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Perhaps the photographer has licensed those photos to Toyota.
There is nothing unethical about allowing a company to use a photo that you've posted to Flickr.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Hrm, it looks like Toyota is simply pulling images from Flickr.
Not so nice, after all.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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nope, all rights reserved. i know that if the link back is done its OK. but what about selling products as Toyota is doing. is that ethical?
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Ethics doesn't come in to it.
The question is whether Toyota got permission to use the image. I can have an image on Flickr that is marked All Rights Reserved, and license it to as many companies as I like. It is still All Rights Reserved.
"Licensing" an image means that you set up a legal agreement with someone about their use of the image. It does not mean giving them the copyright to the image.
There is nothing in the Flickr rules that forbids posting an image that you have also licensed to someone else. So, if Toyota has licensed that image for use on their website, it is legal, ethical, and within the Flickr rules.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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he didn't license the photo to Toyota.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Then he needs to file a Notice of Infringement with Toyota about their unauthorized use of his photo.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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PS, staff
When I first loaded that web page, it loaded an inordinate number of images from Flickr farm servers. I looked at the Page Source, but it's over my head. There were no strings of "flickr" or ".jpg" on the page.
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You would think major corporations would know better.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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It's a Flash file. The very talented photographer has confirmed that he certainly did not license the photo and they are using it without permission.
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I cannot but hope that the very talented photographer retains a very talented IP lawyer and hits hard.
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Burnt Umber Major corporations don't know much. I am currently engaged in correspondence with a major airline that seems to think its site is not commercial. I regard this as good news, as next time I book I don't expect to pay.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Well, Toyota will hear about this pretty soon. It's gone viral on Twitter.
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Astonishing. One of my photos, one of those marked "All Rights Reserved" no less, has shown up there. Do they not know? Or not care? Or is this a case of any press is good press?
Grrr.
Mind you, there are some nice photos on that site :)
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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I am the photographer in question of the photo of the bears:
www.flickr.com/photos/calanan/4074191630
...and I can verify that permission was not requested nor was the photo properly licensed.
(I also made comments on the other Flickr photos I found used/linked at the 4Runner site in order to verify if those talented photographers were asked permission.)
Although the image is, by default, copyrighted unfortunately it was never registered with the US Copyright Office and I'm told this severely limits any compensation. Tough lesson learned.
So far I have neither contacted Toyota nor have any of their representatives contacted me. Beyond that I won't disclose what's happening behind the scenes but will update this topic if folks are interested.
Thanks,
- mike
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calanan edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Please do keep us updated.
Or, if staff find this to be off topic, feel free to start a thread in the Photographer's Rights group.
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FWIW, I just realised now that there are additional Flickr photos being used in the tabbed categories on the right side of the page. And I can confirm that I see the Toyota loading images from farm*.flickr... when loading any of those Flash pages.
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Calanan notified me that my copyrighted photo was also used without permission.
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Hey folks,
Sorry to be late to the party, but we're going to look into this and take the appropriate action if necessary. I'll update after a look-about.
Thanks for the report!
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Thanks.
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@zyrcster
One of my photos is involved in this. I'm in contact with Saachi and Saachi (Toyota's advertising company) and so far they've been responsive and understanding. I'm planning on speaking to them again today.
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By the appearance of mine "couple sitting by fire" these are not designed into the ad as mine is distorted because it is a vertical placed into a horizontal spot so apparently these are computer generated and not designed however that doesn't give Toyota too use copyrighted material with out permission and compensation.
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They did not have permission to use my image either.
www.flickr.com/photos/dlsimages/2474101261/
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Hi there. We (Toyota) are in the process of pulling the photos. We will also be contacting each photographer directly.
Thanks,
Scott DeYager
Toyota Motor Sales, USA
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bad toyota! BAD BAD bad
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perhaps each photographer will be offered the opportunity to nab a shiny new toyota off the lot to use for awhile.
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 Interesting take...my 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid is starting to look a little long in the tooth, might make an interesting story for them to turn me into a happy Toyota Prius driver! ;)
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calanan edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Why not?
You make photographs that they use for free.
They make cars that you use for free.
