something you've never done in the OS before."
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

smedero says:

Don, if this set of dialogs occured in Mac OS X or Gnome people would be all over them too... it just so happens this particular UI debacle occurs in Windows Vista. I think sometimes the community jumps on Windows UI flaws because it is hard to find anyone at Microsoft who is listening. For instance, when a flaw is found in the OS X Finder there are a hundred Mac websites railing about how bad the Finder is. Why? Because year after year Apple fails to fix the damn thing.

I think Garrett's point is valid... anyone willing to defend this UI is sailing on the maiden (and last voyage) of the Nutty Ship Complexity. Take MS out of the equation - this particular interaction is horrible from the POV of a customer who uses this product.

We should all be striving to improve the user interfaces of Windows, Gnome, KDE, OS X, Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera, the interweb, coffee machines, cars, etc.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

CPngN says:

It may seen a little overboard, but you are trying to delete a file which was not created by you. At least there will BE some sort of security now! It's only, what.... __2006__!! And yet, I'll bet when it's all done and released, copying files STILL won't give you an option to ignore errors and keep going unless you use xcopy.
UGH!
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Mark Grealish    says:

Oh Linux, how I love thee!

That aside, I do hope that its just a bug as that sort of behaviour is just insane - likely I'll wind up with a copy of Vista at some point for my work.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

mwaters    says:

lol @ don's bunched panties
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

atsureki says:

I direct your attention to slide 3.

The message dialog says that this shortcut cannot be moved to the recycle bin.

A few clicks later, it has been moved to the recycle bin.

That is a bug.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

unten44    says:

now that's moving forward! :-)
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

So basically this is how comment discussions work with Mac people...

1) The jump on the band wagon when something in Windows is screwing up.
2) A windows person with knowledge of this problem comes in and suggests a few solutions to why this might occur.
3) Mac people throw a hissy fit because intelligence overcomes hatred for the other OS.
4) Windows person defends himself.
5) Mac people say he has taken it too far and shame him because he is on the other side of the arguement.
6) Windows person gives up.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

gxti    says:

It's odd that these messages exist at all - the recycle bin is there for a reason, and you can undo, too! If unsigned software isn't going to be allowed to manipulate files on the desktop, that's one more reason for me to leave Windows forever. Hopefully it'll at least be configurable.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Paul.Carroll    says:

Awesome
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

jayKayEss    says:

Windows was not designed from the ground up to be a secure platform, plain and simple.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

mwaters    says:

Look at me, I'm having a macs vs. pcs debate on the internet!! 1995 party at my house!
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Ocell    says:

I CAN'T WAIT! I was tired of being able to delete shortcuts in six easy clicks.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

reednj says:

Hey Wilson, relax. People here might be a little pro-mac, but if you can't admit that 7 dialogs is bad interface design then you really are a zealot.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

rom    says:

I think Microsoft thinks that Windows users are too spoiled with the way Windows XP (and below) handled security - so now, they are trying to make up for it by adding all these dialog boxes that should have appeared in previous Windows OSes. :P
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

I'm suggesting that it's still in beta. Wait until the software is actually released then complain.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

starfishie says:

Isn't it a good thing to complain about it during the beta so they *can* change it? Of course, change will only happen if they care to listen.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

J__P says:

Don,

Are you sure you want to defend this UI?
Defending "Microsoft" only removes your dignity. It does not uninstall Windows Vista.
Are you sure you want to defend this UI?
Access Denied.
You don't currently have permission to defend this UI.
Windows needs your permission to print your insane words on the screen.
Please confirm that you want to delete your good reputation.
Are you sure you want to permenantly delete your reputation?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Sliker Hawk says:

But you're making fun. The majority of you don't think it's a bug that'll get fixed >BY 2007<, no, you believe that Microsoft is even worse than you previously thought. To those people; do you know what beta is? Do you understand anything?

It's a bug.
Sure, it probably should've undergone more testing; it's not like deleting a shortcut is an uncommon thing, but it doesn't change the fact that it's beta.
Stop being such zealots. You remind me of Firefox zealots.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

Thanks Sliker.

