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It's SOP regarding admins of the groups. If the adminship has a history of not following TOS regarding group management, the group goes bye bye. It's happened many times in the past.
Posted 32 months ago.
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In many cases, the group admins were also removed from Flickr when a group was deleted. It depends on the group, the behavior in the group, the admin, and the admin's behavior. No two situations will ever be identical.
Sounds like the admins were fortunate in this case.
Posted 32 months ago.
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In most groups, the admins understand that they are responsible for ensuring that the activity within the group complies with the Yahoo! Terms of Service and our Community Guidelines.
When one of the people causing trouble is the admin, it's sort of a no win situation.
While the idea of an uncensored groups is interesting from a hypothetical point of view, in reality, it's something that won't likely work out in the long run. Luckily, the internet is a lovely big backyard and it's likely that there's some other playground that might welcome such a chaos engine.
Posted 32 months ago.
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That might be SOP, but it's using a sledge hammer when watchmakers hammer will do. It destroys months of content, hurts the hundreds of innocent users and their community, and does nothing make the users love Flickr. No one wins, except maybe the user who caused all this, who seems to still have his account and is unfazed.
Posted 32 months ago.
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So, Heather, are you suggesting paying Flickr users go else where, even if they did not break the rules and are hurt by your actions?
Posted 32 months ago.
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honestly who cares, I told Thomas he was being ignorant, but he like always had to stand on his soapbox, and announce the his problems with one person to his little internet world, in which he think he has become so important.
This is what will happen, Thomas Hawk will once again rise to his feet and take the corporate juggernaut ( in his mind ) of flickr staff. He will take to his blog like he always has, and whine like a baby because his little group was nuked. He will throw a public temper tantrum under the guise of sticking it to the man, also known as flickr, or who ever pisses him off that week in particular.
I say good riddance, that group never promoted any support for other photog, just a bitch box, for people who have nothing better to do with their lives...
Posted 32 months ago.
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So, Heather, are you suggesting paying Flickr users go else where, even if they did not break the rules and are hurt by your actions?
In creating any group, it is the admin(s) responsibility to ensure that the activity within the group complies with the Yahoo! TOS and the Community Guidelines. While you might want to lay the blame at our door, in the end, it can only be placed upon the shoulders of the admin(s) themselves.
We're talking about an extreme edge case kind of group that sort of defies what Flickr is, by chucking the TOS and the Community Guidelines out the window. Flickr is a community with fences. If you want the open range, then unfortunately, what you want to do is beyond what we allow.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Interestingly, in all other situations, *individuals* are either warned and deleted or just deleted.
Somehow, in this situation, the proper action was never taken against an individual who issued ToS violating threats, and instead an entire group was targeted.
No agenda there though.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Ѕhims
That's not accurate. In other situations groups have been deleted AND the admins removed from Flickr.
Posted 32 months ago.
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@Pine Ridge Photo Club...it's clear you never spent much time there. You have ZERO understanding of what that group was to its membership. Speak not of things you do not understand.
Posted 32 months ago.
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I'd love to hear that tale. I would bet the violations were violations of the Group and it's content, but that wouldn't quite fit here now would it?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Oh good another thread to be locked.
Posted 32 months ago.
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That's not true, shims, I've witnessed whole groups deleted in the past.
Posted 32 months ago.
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@Pine Ridge Photo Club...it's clear you never spent much time there. You have ZERO understanding of what that group was to its membership. Speak not of things you do not understand.
I spent some time there. I think he's pretty much spot on.
Posted 32 months ago.
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FWIW, PEO suffered the same fate as well. They got just as much (read: none) warning.
www.flickr.com/help/forum/95523/?search=peo
Posted 32 months ago.
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Starts passing out midol by the truckload.
Posted 32 months ago.
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We're talking about an extreme edge case kind of group that sort of defies what Flickr is
Really? This is a group that has spawned great friendships. It created a print magazine. It's inspired real life meet-ups and friendships. It's improved the photography of hundreds of people, by teaching them to be self-critical. It was a community in the true sense.
Isn't that exactly what flickr wants to be?
Yes, an admin took the bait from a 1st class troll, but it would have taken the same or less effort to squelch that conversation as it did to steal our community...our home.
Posted 32 months ago.
