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(i agree with everything said in this thread)
:-)
Posted 50 months ago.
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tmeyer edited this topic 50 months ago.
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Hm... I wonder if that will allow for a quick download of my pics in an emergency, such as a head crash.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Yes, it does look like it's primary sales pitch is that you can download large batches of group or other photos.
It's only secondarily being sold as an uploader.
You may want to also bring this up in the group Photographer's Rights
Posted 50 months ago.
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and it is probably the reason some users are seeing a big spike in views
Posted 50 months ago.
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I ran a test on the application and the developer is in breech of flickr's API Terms of Service as it is ignoring user's settings. I was able to download the original sizes of a number of images of users who had all downloading restricted in their account settings.
Not good. Flickr need to pull the API from this developer.
Here's the link to one of the images that I was able to poach in the large version.
Grand Tetons No 38
As you will see, the photographer, Adolfo Isassi, has all downloading, blogging and other privileges blocked, yet flishr enabled me to download the large size image - a blatant breech of the API TOS and flickr's API team need to act.
Adolfo is one of my contacts so I will alert him to what this application can do, I'm sure he will be worried as he is very protective of his work.
Posted 50 months ago.
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...Steve edited this topic 50 months ago.
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Has anyone reported this as 'abuse'?
Posted 50 months ago.
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But it is so useful!
I can use it to download large batches of my own files in an emergency. At the moment, Flickr does not have an official application for that.
Just because a certain application can be potentially be used for copyright infringement, it does not mean that it should be shot down.
Posted 50 months ago.
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"I can use it to download large batches of my own files in an emergency.".
You shouldn't need to. No-one should - everyone should have back-ups on both their hard-drive, and CD / DVD.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Jayel, an app that allows you to bulk download your own images at all sizes is a great idea, but not one that allows you to download other users' images at all sizes, regardless of their account settings. That just makes a nonsense of flickr account settings.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Just because a certain application can be potentially be used for copyright infringement, it does not mean that it should be shot down.
Is this anything like Uranium enrichment in Iran?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Exactly.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Even if downloading is disallowed, it is still very easy to access the large size: you don't need an app for that (just add the _b in the filename).
farm3.static.flickr.com/2333/2051883928_f32e139802_b.jpg
If you don't want the large size to be available, upload a medium only.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Even if your house is locked, it is still very easy to access your valuables: you don't need a key for that (just throw a brick through the window).
Being able to find a way to get to something does not mean it is right or legal to do so. Which is what this thread is about.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Dear Friends
My name is Alireza Kashian and I am project manager for Flishr. My friends asked me to check the discussion here and I realized that we really need to clarify some points here before the dialog would be taken into nowhere land.
I hope the leader of this discussion had dropped us an email and had invited us earlier to be a part of this dialog before starting to throw any stone at Flishr. Even the court will let both sides to speak...
I do appreciate and respect all worries that photographers, copyright holders and Flicker users may have.... So, first of all, this is our position regarding Copyright!
I am not sure if you had a chance to google some terms like "download photos from Flickr" or "upload photo to Flickr"...if you do, you may easily find out that hundreds of applications (windows and Mac) are developed based on Flickr API to do these tasks for you...I myself know at least 35 applications which are used to batch download photos (automatic or manual) from Flickr !! all are working fine and some are more than 2 years old and still working with more than 50,000 users in the world! some are commercial and some are trial or Free...
According to Terms and Conditions of Flickr, Flickr is not the owner of photos..Flickr is just the station and server ...in this case, if you download photos from other flickr's accounts and use them commercially, you yourself have breached the copyright..Even for some photos, you are not allowed to have them in your hard disk but you can only view them on the net!! this is what you see in Flickr terms.
As all developers know (software techies), Flickr doesn't allow anyone to have access to Private photos of other users...in both conditions: Flickr Website or 3rd Party applications...in this case, you see that Flickr itself has restricted the access to private photos ... Flickr API has so many features which you as a developer can invoke those functionalities based on your needs...for example you can search for photos of others and view 1000 results in one pages..so you can search faster and browse mroe photos , comparing to what you get in Flickr website...our eyes can move very fast!!!
In flickr website, you can click on my account, check all my photos, click on All Sizes, and then if you see that Original size is there, you can click and download it ! have you see it yourself? you can try now..so Flickr allows you to browse, move, click and even download one photo to your hard disk ! but Flickr doesn't encourage you to do this (I mean fetching)..this is your sole responsibility if you breach the copyright ..for example you can download it and put it in another website or sell it a few bucks!..
As you see, Flishr and hundreds of other applications are just a simple tool!...they just allow you to do what you can do in Flickr, in much efficient way...This is actually Flickr purpose to release API..because they want to see more fresh ideas and more features available to their users..
You can buy a knife from a store! you may use it to cut a cake , but you can even use it to kill someone !! you can buy a gun, and you can buy a car....you can always use them to breach the law !! so according to the voices that I hear here, We have to shut down Car Factories, Knife Shops and even Gun seller stores !!...
We provide Flishr as a tool...it all depends on the users if they want to use something legally or illegally!! INTERNET itself could be used for legal purposes or illegal purposes !! do you agree on that?
Let me share something with you..if you go to our website, you see that we have introduced all our team members, our contact infos and etc...if we wanted to make something fake and lousy, we wouldn't invest all our credits on such a simple tool for Flickr.. All guys in Flishr team have or study toward Phd in computer related area...We just worked on Flishr, because we liked Flickr and we thought how we can make it enjoyable for all users around the world to use Flickr in easier ways!..we didn't have that much promotion as Flishr is self- funded..it is all our time you see in flishr..
We have also launched another product and that is PicArtia..you can use it to Create a photo mosaic online... You can check our team there as well... it is located at www.picartia.com .. So we are not underground..we are on the ground!
