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Accessibility in Flickr Gamma
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It's been a while now and I've not found anywhere in flickr groups if the problems with accessibility are being addressed in the gamma version.
I am hearing from friends who are vision-impaired or legally blind that they can no longer navigate around the site. The many "hovers" and "mouse-overs" are not accessible to them and they can't find their way to mail, their own tags, their own favorites and the links for getting to see the views/comments/interestingness/favorites/popular links.
Many sites that have made design changes will implement a page called "Skip Navigation" or give a link that will give instructions to people who have to use alternative navigation while online. Some sites display a link on each page near the top to "accessible format" which gives the layout in more vertical format without the mouse-overs and drop-down boxes.
Several friends who are members of flickr can no longer view images or upload images without great time and effort now. I brought this up in the comments thread at the time of the change to gamma. I was told that my concerns were passed to the design team. But, I've heard nothing since.
Posted at 1:01PM, 8 June 2006 PDT
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cobalt123 edited this topic 73 months ago.
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Flickr doesn't seem to use alt tags, which would probably go a long way to helping this no?
Posted 73 months ago.
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*phototristan edited this topic 73 months ago.
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That would help, yes, but navigation must be planned well that all most important links and anchors are found within two clicks that are AT THE TOP of the page and have alt tags. Thanks for Looking at this question!
Posted 73 months ago.
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bump
Posted 73 months ago.
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This is no generic solution, but you might want to suggest using the flickr mobile interface for a mostly-textual, simplified access to recent photos and comments.
Posted 73 months ago.
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I really don't want to let the issues of accessibility for visitors and members of flickr to be lost in the shuffle, so here is another bump. The options available for bringing back some accessibility are not that complicated to implement. What is so disappointing is that the Beta version was actually far more accessible to computer users with disabilities than most large websites! To the degree that there was decent "alt-tag" usage and navigation by content headers and links available, the Gamma change went backwards.
Since I teach about accessibility for the state I live in and work for, it is just a sad situation to see accessibility be given the heave-ho with the Gamma version. Could I at least get another nod from a flickr staff that these issues are being addressed? I repeat my offer to provide assistance as needed, as I am an assistive technology trainer with experience in the coding and options involved.
Posted 73 months ago.
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Although I would not want to generalise, I have always had the impression that accessibility was not a big priority for flickr (my request for the possibility of indicating language changes through html lang attribute seems to have been completely ignored) and found that some standards and accessibility advocates or practitioners who use flickr seemed rather uninterested. However, there are a few people who have recently starting talking about it more, perhaps the transition to gamma sparked new interest ? If you have not already seen these, check out Joe Clark's blog entry about it as well as Ian Lloyd's, the latter featuring a comment from George in response to Ian's post.
I also think that as much as flickr has some things to do to make accessibility better, there is something that users need to do as well, most notably provide meaningful information about their photos through titles and descriptions (something that I myself fail to do properly at times, relying heavily on tags, which is probably not the best way to go about it). But there is not much flickr can do about that, they cannot force users to provide this information (so you end up with a lot of photos with no descriptions and titles that are simply a series of numbers inherited from the camera).
Still, given the popularity of flickr and considering Yahoo now owns flickr (not to mention lawsuits in the US concerning Web accessibility, whether they were successful or not), accessibility is definitely something I would be seriously thinking more about if I were flickr.
Posted 73 months ago.
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Thanks for the link, Gustavo. That will help navigation for blind users, but not help vision impaired members.
To let flickr staff know how important a site for photo sharing is, think about people who take and share images with family. Those who are staff might want to know that an advantage of flickr over other such sites is the "all sizes" feature that allows someone who has reduced vision to view it in a very large or even huge size,with clarity. My brother, who is legally blind, is a nature lover who used to collect insects, moths and butterflies. He joined flickr for he could finally see his great hobby images again, since he lost his vision about 5 years ago. With only 10% remaining vision, viewing a flickr photo of nature in the original size is something that brings great joy.
Since the gamma change, he's lost relatively good navigation to find such images. Now it is very difficult to find his way to links, and links that he KNOWS are "there" but now buried in different places. The drop-down menus from the feature tabs are soooo small and only work for those with very good eyesight.
Posted 73 months ago.
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zara - thanks for pointing out these links! The blog for Ian Lloyd is especially clear on the need for navigation that works for everyone. In the blog entry and some comments you will see just how easy it is to at least START getting some accessibility back into flickr. I like what one comment said: "Every bit as important as ramps and handicapped parking spaces."
Posted 73 months ago.
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Three days in this forum and still no responses from staff?