Again, I ask anyone who runs Vista to record the process of deleting a normal shortcut icon in Vista, an icon that ISNT directly related to the entire beta process.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

dukannstnichts says:

The only part of this that seems to me to be a bug is that shortcuts should not be owned by SYSTEM. This would eliminate several of those clicks. Bug report is more important than Flickr report...
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

yoja    says:

this is all so funny!! nice find
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

James the photographer says:

I think it's hilarious that when someone who chooses not to use Windows comes along and points out that things like this are the reason why, everyone accuses him / her of just being a Microsoft hater / Apple fanboy. Is there any wonder when we all know, with near enough 100% certainty, that things like this won't be ironed out by the time Vista is released?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

digitalAmit says:

This is funny in a Microsoft windows kinda way :)
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

ishotyourband    says:

lol
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

bruce89 says:

"Security" gone mad! You can't even delete icons without it going mad, guess what it would be like doing something more dodgy, such as installing spyware. It would probably be easier than this.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Christopher Woods says:

Aaaaaaaand I'll be sticking with 2000 for a few more years to come then.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Synaptic Impulse    says:

It's just a shortcut...how can any shortcut be so important? Is the software otherwise inaccessible without it? If so, that's not a shortcut!
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

jovike    says:

At least you can delete the shortcuts in Vista. I've got this horrible Windows 2000 machine at work where I can't delete most of the icons on the desktop.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Macartisan    says:

The majority of you don't think it's a bug that'll get fixed >BY 2007<, no, you believe that Microsoft is even worse than you previously thought.

BLANKartist says:

Sure Vista will be shoved down people's throats by being pre-installed (unless Google and Dell have something to say about that), but make no mistake about it. Vista *will* be the single most underwhelming piece of bloatware to date. 5+ years in the making for translucent windows and a bunch of security fixes that should have been delt with years ago? What hell were they thinking of with ActiveX? The world didn't contain bad guys? Sheesh.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Fernando Lins / Sequent    says:

ROFL
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

maynard01974 says:

Nice one Don - apart from yourself no-one else brought up OS X while many people did bring up Linux. Are you feeling a little pissed of cause Tiger which has been around for over a year is a better then vista claims to be and is till 6 to 12 months away?? Or perhaps that Linux a free OS can compete on even ground with Windows?? Or maybe your Related to Steve Ballmer and just not allowed to play other products??
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

FlashHater says:

Um, this is not a bug.
note, the shortcut is owned by SYSTEM, which is root+
this is in no way indicitave of deleting a normal shortcut.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

maynard01974, it's a little harder to develop an OS for 95% of the market. When you have dedicated hardware built by the same company as the software, it's just slightly easier.

Regarding Linux, it still needs to be left on servers and that's it.

But let's try to stay on subject, shall we? Or have we moved past the debate and continued with more mindless comments regarding "Windows sucks!!!"
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Timex Sinclair says:

Well it seems that in Vista, when you create new shortcuts, they are owned by SYSTEM by default.

I guess they want to prevent malware from hijacking shortcuts. This is just one typical example of annoying dialog boxes in Vista.

DonWilson you're painting yourself in the corner:

Slightly easier? A little harder? If the difference it makes is that little, then your counter-argument has little weight.

It seems that you wanted to defend MS bugs and design flaws using the fact that Windows have to support a myriad of PC hardware configurations. But you realized that it just shows too much where Macs are better, hence the use of "little" and "slightly" to try to lessen the impact.

Again, if it has so little impact, why even mention it?
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

alibaba0    says:

Excellent. It looks like an exaggeration, but... it's true ! lol

Love it.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

BLANKartist says:

I think most people would agree the inconvenience of recreating a shortcut is far less frusterating than dismissing a dozen dialog boxes. All I can say is there'd better be some quick and painless method to turn that crap off (think Zone Alarm's firewall) and not some buried option.

Deleting a shortcut shouldn't be seen as a security risk. If a hacker hijacks a shortcut, then the targeted malicious code should be flagged. Who the hell cares about the shortcut? But what do I know. I'm a graphic designer, not a programmer. Speaking of which, who designed IE7's toolbar?