As the last word, I want to share our experience with Flickr API. As you know, each API may have some bugs inside it...for example, flickr API doesn't allow anyone to search or download private photos from Flickr...but when we were developing Flishr, we understood that Flickr API has some bugs..in very special conditions, we could search for private photos !! this was also amazing for us, but we understood that Flickr team is also working to improve the API...but for Flishr, we did our best, to block Private photos to be shown in Flishr...And for Original size download case : Based on users' settings, if you set your photo not be accessible in original format and size ( i mean in your flickr settings), no one should be able to get access to it...We have tested flishr to see if it can have access to original sizes and in many cases, it fails and doesn't have such permission..The permissions are set by Flickr API...again I say, Flickr has some bugs and it is out of our control...The original size for some photos is restricted in Flickr Web site, but when we call the photo from API, the flickr returns the photo to Client !! this is not something that we can detect and avoid it...Flishr is just a software. it is not that much intelligent....we don't know for what reason, Flickr does return results for some restricted photos! I do believe Flickr must work on it .. If you know the way that we can detect the restricted size, please let us know...it is a little work for us to fix Flishr to reflect this feature...
I do also thank to Jayel Aheram for clarifying some points before I get notified about such discussion here in Flickr.
I do post this Reply in another group which Ms Kelly Cheng has already started the thread!
If you think you need to talk to me directly, you can Try yahoo messenger.. my ID is a_kashian...you can also drop me email at alireza.kashian@gmail.com .. you can even Google Talk..my id is same as my email in gmail... We do live in Singapore.
Regards,
Alireza Kashian
Posted 50 months ago.
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If you are using the Flickr API you must comply with the owner's wishes about copyright.
You may not display an ARR photo using your application unless you have previously gotten approval from the copyright owner.
It is not up to the Flickr account holder to make sure, it is up to you. You may not create a tool that you cannot control.
Posted 50 months ago.
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So if I set everything in my account up properly to prevent people from stealing my photos it's still easy for some slimeball Singapore company to throw up an app that can swipe them using Flickr's own API?
Exactly when will THIS be fixed, Flickr? Or will we get another series of 'new features' nobody asked for instead of fixing this?
Posted 50 months ago.
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From the Flickr API TOS
Flickr APIs Terms of Use
Thank you for using the Flickr application programming interfaces (the "Flickr APIs"). By using the Flickr APIs, you agree to the terms below.
1. Licensed Uses and Restrictions.
a. You shall:
ii. Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners.
Posted 50 months ago.
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some slimeball Singapore company to throw up an app that can swipe them using Flickr's own API?
Actually some slimeballs from the USA scrapped every image from bioimages day after day after day, exceeding the sites bandwidth allowances, and effectively closing it down for months, whilst the site was re-engineered. There was no API involved in that grand theft at all.
Posted 50 months ago.
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It's one thing when it's done that way. It's another entirely when Flickr says "Here are the keys to the house. Please don't steal anything while we're away."
Posted 50 months ago.
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I don't really understand what Greg The Bunny says...
If I can go to Flickr.com , come to your Photo Page, click on all sizes, and then download your photos, Will you claim that Flickr is abusing my photos!
Whatever you can do when you browse Flickr.com , you can do also in Flishr!!! nothing more..if you keep your photos Private, no one, even Flishr has access to it..if you set Permissions for Originals, no one even Flishr has access to it.... so if users can goto Flickr.com/photos/Greg and see all your photos and download them, they can also do the same in Flishr !! nothing very strange and complex !!! it is easy to realize!!!
But if you see that for any any reason, you can't access an original file size in Flickr but you can access it in Flishr, this is a BUG in flickr API... we don't have any ATTRIBUTE which tells us you can't download it and then we tell the user that you can't download it...there is nothing like that...if the PHOTO is open to all, Flickr gives is to us...if it is closes to all, flickr doesn't give it to us !!! I think if anyone here is posting any comment, he/she must prove technically that how we can override the bugs in Flickr APIs....don't throw some words which are not technologically sensible... I wish if you say something technical here, you have the knowledge...if you have, drop me email and tell me how you avoid it in your own developments.. we will be happy to learn it from you.....in next word...do respect when you talk...don't use angry words....we don't drop any words which comes to our minds in 1 second...we think and we respect to all people who are reading the discussion...Keep it clean and logical.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina wrote But if you see that for any any reason, you can't access an original file size in Flickr but you can access it in Flishr, this is a BUG in flickr API... we don't have any ATTRIBUTE which tells us you can't download it and then we tell the user that you can't download it...there is nothing like that...
You might want to drop by the API Developers' forum, because I'm about 99.5% sure that we've seen discussions in the Help Forum at the end of which API developers were able to do exactly that: respect a Flickr members' access permissions in their application.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina
Let me repeat:
There is no need for me to make my photos private.
It is your responsibility to not show ARR images without the owner's permission.
You agreed to this when you got your API key.
Posted 50 months ago.
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"If I can go to Flickr.com , come to your Photo Page, click on all sizes, and then download your photos, Will you claim that Flickr is abusing my photos!" Yeah, but I have my account set you that you CAN'T do that. If your software is ignoring that, it's YOUR problem to rectify because if my photos start showing up without my permission it will be YOU that I come after legally.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Is anyone else sick to death of developers telling us that it's our fault that the application they created is displaying images it has no right to display?
Clearly, they just don't learn - every single one who has tried this argument has lost.
It's very simple, Alireza - write a few more lines of code that tell your application NOT to display ARR images. It can be done. Do it.
Don't try and lawyer your way around it - regardless of the API settings, I DO NOT give your site permission to display my ARR images. That is my right. You have no rights over my images.
I give Flickr the right to display my ARR images. I DO NOT give Flishr the right to do so. Clear enough?
You have two choices: resolve this matter to the satisfaction of all concerned, or have your API key revoked.
Which will you choose?
Posted 50 months ago.
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I came across a Flickr member yesterday who had 17,500 favorites but no photos of his own. Evidently he will have 17,500 of someone elses photos cached on his computer for some reason. I blocked him to remove my photos from his favorites but, if he wanted them, he would already have them somewhere. The only way of aviding that altogether is to not have your photos in cyberspace.
Whenever we view a photo we have downloaded it to our computer. Downloading Flickr photos happens all the time.
But I agree, if Flishr is bypassing privacy settings then that seems simlar to hacking into someone's account, a very dubious activity!!
Posted 50 months ago.
