Under christian theology, humans have the free will choice to accept or reject god and to follow or reject the temptation of sin. Assuming this version of reality is true, what happens when you go to heaven? Do you stop wanting to sin? Is it impossible to sin? Or can you still choose to reject god and be sent to hell?
I would guess that most christians never think about this. And it brings up a number of questions.
If you stop wanting to sin in heaven:
1. If sin is a choice in heaven, you can still be immoral and harm
other people. Thus making heaven an imperfect place.
2. The only deterrent to evil behavior is fear of consequences and
guilt. If heaven has no fear, guilt or consequences, what is stopping
people from evil behavior?
3. If od has the power to stop people from wanting to sin in heaven, why can’t he do it on earth?
If god makes it impossible to sin in heaven:
1. Why not bypass earth and create all people in heaven? Does god get joy from watching people suffer? Why put his “beloved” humans on an imperfect planet? Is our existence on earth some sort of twisted game?
2. If your free will taken away from you in heaven, how is that a reward? Do you become a slave with every day controlled like a mindless robot? If your free will is taken away, that makes you a prisoner.
3. Lastly, how did satan fall away from god if he couldn’t sin in heaven?
If you can reject god and/or sin in heaven:
1. If you can sin in heaven and be sent to hell, how is it different than earth?
2. How could evil things happen in a so-called perfect place?
3. People would spend eternity avoiding sin and fearing god’s wrath. That doesn’t sound like a joyful eternity.
The idea of a perfect christian heaven is flawed no matter how you look at it. Either you are a mindless drone, or god is some sort of ruling dictator in heaven still threatening people with hell. Under either description, heaven isn’t a perfect place.
Or there is always the possibility that heaven is an imaginary place invented by ancient Jewish men.
What about "free will" in life? The Bible instructs how to deal with an atheist or anyone who rejects god . . . Kill them.
The vast majority of christians are very good people. They follow Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies”. But as we see throughout the Bible, this teaching is contradicted over and over again. According to the following verses, christians should kill anyone who dares not worship their god and would be arrogant enough to reject christian teaching.
Kill those who speak rebellion against god.
The false prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who redeemed you from slavery and brought you out of the land of Egypt. Since they try to lead you astray from the way the Lord your God commanded you to live, you must put them to death. In this way you will purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
Kill anyone who arrogantly rejects priests.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.(Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill anyone who refuses to seek god.
They agreed that anyone who refused to seek the LORD, the God of Israel, would be put to death—whether young or old, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:13)
Kill anyone who violates the covenant of god.
If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant . . . and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2,4-5)
Those refusing to retain knowledge of god deserve death.
They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen . . . Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done . . . They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:25,28,32)
Thankfully, christians ignore these Bible verses and/or explain them away with the “new covenant” of Jesus. But it is illogical to describe him as a “god of love” and justify his commandment to kill anyone who dares deny his existence. God’s multiple personality disorder reads more like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde novel than a book of divine wisdom and teaching.
According to these verses, god gives us free will to follow him or be murdered.
free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external
circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition
Threats of death and eternal damnation for choosing to not believe just doesn't seem like free will to me...It is sure not a choice made unconstrained by external circumstances...So, no, I guess there is not "free will" after all.
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EC *will come back soon* [deleted] 42 months ago | reply
Estaba tan inspirado que no podía no escribir esto en español. A mi juicio, en primer lugar, el cielo no puede ser un lugar perfecto, porque si se trata de un lugar siempre feliz, eso harta. Que cosa que dura una eternidad no harta?? Aparte, si llegamos al cielo y no nos deja Dios hacer nuestra voluntad, nos volvemos maquinas, como tu dices. Entonces donde está nuestro mérito de ser buenos cristianos? Se supone que morimos al agrado de los ojos de Dios, entonces, al entrar al cielo el no nos puede dar libre albedrio.
La religión esta llena de contradicciones, y despues de todo la inventaron imperfectos humanos.
Zombie Inc. Wholesale Zombies for Over 25 years 42 months ago | reply
Pero Dios debe ser perfecto. Cómo puede ser perfecto cuando sus enseñanzas y mensajes están llenos de contradicciones? ¿No sería más fácil creer que no hay dios en absoluto y que él o ella estaba formado por un grupo de hombres que encontraron una forma inteligente de tener poder y control sobre las masas?
Cómo puede el cielo no ser un lugar perfecto? Cuál sería el punto de ser vivir para complacer a su dios con la esperanza de ir al cielo si es tan imperfecto como la tierra es? El cielo se supone que es un lugar de perfección, en el que ya no tienen que sufrir. Ese es el punto de venta todo en el cristianismo, ser bueno en la tierra donde la vida es imperfecta y duro, por favor Dios, y cuando uno muere va al cielo y vivir para la eternidad en un lugar perfecto.
Gracias a mi cuenta pro ahora puedo pasar el tiempo seria compartir mis fotos y también educar a la gente sobre cómo loco y estúpido creer en Dios es. Sabe usted que la mayoría de las personas que dicen ser cristianos no pueden ni siquiera el nombre de un libro en la Biblia sin mirar? La mayoría de los cristianos ni siquiera han leído la Biblia, ellos ni siquiera saben nada de la religión que es querido y seguir.
Hace 2.000 años, tal vez la Biblia tenía un lugar en el mundo. Hace 1.000 años tal vez el cristianismo tenía sentido, era una buena manera de explicar los misterios del mundo. Hoy en día, con la ciencia, y todo lo que sabemos sobre el mundo, es fácil de ver, si sólo le abrirá los ojos y mirar con una mente racional, claro, que el cristianismo, la Biblia, la religión, todo pertenece a los libros de historia que a lo largo de la mitología de Roma y Grecia.
Dios y la religión son obsoletos.
