THE SAMURAI AND HIS ATTENDANT -- Life and Protocol in Old Japan
Samurai ? Official ? In any case, a great "Samurai" image from Old Japan.
Regardless of the actors reenactment here, the kid looks too young for me to title this as a SAMURAI and CHUGEN. www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2846440663/
On the other hand, the Samurai were GAY, and having a very young male lover was the "Way of the Warrior" back then --- and the age of consent in Japan was more like NAMBLA territory in modern day USA. More on that coming up a little bit further down in this caption.
In real life, the two swords and top-knots were outlawed by the Government during the 1870s....but it took time to "filter down". The Samurai were, of course, extremely pissed to have the Government start telling them how they could, or could not get their hair permed.
Here's a bit of controversy to keep your history balanced and complete :
QUESTION for HETEREOSEXUAL MALES : Can a gay guy kick your ass ?
ANSWER : You're damn right ! Especially when he's a SAMURAI !
THE GAY LIFE in OLD JAPAN
These days, when we talk about or visualize the Glorious Samurai, our mention of them is usually devoid of something important. The world's social and religious aversion to homosexuality has worked to separate and sweep under the rug this once-understood and accepted facet of the Samurai.
In its place, we are left with a group of men who have been "cleansed and sanctified" in the minds of Westerners who have been raised in a nominally monotheistic religious culture, giving us a conservative republican Samurai Warrior with Western, Judeo-Christian family values, living with a so-called "honorable" code of ethics that makes for the stuff of macho dreams found in testosterone-fueled Hollywood movies.
Time to set the record straight :
CONSERVATIVE STATEMENT from the WEB :
www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-customs/japan-sam...
Samurai --- Virile, Strong, Warriors among Men, and Fighters after the Spirit of Bushido --- The Last Samurai of Hollywood fiction --- ALSO CARRIED THE BANNER OF HOMOSEXUAL LOVE INTO BATTLE WITH THEM, AND PRACTICED HOMOSEXUAL LOVE AS AN HONORED AND TRADITIONAL WAY OF LIFE.
Therefore, if you are a fan of "all things Samurai", you better not be anti-homosexual, and you better not be a GAY BASHER. The real Samurai held GAY LOVE in high esteem, and encouraged it. Gay love and relationships were considered beneficial for the youth, teaching him virtue, honesty and the appreciation of beauty.
WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES on the WEB, CULLED FROM HISTORICAL SOURCES :
"........Shudō is the Japanese tradition of age-structured homosexuality prevalent in samurai society from the medieval period until the end of the 19th century. The word is an abbreviation of wakashudō (若衆道), "the way of the young" or more precisely, "the way of young (若 waka) men (衆 shū)". The "dō" (道) is related to the Chinese word tao, considered to be a structured discipline and body of knowledge, as well as a path to awakening.
The older partner in the relationship was known as the nenja (念者), and the younger as the wakashū (若衆).
PEDERASTY or BUST !!!
The practice was held in high esteem, and was encouraged, especially within the samurai class. Their homosexual lifestyle was considered beneficial for the youth, teaching him virtue, honesty and the appreciation of beauty. Its value was contrasted with the love of women, which was blamed for feminizing men.
With the rise in power and influence of the merchant class, aspects of the practice of shudo were adopted by the middle classes, and homoerotic expression in Japan began to be more closely associated with traveling kabuki actors known as tobiko ( 飛子) , "fly boys," who moonlighted as prostitutes......."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
MILITARY SAME SEX LOVE
".......From religious circles, same-sex love spread to the warrior (samurai) class, where it was customary for a boy in the wakashū age category to undergo training in the martial arts by apprenticing to a more experienced adult man. The man was permitted, if the boy agreed, to take the boy as his lover until he came of age; this relationship, often formalized in a "brotherhood contract", was expected to be exclusive, with both partners swearing to take no other (male) lovers. This practice, along with clerical pederasty, developed into the codified system of age-structured homosexuality known as shudō, abbreviated from wakashūdo, the "way (do) of wakashū".
The older partner, in the role of nenja, would teach the wakashū martial skills, warrior etiquette, and the samurai code of honor, while his desire to be a good role model for his wakashū would lead him to behave more honorably himself; thus a shudō relationship was considered to have a "mutually ennobling effect". In addition, both parties were expected to be loyal unto death, and to assist the other both in feudal duties and in honor-driven obligations such as duels and vendettas. Although sex between the couple was expected to end when the boy came of age, the relationship would, ideally, develop into a life-long bond of friendship. At the same time, sexual activity with women was not barred (for either party), and once the boy came of age, both were free to seek other wakashū lovers.