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I'm not a big fan of this type of application either, but can anyone explain how this app is any different than Flickr Down or FlickrEdit? And if it does the same thing as those apps, why are we recommending Flickr Down and FlickrEdit to everyone that asks how to batch download?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Do Flickr ever get involved in this sort of conversation anymore?
Posted 50 months ago.
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No, they said they would with Darckr and they never did. If they show up here, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Regardless, how does this do anything that Flickr Down doesn't do?
Posted 50 months ago.
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FlickrDown is there for like 18 months or more...
Downloadr is there for a long time.
and many other batch downloaders.... All are doing same ! all will let you do what Flickr lets you do, what Flishr lets you do, and what hundreds of other applications let you do......
Posted 50 months ago.
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Have you ever been stopped for speeding? Did you try to persuade the officer that it was OK because you know plenty of other people who have exceeded the speed limit?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these tools allowing batch downloads of other people's stuff -- not unless they return the author and copyright information along with the image, so that one knows what one is downloading.
But everyone on the Forum is so giddy about Flickr Down, they have no hesitation in recommending it, despite that it, too, allows downloading of up to the large size of any public photo on Flickr regardless of a user's download settings... and it doesn't tell you what the copyright or license on any of the photos is, either.
So, Rojina, I'm not saying that just because everyone else is doing it, it's OK... I'm asking the Help community why the outcry over your app but not over Flickr Down?
Anyone?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Somewhat recent thread on FlickrDown here: www.flickr.com/help/forum/64600/
(It will, I gather -- haven't used it myself -- access other people's large-sized images but not their original sized images)
Posted 50 months ago.
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Do Flickr ever get involved in this sort of conversation anymore?
Apparently not, but they're probably reading it whilst having their lattes & donuts.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Steph, Flickr Down does access other people's large sizes. That's a good thread you linked because I raised the question as to whether FD was OK or not, and you'll notice the response that I received: Flickr Down is just a tool, it's OK, it does nothing that you can't do yourself by manipulating a character in the URL, it's up to the user to use the tool properly.
So, why is Flisher, which does *exactly* the same thing, being trashed while Flickr Down gets a pass?
I'm going to download and install Flishr now so that I can see for myself if it is returning the originals or not. But even if it is (Flickr Down does not) -- the concept is still the same. If I have downloads restricted, but one can use Flickr Down or Flishr to download my files, why is Flickr Down OK and Flishr NOT OK?
Posted 50 months ago.
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zyrcster
I think the issue is coming to light more frequently because people are more aware of it, and are more likely to be concerned because they are aware.
Just because people were blissfully ignorant of the capabilities for mischief of the other downloaders does not give them or any new apps a free pass.
I suspect it is a culture-change issue on Flickr. As more and more people become aware of the 'Flickr photos are public and that means they are in the public domain" mind set, there are both more infractions and more outrage over those infractions.
The tools that make those infractions easier are coming under closer scrutiny.
The exponential growth of Flickr in the past couple years has changed it from a closely knit village into a bedroom suburb. The villagers hold the founder's view that Flickr is for sharing. The new residents have a more jaundiced view of internet sharing.
So, as new apps are developed, their developers are being asked more pointedly to comply with the API Terms of Use.
Not saying that this is good or bad. Just pointing out that the community has grown, changed, and is now expressing a different set of concerns than the original settlers had.
Posted 50 months ago.
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To Greg The Bunny
Can you tell me what attribute in your photo, when I use flickr.photos.search() method in API tells me that I can't access your photo? Flishr does not ignore anything.. We don't get any information about each single photo when we search..When we search, flickr just replies with an array of photos related to my search Keyword... in next step, you can set in Flishr that I don't want those photos that have this license attribution xxxxx.....when you say that, Flishr can again send queries to Flickr and get the attributes for each photo and finally filter the list for you...but what if someone wants to search for those photos which have specific attribute, then he/she must be able to find them... If your photos are that much important to you that you think no application (flishr and etc...) shouldn't be able or allowed to get access to them, you can make them private..because when you put them as public and then assign a license or copyright attribute to it, this is sole responsibility of each user to obey it..because users can come easily to your page, view it, download it and do whatever they want..there is no difference if the Gateway and interface is Flickr, Flishr, Downloadr, Flickrdown, Zoomr...or .........
Posted 50 months ago.
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"If your photos are that much important to you that you think no application (flishr and etc...) shouldn't be able or allowed to get access to them, you can make them private..because when you put them as public and then assign a license or copyright attribute to it, this is sole responsibility of each user to obey it."
That is a total load of crap. It's YOUR responsibility to respect my ARR or face the legal consequences.
Maybe you should spend some time actually READING about copyright law instead of trying to tell the photographers that WE'RE wrong for having our photos visible.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina
Except that you are using a Flickr-issued API key, and you are breaking the rules.
It is not a defense to point out other people who are breaking the speed limit. You still have to obey the law, no matter how many other people don't.
Posted 50 months ago.
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ColleenM has already made it as clear as it needs to be. The API terms of use say that any restrictions placed on photos by the photo owner (eg limiting the viewable size) have to be honoured by the API developer, else they are in violation of said terms.
It's not about what information the API does or does not give you.
It's now up to flickr as to whether they enforce their own terms.
I have never looked at Darckr but if it too ignores the restrictions put in place by the individual photographer, then it too violates the terms.
Posted 50 months ago.
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So they violate the terms. Who at Flickr is going to put down the video camera long enough to actually DEAL with this issue?
Why does every issue on this site feel like in order to get it resolved I have to contact ADULT leadership that doesn't exist?
Posted 50 months ago.
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The developer of Darkr was able to make his application completely compliant with the Flickr TOS. Yay for Laurent
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/67860/
Don't see why other folks can't do the same.
Posted 50 months ago.
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ColleenM edited this topic 50 months ago.
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Flickr will act in their own good time. Because. In the terms of use that you and I subscribe to by putting our photos here, it says that we cannot hold flickr responsible for the API violations by 3rd parties, like we are discussing here. So flickr doesn't have any urgent legal obligation to protect our photos from these copyright shy developers.
