|
|
Eric To all the critics saying we should have been more communicative BEFORE the changes hit the site, I personally agree with you. We did not handle this well at all.
The sad thing is, (like AustinTX said) that there seems to be a pattern.
E.g.: In the past people where NIPSA'd. Recently Comments containing imageshack images were deleted (spam but also valid comments). PayPal support was dropped. (what else?)
The point is not if those actions have been justified, or necessary, but as far as i know in all cases you did not only fail to communicate those measures before, but not even after they happened.
Only when somebody askes about it, probably after having spend some frustrating hour.
My intention is not to blame you for all mistakes you'ver ever done.
I only wonder if you are maybe not really aware that you should communicate to the user if something happens to him, his account or his data.
(It sometimes feels like "let's see if we can get away with it unnoticed, without having to justify or discuss it", which then isn't really helping trust.)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
You agree to not use the Service to:
upload [,,,] any content that is [...]otherwise objectionable
who decides what's "objectionable"? i suppose, flickr?
so basically, it should say : ... you cannot upload any content that flickr finds objectionable.
but how can i know if flickr will find something objectionable before i upload it?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
phoneyman QED.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@pierre: me too.
porn is somewhat maleably defined, but is realy separate from violence, imo, brenda.
the fuzzy grey "ddeffinnittionn" of flickrhoo TOU is just that. fuzzy.
@Multi: email me please.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
ian, just think of the kind of insults you could think of if only you were clever!
Pierre
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
(Good morning everybody)
 BenJ Who would define, what "porn" is? I don't want to start a debate over liberal here and prude there, but what might be considered okay in some parts of the world, might already be considered porn in others.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I for one would love to see a more definitive definition on "restricted" content. I had previously been erring on the side of caution, and marking full nudes as restricted. But, as the guidelines have evolved, and with the current state of the Germany restrictions, I have re-categorized all of my AN vacation photos as "moderate". There is nothing in my photos that you wouldn't see at a lakeside beach in Germany populated with mothers, children, and the family that rode out there on the bus with you.
If you do reserve "restricted" for the more extreme photos, I wouldn't have a problem with them being once again restricted to the private space.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
lou: fuzz.
flickr luvs fuzz.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
suncat: see my post previous.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I don't know what's abuse. I went looking in that other long thread for abuse, most of it was repetative, venting and speculating because people didn't know anything. With the sheer volume of posts there are bound to be a few that are insulting. I think staff are just intimidated by the sheer volume of discontent. I suppose if I had to deal with that number of people angry at me I would feel funny too. It doesn't mean you can jump to conclusions and say that there is a lot of general "abuse". In fact that other thread is so long and disorganized that it would not have been possible for any "mob mentality" or even groupthink to take hold - after about page 5 people must have stopped reading the whole thread so their comments would have mostly been informed by their own feelings about the issue and not by the general feelings of a group.
For an example of mob mentality, people jumping to conclusions and lining up to quit without investigating the issues....look to the utata thread about the announcement of the JPG changes. The one that begins with "These goons" and follows with people lining up underneath to delete their JPG accounts without even asking the other side what happened and why.
Most of what I've been reading here is people asking Flickr staff for more answers.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
 Ther﹣esa There was abuse and it was taken down. And even though I am on the pitchfork side of things - in my eyes it was the right thing to do to remove those pictures.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
the sheer volume surely indicates interest and concern.
i agree theresa: the quitters are the ones i am trying stop... it is painful to think that someone would leave such a wonderful community as flickr just because staff can't be more forthright with members.
oops. i typed that out loud.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I didn't say it was wrong to remove the pictures. I'm just saying I don't believe there was any significant amount of abuse relative to the number of posts.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
dom, it was funny the first pic... it was a groaner the second.
the third was neither.
for all things, there is a line.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
and that is the point of this entire protest.
the line.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Ther-esa: for any answers, more like it
kakul says:
we are all reading -- and working as hard as we can to address your needs while doing right by the laws in your local communities.
Well, Flickr staff, you could start by following German contract law then - which explicitly disallows changing the terms of a contract without prior notice and the offer of a refund.
I just got up, still havent had a coffee, but instead turned on the computer to see what has happened - and this is it? Just what everyone had been expecting? Still repeating the old vicious German law sentence, still all this we are sorry but we couldn't talk? This is just poor, I am deeply disappointed, and I am out of here. I will not renew my pro, I will no longer recommend flickr to anyone and I will remove my content over the next months.
Goodbye.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
staff???
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Well, now I know for sure that flickr founding and active staff is not in full control of its site any more. Someone else calls the shots, yet remains invisible and out of reach for being held accountable or even as little as issuing a statement or assuming responsibility.