Like later Edo same-sex practices, samurai shudō was strictly role-defined; the nenja was seen as the active, desiring, penetrative partner, while the younger, sexually receptive wakashū was considered to submit to the nenja's attentions out of love, loyalty, and affection, rather than sexual desire. Among the samurai class, adult men were (by definition) not permitted to take the wakashū role; only preadult boys (or, later, lower-class men) were considered legitimate targets of homosexual desire. In some cases, shudō relationships arose between boys of similar ages, but the parties were still divided into nenja and wakashū roles......"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan
YES, THE SAMURAI COULD, AND DID MARRY --- In spite of the fact that PEDERASTY WAS THE RULE when the men were doing their soldering and war-mongering, they did marry women under carefully observed social rules. However, this was not for mutual love and family relationships as Westerners would normally define marriage between a male and female. For the Samurai, sexual relations with a woman was more along the lines of a "necessary evil" to procreate for the purpose of making more little Samurai to keep things going.
WHY THE ANACHRONISTIC USE THE WORD "GAY" IN MY SAMURAI CAPTIONS ?
Some will call these guys "BI-SEXUAL", but for the sake of this caption, I'm sticking to "GAY" --- a 20th Century transformation of the word that used to mean PARTY-TIME HAPPY --- an in "The Gay '90s" --- but is now used for men who have a sexual preference for other males.
I am retroactively applying the modern "Gay" tag (in a performance sort of way) to liven up the discussion. If the Samurai were alive today, and "doing their thing", we would all be calling them "The Gay Military of Japan".
Actually, it is almost as ridiculous as some goofy Westerners saying "....the RAINBOW symbolizes the LGBT community....", thus causing conservative Christians to scramble in an effort to remove all Biblical Rainbows from pictures of Noah's Ark.
Any other appeal to "historical and cultural social context" to say these men were not homosexual (or that "Gay"and "Homosexual" are two different things) --- in spite of the Samurai's conditioned sexual preference for male intercourse --- is just a lame misdirect by modern-day Samurai lovers who are chagrined by the fact that their "warrior heroes" preferred the joy of porking other men instead of porking their wives. I say "pork", because in old Japan, sexual relations between men and women were not anything close to what we call "making love".
So, even while "makin' babies" under the "stuff we don't really want to do" rule, the Samurai continued to hold the sexual love and bonding with males as the preferred and highest highest love, and the "necessary evils" of being "joined to a woman" as an obligatorily social headache.
As we all know, there are plenty of Gay men living in many countries of the world today who, for various social reasons (including the threat of death), emotionally and sexually live in the same situation --- loving men, but setting up house with women --- some resolving the emotional predicament better than others.
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[From a series of ca.1870s-90s images on old Glass Lantern-Slides published by George Washington Wilson. Actual photographer unknown to me]
Check this one out, too : www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2846440663/
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RANDOM SOBA : www.flickriver.com/photos/24443965@N08/random/
Comments and faves
Peter Kocák 金恩, Stormcloud1001, ookami_dou, Brushronin, and 63 other people added this photo to their favorites.
ill bill [deleted] (48 months ago | reply)
love it
* Lobo * (47 months ago | reply)
Can anybody tell what the boy is carrying?? He looks like those cigarrette seller from the 20's :)
Okinawa Soba (47 months ago | reply)
Actually, I don't know ! It looks like he is carrying some official papers on behalf of his master, documents of some sore to be handed over to some "higher-up" they are going to meet.
Ametxa (46 months ago | reply)
It seems the samurai has a writing cane or brush in his right hand, so maybe the boy is a 'walking writing table' of sorts…
Please tag with
AcademyofPhotographyParadiso!
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INVITATION!!! Please add this fantastic work to The Academy of Photography Paradiso!
PLEASE BE SURE TO MAKE TWO COMMENTS IN THE POOL!!!
invited with SICI (2008-07-04)
Okinawa Soba (46 months ago | reply)
Hi Ametxa. I always thought that was folded-up fan (sensu). But, you might be right if it is a cased object.
sennalynn (45 months ago | reply)
Cool! But I always imagined samurai as taller... like Japanese guys these days.