If you want to start talking law then you have to bypass flickr and go after the developers directly. However, if there is a surge in bad feeling toward a particular API application then flickr are more likely to take a look and enforce their own terms.
I think what I am trying to say is that complaining to flickr isn't actually fair as they have technically done nothing wrong. But I do agree that they could probably fiddle their API to stop these developers from erroding everybody's copyright.
Posted 50 months ago.
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To Dr. Keats : I give Flickr the right to display my ARR images. I DO NOT give Flishr the right to do so. Clear enough?
Who is Flishr? and Who is Flickr?
Flishr is based on Flickr..What does it mean that I let Flickr to show my photo and I don't let 3rd party application to find my photo!! what does this mean? Are you circulating wrong concepts in this discussion?
Have you realized that all 3rd party tools are babies of Flickr! All are a part of Flickr body...this is grand family of photo applications...Could you please show me a settings in Flickr which lets you Define which application can access my photo and which application can't !! if you have such concerns about who will access your photos, you must keep them in your hard disk because when you reveal them on the web, everyone, even one single 5 year old naughty boy can download your photo, pitch it, save it, change it and print it in thousand copies and you won't find it at all...can you run after some copyright breachers in INDIA? if you can, go and get your photos back from them...so if you have so so so much concern about Resolution X and Resolution Y, I do recommend again, internet is not a the place to put your stuff...Make a private house, invite special friends, and keep them in your hands ....
Flishr is like Flickr...If Flickr shows your photos and lets users to view or download or search them, Flishr does as well.... If TOS says that we as an API holder, shouldn't breach the users' settings, it means even Flickr himself can't breach it...it does not mean that Flickr is allowed to sell your photos but 3rd parties can't !.. TOS mentions that WE, ( I MEAN DEVELOPERS) MUST NOT OVERRIDE THE LICENSES.... Because API is something that we can use it for private research..for Example, if I don't publish Flishr on the web, and then start fetching all your photos and then put a copy of 1,000,000 photos on another website, who knows that I did it through Flishr?!!! this is why Flickr askes API holder not to abuse it...but we didn't abuse it..we brought up a useful application, which everyone in every corner of the world can now use it and enjoy exploring the milions of photos in Flickr...Now if you think this is Flishr which overrides your copyright rules, I am sorry to say you are totally wrong...because there is no CODE, intention, any plan or any Script or hidden procedures in Flishr to override or fetch private or original photos of users....nothing..This is USERS wish to do what with what......This is not Flishr..Flishr is just a few lines of code..it doesn't have any brain to make any decision to do anything for any special group....it is just a code...and hundreds of similar codes are publicly and legaly accessible over the web....
I am sorry to make it long, but I think you are just used to throw Stones...you don't like to understand that WEB is PUBLIC..Everyone ,everywhere in any situation has access to your photos in Flickr and they can do what they think is right or wrong...
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina, regardless of whether you think this is the way things should be, as an API developer you are bound to observe this section of the Terms of Service:
Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners. Remember, Flickr doesn't own the images - Flickr users do. Although the Flickr APIs can be used to provide you with access to Flickr user photos, neither Flickr's provision of the Flickr APIs to you nor your use of the Flickr APIs override the photo owners' requirements and restrictions, which may include "all rights reserved" notices (attached to each photo by default when uploaded to Flickr), Creative Commons licenses or other terms and conditions that may be agreed upon between you and the owners. In ALL cases, you are solely responsible for making use of Flickr photos in compliance with the photo owners' requirements or restrictions.
What Flickr users are asking is that you respect this.
Posted 50 months ago.
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ColleenM wrote I suspect it is a culture-change issue on Flickr. As more and more people become aware of the 'Flickr photos are public and that means they are in the public domain" mind set, there are both more infractions and more outrage over those infractions.
The tools that make those infractions easier are coming under closer scrutiny.
The exponential growth of Flickr in the past couple years has changed it from a closely knit village into a bedroom suburb. The villagers hold the founder's view that Flickr is for sharing. The new residents have a more jaundiced view of internet sharing.
This makes a lot of sense. For those of us who go back a few years here, we knew the people developing the applications (still do sometimes, if they've been around long enough), and that led to some sense of trust. But the sandbox isn't sandbox-sized anymore, and there seem to be many more tools out there, and even those of us who've been around and seen them longer can start to be more cynical and more protective of our work, which seems to spread farther out of our control and faster than it used to.
Posted 50 months ago.
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You are starting to come over as very dim.
>>Everyone ,everywhere in any situation has access to your photos in Flickr and they can do what they think is right or wrong...
That may be a true statement. It is also true that if they choose to do wrong, then they suffer the consequences. This thread here is an open confession by you that you are knowingly breaking the law. That makes you subject to potentially paying out a lot of money in damages. I have seen $100,000 quoted under US law.
Posted 50 months ago.
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It's a very interesting thread and at the end of the the day there are two things that can happen.
1. Flickr will do something and will be looked on as a company that respects the photographers wishes
or
2. They will do nothing (the lack of input from Flickr here IS rather disconcerting to say the least) in which case I shall just go off to another site and Flickr will be poorer as a result.
Of course, I could also foul things up and put a water mark on every photo uploaded. Sure it won't do anything for the photo but at least everyone will know who owns it!
Like most things in life, unless you enforce the rules there isn't much point having them.
Posted 50 months ago.
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ColleenM Colleen, please read the link that Steph posted. That thread is not that old, and the culture surely has not changed that much since that thread was posted and died. It's also not plausible as an argument because since that time, people, including yourself, continue to recommend Flickr Down to batch download images when users ask if such a tool exists.
I'm not arguing that these applications are OK, but I am arguing an inconsistency here.
1. All sizes up to the large size of any public image (or rather, any image that you have permission to view) are accessible right now, without any of these tools, for any user to download. If you can see it in your browser, you can download it. Even on the Download settings page, Flickr states right up front that the setting is only a deterrent to downloading images and that it is still possible to download images on Flickr. This is a Flickr issue (that it's so easy to access up to the large size) that they seem unwilling to change and/or deal with, and plenty of knowledgeable "helpers" here and in Flickr Ideas have shot down ideas to change this issue.