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Toyota USA
Hi Scott,
I'm surprised that nobody at Toyota considered the implications infringing copyrights to advertise your products. Surely Toyota must have legal counsel who have read the Copyright Act?
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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/cynic mode on
They'll blame an intern
As if no one was supervising the intern.
/cynic mode off
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ColleenM
Intern still works for them. And the intern had to get someone to pull the switch to put the photos on their corporate website.
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I applaud Toyota for stepping into the lion's den and acting so quickly to contact the photographers and make things right.
*applauds*
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I was very surprised to be notified (by another flickr member, not Toyota) that one of my photos was on their 4Runner website. I've fired off my angry email to Toyota. They should really know better!
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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FYI see above
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/111630/717527/
Hi there. We (Toyota) are in the process of pulling the photos. We will also be contacting each photographer directly.
Thanks,
Scott DeYager
Toyota Motor Sales, USA
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Can we now address the issue of Toyota holding an account on FLickr at all, then?
Clearly commercial use, and this place gets more and more loaded with government agencies, ignored (although reported) commercial accounts and commercial sponsorship enterprises all the time.
It's taking the shine off the place, to be honest.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Here are some of the fine photos that Toyota used for their advertising campaign without permission. Damn, I love galleries!
www.flickr.com/photos/jakerome/galleries/72157622608940395
www.flickr.com/photos/jakerome/galleries/72157622733291894
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Brock There are corporations who have accounts on Flickr. This sometimes falls within the TOS. There are photos of corporate events here which are not attempting to sell anything to anyone.
However, it appears the vast majority of photos are promotional in nature. I see the account is not NIPSA. So no one has reported it, or staff have decided the stream is not really selling anything.
Keep in mind, Flickr is a use moderated forum. if no users complain then staff has no real Idea what is going on. if it offends you then report it.
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 I must admit the other photographers involved took some damn fine photos!
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Can we now address the issue of Toyota holding an account on FLickr at all, then?
Clearly commercial use, and this place gets more and more loaded with government agencies, ignored (although reported) commercial accounts and commercial sponsorship enterprises all the time.
It's taking the shine off the place, to be honest.
+1
ETA: FWIW, I've reported accounts before that were obviously commercial in nature, run by big-name companies, and nothing was done. The more these types of accounts spring up (and the more visible they are), the less this seems like a community and more like just another website. I know Flickr is incredibly huge now, but still...
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FlyButtafly edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Burnt Umber: I am aware of all the aspects of your post. I have reported numerous commercial accounts and several are still there - even the most blatant ones that are very unlikely to be commercial agreement enterprises.
Either Flickr is overwhelmed with abuse report cases or they are softening their approach to company accounts for the bottom line benefits of a few more pro subscriptions. The latter is the long, slipper slope of shitty adverts all over Flickr - just in the form of 'user participation' rather than blatant ads on the page.
I liked the initial concept of 'no adverts' on Flickr. I'd rather that didn't weasel into 'no actual banners anywhere but we may let companies prominently participate and WHO KNOWS it may be good for them commercially to do so'
/takes backhand.
It sucks.
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Brock edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Yes the worst that happens to a reported commercial account is that they are NIPSA'd. The number of these accounts is proliferating and ruining Flickr for me.
And how do the blatant sales accounts get a safe staff review in the first place?
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i only days ago i was stunned to see a comment here in these very threads by a member asserting vehemently that flickr never gets used for stock photo purposes...but of course...
why would anyone use flickr when they can pay an agency for usage rights...duh
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Yes the worst that happens to a reported commercial account is that they are NIPSA'd.
That is not always true. I reported several accounts over the last several days for selling stuff and all the accounts are now gone. These accounts were like catalogs and had prices under the images, DARRR!
There does seem to be an acceptable level of commercialism on Flickr. For example you can have one link to a commercial site in your profile. If you have more than this and you are not discussing direct sales on Flickr then it does seem the account only gets NIPSA.
I don't see the Toyota account as directly selling or even marketing here. There are no links to their car sales websites. Nothing really that say "buy me" or "go to Toyota.com and find a deal".
Is this stream in the spirit of what is Flickr? NO. Is it the worst thing a corporation can do? No.