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thank you, just because I never posted doesn't mean I wasn't there.... I saw and experienced what that group is. You just don't understand because you seemed to be one of the ones who was in the little TH clic. So maybe you should not speak of things you don't understand.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Yes, it was an interesting clique.
Posted 32 months ago.
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heather can flickr simply just remove that admins, or is there a way i or others who admins a group could ?
Posted 32 months ago.
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please forgive this response but
also can i please ask that those who troll these threads and you know who you are... . simply allow heather and flickr staff to answear, these question,, i have personaly have no no need for responses other than those who really are informed,,, thanks in advance also do not take this thanks : )
Posted 32 months ago.
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Anthony Posey SIR:Poseyal Desposyni edited this topic 32 months ago.
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i saw the entire thread, The Viking James wasn't a troll, I saw ruanniemann egging him on constantly, in fact he started a thread about how he was going to do exactly what Thomas did, if anyone is to blame its him. thevikingjames just beat you at your own game, get over it, stop whining !
Posted 32 months ago.
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I agree with Shims. I think the admin and other folks who actually violated the TOS should have had their accounts deleted. It's a bit shocking how often some individuals can violate Flickr's rules, yet skirt the punishment that most other users face.
Posted 32 months ago.
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This is the first time I have heard of a whole group being deleted in the 4 years I've been using flickr and running a group myself. I must admit this does worry me.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Spending a few days in a town doesn't mean you're part of a community...doesn't mean you know about the town.
In truth, I had very little interaction with Thomas Hawk. I recently had a heated discussion wherein I questioned his journalistic integrity. I was part of his clique? Hardly.
I made more friends who were willing to do for me and for whom I would have done things than anywhere else on flickr.
You looked at it as a place for one man to have a soapbox, but there were 3500 members who simply liked a place where they could speak there minds on a variet of topics while considering photographs.
You have no idea of what you speak.
Posted 32 months ago.
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JFC it was a group! It got out of hand. Someone build a bridge already so these people can cross this river of tears and get over it.
Posted 32 months ago.
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I don't think there's enough flickr infrastructure and employees in place to demote the admins or delete their accounts, then ask new members to step up and take over and follow the TOS.
It's not a perfect system by any means, but, you know, its actually incumbent on all flickr users to know wtf the TOS are. Anyone who was actually SURPRISED by that group deletion is ignorant, simple as that. Does it suck they lost all their scribblings? Yes, it sucks. Should they have known it was bound to happen considering the statements of the admins regarding a completely unmoderated environment? Yes, they should have.
I empathize, but they should have known what the stakes were beforehand.
Reposted from here: www.flickr.com/groups/d_m_u/discuss/72157622446870849/page3/
Posted 32 months ago.
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I think the Viking IS a troll.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Ran_d
I've heard of a few group deletions in the 5 or so years I've been a flickr member, and it's always been due to TOS violations on the part of the Admins.
Posted 32 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 32 months ago.
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well to digress PINE RIDGE PHOTOS CLUB no one with your name was a memberm now you may have been a troll or even TVJ or who knows, please allow FLICKR staff to answear these questions also other plese just ignore those who wish only for drama
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Hi posey. :-)
How ya been mate? I've been enjoying your recent B&Ws.
Posted 32 months ago.
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"Don’t vent your frustrations, rant, or bore the brains out of other members.
Flickr is not a venue for you to harass, abuse, impersonate, or intimidate others. If we receive a valid complaint about your conduct, we’ll send you a warning or terminate your account. "
www.flickr.com/guidelines.gne
Posted 32 months ago.
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case in point mr Leesure
friendfeed.com/dmu
Thomas is already taking to the street to announce that Heather put up a tweet announcing " i hate your freedom " and he goes on to say "within minutes of nuking the group. He is an over dramatic windbag, who just needs to get over himself. Much like the rest of you, including yourself
Posted 32 months ago.
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So?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Why do you care?
Posted 32 months ago.
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SeraphimC: but that wouldn't be Flickr's problem, making sure a rudderless group find new leadership. If they're going strictly by TOS violations, especially serious ones like harrassment and threats, then they should focus on those users committing the acts, and not the stage they chose to perform on.
So if stuff was happening in a group that so violated the terms that the group could be deleted, it's kind of shocking to me that the actual perpetrators were essentially left alone, with no direct consequences for their actions.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Oh Roadside, that means alot coming from someone whos photos share a strking resemblance to Thomas Cock's. Some might even say there is no difference...