No tener miedo del infierno a ser una buena persona y vivir una buena vida. Nunca he creído en Dios, en cualquier momento de mi vida, nunca he tenido ninguna religión de cualquier tipo nunca en mi vida, y no resultó un asesino en serie o un violador o cualquier otra cosa mala. Me levanto cada mañana, hago mi trabajo, pasar tiempo con mis amigos y mi familia, hacer actividades que me hacen feliz y me voy a dormir por la noche y dormir bien. Cuando usted está libre del miedo de la condenación eterna es libre de verdad vivir una vida buena y feliz.
El mejor argumento para ser ateo y no creer en Dios ... Nunca tomar una vida o causar daño a otro persona en el nombre de Dios y ser capaz de pensar lo que hice fue correcto y justo porque era lo que Dios quiere . Una de las cosas que la Biblia enseña que es bueno y verdadero, hacer a los demás como quieres que los demás te hagan a ti .... pero de nuevo, todas las religiones en el mundo enseña que el mensaje .... el cristianismo es una de esas religiones que tiene dificultades para practicar lo que predica aunque ....
Buenas noches, Samuel.
Gracias por su tiempo.
EC *will come back soon* [deleted] 42 months ago | reply
He siempre estado abierto a oir este tipo de ideas, por esto estoy de tu lado.
Iguales, Hunter (I mean Good night to you too).
tcdchameleon 42 months ago | reply
Again, I don't necessarilly agree with your assessment of heaven and hell. My interpretation of Hell is anything away from God. It is not a place so much as a state of mind. Again, it has a lot to do with translation. There are many Christian religions out there that go by a very bad translation of the meaning of Hell in the bible. However, the word Hell is translated everytime in the bible from the Hebrew word Sheol which simply means death or the dead would be another good translation of the word.
Now if you really think about this, the wages of sin are death, but whosoever believeth in him shall have eternal life, starts making a lot more sense.
If you are away from God, and you die you simply cease to exist and you go to be with the Sheol. However if you believe in God and you believe in Christ, you will have eternal life through him. Now this could mean many things, perhaps it means that your name will go on and people will remember you eternally after you are gone. Or perhaps it is something more magical and your soul does travel to be with God. Either way to me is better than the alternative of simply dieing.
But to answer your question "Is there free will?" Obviously there is, you and I can both choose many different paths. Without free will, we would not be allowed to be without God. Again the best I could possibly come up with is this. You have a child, you love this child with all of your heart. You have a couple of different options on how you raise this child. You can 1, try to protect him from everything in the world. Don't let him out of the house with out you, make him wear a helmet, knee pads, gloves, and a kevlar vest everytime he leaves the house and only then if you hold his hand the whole time. Or you can give him some of this equipment, the knowledge to use the equipment, and let him out into the world to learn his way. If you go the second route you know the child is going to get scraped up bruised up, and every now and again get a skinned knee. Your hope is that the skinned knee will remind the child to wear his safety gear and be protected the next time he falls. Your hope is that he skins his knee, but he only does it once before he learns a lesson.
God does this with us too. He sends us out in the world with the knowledge of his love. He gave us the knowledge to know that we can not make it with out his gear, but he gives us the opportunity to go and try it without his safety gear, but when we fail we have two choices as well, we can either go on trying to do it without the gear or we can turn to him get the gear and go into the world with confidence. That is your free will my friend.
Zombie Inc. Wholesale Zombies for Over 25 years 42 months ago | reply
1. The Bible teaches that the fate of people is predestined before they are even born.
Theological determinism happens when god predestines all that humans will do. By either by knowing or decreeing their actions in advance. Many christians say they are following “god’s plan” for their life. But free will can’t exist if our life has been determined for us ahead of time.
Romans 8:29-30
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 9:11-13
“Though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
2. You can’t offer a free will choice and follow it up with a threat.
Free will must be unconstrained by external circumstances. God tells us that we have free will to accept or deny him. But then threatens that we will be punished in life and burn in hell upon death if we deny him. Free will no longer exists when one choice comes with the threat of violent consequences.
Matthew 25:46
“They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
3. Some people are born without free will to earn their place in heaven. They are destined to hell the day they are born.
Imagine being born accused of a sin you didn’t commit. God commands that a person born to an unwed mother has no chance to ever enter heaven. Even the next ten generations of descendants will not be allowed into heaven. This command is obviously revoking a person’s free will to choose god and earn eternal life. They are eternally condemned no matter what they do.
Deuteronomy 23:2
“A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord: even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord”
4. How can there be free will when god created evil, uses delusions to trick people into believing what is false and hardens the hearts of people whenever pleases?
Christians will argue that all evil comes from the devil and it is our free will to follow god or the evil one. In several points in the Bible, god uses his power to cause people to do evil deeds and tricks them into believing what is false. Free will cannot exist if god is playing both sides of good and evil. That equates human beings to nothing more than pawns in a game of god’s amusement.
Isaiah 45:7
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Joshua 23:15
“But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you.”
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
“For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned“
Romans 9:18
“Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.”
I could go on, but I think the Bible has told it well enough. A real god would not need to threaten, torture and manipulate people to force them to believe.
There Jayson, even more proof that "free will" in your religion and with your god does not exist.
$$) 39 months ago | reply
d ko getz (sowi po)
ClintonsCanon 37 months ago | reply
i had a friend try tell me that believing in god would make me a better person. so i asked how. he replied with some speech about the belief of god and his love would make a person better than a person who does not.
i responded to that with saying one day he may walk into my house while im outside and see a pile of money on the table. that i left there, not the devil. his belief in god isnt what will make him take or leave the money, its his moral choice in life. \
but this guy also told me you could do a friend a favor by sleeping with his wife. (i thought the bible taught against this.)