So it is clear that something like this can very well happen again, maybe even tomorrow or next week. The reaction is not thorough and comprehensive enough to make me feel like flickr will return to be the nice, open community place that I joined three years ago.
This makes my money still unavailable to flickr. That is simply the way it is: No taxation without representation. (It is a historical quote. Look it up. You will be surprised.)
Also, you, or whoever put a leash and a muzzle on you, still have not understood that there is a huge difference in Germany between what some law states and how or whether it is interpreted or enforced.
For example, yesterday afternoon, I drove by a billboard in the countryside near my German hometown which advertised a product unrelated to body care showing nothing less than the back of a completely nude woman, head, to breast outline, to buttcrack (did I really type this?), to toe, against a neutral greenish-blue background.
On public display next to a heavily used commuter road, people.
And turn on the TV before the seven o' clock news and you will see soapy, glistening full frontal female breasts and nipples and navels (there was a time when you could not show even those in public in tne US) and round bottoms galore competing for your attention on bathing foams or shower gels.
Another example is nudie magazines. You know, the kinky, raunchy stuff for lonely widowers or teenagers in their full hormone hurricane of puberty. Those are available from the same kiosks or newsstands that sell sweets and comic magazines to minors over here.
Yes, the covers of the adult magazines are displayed in full public view next to the fashion magazines, the PC magazines, the newest tattoo catalogue and the fishing or wedding magazines. And no one objects about that over here.
It is a very typical US-American attitude "to play it safe" even when it is blatantly wrong and hurts everyone else who happens to be unfortunate or careless enough not to be American. I do not blame you for that, since you have been enduring a barrage of very massive threats against and damage of your cherished and now virtually extinct civil liberties.
We are starting to experience the same over here, but we are not ready to give up our constitutional rights as easily as your candy of freedom has been taken away from you. See, if you have been following the metaphor correctly so far, the whole point of this discussion is that we are not babies.
I do however blame you for not having done your homework properly. You let either your or someone else's (maybe your highly incompetent armchair lawyers?) fears of what might happen overrule your common sense of what has consistently failed to happen despite that German law that you are both fearing and hiding behind for protection against public opinion.
I am very sorry that it had to come to this. Yet, I am quite glad that I was able to get a glimpse of the true heart of your corporation before I spent too much money on your services.
So it is tit (hoho) for tat in the end, and this is very sad.
No money for ignorance and fear.
This could have been different, people. Whatever you once wanted to accomplish with this photo community project of yours has, unfortunately for everyone, failed miserably and turned quite ugly.
I am so, so sorry about this.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
docpi edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
dhania, you have my sympathy and support.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
docpi: i've been saying that for a week!!!!
that's one of the reasons i've been asking people to chill out!
eventually, every well runs dry.
patience = well.
formula on autocomplete...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
BenJ: thank you for asking. I think having other categories of restricted is only useful if people can opt out of those categories if they don't want to see them, and for those that do have them visible.
I don't see the point in having those categories if the photos must remain private. How would I see these photos if they were private?
The way I'd want to see these categories used is that i'd put a checkmark beside the categories I'm comfortable seeing (by default they're hidden). Then when I visit a contact's stream, or a pool, or when I do a search, I would see all the images I'm comfortable seeing, and all the ones that remained unchecked would be filtered. Optionally i would see the black image in place of the restricted content so that i can tell that it's there and click through to it if I so desired.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
ther-esa: that's unfortunately pretty common, maybe not just here; someone says something devoid of fact, and people listen and believe it. Mostly I think that comes from no common or available defense from the other side. Or at least that makes it faster to spread.
Content that fell into the "Restricted" bucket would need to be Private instead.
I think the definitions for "restricted" would have to be pretty darn clear, and severe. "porn" wouldn't work, as several people have commented on how subjective a term that is, both within in the US and across cultures.
Still seems like it's going backwards. Or at least admitting that the idea of letting us decide what we want to view, didn't work.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Rippie: You are right. The key is to first get a very clear understanding of the definition.
This is indeed an active thread. When I first started my reply, there were only two responses after the question from BenJ. By the time I hit "Post Now", my response was a page plus away. I have to learn to type faster ;-).
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
docpi
[...] You let either your or someone else's (maybe your highly incompetent armchair lawyers?) fears of what might happen overrule your common sense [...]
Thats exactly the point!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Or at least admitting that the idea of letting us decide what we want to view, didn't work.
Is it working?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
BenJ not completely :-D
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
BenJ: Up until about a week ago, wasn't it? unless on the backend, you guys were insanely swamped with filter review requests. Because the ideal should still be, letting people choose what types of images they want to see.