I suspect if someone were to report this stream staff would set it to NIPSA.
Brock If you want to send me some URL's in private I will be happy to take a whack at them.
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FWIW, all Flickr photos have been pulled from the 4Runner site.
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 That is not always true. I reported several accounts over the last several days for selling stuff and all the accounts are now gone. These accounts were like catalogs and had prices under the images, DARRR!
I'd venture a guess that they were all individuals selling stuff through their accounts though, right? Not like a corporate account, which is what we're talking about here. I've been on corporate/commercial websites where they've blatantly advertised their photostream ("see more of our photos on Flickr" type verbiage) and followed the flickr logo (yes, they've even used the flickr logo - presumably without permission, but who knows? - on their website) to their stream to find a bunch of promo-type images like Toyota has. I've reported them, and the accounts are still there.
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FlyButtafly Well that's not right. My offer extends to you as well. I don't mind if you send them to me to take a look. Staff already hates me. I don't mind sending more AR's there way. It keeps them busy.
The accounts I reported were both individuals and corporations. No big corporations like Toyota but small time clothing fabricators. Some of them were literally catalogs with a link under them go to supernewcoolclothing.com.
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congratulations michael...
that won't help pay for your next lens...but at least you got the point across
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Correction:
There are apparently two separate 4Runner sites, the Flickr photos have only been removed from www.toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/4Runner/ not from www.toyota.com/new4runner/
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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I'd like to know why Toyota thought it was ok to use Flickr photos for their website. Are they too lazy to ask for permission? Perhaps they want to avoid usage fees for stock photos. I'd be interested in some answers from Toyota.
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 You should save the .swf file for your records.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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You know what, all they did was remove the Flickr photos on the hiking page. Many other photos are still shown on the other pages.
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jakerome
That was my first thought. A cap was up in my photostream the same day the site launched.
Bet that intern is busy today.
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Has anyone whose photos were used by been contacted?
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calanan edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Awesome, just read this whole story, pretty nice of Toyota. As if they did't have the money to pay each photographer some 100$ and that's it and just use their photos legal..
Well, I'd contact them personally and demand compensation. I'm sure then you can reach something.. The fotos were and are still being used illegaly , so the have to pay for that. It's as simple as that.
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calanan: Stuart has been in contact with someone:
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/111630/#reply717492
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I've been in contact with Saachi & Saachi, but still waiting to be contacted about the resolution Scott DeYager wrote about.
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Toyota has not contacted me about the use of my image before or after yet. Figured it might take them a little while though.
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d_nurv~unsafe says:
> i only days ago i was stunned to see a comment here in these very
> threads by a member asserting vehemently that flickr never gets
> used for stock photo purposes...but of course...
> why would anyone use flickr when they can pay an agency for
> usage rights...duh
Actually, I think it is my comment your are referring to. What I actually said was that no-one uses flickr to BUY stock photography. The emphasis being on the word buy. This does kind of prove the point - people (and it seems multinationals) use flickr to steal images not to BUY them. Interestingly just setting the rights to "all rights reservered" didn't stop this.
I sincerly hope that flickr will be working with the individuals who images have been stolen this way to help them get an appropriate level of compensation.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Toyota apologizes for pulling images from Flickr without photographer permission. Images from a handful of photographers appeared on a Toyota site for five days. We’re working quickly to reach out to the individual photographers involved. Until then, the images have been removed, and corrections have been made to the process of pulling images from Flickr.
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From DMU's favorite Attorney Bryan...
You need an intellectual property attorney. There is a national firm called Greenberg Traurig that practices that type of law. Www.gtlaw.com
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Toyota USA That would be great, except ALL the photos are still on one site, and MOST of the photos are still on the other site.
I look forward to hearing about how Toyota quickly paid the photographer's a fee beyond your usage (typical quotes show that as $500-1500/image). Considering it will probably cost Toyota $10,000 in lawyer fees just to write the letter contacting the photographers that would be a sensible move.
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I've updated my blog post with some helpful links on copyright that I was given during today's events.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Here is my photo that Toyota used without permission. I would really like to understand how they plan to compensate the photographers who's work they used without permission.
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i'm with you on that mr B...