Just looking at these old photos made me realize how fast humans are evolving!!
* Lobo * (45 months ago | reply)
I have come to that same conclusion from looking at old paintings and photos. We are changing, FAST!!!
Okinawa Soba (45 months ago | reply)
Many old western documents refer to the Japanese in friendly condescension (whatever THAT is) as the "little brown people" of Japan --- not "yellow" people, as in some texts that describe the Japanese as the "Yellow Peril". But, little they were -- compared to Westerners. It was diet thing, though....not so much genetic. After WW2, Japanese grew by leaps and bounds with the introduction of milk, vitamin-laced food products, and etc.
* Lobo * (45 months ago | reply)
I know diet has a lot to do with it, but when you think in the long term and the after-effect, it gets to the genetic level. Nowadays a kid may suffer from obesity yet he may not be a compulsive eater, it's just in his genes; this type of body morphology is eventually passed down to us. Wether we eat a lot or not; whether we like ir or not.
Okinawa Soba (45 months ago | reply)
Sensei. Good points you got there.
Kenyi72 [deleted] (43 months ago | reply)
Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Europe and Asia culture, and we'd love to have this added to the group!
WOW!!! I did not know that "little brown people" in my life about Japan. It is new to me. God bless you.
Redline748 (43 months ago | reply)
Hi I love the photo, I'm not very knowlegable on the samurai but I am fasinated, mostly what I know comes from movies like akira kurasawa, I'm just curious and wanted to ask if the dress code or hair style of samurai is still ilegal in Japan, I'm sure the swords are, mind you I think it's ilegal in most countries to walk around with a sword lol
subajogu (42 months ago | reply)
Nice samurai images! Were you able to find any photographs of Ryukyuan samurai?
Okinawa Soba (42 months ago | reply)
Sorry, no old pics of "Ryukyuan Samurai". The most written and talked about "Samurai" on Okinawa were actually the Japanese Occupation Forces dispatched by Satsuma [Kagoshima] who were basically hated by all of the Okinawans. From 1609 on (until Perry showed up in 1853) they were pretty much nothing but trouble.
subajogu (42 months ago | reply)
I found an old photo display (several pics thumbtacked to a wall) at one of the fish markets, which I believe was on Kokusai St. I took 3 or 4 shots but all are quite blurry so I may need to find that place again. I'll be better prepared next time.
gohakue (39 months ago | reply)
Cool photos! These old japanese pictures are usually a set up.They take black and white pics, then colored it later.(though this one is not colored^^) By the way,I think the boy is a student under the samurai who serves and learn from the samurai. They usually were childern from samurai families.
Okinawa Soba (39 months ago | reply)
Thanks, Gohakue, glad you like the pics !
Masinutoscana (37 months ago | reply)
fantastica!
Fistmele (36 months ago | reply)
Are you suggesting that as followers of the Spirit of Bushido that we cut peoples heads off if they dishonor us or commit ritual suicide if we dishonor our family names. I think saying if you want to represent yourself as having the Samurai spirit that you have somehow practice homosexual love is synonymous with a christian saying well they burned witches back in the good ole day so why not now. Just mho
Great pics by the way.
Okinawa Soba (36 months ago | reply)
[The following is my over-reactive reply to Gigawatt's comment above. Gigawatt's questions and comments were completely valid, and I was wrong to reply in the manner I did. At another comment to Gigawatt further below, I have apologized for my over-reaction and hypocritical squelching of his honest opinions. However, rather than delete my below reply to protect my already questionable reputation, I leave it as a reminder to myself to make sure I don't have a pine cone up my ass about something going on in my off-line, personal life before miss-reading a valid comment made by others, and replying in an un-called-for manner.]
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Hi Gigawatt !
Your allegory misses the mark.
Burning Witches was not a part of the Jewish Bible --- I think Jehovah instructed the Jews to skip the Bar-B-Q Roast, and just kill the Witches outright.
Even more than that, if you were a Jew way back when, Jehovah was not above ordering you and your men to slaughter entire cities and tribes of men, women and children...and their pets. And their non-Jew neighbors were just as bad. The Old Jewish Bible is a fascinating read, by the way.
Burning witches was not a part of the established "New Testament" Christian Tradition. It was a localized aberration on the part of a few hundred townsfolk around Salem, MA that lasted for less than two years out of a 1700 year run of other problems like the crusades, the inquisition, and denomination infighting.