As per my June 8 post:
Several friends who are members of flickr can no longer view images or upload images without great time and effort now. I brought this up in the comments thread at the time of the change to gamma. I was told that my concerns were passed to the design team. But, I've heard nothing since.
Still waiting for some kind of word on this issue. As a teacher who has promoted flickr in training sessions, I have many people that are waiting for some kind of word on restoring or acquiring more accessibility for members and visitors with disabilities.
Posted 73 months ago.
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cobalt123 edited this topic 73 months ago.
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Hi cobalt123 -
Thanks for your comments on the new navigation and its accessibility (or lack thereof).
We're certainly not disinterested in accessiblity! As I suggested in that brief discussion with Ian Lloyd, we've already added some alt labels to the new graphical navi. We knew that using graphics here was less than ideal, and are trying to find some time somewhere to make them textual again. We released the new system as we did because we knew it would work. Having things Just Work is usually our preference, and specifically in this case it was always our intention to go back later and make it better. :)
All that said, I'd love to hear your ideas on just how we could make the navigation system more accessible - We're quite pleased with the transition overall and would like to retain it, so any tips or ideas you'd like to share would be great!
Posted 72 months ago.
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George, thank you for responding. I was getting very concerned about lack of staff response for it is an issue that I feel is very critical for good websites and flickr is right at the top for me this year. Alt tags are one thing that is important, and navigation by content (headers (major/minor), links and ability to work within assistive technology like ZoomText and JAWS, as well as DragonNaturally Speaking. I guarantee you that the community of people with disabilities takes notice of sites that are user-friendly to people who use AT. You will have loyalty unbelievable to create an accessible website for hundreds or thousands of these people and their families and friends.
I'd like to send you good information and links that will be a great head-start for your use, but I don't want it to get lost in regular flickr email. Can you use my flickrmail to send me a good URL for you to receive an email with some file attachments? I attended the premier international conference of CSUN in LA in March this year. Your time will be well-spent attending the next:
California State University, Northridge Center on Disabilities'
22nd Annual International Technology and Persons with Disabilities Conference,
March 19-24, 2007 ~ Los Angeles, CA
This is a comprehensive, international conference, where all technologies across all ages; disabilities; levels of education and training; employment; and independent living are addressed. It is the largest conference of its kind!
www.csun.edu/cod/conf/index.htm
At this conference, there were SRO crowds filling each seminar session on use of the Internet, creating website accessibility, and the use of Mozilla Firefox's new Accessibility Extension and Toolbar. If you saw 300 people from around the world pack into each session, you'd see just how big an issue this is.
Let me know how I can pass along good information to you. I also have the ability to provide professionals for you as "beta testers" as you work to become more accessible with flickr. Will wait to hear from you.
Posted 72 months ago.
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Hi there -
That sounds good! The easiest way to get stuff to me in the first instance is via the Help System. Just make a note in your message that it's for my attention, and the help team will send it through.
Please don't worry about attaching anything just yet... what I'd really love to hear is what you think we should do to improve Flickr specifically, rather than to much general information. (You're the expert!)
Thanks again!
[added link]
Posted 72 months ago.
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George (staff) edited this topic 72 months ago.
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George, please. You’ve got Cal Henderson working for you. Please do not act like a newbie and ask us how to fix your own service.
You should have known better than to use tables for layout, super-small fonts, and invalid HTML. You essentially said “We’d love to improve our accessibility, but we’re really pleased with what we’ve come out with! Please tell us how we can retain every aspect of that without changes while also improving accessibility!”
Flickr staff should be sophisticated enough to know how to fix their own HTML problems. If you really need outside help, pay for it. Every single standardista uses your service and not all of us are expensive. Ian Lloyd and I have already provided free advice. The $36 million Yahoo spent on Flickr has to be good for something.
In the meantime, just to preclude any assertions that people with disabilities, including low-vision people, aren’t interested in photography, check out what happened when I taught a group of blind kids. Every time I turned my back they were either chatting with each other or editing photographs.
Posted 72 months ago.
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I agree with what Joe has said. People in the website business have no idea just how very many people rely on Internet sites for their window on the world. In my work, I see people all the time who use DragonNaturally Speaking to work around their physical disabilities. When a person who is quadriplegic can enjoy flickr by navigation that works with this AT, it is magical to see them go to town with the site. A person who is legally blind often has some remaining vision. The flickr images allow a link to view a photo in the original size, and that is often just large enough the viewer can be thrilled.
Even for those who can't see anything like "we" see, the site contains tremendous photos, descriptions, links, friendship and social opportunities, and groups of interest with topics for ALL people. These people with disabilities have friends and family on flickr. They also like to be able to download images from them, and share their own photos. Please don't put this on the back burner!