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I am one of the photographers involved as well. While I was a tad honored to see the very good pic of mine there. I was also angry that I was not requested permission for this purpose as I generally charge a standare Professional Photo rate for commercial purposes.
Im sure the mistake was someone in the add department the works for them and its good to see they will pull that sight down and contact those involved. So far I havent heard from them yet. They best thing they could do is basically apologize and offer the proper commercial reimburesment and then with permission put up the photos again of those who approve.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Companies always put the blame on an intern or someone new that didn't know what they were doing (I've heard it all!). Poor training is no excuse. Their employees=their problem. They used your photos. If they're a good company, the photographers will be paid a fair price for the use of the photos.
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I just took a gander at Toyota's photostream and I REALLY don't understand how that's not considered advertisement
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i have to say that what toyota did here just blows my mind in its stupidity.
they want free campfire images?
here's 2000+, free for commercial use:
www.flickr.com/search/?q=campfire&l=4&ss=2
stupid toyota.
i mean it is one thing for a company to violate copyright, and another thing to do it entirely unnecessarily.
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Ya. Since when can interns edit the toyota.com webpage?
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And, of course, if you were caught using one of their images for commercial gain without permission, they'd howl blue murder...
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striatic Pretty much the 2nd thing I thought. There are so many photos they could have picked; they obviously picked the ones that held the greatest commercial value to them without considering the copyright license.
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thanks for the heads up calanan. my pic was also used without permission
no contact from Toyota
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Toyota USA said;
Toyota apologizes for pulling images from Flickr without photographer permission. Images from a handful of photographers appeared on a Toyota site for five days. We’re working quickly to reach out to the individual photographers involved. Until then, the images have been removed, and corrections have been made to the process of pulling images from Flickr.
i have to wonder if this would be an appropriate response if say, a bunch of vechicles were stolen from Toyota.
We apologize for aquiring vehicles from Toyota without permission. A handful of vehicles disappeared from Toyota dealers for five days. We’re working quickly to reach out to the individual dealers involved. Until then, the vehicles have been returned, and corrections have been made to the process of aquiring said vehicles from Toyota.
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"i have to wonder if this would be an appropriate response if say, a bunch of vechicles were stolen from Toyota."
Toyota vehicles aren't a dime a dozen, whereas flickr photos aren't even a dime a dozen.
which is why it is flabbergasting to me that Toyota would nab these incredibly generic images under copyright when literally thousands of similarly generic images are available free for commercial use.
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striatic -- perhaps none of the free photos suited their needs. they likely figured they could just take them and no one would notice.
and while flickr photos aren't even a dime a dozen in the general sense, to the individual photographer, their photos could be priceless.
i certainly hope Toyota gives each photographer a better explanation and apology than the lame one posted above.
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I'm sure a standard usage fee would be welcomed, too...
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I'm surprised Toyota doesn't blame this whole affair on floormats.
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IrenicRhonda said:
"the worst that happens to a reported commercial account is that they are NIPSA'd. "
As the community guidelines state that your account will be *terminated* for such misuse, i am curious as to where that information came from.
Furthermore, since staff have participated in this discussion, i fail to understand why Toyota's flickr account has not yet been deleted.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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 Maproom Systems There are various degrees of commercial use.
URL links to commercial non adult sites always end in a NIPSA. This is Flickr's way of giving a second chance. A slap on the wrist so to speak.
Now take the same URL links and add to it "for sale on Etsy just $14.99" and poof kiss that baby goodbye.
Staff are tolerant and contrary to some discussions they grant a good deal of leeway. As I stated above there are corporate accounts on Flickr. As long as they are not actively engaged in selling their products then staff usually has no problem with it. Various aspects of Yahoo have numerous accounts on Flickr.
However, the Toyota account is engaging in passive sales. In effect advertising products.
In addition, Toyota’s all-new telematics service, Safety Connect™, will become available on the 2010 Prius. Safety Connect will offer four safety and security features: Automatic Collision Notification, Stolen Vehicle Location, Emergency Assistance Button (SOS), and Roadside Assistance. Safety Connect will be available by subscription, with an included one-year trial subscription. MSRP for the system and service will be $450. One-year renewal subscriptions to Safety Connect will be available for $139.95, with multi-year subscriptions also available.