Further, even at that time, other Christians condemned them, and wanted nothing to do with what went on in superstitious Salem and vicinity. Just because a few wackos in New England tried out an Old Testament remedy in the name of the New Testament Jesus, doesn't make that the over-riding and accepted culture of what goes for "Christianity" in the rest of the nation. Period.
ON THE OTHER HAND, Homosexuality was a part and parcel of the entire Samurai tradition and way of life. Homosexuality was inseparable from the Japanese Samurai tradition. It was dogma (and doggy style) across the board. It was not a temporary aberration of a few guys up in the hills of Hakata who wanted to whip out more than their swords with each other.
The world of the Samurai was one big GAY Samurai world. These sexual practices were a part and parcel of it all. It went right along with Bushido Code and all of the other so-called "honorable" ways of the Samurai. Bushido was a CODE developed and practiced by actively HOMOSEXUAL, and wonderfully GAY WARRIORS. You cannot separate the GAY from the SAMURAI. IT WAS LIFE AS THEY LIVED IT --- EVEN THE "MARRIED" ONES. ALL SAMURAI, ACROSS THE BOARD. PERIOD. So, get over it.
To put it simply, my dear Gigawatt, if you HOPPED INTO A TIME MACHINE, and went back to enjoy the experience of being a true Samurai in Japan, and walked in the ways of the Spirit of Bushido, you (that's YOU) would also be an honorable member of NAMBLA --- or should I say JMBLA.
CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR UPCOMING TIME TRAVEL PLANS !
BUT....ARE YOU REALLY READY TO GO ???
THE WAY YOU MADE YOUR COMMENT ABOVE, I REALLY DON'T THINK YOU ARE READY TO GO BACK AND BE A TRUE SAMURAI IN ALL THAT IT ENTAILED.
It does no good to appeal to the Spirit of the Samurai and the Spirit of Bushido while living in denial about the Samurai lifestyle that went with it all.
The Spirit of Christianity (or any other Religion) usually calls for a certain lifestyle to go with it. Likewise, to the TRUE SAMURAI, along with their codes of life and ethics came a GAY LIFESTYLE.
I have no problem with that. In fact, it is rather amusing to me --- especially when I see how modern-day depictions totally pretend that such Gay Samurai reality never existed, totally ignore history and reality, and turning these Samurai into some kind of FAKE, WESTERN MORALIZED, "CLEANSED" HETEROSEXUAL SAMURAI.
Of course, it is all a moot point. There are no Samurai today. They were banned by the Government of Japan back in the 19th century.
That's History. And I have no problem with stating the way it was.
As for the SPIRIT OF BUSHIDO....
If you follow this today, you are simply a BUSHIDOIST, not a Samurai.
I'm sure that there is nothing wrong with being a hetero-Bushidoist. But again, just sitting around eating peanuts while meditating on the supposed virtues of BUSHIDO is not the same thing as being a real Samurai Warrior.
As for cutting off heads, and committing ritual suicide, that's what they did. That was their code. That was their life. If YOU were a Samurai, that's what you would do, too, if called upon for such. Those Gay Samurai could really kick ass.
gaylifestylemonthly.com/2008/feb/gay-samurai. html
and this one, too :
www.8bm.com/diatribes/volume02/034/692.htm
Oh....and you are right, they are great pics ! Thanks !
dlmanrg (35 months ago | reply)
Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Esgrima,Escrime,Fencing,Fechten,Šerm;Antígua, Art,Theatre., and we'd love to have this added to the group!
Estariamos encantados de tener esta foto en el grupo.Gracias.
Nous sommes ravis d'avoir cette photo dans grupo.Merci.
We are delighted to have this photo in grupo.Thank you.
Wir freuen uns, dass dieses Foto in grupo.Danke.
Siamo felici di avere questa foto in grupo.Grazie.
Jsme potěšeni, že tato fotografie v grupo.Děkujeme vám.
Esgrima,Escrime,Fencing,Fechten,Šerm,Antígua, Art,Theatre.
dlmanrg (35 months ago | reply)
Esta magnífica imagen ha sido vista en....
Cette image a été vue magnifique ....
This image has been magnificent view ...
Dieses Bild wurde herrliche Aussicht ...
Questa immagine è stata magnifica vista ...
Tento obraz byl nádherný výhled ...