2. Flickr Down, Flishr, et al, are merely tools. Flishr's license, which a user agrees to on installation of the app, even states that the user is responsible for how they use anything that is downloaded.
3. These tools do not re-publish or display any content anywhere other than the user's computer. If the user then uses these images against the license, it's on that user to use them in compliance with the license or to seek permission to use the images if there is no license. Every "helper" on the Forum repeats this mantra time and again to developers.
4. Flishr and Flickr Down are not compliant with the API ToU? I'm not so sure about that based on reading the ToU. It states that the application must use images in compliance with any copyright or license. But the API app itself (Flishr) does nothing without user input. Is downloading an image a violation of copyright ot is *using* the image a violation of copyright?
Again, please read the thread linked above. Here it is again:
www.flickr.com/help/forum/64600/
Read Brenda's and The Searcher's arguments. The thread only closed 3 months ago.
So, again, why are we recommending Flickr Down, how is it that Flickr Down gets a pass, and why are the arguments in favor of Flickr Down not applicable to Flishr?
As for Darckr: Darckr was displaying (publishing) images. This app (and Flickr Down) are downloading images. Is there not a difference between the two? If not, hey I'll be the first one to jump and down and ask for both applications' keys to be revoked. But there is an inconsistency here that I believe should be addressed. As long as Flickr itself allows downloading of all images up to the large size, I don't see why this tool, Flickr Down, or the API itself should be penalized for allowing up to the large size to be downloaded.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Mr smarty pants says:
"Now if you think this is Flishr which overrides your copyright rules, I am sorry to say you are totally wrong..."
Actually no, we are not. As soon as you put my image on another computer you ARE violating copyright.
But regardless of that you made a contract with Flickr when you got your API key. You are violating that contract because you agreed that no matter what I ask you to do (don't take my bw photos, or photos of Mary), you have to agree to those terms, or not use my photos. No matter how silly my rules are. Because that is what you agreed to do.
Get it?
Posted 50 months ago.
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AustinTX edited this topic 50 months ago.
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At this point I think you should get your API key pulled because you're a condescending #$&*% who obviously just doesn't care that she's violating ARR.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Greg Easton Photography edited this topic 50 months ago.
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Thanks Lu
Note: Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners.
Is Flishr using the photos?
The TOS clearly mentions:
What is photo owners requirements and restrictions?
I mention here:
If my photo is private, it means it is private..no one can access it in any way..Hacking or etc...
if my photo is restricted to Large Size or Medium Size, no one can access the original or large size..
As you see, the owner mentions his own restrictions...and this is recorded in your flickr account settings..
But if you don't say that no one can download my original, what does it mean? I mean you don't do the correct setting...
If you want, I can do a test for you..
I put a photo online, I make the large size restricted,..then you try to download it with Flishr...if you could, please pick up your Phone and call Flickr...because there is something Wrong in Flickr Settings...they don't check all your settings before they response to 3rd party applications...in this case, what Flishr can do? Flishr doesn't really know if your photo is restricted or not..this is Flickr which should say that to us....or this is Flickr which must filter it out in our search...if Flickr doesn't record your settings properly, or if you forget to correct your settings, this is not Flishr fault..this is your fault....Flishr has no no no wish to have your original photos..we don't have that much money to buy hard disks to keep milions of photos because they just like to have them !! sorry to say, but you are mixing it up...Flishr doesn't want to have your photos....!! we are a group of photographers and developers in Flishr...we have our own digital cameras...we are also young and creative..we don't need anyones photos for any purpose..our business is not also photos...so please calm it down.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina
The developer of one of the most popular Flickr apps, Darkr, was able to make his program API compliant.
Surely your group, with its multiple PhDs in computer science and 75+ years of combined education, can do the same.
If, after trying to complete this homework assignment as a team, you are still not able to understand how it is done, then it may be time to ask for help from someone else.
Like the successful developer of a similar application who WAS able to comply.
Posted 50 months ago.
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If your app can't recognize ARR but other third-party apps CAN, then it is YOU who have screwed up the coding and therefore your problem. Not mine. Until I sue you for copyright infringement.
Maybe you should spend more time in the BBW PEE group and less time writing bad apps.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Lú_ : But the sandbox isn't sandbox-sized anymore...
Some of us have already moved to new, smaller sandboxes for this very reason.
Posted 50 months ago.
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whats the point of shooting down one persons app when the hole in the API thats allowing this to happen hasnt been patched up by flickr.
Its not Rojina or Flishrs fault this is an API issue that needs addressing by flickrs api people.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Actually I think zyrcster makes an interesting point. The API terms seem to be geared towards people who use the API to display flickr photos on another domain. It is 'unclear' whether they could be applied to a download tool where the developer isn't actually using any photos him/her self.
Posted 50 months ago.
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zyrcster
I agree there has been inconsistency.
When I recommend a tool to help someone download their own photos, it does not also mean that I'm recommending its use to violate other people's preferences and settings.
The line I'm beginning to understand is the difference between an app that allows ME to download/display my photos, not matter what the restrictions, and allows me to download/display other's photos based on their own restrictions.
Since it is possible to create such an application, I'm trying to move Flickr forward with incremental changes. That means I'm working hard to make sure new applications are written to be in compliance.
It's a different issue to try to get massive backwards compliance. And meanwhile, if those applications are the only ones available to help someone get their own photos, I'll recommend them.
If better (ie compliant) tools become available, I'll recommend those instead.
Posted 50 months ago.
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The Finedon Secret That's part of my point.
Go here:
www.flickr.com/services/api/explore/?method=flickr.photos...
Notice this is a Flickr API page that demonstrates the output of flickr.photos.getSizes.
Now enter a photo ID for some Flickr photo that has downloads restricted. The photo ID will be in the url of the photo page. I'll make life easy on everyone and use one of mine:
www.flickr.com/photos/zyrc/2427917001/
Notice that All Sizes is disabled. I have downloads restricted.
Now, enter the Photo ID into the API explorer linked above. The Photo ID is 2427917001. You don't have to sign the call.