@George, I was not going to send you "general" links. I was offering a fully-annotated letter with specific files to attach. Remember that I TEACH this stuff, and also am a webmaster with our state's AT program. We have an accessible website and have achieved all the web standards, even many on the Bobby certification, which is hard to get. BTW, our site has hundreds and hundreds of photos on it, with small/large views and all with alt tags.
Posted 72 months ago.
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Wow...
cobalt123 - I'd love to continue talking with you, if you're still willing. I'll drop you a FlickrMail, which you can read, or not.
Posted 72 months ago.
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Got it and will work on a reply for your use, thanks.
Posted 72 months ago.
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No, thank you!
Posted 72 months ago.
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About a week ago I posted a fairly lengthy suggestion to FlickrIdeas about accessibility issues. Last I checked, no response. I dunno what to expect, really.
Posted 72 months ago.
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FYI, at the CSUN conference I attended a few months back, there were two presenters from Yahoo!. They are:
Victor Tsaran and Nate Koechley
Their presentation about accessibility included this specific statement which is online:
The Internet is in the middle of a dramatic shift from static to dynamic web sites. Many of these sites (collectively called Rich Internet Applications, or RIAs) are beginning to offer rich functionality previously found only in desktop-based software applications. This evolution of online interfaces presents a series of new challenges to those committed to and dependent upon accessibility. On the desktop, accessibility is maintained through interfaces that accept keyboard or mouse input interchangeably, and through Operating System-level (OS) Application Programming Interfaces (APIs) that facilitate detailed and continuous communication with available Assistive Technology (AT). In the browser, on the other hand, rich interfaces are too-often overlook (and sometimes block!) keyboard controls. To make matters worse, what primitive AT communication there is bypasses the OS’s API and is shared too infrequently.
Additionally, they made this statement about websites that convert to using bells and whistles such as flickr Gamma has gone to:
The Problem
Web sites have started replacing or augmenting less functional (and less attractive) pages of static hypertext and hyperlinks with rich interface widgets such as expandable menus, data grids, tree views, and tab panels. These widgets allow designers to reduce clutter and keep abundant features cleanly concealed. Responsive and event-based communication provides granular data refreshes and enables adaptiveness.
And take a look at this explanation:
Due to the way today’s screen readers understand web pages (a single parse to its buffer, onload), and the lack of clearly-defined mechanisms to present DHTML content to AT, much RIA functionality isn’t natively accessible. Without proper implementations that are considerate of accessibility needs, pages that were accessible in the past can easily become totally unusable for screen reader and keyboard users.
This leads to their conclusion, noted below:
Conclusion
Web site interfaces are quickly becoming more dynamic and sophisticated through the user of JavaScript, DHTML, and Ajax. The common conception that these technologies are inaccessible is a myth. Unfortunately though, all too many sites implementing these technologies are, in fact, inaccessible. In this paper, we’ve looked at four approaches that help make these rich-interface sites accessible for users of Assistive Technology, while also providing a better user experience for all users.
Adding accessibility after-the-fact is difficult, costly, and sometimes impossible. Therefore, as part of our longstanding interest in accessibility, Yahoo! is including discussion of and tooling for accessibility as part of our open-source Yahoo! User Interface Library of JavaScript utilities and widgets, and our Yahoo! Design Patterns Library of solutions to common interface needs. This approach hopes to embed accessibility into both Yahoo! and third-party RIAs from the beginning.
Thus, my suggestions and those from other flickr members are verifiable within the Yahoo! corporation and this information should give flickr staff some great leads just by contacting these two great presenters.
Posted 72 months ago.
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cobalt123 edited this topic 72 months ago.
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Hi Jess - Found it:
www.flickr.com/forums/ideas/24022/?search=accessibility
I dunno what to expect, really.
Things do slip by, especially if they're posted when we're asleep! But, i've noted down a few things over in the other post... I'd love your feedback.
Posted 72 months ago.
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Just so we don't get confused, this thread is in the Help forum and the link that George has given is in the Ideas forum...
I've posted some help tips over there, in that thread by Jess, for low vision members of flickr.
THIS thread is about all the general accessibility issues with flickr Gamma.
Posted 72 months ago.
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:)
Posted 72 months ago.
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*BUMP*
No, I've not sent George my email yet, but I knew our flickr staffer was out of town then, a week ago. Just checking in to see if there are any more folks that will be having input to pass along...
Posted 72 months ago.
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This thread was closed automatically due of a lack of responses over the last month.
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