Posted 32 months ago.
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Funny...we've interacted exactly this once and you're already calling me names.
Speaks volumes.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Let us recap...
The Flickr Staff are un happy with one persons postings to a group. They delete the group, alienating hundreds of paying customers, all while the person making the offending posts still has their account.
Does that make good business sense? I don't think so.
Posted 32 months ago.
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adameros edited this topic 32 months ago.
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Searcher: Once all the admins are kicked or deleted, how do you get new ones?
Posted 32 months ago.
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TVJ...why don't you threaten to visit your wrath upon someone's family here...maybe they'll nuke the whole Help Forum.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Oh, I think the oldest member gets auto-promoted. That could work.
Posted 32 months ago.
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just because I don't contribute to your precious little group doesn't mean I haven't read your threads.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Perhaps its time Flickr dealt with the source of this issue from the get go. Plenty of fuel right here in its very own Help thread.
Posted 32 months ago.
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death death , murder murder, family family ......happy now ?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Searcher: I guess if the admins of a group are not running their group correctly, they lose their group -meaning the group is deleted when it comes to flickr's SOP.
If they aren't managing their stream or actions -as a member of another group or on someone else's stream- they get their account deleted.
That's the logic of it as I see it.
Posted 32 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 32 months ago.
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An aside: Searcher, have you read Bulgakov's vignette, Heart of a Dog? Your icon reminded me of it.
Posted 32 months ago.
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SeraphimC: Yeah if there are any moderators I think it goes to them, then to the oldest member. But I doubt it would be ALL of the admins in this case. Just the one joining in the harassing threat talk.
[edit: no, haven't read it.]
[edit edit: You're right, there is a certain logic to the responsibility of admins to keep their group following the rules, or else risk losing the group. It's a shame the users didn't realize the experiment they were signing up for.]
Posted 32 months ago.
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The Searcher Nope its the oldest member the moderators are bypassed, which is why so many groups fall when the sole admin is deleted, as the oldest member frequently is no longer active.
Posted 32 months ago.
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@Pine Ridge: No pics, no profile, no groups, one contact. Hmmmm....whose troll are you?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Heather made it clear this was the last straw in a series of issues regarding the completely unmoderated environment of DMUtoo. That being the case, the ADMINS are culpable, not just one. As I read, personal info was being posted by member(s), the admins and mods weren't removing it, then one of the admins actually posted one of the member's personal info, and... we all know the rest. Point being, it was ultimately the complete lack of moderating on the part of the admins of the group that led to its demise, not just the TOS-violating postings of one admin.
Posted 32 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 32 months ago.
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No, admin status skips over moderators.
If the sole admin is removed from a group, Flickr software automatically promotes the "oldest" member to admin status. Oldest in this case means the person who has been a member the longest.
It is a software feature, not a decision by staff. As long as an admin has a Flickr account, they remain as admin. If their account is deleted, they are removed as admin. If there are no other admins for the group, the oldest member is promoted.
Which in many cases destroys the group because the moderators cannot do anything to influence who is promoted and the person promoted might be someone who hasn't logged in to Flickr for years. Even in that case, Flickr staff will not intervene.
Posted 32 months ago.
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I guess Im yours now
Posted 32 months ago.
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leesure
By being a member of a group you are entering into a clubhouse, if the clubhouse owner (admin) doesn't abide by the city ordinances the clubhouse gets shutdown. Chose your clubhouse wisely.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Colleen: When the only admin of a group dies, and the family doesn't do anything about the Flikr account, is the deceased the admin forever?
Posted 32 months ago.
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well said
Posted 32 months ago.
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Walwyn: A City normally gives warnings, fines, and citations long before shutting the place down.
They don't torch the place without reasonable warning.
How many prior infractions has the Flickr Staff warned the DMU2 admins about?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Carrying on the analogy, if a club member misbehaves, the police arrest the member, they don't burn down the clubhouse.
I looked around flickr for 3 years, and feel I chose wisely based on the interactions and friendships formed with other members. Now the record of all those interactions are gone.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Roadsidepictures
Yes, under the current set up Flickr has a policy that they CAN delete an account for inactivity, but so far have not done so.
