|
|
Seems like the lawyer is representing "Yahoo! Inc." not Yahoo! Taiwan (雅虎國際資訊股份有限公司).
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Why Yahoo! keeps disappointing Flickr users?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
ya..I am so angry about Yahoo Taiwan. If you want to know .CK's contributed Flickr API, plz check .CK's Flickr profile.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
As I understand trademark law, if a trademark holder ( in this case, yahoo) fails to enforce the registration in the event of infringement, the trademark registration may be lost.
It's clear to me that the use of flickr.tw is a trademark infringement, however helpful .CK is to promoting flickr. Yahoo must defend its trademark or risk losing it.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Trademarks are trademarks. People don't like them stolen, any more than they like photo theft.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Ah...sorry...misled by some articles. The legal firm is hired by Yahoo Inc.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Flickr loves, Flickr(TM) eliminates. All your site are belongs to Yahoo! Inc.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
BTW, the entire flickr.tw (one of the main developer/promoter site in Taiwan) will be gone for good, because Yahoo! doesn't like it.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
No, because the owner used a trademark he had no right or permission to use...
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
actually, it's amazing that as late as Nov. 2005, CK was able to squat on the flickr.tw domain. looks like yahoo dropped the ball on that one.
interesting that the letter from Lee and Li mentions arbitration under the UN's World Intellectual Property Organization, when all of Taiwan's attempts to join the UN have been blocked, and they are apparently non-participating in the WIPO.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
So Yahoo & Flickr are expected to fight to defend other people's intellectual property, but are not supposed to be so fussy about their own?
How does that work?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Called a "double standard". Also known as "Do as I say, not as I do".
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
What Shexy said!
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
And why is this in the Help forum exactly?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Hey, it's 4:29 pacific here in San Francisco and the rest of the team is fast asleep. I don't have the back story to this and before we spiral out, give us a few hours to waken from the land of blinken and nod. Ok?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
go back to bed Heather :-)
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Patrick Costello, too late. Can't sleep.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
How does that work?
unfortunately, it doesn't work so well with pariah nations. but for our upset Taiwanese friends, Taiwan did make a commitment to comply with Intellectual Property Rights when it joined the WTO in 2002.
"Taiwan is not a signatory to most of the international conventions that provide for mutual trademark protection including the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, the Madrid Agreement Concerning the International Registration of Marks, the Paris Convention for the Protection of Intellectual Property, or the Convention Establishing the World Intellectual Property Organization. Nonetheless, Taiwan provides priority registration to trademark holders of all WTO member states."
PROTECTING YOUR IPR IN TAIWAN
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
CK is really great for flickr's spread, and yahoo taiwan press him closing his great website for flickr.
wretch... <- I said this word because that yahoo taiwan just bought a bsp named "wretch" this year , really wretch.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
ナコルル edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
No. He BROKE THE RULES. Simple.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
If Flickr hired him, the issue would be resolved.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
hmm, the Mandarin term for 'cybersquatter' translates literally as "internet cockroach" (just working on my vocab...)
網路蟑螂
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
He didn't break laws about Domain Name.
In fact he is a legal DN owner.
But he is depressed.
btw, he owned the dn not for money, and is legal using that dn for his website.
"internet cockroach" only regist a dn and just wait for company' pay.
If you know what CK did, you will never use the word with him.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
ナコルル edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
According to the related laws and regulations of Taiwan, even though .CK uses the trademark of Flickr as the url of his blog, and since:
1. he registered the url one year before Yahoo! owned the trademark in Taiwan, and
2. he doesn't use his blog commercially,
this case actually is debatable.
Why Taiwanese Flickr users have sympathy on him? .CK runs his blog very hard, and his blog really plays an important role in the popularization of Flickr in Taiwan. That's the reason many Taiwanese Flickr users don't think him as an "internet cockroach" by definition, and therefore holding a plea for him.
Although the warning letter was issued under the trademark holder's authorization, but I think the local legal action was taken regardless of the actual factors in Taiwanese internet environment. A devotional developer is treated as rudely as those real cybersquatters are. An ordinarily simple trademark defense pathetically causes a bad impact on the trademark holder's reputation. Is it worthy? Who should take more responsibility? Interesting.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
ナコルル:
I believe you that his intentions have been good.
however, there are broader definitions of 'cybersquatting' than yours. in fact, I'd think that he still might have the chance to be compensated for his past investment, and nobody would think worse of him for it.
"internet cockroach" in Chinese sounds worse to me than "cybersquatter" in English (which I find interesting), but it is not my intent to maliciously label him.
lastly, it still seems strange to me that Lee and Li are invoking the WIPO, when Taiwan has been shut out of that organization. Surely this case is complicated by lack of international recognition for Taiwan...
edit: "efforts" --> "investment"
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
dbthayer edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
Theodoranian|虎兒:
he registered the url one year before Yahoo! owned the trademark in Taiwan,
so yahoo didn't register the trademark in Taiwan until Nov. 2006? fascinating.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
So did Flickr make him stop using the API or did he do that himself in response to losing the Flickr.tw URL?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
dbthayer, I agree with you in some aspects. To my knowledge, most of the anger of Taiwanese internet users is aroused by the attitude presented in the warning letter. If you could read Chinese, you would know it is not true "nobody would think worse of him for it" according to that letter.