See the html that gets returned? It's every size of that image up to the large size. Now you can copy/paste that into a browser and download that image away to your heart's content, with the Flickr API itself, on Flickr's website despite that I have the download setting restricted.
To be perfectly clear, I do not enjoy that Flickr Down, Flishr, and the API ignore my download settings. I would much prefer it if these apps only pulled the user's images or CC licensed images.
I would also love to hear from Flickr themselves their take on Flickr Down and Flishr.
Posted 50 months ago.
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I would also love to hear from Flickr themselves their take on Flickr Down and Flishr.
Well, I know Heather's around. She just commented on another thread. So she's probably drinking her Starbucks and ignoring problems again.
Posted 50 months ago.
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To Administrator of This Discussion
I realized while other users are logically and clearly sharing their points, Mr Gred The Bunny, repeated tries to insult us and throw some words which clearly avoids us to have fruitful talk here. It is not even hard for us to say something harmful to someone here but we have learned from our experience that we are not such a person...if someone try to curse, he/she is basically destroying his/her own characterestic in front of others.....We must learn how we can talk politely while we share our beliefs in public..... if we can't we must leave and open up the space for others to talk.
Posted 50 months ago.
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And meanwhile, if those applications are the only ones available to help someone get their own photos, I'll recommend them.
Calling for Flishr's API key to be revoked while continuing to recommend Flickr Down for batch downloading just seems odd to me. Both apps do exactly the same thing. So, either shut them both down, or recommend them both.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Yeah, it's MY fault that your app violates the law.
Posted 50 months ago.
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zyrcster
Flishr is still reporting bugs and problems in the API group. I'd rather suggest an app that is functioning well, since most of these requests are from people without a lot of computer experience.
And, I'm not calling for their API to be revoked. I'm trying to pursuade their developers to write code that complies with the API.
One is punative, the other is educational.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Flishr no more violates the law than does a browser. Both require user input in order to download any image to your system.
Since it's possible for a web browser to download ARR content, is it, too, in violation of the law?
I'm playing the devil's advocate here, not trying to be a smart ass. I'd be thrilled for Flickr Down and Flishr to be restricted in what they can pinch from Flickr... but I still think the problem resides in the ability to access the large size of an image regardless of your settings.
Posted 50 months ago.
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ColleenM You're still recommending an application that does exactly what Flishr does. It downloads content even if the author has "restricted" downloads.
I get your point, but I think mine is being lost. If Flishr is mandated to change its application, then Flickr Down should be so mandated, and we should stop recommending it if we really believe that these apps violate the law and copyright and the API ToU.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Yes, it is your fault because you can't keep yourself calm and speak politely...If we are violating any law, we will lean our bugs and fix them....but nothing will be added to your value except a remain of some dusty words from your identity here... We are here to talk not to insult others...
Posted 50 months ago.
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zyrcster You've hit the nail on the head there.
Even if you revoke api keys, point fingers and cry like a baby that someone app is breaking the law. You can still use flickr itself to gain access to larger sizes other peoples photos that they believe to be restricted.
Flickr needs to speak up about this problem, then sort it out sharpish.
Posted 50 months ago.
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If we are violating any law, we will lean our bugs and fix them
That's not what you've said. What you've said is if our images aren't private it's not your problem that your code sucks.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina ".If we are violating any law, we will lean our bugs and fix them...."
Yes, you are violating copyright law.
You might also want to demonstrate to Flickr staff that you are willing to comply with their Terms of Use for your API key. The penalty for that transgression is the pulling of your key.
I'm curious why you only reply to people who are trying to provoke you. So far in this thread you have not addressed a single issue I have raised.
Posted 50 months ago.
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I'm curious why you only reply to people who are trying to provoke you
If anybody ever wonders why I poke the bear...there's your answer.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Hello everybody. I am a member of Flishr team. I just found this huge discussion.
about the first post: stealing people's photos? what does it mean? Flishr is just a tool to help the users work faster and easier with Flickr. and doesn't provide any access more than what Flickr provides.
and to Greg the Bunny: have you used Flishr yourself?
I realy don't understand why you guys are all talking about stealing the photos?
you are not able to download anything with Flishr more than what you can download in Flickr!!!!!!!!
Posted 50 months ago.
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The Finedon Secret Thanks.
A few last points, then out for the day.
Flickr *can* restrict downloading of images ***if they wanted to do so***. They do it right now with video. Despite that this video is licensed CC (which for a photo, overrides the download page and allows photos to be downloaded), it's download link is inaccessible by any of you:
www.flickr.com/video_download.gne?id=2348804170
If they got rid of the url that we all know for the large size of an image, I'm sure they could set up photo retrieval the same as they do for video. Then "no download" would mean exactly that: no download.
Regardless, I hope that those of you who passionately believe in the illegality of Flishr go out and get greggman in here and tell him exactly what is being said to Rojina.
www.greggman.com/pages/flickrdown.htm
I'm sure he's easy to find on Flickr as well.
Good luck, all.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Sona Hassani
I suggest you read every post here that is not by a member of your team very, very carefully.
You NEED to understand what the problem is.
Posted 50 months ago.
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This is not you and me who decides if we are violating the copyright law..Are you FlickrDown user? so you are also breaching the copyright...I heard that you have recommended FlickrDown before, somewhere else, so you must at least respect to your words!! how are you recommending or using some 3rd party tool when now you know it is breaching the law!!..please and please...don't jump here and there..FlickrDown is not the only one..let me list you a few other 3rd parties..they are there more than few months...are you learning about them today??? so let me give you a list...may be you want to ask Flickr to revoke api key to almost 80% of few thousand applications...As all those applications have access to all sizes of your photos and some are caching your photos in their servers, some are publishing in other sites, some will print your photos and you even don't know .... I think if today you are very concern about Flishr, you must be also concern about hundreds of other applications which have been there for 1 or 2 years...!!
Posted 50 months ago.
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Ah, the classic "Everybody else is doing it" defense.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Berating me about the capabilities of other applications does not change the fundamental issue about your application:
You are not in compliance with the Flickr TOS, nor with copyright law.
There are penalties for each of those issues. The only people who will face the penalties is you and your team.