That has resulted in some groups coming to the help forum asking for assistance, but so far we've not seen a resolution. Usual advice is to ask the estate administrator to request access to the account from Yahoo! so they can make necessary adjustments.
Posted 32 months ago.
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adam-
They have a long history of interactions regarding TOS with flickr staff, two of them in specific, and one regarding how he has acted in prior groups.
The third and forth admins were privy to much of the other two's interactions with flickr staff at the time and were well aware of the consequences -or should have been.
Posted 32 months ago.
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'SeraphimC edited this topic 32 months ago.
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SeraphimC: yes, that makes sense. I guess I just still don't get the disconnect that if there was behavior that violated the TOS enough to warrant group deletion, then why didn't it also warrant account deletion for those taking part?
It still seems like some people got off easy, compared to how often comparable behavior leads to account deletion.
Posted 32 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 32 months ago.
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Coleen: Thanks!
Posted 32 months ago.
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Leesure : "Now the record of all those interactions are gone. "
someone call the Whaaambulance .....
Posted 32 months ago.
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Heather, specifics may help?
Your tweet from the same time really didn't help things.
Posted 32 months ago.
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The group is gone, and the member making death threats still has his account.
That is an important distinction to make, in that if the Flickr Staff wanted to actually stop the abuse, they would have gone after the member causing the problem.
But the user still has his account and can post threats at will still. What is Flickr's liability if this user follows through on a threat and it comes out they destroyed a community of over 3,000 members, but gave the offender a pass?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Searcher- It's a valid question, but I personally can say I'd rather not see the DMUtoo admins' streams disappear. Mercy, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven and all that tempering of justice yadaya.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Adam, has proof been brought to the table, as it had been with the DMUtoo admin's actions and lack thereof?
Posted 32 months ago.
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well Adermos, I think you just figured out why they deleted the group. Liability....
Thats the question you need to keep asking yourself, what if I had actually followed through with those threats ? Did you ever stop to think about that, while needlessly inflaming the situation, now you are clueless as to why they deleted the entire group ? Good God man, wake up ..
Posted 32 months ago.
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Proof would be provided, but a) the group was nuked, and b) proviing proof would be "pointing fingers" which is distinctly against the rules here.
Posted 32 months ago.
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I meant through the proper channels, and in the form of screenshots. Having dealt with this very disturbing sort of thing, and worse, in the past on flickr, I now know it's imperative to take screenshots and to send them to the proper flickr department.
Posted 32 months ago.
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There you go Caleb, the guilty party has fessed up to making threats with out me (or anyone else) "pointing fingers."
So, James, does the group being gone stop you from making threats? Or can you just go to another group or fmail and continue?
While we, the members of DMU2, have lost all our discussions in the forum.
As the community is dead and the person causing the problem can still post freely to Flickr, what has been solved?
Posted 32 months ago.
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amazing that you think I alone was causing the problems, the problem wasn't me, it was the group, are you thick or something ?
Posted 32 months ago.
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Was the group making death threats?
Posted 32 months ago.
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I just want to know what I did to deserve my discussions being deleted....
Posted 32 months ago.
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adameros: seemed to me that there were "persons" doing the threat-flinging, both on and off of Flickr. Maybe not life-injuring stuff, but certainly TOS-breaking stuff. Perhaps that was the trade-off: neither party gets deleted, or both parties do.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Even so, adam, the threats kinda need to be seen. I mean, I can walk into a police station and declare I clubbed someone, but they won't just lock me away without an investigation.
Posted 32 months ago.
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You did nothing to deserve having your discussions deleted, Sandelion.
Posted 32 months ago.
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DAH !
Posted 32 months ago.
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Long before this became a huge mess, I notified flickr of the threats being made. The response was: "Aside from The Forum, groups are administered by their administrators. If you have any concerns regarding activity within a group, please contact the admin."
What I don't understand is why flickr refused to take action when it was just one person making threats. Don't I pay flickr to remove those who break the TOS? Last time I checked, the admins were not paid by Y! to control the members. I don't pay flickr to destroy my information.
Posted 32 months ago.
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the problem wasn't me, it was the group,
Nope. not one bit correct. You were and are the core of the problem that led to this.
Repeated allusions to having people killed or to stalking and considering mugging people should not be tolerated, yet here we are.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Sande-
No, you do not pay flickr to moderate all the forums on their site. You pay flickr for better service for storing photos and to get rid of annoying ads.