*donald trump voice*

"Yer fired."
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

Timex_Sinclain, check into the definition for "sarcasm" in regards to my usage of the word "slightly".
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

AzyxA    says:

Vista sounds f'in horrid...
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

yuriybrisk says:

"Do you really want to shutdown your computer?"
"Yes!"
"Do you really, really want to shutdown your computer?"
"YES!!!"
"Do you really, really, really want to shutdown your computer?"
"YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"If you will do that, computer will be off! Are you sure?"
...
...
...
(multiple gunshots sound :)
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

Mitch Rusk says:

Windows sucks ass. You guys enjoy your spyware, adware, virus's, and trojens.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

andrew_january says:

Taking out the clear bug, you now have 6 steps. Lets also slim this down for easier comparison with other OS's; the first step is not a step, it's the current state, so we now only have 5 steps (remembering all the time one of these steps is not a dialog box, but opening the recycle bin. Just as you would have to do in OS X). Now assume this is not your first time, and you have elected to "Repeat your choice each time", we have 4 steps. We now have a wopping 1 more dialog box than the current Windows systems.
The permissions dialog highlights a possible problem, that shortcuts shouldn't be owner by SYSTEM. I don't know if shortcuts are defautly owned by SYSTEM, but this one is intricatly tied with the beta test and is created by the system by default on a beta install. Hopefully shortcuts are not defautly owned by SYSTEM, which should presumably remove the security dialog. Feel free to correct me on this if you have evidence to suggest otherwise.
We are now left with the one remaining dialog box. We now have the same number of steps as the current Windows and one more dialog box than OS X. This remaining dialog box for me is a bone of contention. Yes, things are going in the Recycle Bin and so should be very easy to retrieve (you should even be able to get them back with "Undo" imho, but I don't know that you can't already do that). However, if you look at the information it gives, it is very useful for novice users. I know plenty of people who expect that deleting shortcuts on their desktops deletes the application. Concequently, they end up with bloated systems full of installed applications they don't even know they have and can get at. (Yes, there are better systems that would negate the need for this dialog box, like having "Application Shortcuts" that allow you to uninstall a program by deleting it or something, but that has a whole new set of problems). I personally think on balance this dialog is not needed, but I can see how it is useful and why the still included it.

Yes, Vista is perhaps an overkill of dialog boxes (even several well respected Microsoft employees would agree). Yes, the security system may leave a little to be desired. However, this is perhaps the worst example you could have given. So we now have a battle between those that think the new security is overkill, and those who don't, fighting over a redundant example.
Posted 44 months ago. ( permalink )

BLANKartist says:

Wow. That was very enlightening. Now how long before the first virus hits Vista? Any wagers? I guess that all depends on when it actually hits the streets. Personally, I think the hackers will simply get impatient and crack the 360 while they're waiting.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Synaptic Impulse    says:

I'm still confused about a shortcut owned by SYSTEM. The whole point of shortcuts is user convenience and customization. If it's more important than a shortcut (which is most assuredly is not in this case, owned by SYSTEM notwithstanding), it shouldn't be a shortcut.

*ANY* dialogue boxes are redundant for the act of removing it from the desktop. Right-click+delete (or drag to bin) and then the next time you empty the recycling bin it's gone should be the most involved it gets. Regardless of the OS.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

.fs    says:

Hum... Seven steps? I mean, it somewhat makes me think of a black magic procedure ¬¬
:P
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

jovike    says:

Suzanne is right, it is one step in OS X, unless you count a third way to do it: highlight the icon then press CMD/DELETE as two steps.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Scorch 07 says:

i think the only reason is because thats a system file. Normal shortcuts wont take that long.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

judsonsteel says:

oh god here we go again...

yes it looks a little buggy, yes security has been increased since XP, why not, wouldnt you try and protect your users more each release?

Sure ubutu would work, but hey, show me Flash, or Photoshop running on it.

Yeah OSX is better, show me some decent games running on it.

I guess what I am saying is that sure Vista wont be the best (hey look at VHS) but it will work for everything the majority of people need. Which is working & entertainment.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

DonWilson says:

37s, you eventually got the response you wanted. :)
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Sliker Hawk says:

Judsonsteel, you wrote exactly what I think.

Anyway, the shortcut is owned by SYSTEM because it was made by the system; it's related to the beta program. That's not hard to understand...

I very much doubt all shortcuts are owned by SYSTEM.

The first dialog is good; some people don't know that deleting shortcuts doesn't delete the program. The last is nothing to do with deleting a shortcut, it's clearing the recycle bin. All the other's are because it's owned by SYSTEM. And that will be fixed, which leaves three/four clicks. Lots of effort there. Yeah.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Sliker Hawk says:

"why you would want to is another question." - Flash based web sites, or just small flash utilities on web sites, even games.

The GIMP is rubbish. People say it's a free version of Photoshop; no it's not, it misses alot of features and is annoyingly different. It's it's own editor, not a free version. There are a number of programs that people say are free versions of commercial software, but they're hardly ever as good.