As for the term of cybersquatting, yes, the term "internet cockroach" has a very negative meaning in Chinese. So please take caution to the language barrier.
I am serving in law practicing in person. I didn't say Yahoo should not take the legal action to defense its trademark. IMHO, to defense this case needs more painstaking and considerate methods. I have no idea if the legal firm contacted/didn't contact with .CK before the issue of the letter, so I am not speaking for any party. This might be a legal strategy of Lee and Li. And I assumed they have counted all the good and bad impacts for Yahoo! in advance. Cheers.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
Theodoranian|虎兒 edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
dbthayer, time line as listed:
1. 2005, Nov. 1, Lee and Li applied the trademark of Flickr for Yahoo!. (Intellectual Property Office of the Ministry of Economic Affairs, Republic of China)
2. 2005, Nov. 14, .CK registered this url. (TWNIC, the domain name managing institute)
3. 2006, Nov. 16, the trademark got registered.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Theodoranian|虎兒:
I can/did read the letter. as you say, we don't know the full story. personally, I wouldn't get too sensitive about the tone of a letter from a lawyer. ya'll talk tough--it's what you do.
I understand the point about 'internet cockroach'. likewise, if somebody says 'cybersquatter' in English, it may not be as bad as interpreted by a Chinese person.
I used to know a couple of Canadian lawyers who worked for Lee and Li, but they're long gone now.
cheers.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
.CK wrote to me yesterday right when this happened and requested that we look into it. I apologized for the tone of the letter, told him (in short) that we loved him and all the stuff he's done over the years, explained (what I assumed) was going on, and told him that we'd check into it right away
Yahoo!'s a big company with thousands of employees in dozens of countries, and it's several people's job to protect IP and deal with phishing, squatting, different kinds of IP violations and stuff. As a rule, the people registering trademarked names are doing it do profit from traffic in ads directly or (more often) to extort the trademark holders (sometimes, successfully).
Therefore, the lawyers don't spend a lot of time individually crafting each letter they send -- and they definitely don't take into account contributions to API hacking, involvement or prominence in the blogging community, etc. -- everyone gets more or less the same letter, equally threatening. It's their job and it is generally not meant to be personally insulting or anything.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from .CK and neither have the lawyers (and we're now in touch with them and have explained the background) so we're at a bit of a loss -- I'm not sure why he would quit developing or complain publicly, given an apology (sent within minutes of his email to me), explanation and a promise to come to some reasonable solution.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Such legal action of Yahoo! Inc.who owns Flickr.com hurts the hearts of .CK & Chinese Flickr Fans. That's all & nothing more. Even Yahoo!'s a big company with thousands of employees in dozens of countries, Yahoo! could not work so roughly with no pre-research or study in this case. Especially Yahoo!.us or Yahoo!.tw hires an lawyer who comes form an traditional general counsel in TW maybe-without internet's common sense or common knowledge about fans' communities' works.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
metamuse edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
Stewart, you make me feel a lot better. Perhaps Flickr does love us afterall.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart:
As a close friend of .CK, although I can not speak for him, but I understand why .CK wants to quit the API development. The reason is jut as simple as the way Yahoo! treated him as a criminal. The law firm represents Yahoo did a very bad job on this.
Since he is only a leisure API writer/user, he doesn't even bother spend efforts to fight with a company like Yahoo. I believe there is a BETTER WAY in dealing things like that instead of sending some email out, and after all, say things like "the lawyers don't spend a lot of time individually crafting each letter they send" .
The law firm represents the Yahoo Inc. and their careless act ruin in the already not very good image in Taiwan. I wish the Yahoo Inc and Flickr can come to a better solution, as the way Yahoo/Flickr acts already pissed off many Flickr users in Taiwan.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I always think that if flickr were merged by Google not Yahoo, it would everything better now..... Q_Q
Yahoo!'s a big company and needn't to care about things independent of money.
It might be my prejudice. sorry.
I wish .CK could reserve his domain name and keeps making good APIs for flickr members, not for yahoo.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
pretty sure that flickr does care about .CK's passionate efforts, and also not alienating the Chinese community. Stewart's apology is a good start, don't you think?
unfortunately, there still may be legal issues to solve. From the Intellectual Property Office of the Ministry of Economic Affairs:
According to Article 62 of the Trademark Act:
"A trademark right infringement shall be deemed to have occurred where consent of trademark right holder is absent from any of the following conditions:
1. Knowingly using a trademark identical or similar to a well-known registered trademark of another person, or using the word(s) contained in the said well-known trademark as the company name, trade name or domain name or any other representation identifying the body or source of whose business, and hence diluting the distinctiveness or reputation of the said well-known trademark;
Traditional Chinese Version - 新聞稿 No. 41
I'm not a lawyer. Theodoranian|虎兒 will know more about this than I do.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
♥ shhexycorin ♥ when are you going to pitch in on behalf of Yahoo! in the 'smoking child' censorship thread?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
teotwawki:
aren't ...four threads about that topic enough?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I mean in this thread, unless I've missed shhexy's inevitable Yahoo! defence posting - it doesn't seem to be in any of the now locked threads.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I know which one(s) you mean--but it's got nothing to do with this one.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Aside from the delicious irony, no.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Amazon is a big company too.