Since it has been demonstrated that applications can be developed that comply with copyright law and the Flickr API TOS, is there some reason that your team is not capable of doing the same?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Thanks for your useful comments that you provide here and there..you still can keep insulting and make fun of us.. that may make it cool for you.....do you know anything about APIs and how you can use them! do you know about many other applications that they do same as Flishr does? I can invite other developers to join this discussion, so they can make it more understandable for those who still don't know why and how an API works...
Posted 50 months ago.
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 "I blocked him to remove my photos from his favorites"
And how many countless others lurk in the shadows?
Posted 50 months ago.
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This is like pissing into the wind. Rojina, you are completely missing the point.
Yes, we all know that the flickr interface is full of holes.
Yes, we know that there are other ways to access all sizes of images other than with flishr.
Yes, we know that people who use the images that they've down loaded with your tool are in breech of copyright.
Yes, we know that there are lots of other API apps that do what yours does.
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
The point you are missing here is simple. The API TOU prohibits you from disregarding the privacy setting of each user's account. Whether or not that is a fault with the flickr API is totally irrelevant. Your tool, and other such tools, are in breech of the flickr API TOU. Why can't you understand that, it's not that difficult.
If Laurant can do it with Darkr then every developer can do it. In another discussion over in Flickrcentral, Striatic has confirmed that his code for Photophlow, after a little bit of extra coding, is compliant.
Why are you being so obtuse about it? It's possible to implement so why don't you implement it?
Posted 50 months ago.
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...Steve edited this topic 50 months ago.
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Rojina's argument is simply that the road is straight and the car is capable of doing 130MPH, so why is it not allowed to drag race here?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Our team can develop whatever is possible....if it is technically possible, then we should be able to do it...Two of my high school friends are also working in Flickr... I will also ask them to check our application and let us know if we must adhere the API leak or Flickr will repair the bug...
If you think we must face penalties, I think you have a long night to stay up and prepare a list of thousands developers which must also receive the penalties... I don't know why you have tried a few times to frighten us from penalties!!... If you are also using FlickrDown to download photos, you must also wait to receive penalties because you didn't have right to promote an application which was breaching the rules according to your say!
Posted 50 months ago.
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If you think we must face penalties, I think you have a long night to stay up and prepare a list of thousands developers which must also receive the penalties
Yeah, no. That's not how it works.
Posted 50 months ago.
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I have never used FlickrDown. I suggest it to people who want a way to batch download their own photos (legal use). Are you implying that I encourage illegal downloads and copyright violations? Perhaps you'd like to find some data to back up that slur.
I don't need to make a list of everyone who is violating the copyright law. I file my claims against one person at a time. There is no requirement that I discover all violations before I make a case against one violator.
Nor is there any requirement that I suss out all violations of Flickr TOS before I can report anyone. Reports are taken one case at a time.
You and your team are one case. There's no reason I can't focus on one case and ignore the other ones. You may not like it, but oh well.
What I am suggesting is that you learn how to solve this problem so that you can create your little masterpiece AND be in compliance with both copyright law and the Flickr TOS.
It's been done. This is not rocket science. I suggest your team spend more time writing code, and less time trying to defend illegal behavior.
Posted 50 months ago.
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>>If you are also using FlickrDown to download photos,
I think you'll find that Colleen and most of the nay sayers here have the good sense to keep copies of their images offline, so do not use Flickrdown. On the help forum, many threads are posted from users who have suddenly realised the folly of trusting their only copy of precious images to an online service and want to download them quickly. As Flickr doesn't have a batch download option, there is certainly a need for a third party tool to provide this function. All we ask is that such a tool respects the copyright of other Flickr members. If you want to download all your own work - no problem. if you want to download images with appropriate CC licenses - no problem. if you want to download other people's ARR images - the tool should not allow it. Even if there is a way to do the same thing in Flickr. You are responsible for making your application compliant. You do not have to fix problems with Flickr. We can give staff a hard time over those :-)
Posted 50 months ago.
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Thanks Steve..You said very good words! I personally agree with your words...The thing is we can add Warning to those photos which have very restricted license...in those cases, we can show up a warning message and tell the user that this is his own responsibility if he/she wants to pass over the license...in this case, this is the user who decides to pick it up...Like what McDonald says : The cup is hot...be careful..so if you drink, it is your fault...
But about Photophlow, please pass me the contact to developers if they are around.. We need to talk to them and see how they fixed this issue..
I am not very sure, but as much as I know, when we search in Flickr through API, the flickr will return an array of all related photos...I mean Photo IDs and Owner ID and URLs to all sizes of photos ...
For example, this is what I receive from Flickr when I use Search API for one of my photos:
2063773093
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395_t.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395_s.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395_m.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395_b.jpg
farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2063773093_d28ae81395_b.jpg
Luxury Black and Orange
23349869@N00
www.flickr.com/photos/23349869@N00/2063773093/
As you see, all URLS are returned by Flickr..
But if I go and disable the Original and Large Size, then even you have the link to my Photo, but this Link doesn't work and you can't download it..if you want, we can test it here..now if you check all URLS, you see even you have access to my original..but later I can disbale the original...again you search and receive the URLs but this time this URL doesn't work and returns NULL .... As I said, we can test it now here..so all depends on me..if I disable Original or Large Size, then no one can use it..
Again as you see in reseult, there is no attribute or any information about licence of this photo..we just have ID and URLs...but there is only one way around..we can again send request to Flickr and ask for license of this photo..this takes like 2-5 seconds based on internet speed.. now assume you search for a photo and we want to show you 500 results, now for each photo, we have to send a request to Flickr to fetch the license...in this case, between 500 seconds (good speeds) to 2500 Seconds (128K or lower speed) is delay for loading ...
The user will be frustrated !!..No one will stay that long time to check all licenses...
If there is any other way around, please let us know..
Posted 50 months ago.
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if it is technically possible, then we should be able to do it.
Wow. And um, no. Just because something is "technically possible" does not make it permissible, legal, ethical, etc. etc.
Posted 50 months ago.
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It really doesn't matter whether your user is frustrated.
That is not a defense for having an application that does not comply with the Flickr API TOS.