Gracias por dar premios en el grupo... Un saludo.
Merci de donner des prix pour le groupe ... Je vous remercie.
Thanks for giving prizes to the group ... Thank you.
Dank für die Preise an die Gruppe ... Vielen Dank.
Grazie per avermi premi al gruppo ... Buon giorno.
Poděkování za poskytnutí cen do skupiny ... Děkuji.
World Esgrima,Escrime, Fechten,Sword,Arms, Medieval,History,Antígua,Art,Theatre.
SnowLeopard (35 months ago | reply)
I find this post facinating. Some research a short while back taught me about the Greek and the agoge, which also involved the warrior way and homosexual relationships with younger men. (Spartans more specificially) I wonder why they didn't show that part in 300.... oh well.
But anyway, facinating to think that similar ancient traditons that existed so far apart. I wonder how widespread the practice was?
It is interesting to see what cultures will consider acceptable and what traditions are taboo. I also wonder what things we do today that future generations will view as "sick and wrong." We cannot judge these past civilations. We don't and cannot have the mindset that is required for 'being there.'
Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Okinawa Soba (35 months ago | reply)
SnowLeopard --- Thanks for the comment. As you can tell, my captions on this subject don't pass any judgment. I'm not a Bible Banger or a Religious moralist when it comes to consenting adult activities of a sexual nature. I have nothing against homosexuals and homosexuality, in spite of the fact that I'm as straight as a laser beam between here and the moon.
However, such history as the Spartans and Samurai have do not play well to Holllywood audiences, and the conversion of these guys into "real men" for modern-day novelists and screen writers is even more amazing that the Special Effects coming out of George Lucas's Industrial Light & Magic.
On the other hand, I am the first to throw stones, judge and condemn all cultures past and present that aim for the destruction and suppression of women and children --- you know, like foot crushing (wrongly called "foot binding"), genital mutilation, sati, honor killings, and etc.
When it comes to those things, I'm a real judgmental SOB.
Here I am at my "best" : www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/3462167744 /
As for gay guys playing dress up with swords and porking their teenage understudies who are "of age" and willing, if that's what they want to do, let 'em do it.
How widespread ? Hmmm. Less than 10% of the population were Samurai, I believe --- numbers that reflect modern, reputed homosexual populations of any given nation. Humans are basically unchanged in that department. In Japan, the gay guys had the Samurai option. In the West, they might have been Catholic Priests for all I know !
And speaking of the Priesthood, the various orders of Japan's priesthoods were no different with their Homosexuality. The only difference in Japan was, IT WAS NOT A SIN, and NOT A SHAME, and NOBODY HAD TO HIDE THEIR HOMOSEXUALITY.
This whole Gay Samurai thing would make a great graduation thesis for some student in Bob Jones University !
* Lobo * (35 months ago | reply)
It never ceases to amaze me... How you lean new stuff every day and everything you take for granted one second, can be torn apart the next.
I had read about gay samurai guys, bouzo (sp?) and the like in Japan, but I find it extraordinary that some folk still cling to the ideal image that was sold to them by Holy-Wood (*wink*). If you really are interested in the Spartans, the Japanese or the Neanderthals, and wish to defend their ideals and lifestyles, all it takes is 10 minutes of internet-based research and your comments will not make you look like an ignorant.
By the way, I'm not saying the Neanderthals were gay, although they DID go extinct, so maybe... who knows??
I've been away from this Flickr for too long. I missed these smart conversations. Greetings, Soba-san.
Lobo.
Fistmele (35 months ago | reply)
I don't think I made any comment that I should "get over". I never claimed the desire to be a samurai. I sure don't want to go back to feudal Japan, because it was a society run by maniacs, like any feudal system. I didn't say I had a problem with your statement that samurai back then were homosexual. The definition of homosexual is same sex relations and that was indeed what they were doing.
As far as I understand it samurai is just a name and a name can mean what you want it to. If someone today calls themselves a samurai, because they follow what they believe to be a set of standards so be it. Maybe they choose not to follow all because they either don't accept them or society doesn't, they shouldn't be deemed less than what they are. Again I am not a practitioner of Bushido nor do I wish to be, but to attack a group of people who call themselves that and justify that attack by defending a lifestyle is silly. I have no problem with your statement except that it is a sweeping statement that is resolute with the idea that things can't change with time. Much like the ideals that surround the rights of gays today, about how things shouldn't change because that's the way they were/are and it's just not right. This is such a stale viewpoint and narrow minded to boot.