Didn't they talk to pLog(Life Type) team before they sue anybody?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I can relate to Stewart's comment on how corporate lawyers usually don't spend much time crafting such letters. I used to work for an Yahoo-size internet company, and it was pretty common to see these IP/Trademark-related legal letters flying around (not just on the receiving end, we unfortunately had to send out quite a few letters as well).
.CK is an individual developer/blogger, so naturally he might feel a bit more threatened by the letter. He decided not to go through the legal blunders and posted the letter publicly on his blog, just to explain to his API tools users his decision to stop developing apps. So I think posting the letter publicly was not meant to be a form of complaint, or to stir up any kind of community uproar. IMHO sometimes it helps for the legal team in an international company to consult the local branch office first, to minimize the community impacts due to cultural differences, before taking certain actions. Perhaps a more subtle approach would have help accomplished the same thing better.
On the other hand, despite .CK's good intentions and passion for Flickr, it is unfortunate that he has used a domain name which is potentially in violation of trademark rights.
It's great seeing Stewart's response here. It shows we are still getting Flickr love. :) Just hope things will come to a resolution soon in the best interests of everyone.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Sorry, teotwawki, I think you've confused me with someone else.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I always think that if flickr were merged by Google not Yahoo [snip]
Surely Google isn't a garage outfit either?
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Two simple words ARROGANT and RUDE to Y company.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
jsnhsu edited this topic 57 months ago.
|
|
|
"(Some of the American guys think the US means / rules the whole world)".
You're assuming that everyone else posting here is from America... Not the case.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Sorry, I should point out whom seems to be at the original post. Anyway, feel that's not a good way to present my anger. So I've modified it. Sorry about that.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
the opening paragraph of .CK's 9/27 blog entry (please forgive my amateurish translation):
今日前後收到 Flickr founder Stewart 與理律蔡律師的來信. Stewart 信中大意是他花了些時間終於與加州及台灣的相關人取得聯繫, 並已請律師正式撤回該信函. 此後, 我將與 Flickr 直接協商解決此一網域歸屬爭議及相關法律問題.
Today I received letters from Flickr founder Stewart and Lee and Li, Attorneys-at-Law. The general point of Stewart's letter is that it took him some time to finally get in contact with relevant people in California and Taiwan, and that he has already instructed the lawyers to formally withdraw that [original] letter. Hereafter, I will directly consult with flickr to resolve this domain name dispute and interrelated legal issues.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
dbthayer Thanks for the translation. That sounds encouraging.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Thanks to those who understood where I was coming from above, and for everyone else, a little more context:
We will always encourage people to fully and openly participate in our community. In this open community, we want to find an appropriate balance between protecting the Flickr trademark, and still encouraging people to fully and openly communicate with Flickr and exchange information with it, so that they can create cool programs or services that make use of data from Flickr.
As I had previously mentioned, there are people out there, unfortunately, intentionally violating our rights in the Flickr-related domains or trademark. This is often done in an attempt to extort money, demanding that we buy a domain. Not only is this lame and spammy, but it ties up a lot of our time and legal resources.
Usually -- and this was not the case with flickr.tw -- the domain is not developed and is not being used (except, occasionally, as an ad farm). When we become aware of a deliberate infringement, we work with the legal team to send out formal cease & desist letters.
In the case of flickr.tw, we inadvertently approved of a formal demand letter being sent out, rather than working with .CK directly. This was unfortunate, because it seems clear that .CK is open to resolving our legal concerns in a friendly way.
I don't know that I would have recognized flickr.tw prior to this (I don't understand any Chinese and have always associated .CK with the yuan.cc site/URL instead) but I'm the boss and I take full responsibility for the mix up and the negative feelings the letter caused for .CK, and I apologize.
We (Flickr and all of Yahoo!) value .CK as a contributor to the Flickr developer community and truly hope that this doesn't permanently sour his feelings towards us.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Well done,Flickr!
BTW,
I think you should hire a more professional and more polite lawyer to handle this situation
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Great reaction, Stewart. In especially because kind consideration of a community issue was favored over blunt application of a law. Well, as Forrest Gumo puts it, shit happens -- what counts is how the community driver tackles it. And in this case, I guess, you are up with the expectations. I would absolutely appreciate would you consider the German Safe Search issue with the same warmness and diligence.
Posted 57 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Flickr.tw will close in October 20.
flickr.tw/2007/10/flickrtw_20071020.html
Posted 56 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
Feed – Subscribe to help discussion threads