And offering to add a warning is a lazy way of getting around creating legitimate code in the first place.
Apparently writing this code is, in spite of all the PhDs on your team, far too difficult for you. Please ask Laurent and Striatic for help.
Posted 50 months ago.
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On and on, ad infinitum...............
Posted 50 months ago.
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It's like talking to a really belligerent wall.
Posted 50 months ago.
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We will store your account information for billing and contact purposes on a secure server. We may make updates to our software and services to further protect your privacy. The content of your photos may be processed by a computer for facial recognition, detection of content or extraction of additional meta-data in future versions. Information collected will remain private and may be used to further enhance our services.
Just wondering why this is included in the terms of use for a non commercial app.
Also, explain the facial recognition part...
Posted 50 months ago.
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How did this get so off track from the API rules? Doesn't matter what the varying copyright laws are around the globe. The API has pretty specific terms regarding display of Flickr images outside of Flickr, and that they must follow the license terms of the photos.
If you are displaying images without permission, then you are violating the API terms. Not much else matters. Anything may be possible, but within the rules of the tool you licensed to make your application, not everything is permitted.
Why isn't the application simply geared towards an individual user? I have to authenticate to download my own images, the end. Why even make a violation option available? BigHugeLabs does this without much trouble. If you want to make a tiny mosaic, you can. But if you want to use the large file sizes, you have to authenticate yourself and then you get to use yours.
Seems odd that someone has little trouble using the API, while others protest that it is "impossible" to do the same.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Another tool beside FlickrDown is Downloadr!
Check google and flickr to find more about it...As you see here: www.flickr.com/groups/api/discuss/169135/ many users are reporting their problems with using the tool and they are asking for more features!! Downloadr is also meant to download photos ...But Flishr job is To Search / To Download/ To Upload and even it lets you to back up your photos, it lets you to make an XML file which contains all links to your photos which is a very easy way for you to use them for posting in Blogs ...it lets you to create a SET of TAGs and Descriptions, so you don't need to invest that much time, to input your Tags...it is even multi threaded so you can do some tasks together at a same time... When we built Flishr, we just developed it for our PicArtia project..later many of our friends asked us to publish it and I can tell you, after I checked hundreds of Windows Tools in past 6 months, Flishr is among top 10 tools which manages to do many tasks at a time....
We do respect to all photographers and we will check our application to see how we can add the feature of licensing warning to downloaders.
Posted 50 months ago.
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I'd like at this time to make sure I request you block all access to my material/images on flickr from your application (Flishr).
Thank you.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Rojina One of the developers of Photophlow is Striatic. He can be found through a member search. He also spoke up in a Flickr Central topic about your application:
www.flickr.com/groups/central/discuss/72157604687424558/
Everyone: the bit about the API respecting privacy settings? Reading that language, it seems to me that the API ToU is discussing privacy (can the public see it? Is it set to private?) and license/copyright. Please remember that even in the download setting in You >Your Account, it says:
* By "discourage" we do mean simply "discourage". Please understand that if a photo can be viewed in a web browser, it can be downloaded. The transparent image overlaid on the photo will not keep your images safe from theft, and is intended only as a slight hindrance to downloading.
It is not a guarantee that the large size will not be downloaded. This is because Flickr makes the large size available via a known url change of one character.
I'm all for us calling Flickr out on this oversight, I just wish that we'd do it. I see hints of it in every thread that pops up, but I see no concerted effort by those who care to ask Flickr to do something about the large size being returned. I also see no concerted effort by anyone who cares to get Flickr Down, or the other downloaders doing this sort of thing, to come into compliance with license or download settings. Why?
Rojina:
Perhaps instead of returning all images, you could simply return the user's images and any CC images on Flickr. Surely you can configure your app to do this?
Posted 50 months ago.
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Could you answer my last question!
Also, I also would like to state her that I want you to block all access to my Photos/Videos on flickr from your application (Flishr)
Posted 50 months ago.
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I don't want you to warn downloaders.
I have requested via email that you remove access to all of my ARR photos through your application.
So far, you have not responded to my request, although more than 24 hours have past.
I'd really hate to have to make a formal complaint to Flickr, because I think your tool has great possibilities.
But rather than deal with your own problems, you keep bringing up other applications. It makes no difference what other applications do.
If you are not going to respond to private emails, perhaps you can respond here in the Help Forum about how you are complying with my written request that you block your users from access to my ARR photos.
Posted 50 months ago.
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I'd like at this time to make sure I request you block all access to my material/images on flickr from your application (Flishr).
Thank you.
Me too.
Posted 50 months ago.
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It is not a guarantee that the large size will not be downloaded. This is because Flickr makes the large size available via a known url change of one character.
Sadly, this is why I restrict any ARR photo I upload to flickr (except the occasional private image) to 1280px - to keep the "large" size from being generated, period.
I'd love to upload larger sizes, but unless something changes wrt the large sizes, I'll have to continue uploading the smaller-sized ones.
Posted 50 months ago.
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Wow - I'd hate to be your arresting officer for that speeding charge. Would you just go on and on quoting names and addresses of people who you saw exceeding the speed limit over the years?
And at the end you will still get your fine and your endorsement. In fact, the cop will get so frustrated, he'll probably find four other things to write you tickets for.
Posted 50 months ago.
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It's one thing when it's done that way. It's another entirely when Flickr says "Here are the keys to the house. Please don't steal anything while we're away."
"If I can go to Flickr.com , come to your Photo Page, click on all sizes, and then download your photos, Will you claim that Flickr is abusing my photos!" Yeah, but I have my account set you that you CAN'T do that. If your software is ignoring that, it's YOUR problem to rectify because if my photos start showing up without my permission it will be YOU that I come after legally.
No, they said they would with Darckr and they never did. If they show up here, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
zyrcster 
So they violate the terms. Who at Flickr is going to put down the video camera long enough to actually DEAL with this issue? 
I'm curious why you only reply to people who are trying to provoke you
Sona Hassani 
It's like talking to a really belligerent wall.
I'd like at this time to make sure I request you block all access to my material/images on flickr from your application (Flishr).
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