As to your statement about them being "gay" I wouldn't use that term loosely, because I know that a lot of gay people would be very offended by being grouped with pedophiles and that's what these guys were. I suppose I may be narrow minded in thinking that at the ripe old age of 13 you should not be considered a consenting party. I do know that when I was 13 I would not have been able/wanted to make that decision. The age information was gleaned from the historical information that you pulled your above quote from.
www.stthomasu.ca/~parkhill/cj01/irepam.htm
I agree however that Hollywood does glamorize everything that they show in movies. They make Native Americans look ridiculous, the gangster lifestyle fabulous and feudal Japan noble and honorable in a western way.
Having said all that. I almost didn't waste my time writing this, because I am pretty sure you will only reiterate with another attack. I never wrote anything except my own "opinionated" statement and being a self stated person of such didn't expect you to have a double standard about it. You may say I am ignorant because of this and granted I am ignorant about many things. I don't however think you should pretty things up and say that these guys were gay. They were pedophiles who raised children, who I am sure they "loved", to think what was being done to them was ok. Maybe you should restate it as if you want to call yourself a samurai you should not be a pedophile basher. The kid above does look to be about 12-13 and yes he does look to young because he is a child.
Okinawa Soba (35 months ago | reply)
Gigawatt --- You are right, you didn't say anything you need to get over. I looked at your first comment, read my reply, and then the above. Either I was in a hurry, misunderstood what you were trying to say, or had a pine cone up my ass about something. Probably all three of those, none of which are a good excuse.
I apologize for not asking clarification of some things you said before I responded in what you described as my "double standard attack". I will have to bite that bullet, since I don't usually use the delete button to erase my stupidity. I accept you response, and thank you for taking the time to amplify your opinion. You make fair points which are good for the discussion. Thanks.
Let me restart my engine.
Concerning my "loose" use of the word GAY. I understand your position as you explain it, and your worry that it is tainted (in the case of the Samurai) with their predilection for young boys. My own caption reference to possible or borderline PEDOPHILIA was in my use of the acronym NAMBLA, which was inspired by the apparent youth of the boy in the photo.
In my case, I do not so finely divide the various social nuances that can be derived from or applied to the term GAY, or draw "age of consent" lines. In my caption, I used the word GAY almost equally with the term HOMOSEXUAL, and in my own world and social circles, they are equivalent. GAY is just an easier, non-slur euphemism for the more "clinical" HOMOSEXUAL. Any differences between the two words that others might impute or imply I simply take as local or personal nuances of private interpretation and imagination based on the latest, ever-changing language fads.
PEDOPHILE. That's a tough one, even legally and psychologically. However, the old "rules" call for (1) sexual interest is toward prepubescent youths only with no signs of pubic hair, and (2) sexual interest that is toward prepubescent youths only and does not include teenagers.
Japan and most countries until recently called that pedophile cut off as 12-and-younger. When I arrived in Japan, sex with 13 year old girl was considered a legal and non-pedophile activity. The age of consent for women in a few places in the USA was 12 even in my lifetime. This age 12-13 line was socially a fuzzy one, and even some Bible Commentaries say the Mary was 13-16 when she had Jesus. I guess this all points to a time when people were living shorter lives, and ran on biological rather than social anthems.
I am of the opinion that, though there might have been Pedophiles amongst the Samurai, the general 13-19 ages of the "understudies" and "Chugen" does not qualify the samurai to be classed as a group of Pedophiles. Although the boy in the staged photo is about 12-13 as you say, other photos show much older teenagers or "young men". So while respectfully understanding your opinion, I personally cannot group the Samurai Warriors under the umbrella of Pedophile Warriors.
That my comments amounted to a "sweeping statement that is resolute with the idea that things can't change with time", you are right. That is exactly what I wrote, because there is no evidence that the Samurai ever changed over time in this regard until the entire class was disbanded and over with in the 1870s.
Concerning marriage, in spite of the fact that the Samurai could and did generally enter into marriages and had children does not make them any less Gay or Homosexual to me. Such marriages were generally contracted for reasons foreign to most of us Westerners looking into it. Further, they generally looked on their wives and their so-called "love" relations with them as far below that of the "love and lover" relations they maintained with their fellow men.