The fact remains that Windows has the best compatability for hardware and software because it's the most popular, not the best, and most of the software hasn't been ported and won't work on emulators.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Sliker Hawk says:

Flash sites are still very much in use.
I wasn't trying to start anything about Windows vs something, I was just stating that there are uses for some things that you can't get in other operating systems.
Mac and Linux are definitely better than Windows, but I was always annoyed by software when I tried a different system.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

jayKayEss    says:

Damn, people are really player-hating the Linux here...

There is a flash player for Linux. The most recent version lags behind the Windows version, though. (Incidentally I know Mac users who also complain about crappy Flash support on OSX.)

Photoshop, Flash Professional, MS Office, and a whole bunch of other Windows apps will all run under CrossOver Office on Linux.

The GIMP is perfect for hobbyists. Who besides a professional is going to pay $700 for Photoshop? And Photoshop Elements? Please.

There's an old myth going around that Linux has poor hardware support, but that's mostly solved now. The only thing that gives me bother occasionally is WiFi drivers. Scanner, printer, digital camera, mp3 player, etc. all work flawlessly for me.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

jcraveiro    says:

@ jayKayEss:
"The only thing that gives me bother occasionally is WiFi drivers"

Soon to be over. Kernel 2.6.17 includes Broadcom 43xx support, news don't stop there.

On the topic:
Shift+Delete, anyone?
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

AmandaEmily [deleted] says:

You have got to be kidding me. I'll buy a Mac before I go to Vista
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Goran Zec    says:

Well, you can't make a security without breaking a few heads.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

Naugahyde says:

I would like to know how Step 1 and Step 6 are really steps. Unless you consider noticing an unwanted shortcut or looking inside your recycle bin to be steps. However, that is not Microsoft's fault. So, now we are down to five steps. The fact that this is a system owned file and not owned by the current user makes it a rare case that you should need those five steps. If it were a user-owned file, you would be down to two steps:

1. Right-click the shortcut and select Delete.
2. Right-click the recycle bin and selectEmpty Recycle Bin.

Now, please stop crying.
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

jayKayEss    says:

"Now, please stop crying."

That's the Windows attitude! Love it or leave it!
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

bruce89 says:

I've left it (mostly)
Posted 43 months ago. ( permalink )

zeusbox    says:

LOL... now i know if i use Vista i will spend 1 hour to delete all my icons on the desktop.
Posted 40 months ago. ( permalink )

BelgariontheKing says:

I'm in the middle here. I've been using Windows for over 10 years. I've been using Linux (on servers, no KDE/Gnome - which KDE is the better one anyways) for about two years. I used MAC OSX for about a year all told, and that was only when I was in class and all they had in the room were MAC computers.

I choose Windows. Why? Because I've grown used to it. Because that's what my games are written in. Because I can always find a program that does what I need it to do. Because I don't need to feel superior about my OS to post something about it on the internet. Anyone who thinks that one OS is right for everyone is just plain ignorant. Why not find what's best for you and stop badmouthing everything that you haven't personally chosen as your own. MAC has its advantages, Linux has its advantages, Windows has its own. You snobs need to shut the hell up.

The first release of any Windows version -- always a bad idea to upgrade. Still very buggy and expensive.

In one of my classes, we learned how the success of a software package is measured with relation to the number of bugs. Take the number of bugs found AFTER the package is released and divide it by the number found BEFORE it's released. Who knows how many bugs MS found before 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, XP were released. Probably more than were found afterwards, but that's just speculation.

I'm pretty sure noone's going to read this because it's 4 months after the OP and over 100 posts down from the top, but I feel better anyways.
Posted 38 months ago. ( permalink )

Ross Hill    says:

This seems eerily like the new "Security" get a mac ad that I saw this morning :)
Posted 35 months ago. ( permalink )

uninorth13    says:

ha .. i don't think i'll switch back to windows =)
Posted 35 months ago. ( permalink )

jhakmail says:

I can't believe people are still looking at this. THIS IS FROM AN EARLY BETA BUILD NOT THE FINAL VERSION. In Vista RTM it it takes a SINGLE STEP.
Posted 33 months ago. ( permalink )

devbasu@rogers.com says:

seriously people - vista RTM does not have these defects!
Posted 23 months ago. ( permalink )