Flickr states that admins are to abide by the TOU in managing their groups. If they don't, then one or more of several actions can be taken, including, as we've seen, the deletion of a group. Again, this is by no means unique to DMUtoo.
Posted 32 months ago.
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oh and I suppose none of you played a part in bringing it to this point ?
Adermos, again with this death threat BS ? Really do you think I would be stupid enough to actually kill someone over an internet argument ? You are in a dream land, you never could produce one comment from me that reflected a death threat, threats of violence yes.... death threats ? Now you are just being dramatic....
Posted 32 months ago.
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sandelion: you didn't do anything. But as others have rather eloquently stated here and elsewhere, you joined a group that by its nature was riding the razor's edge of Flickr/Yahoo terms of use. Maybe they should have made that risk more clear to the members. Because there was plenty going on in there that didn't deserve to go "poof" at all.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Whaaaaaa !!!! I want my dmu !!!!
Posted 32 months ago.
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I think you're half right, leesure, if the allegations against this fellow are true.
The other half is the complete lack of moderation of the group by the admins. They could have reported him, they could have kicked or banned him, they could have taken screenshots to show the flickr staff, they could have locked the offending threads down and reported them, etc.
A group's direction and content are to be within the guidelines set forth by Flickr and maintained by the admins.
Posted 32 months ago.
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It got nuked righti in the middle of a post. That was weird. I guess I missed the soap opera.
Posted 32 months ago.
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You people are like the infant who get burned by the stove. Mom told you a hundred times you were going to get burned, but you didn't listen did you ?
Posted 32 months ago.
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adameros The group is gone, and the member making death threats still has his account.
Hey I thought you wanted uncensored? Over on uncensored USENET death threats are common parlance, so for that matter is posting someones personal details. You can even post pics in the binary groups, and have flame wars too.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Caleb, how many witnesses do you need? There were overt and implied threats against flickr members and their families as well as statements that he had stalked and considered mugging TH...the latter comments included specific times and places where the stalking occured.
Posted 32 months ago.
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yep leesure, keep wielding what minute little power you have. You are jsut as clueless as your were yesterday, and will be tomorrow...
Posted 32 months ago.
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leesure: I thought it was supposed to be an "uncensored" group. Seems odd to now want to out or target someone for enjoying that freedom.
Posted 32 months ago.
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exactly right....
Posted 32 months ago.
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It's not witnesses you need, it's actual proof. You really do need the screenshots, and if what you say is true, I hope someone has them. I'd rather not have someone issuing death threats traipsing about flickr unimpeded.
Posted 32 months ago.
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I couldn't have said it better myself....
Posted 32 months ago.
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flickr was notified. they can read about it here. They can observe the behavior here. Yet it's the group that's gone, while the Viking remains.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Seraphim, you have nothing to worry about. They don't have the proof, and they know it, like Heather said, they are just looking for someone to point the finger at. I'm happy to oblige...
Posted 32 months ago.
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Caleb, James admitted to making the threats in this very thread:
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/109191/702221/
And, he is still here posting, while I can not post to the DMU2. And in response, Heather has advised, in her role as a Flickr admin that paying customers that did not break the rules should leave Flickr for greener pastures:
Luckily, the internet is a lovely big backyard and it's likely that there's some other playground that might welcome such a chaos engine.
Frankly, if cutting hundreds of users off from a community they love rather than dealing with a user making threats seems like good business sense... I don't think I even need to finish that.
Flickrs enforcement system is obviously broken if destroying a community full of people not breaking the rules while letting the person who was breaking the rules get off scot-free is the choice the Flickr Staff wants to make.
Posted 32 months ago.
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adameros edited this topic 32 months ago.
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And still they wonder...
Posted 32 months ago.
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Caleb, when you go to court, in the absence of or in addition to physical evidence you have eyewtiness accounts. Flickr destroyed the physical evidence, we are left with witness accounts. Had we known the group deletion was coming, then perhaps we could have taken screenshots. I came home from a nice day out to find this bs, fait acomplis
Posted 32 months ago.
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From past experience in dealing with flickr, they really need to see it for themselves. Lynch mobs have been formed before, you know.
Posted 32 months ago.
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Ѕhims 
Roadsidepictures 
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