Marriage was a given and mechanical means to breed with "inferior women" for the sole purpose of producing a male heir to inherit the mantle of the Samurai. It is also true that some of them discovered their "straight" side, and with the permission of superiors, were able to take a Mistress. In spite of these aberrations, I still feel it is historically accurate to class the Samurai and their culture of homosexuality and Pederasty under the GAY umbrella --- where my use of the word GAY is used by me in my own captions as an alternate or euphemism for HOMOSEXUAL.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
I do have a question about something you say (or imply) in your comments. You seem to imply that there are some people today who consider themselves to be Samurai, and that they might take offense at what I wrote.
In my own statements where I said "If you want to call yourself a Samurai......" I was being rhetorical about a reality that no longer exists, and had in mind any possible JAPANESE SAMURAI alternative versions of the non-homosexually styled (i.e. straight) Creative Anachronists who do modern-day re-enactments of the Knights, Ladies, and Battles of the European Middle Ages.
This is obviously a touchy subject. Again, my apologies for how I came off to you in my first reply. Your complaint against me in that regard is completely accepted. Thanks again for coming back with your further comment and well-explained thoughts.
Fistmele (35 months ago | reply)
I respect that, thank you for clarifying your stance.
I am left humbled and relieved.
ivanabrego (32 months ago | reply)
Beautiful image.
KimonoGuy (30 months ago | reply)
Hi, I'm an admin for a group called Men's Kimono, and we'd love to have this added to the group!
jamey4beads (26 months ago | reply)
Why is it that "things were so much nicer and easier in the past" ? This presentation of Japanese culture sounds suspiciously like an over-idealized conception of ancient Greek culture (also typically skewed). As far as anyone knows, homosexuals make up about ten percent of the population. The incidence of homosexual men among the military (including warrior organizations such as Samurai) may have been somewhat higher. Postulating that "they were all gay" or "they admired boy-love" is anachronistic and deluded. There was no such thing as "gay life" before there were gay men. You become a "gay man" when you profess to be one. (A 20th century phenomenon.) Otherwise you are homosexual, homoerotic and/or homophile. Rewriting history is counterproductive and silly. Should factual details of history be concealed--as happens all the time, particularly with homosexual or alternative sexual issues? Absolutely not! History should be transparent and available to everyone. But polarizing pop hog-wash is equally misguided. JDA
SnowLeopard (26 months ago | reply)
/\ I am reminded by wisdom given to me by my grandfather, "There weren't no such thing as 'the good old days.' If you hear someone talk about how much better it was back then, well it just means they forgot."
Okinawa Soba (26 months ago | reply)
JDA --- Thanks for the comment, even as complaining as it was.
Exactly what "...polarizing pop hog-wash..." were you referring to ? I checked the caption, and couldn't find anything of that nature. However, I did see three links that reference the subject (when I could have added 30) that embellish everything I tossed into the mix.
Being GAY and living GAY LIFE is a 20th century phenomena ? So you are saying there were no homosexuals until the 20th century ?
I have no problem with using the word GAY in a flickr caption to retroactively label HOMOSEXUALITY in past centuries. A rose is still a rose by any other name. If you get bogged down in semantics, you will miss the joys of literary license (The liberty taken by a writer in deviating from conventional form to achieve an effect). !
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
Furthermore, I am not bound (like you are) by the ridiculous 20th Century hijacking of the word GAY (in the case of my above caption, read: HOMOSEXUAL) for such a narrow-minded, cloistered use as you would have me adhere to, preventing me from using it retroactively to describe both HOMOSEXUALITY and PEDERASTY in any of its ancient forms.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty
I also said in the same caption, "...The Samurai were, of course, extremely pissed to have the Government start telling them how they could, or could not get their hair permed...." I'm surprised that you didn't jump in to remind me that PERM is a 20th Century word, and that the Hairdressers of old Japan would NEVER have used such a term !
Good Grief, JDA... LOOSEN UP !
The English language is flexible enough, and most readers are intelligent enough to know that I am intentionally using a popular coining of the word GAY (or the word PERM) to strike home some points about the Samurai --- who are themselves portrayed today with an equal amount of Hollywood-invented anachronisms that plague the common perception of what they really were, and how they really lived.
Now, where I can (and did) give links to other discussions and commentary), and am acquainted with Japan's take on the matter as well (having lived there for most of my life), YOU PROVIDE NO LINKS, NO BOOKS, and NO SOURCES to back up the sentiments expressed in your comment.