___________________________________________________
Why has it not been deleted? Perhaps no one ever reported it. Without an Abuse Report any stream will last forever on Flickr regardless of the rule violations.
The quot above came from a set that had 1544 views. Maybe none of those viewers reported anything.
However, at this point in time this account is safe. I doubt Flickr will dump it while there is open communications between Toyota and Flickr members & staff.
I have no doubt that once this is all sorted out the Toyota account will go away.
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it is not simply "contrary to some discussions," it is contrary to the community guidelines and terms of service.
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Flickr staff used to delete accounts for commercial use, but it seems that these days they're much more lax in (1) defining commercial use (the term seems to be so narrow that almost nothing qualifies as commercial use); and (2) actually acting upon accounts that violate the "no commercial use" guideline.
I'm not staff, so I'm not repeating flickr policy; just stating how it appears to me.
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well, i'm obviously not staff, either, but I can still repeat flickr policy:
Flickr is for personal use only. If we find you selling products, services, or yourself through your photostream, we will terminate your account. Any other commercial use of Flickr, Flickr technologies (including APIs, FlickrMail, etc), or Flickr accounts must be approved by Flickr.
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Any other commercial use of Flickr, Flickr technologies (including APIs, FlickrMail, etc), or Flickr accounts must be approved by Flickr.
Does anyone posting in this thread know whether Toyota has or has not been approved by Flickr to use an account here?
It is possible that Flickr and Toyota have a partnership agreement that allows Toyota to have an account here.
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"...must be approved by Flickr".
That bit's kind of important - if Flickr have an arrangement with Toyota, the account won't be going anywhere.
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yes, i agree.
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/111760/
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striatic How many photos do you have of 2 bears walking towards you down you a trail? I'm not sure there's more than 1 on Flickr.
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There probably are a LOT of them, but not the kind of bear that Toyota necessarily wants to use
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 That just made my day.
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Seriously, has anyone involved with this received any contact whatsoever from ?
I have not and frankly I'm upset and disappointed that, 24 hours after this issue was brought to light, Toyota has not contacted any of the photographers to discuss proper compensation, let alone apologise and explain how this could have happened.
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they're probably running round with the lawyers, composing a statement about how they can't/won't compensate you. if compensation is what you're after, then perhaps you and those affected should band together and get a lawyer to contact THEM first.
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No word yet, and its not hard, each image linked to the original photographer so all they have to do is send a flickr mail.
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@calanan It's been 48 hours since I brought it up with Toyota and haven't had anyone reach out to me about resolution. I'm giving them until close of business today, then I'm probably going to send my invoice to Saachi & Saachi.
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I too have not yet been contacted by Toyota. ugh
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FYI, PDN (Photo District News) has picked up this story at PDNPulse
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700+ illustrations of Toyota products - and this is OK within Flickr guidelines?! But at least they're not trying to sell cars on Etsy......
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it's also funny that they are trying to appeal to "backpackers" and their love of the environment, but can you imagine a vehicle that rapes the wilderness more than this vehicle in the Toyota photostream?:
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/toyotausa/4072896764/]
"All Terrain Video Gaming?"
let's all drive out into the wilderness in our overweight, low MPG double cab and spew noise pollution while playing video games on our power sucking subwoofers and giant plasma screens.
talk about grotesque mixed messages.
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The most recent Toyota photos are a little product catloggy, but if you glance through the stream you'll see that most of the images lack the extended descriptions. Context is important-- without the extended description, they are just photos of their vehicles.
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Also, isn't it fingerpointy?
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I took this shot a couple of weeks ago, now tinged with a little irony - particularly since that's Half Dome in the distance - the shot that they lifted from my photostream.
@striatic My 9 year old Celica is listed at 32mpg highway. Though I expect it'd get a little less if I turned on my in-built 42" plasma gaming monitor. ;-)
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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Stuart Zero edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Not impressed at all....
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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[ Not Bad U ] back in the game edited this topic 6 weeks ago.
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Toyota illegally used one of my photos "Fishing"....still waiting to hear from them!!
Posted 6 weeks ago.
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