I also notice something else, you have been a "member" of flickr for over THREE YEARS, and haven't posted a single photo, or informed on any subject at all. Also, no profile, no contact info, no Nothing. Zilch. Zero.
As this is a Photo Sharing Site, I think it would be pretty cool if after three years of posting nothing, you posted a few pictures of Samurai (even fake ones), and then fill the caption block with your own commentary and links to support your position on the matter --- especially before coming around and complaining about others captions with your unsubstantiated and accusatory comments.
As it is, with your empty profile, no pictures, and a default Flickr notice on your profile page that says YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER ANYBODY, it is pretty hard for me to take your unsubstantiated comments and complaints seriously --- especially when you show a general lack of knowledge about Japanese culture and Samurai history.
I do understand that your comment was sincerely and passionately written. However, being passionate, and having opinions about a subject you are not acquainted with (Japanese Samurai Culture), and then giving your opinions here without historical back-up or any other reference, will run you the possibility of putting your self in the position of --- to loosely quote you --- making yourself guilty of slinging buckets of misguided hog wash.
Let me know when you get your pictures posted, and a viable position on the matter for all to read.
Thanks
noel43 (22 months ago | reply)
As for attribution - this photo goes well by style and labeling with other photos I have that are attributed to Kajima Seibei.
pointybunny (11 months ago | reply)
I just saw this photo as the homepage for a US tattoo shop. I knew immediately I had seen it in your collection!
Okinawa Soba (11 months ago | reply)
Hi PointyBunny --- At last count, pics from my photostream have been used to decorate hundreds of blogs and Websites. Although a few places have failed to provide a link back to Flickr, most blogs and Websites do. I have rated all of the oldies with CC (Creative Commons) License, so anybody is free to re-blog these photos without asking. Permission is already granted !
pointybunny (11 months ago | reply)
okies, I had thought you had the non commercial use license. They really are amazing photos.
Okinawa Soba (11 months ago | reply)
Hi PointBunny --- Yes, that's true. But, if folks contact me behind the scenes via "Flickr Mail" with a "commercial use" request, more often than not I say OK (sometimes GRATIS, sometimes for a FEE, it all depends on the nature and extent of the "commercial" enterprise).
The amount of folks who "rip-and-run" without credits or permission for commercial use are very few, so I don't waste my time playing the cop or prosecutor. If I do see it, I might sometimes mock them in a caption or write to them to cease and desist., but in most cases, 99% of what you see is OK, including commercial uses where I gave permission via private e-mail.
I'm glad you like the pics. Me, too !
D' Contreras (ILEXPHOTO) (9 months ago | reply)
I just don't understand how Samurai didn't use SHIELDS!!?
Okinawa Soba (9 months ago | reply)
The probably thought Shields got in the way of their metro-sexual fashion statements !
D' Contreras (ILEXPHOTO) (9 months ago | reply)
well, if they meet the Romans they should consider shields...
Okinawa Soba (9 months ago | reply)
Now that's a movie I would like to go see --- The First Century Roman Legions pitted against the 18th Century Samurai --- both sides brought together by a giant time machine. Numbers of troops being equal, and engaging on a grassy plain, who would eventually win ?
D' Contreras (ILEXPHOTO) (9 months ago | reply)
in "grassy plain" - Romans have 0 defeats...
But...who knows!?
Okinawa Soba (9 months ago | reply)
It is always possible that, after only 5 minutes of fighting, the Samurai would act upon a per-arranged signal, all yell BANZAI, and then kill themselves....while the Romans look on in disbelief !
When the news would reach Japan, the entire nation would be proud of the Samurai for dying such an honorable death (by spilling their own guts on the battlefield), thus confirming to the Japanese that they are surely the most noble, civilized, and supreme of all nations.
I have no idea how the Roman soldiers would report the matter.
D' Contreras (ILEXPHOTO) (9 months ago | reply)
fully agreed about "they are surely the most noble, civilized, and supreme of all nations"!!!
The romans would say something like "cowards! Gave up from a good fight! And with no SHIELDS!!!!"
I practiced Kenjutso for a while (I have 15 years of martial arts in my life) and certainly there is no better sword technique than the japanese!
But as Klinsmann said once, about talent and skills in soccer "if soccer deppends only in skill with the ball, Brazil should won all world cups...and we know it didn't hapen!"