Maybe the other side, having us choose what catagories our images should fall into, is the problem. Between subjective, vague, impossible to classify classifications, and lack of communicating to Flickr users that there WERE filters, I could see some problems.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
It's good to remember that the filters are actually working really well in terms of people putting things in buckets, because of two main points: i) most people don't post contentious content - over 90%! - and ii) those that do know that the stuff they're posting is contentious, and want to do the right thing by the general public.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I don't think it was entirely working, because I have contacts who post very innocent photos and somehow a few of them were magically turned on to moderate, and then the user had to ask for a review, and staff put it back to safe.
So unless the definitions can be agreed upon by everyone i don't think it will work very well. But I suppose it's better to have finer control than what we currently have. I don't view that much restricted content so perhaps the fight over what is porn/violent and what isn't won't be that visible to me, so i won't really care. Unless a contact's innocent semi-nude will be flagged by someone as porn, then I'll get all antsy again.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George: that is a relief, and actually a surprise! :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
george: that works up untl the point that "the right thing" is no longer giving people the option to view the images. I'm happy to set images to "restricted" in the knowledge that I'm not going to freak anyone out, and that people who want to see it, can.
Lose that second part, the first part gets a little more gray.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
i have to agree with george.
that was the original assumption behind the design, no matter who takes credit for it: that MOST users would willingly adhere to the concepts behind the filters.
HOWEVER, george... benJ asks the concise question in this case.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I guess I'm still not sure the intent as BenJ asked. Why bother categorizing something if it's going to remain private? Unless I misunderstand what private means in this case.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
that is not a statement, but a question, in case you didn't catch that, george...
thanks for visiting the vipers' lair.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
If it is too tightly defined there will be inevitable arguments based on the minutiae of those definitions (like whether a penis is at 44 or 46 degrees). Loose definitions are much more effective.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I don't think it was entirely working
I didn't claim it was perfect :)
So unless the definitions can be agreed upon by everyone i don't think it will work very well.
Actually, I entirely disagree with this. There's no such thing as "everyone agreeing" - that's a utopian fantasy. We've all seen all the unwinnable debates over what porn means. It's just not possible.
That's why we want to rely on people's own intuitions first, and then if those intuitions are wrong, people will pipe up.
george: that works up untl the point that "the right thing" is no longer giving people the option to view the images.
We're working on it :)
[edit - preview box is too small!]
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
So unless the definitions can be agreed upon by everyone i don't think it will work very well.
that's what i meant when i said it wouldn't work...because it's impossible for everyone to agree.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
 George:
That's why we want to rely on people's own intuitions first, and then if those intuitions are wrong, people will pipe up.
See - that's the flickr spirit that we came to love - if the whole situation with the filters for people here in Germany would have been handled like this, the whole mess wouldn't have happened...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
george, okay.
what about germany?
germany.
you know.
that country we are here to find out why they cannot view content?
i DO appreciate your quick replies.
i hope that was not your last... as with the other staff who seem to have run away.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
We (really are) working on it :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Everybody has always had the option to look away when they see a thumbnail that might freak them out. That's what I do.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Ther-esa: some have better eyesight than others so they can still get offended by small thumbnails. No need to see the full-size image before deciding if they're offended :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
This is sad to read:
sooperkuh says:
I think they will find a sane age verification system within 4 weeks, but not all will be "well":
People in Singapore, Korea, Hong Kong will still be blocked (I read nowhere, that Yahoo/Flickr staff is working on that part of the problem, and they will do what brings in most money).
Some (few) German Flickr users will have left
Flickr staff will have learned a bit more about effective means of moderation, manipulating grass-roots activities etc. (I will not say that they learn about the active act of censorship, but about skills that form the base of censorship). They will probably be a bit more corporate/cynical after this.
Some Flickr users will be disillusioned about what they saw as a way of life or a social community, but that turned out to be just part of a large corporation. The magic of Flickr will be lost for many, especially of those personally affected by this. I will fall into that group, probably.
Some Flickr users will continue just as usual.
Originally posted 4 days ago. ( permalink )
flickr.com/groups/central/discuss/72157600367522963/#comm...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
We (really are) working on it :)
And unfortunately I'm not allowed to post here my traditionally bad jokes about Russian mafia and KGB :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
ther: that's not really enough... that battle was waged a year ago.
this is new facet, somewhat boiled down, of that.
george: that type of post is wearing thin. as i say, i can only hold back over 10K very unhappy people for so long. if you don't know what i mean, ask your compatriots. my people have been AMAZINGLY restrained, and only because i have asked.
there has to be more info. it just has to be.
don't let this get desparate.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Stewart and Staff
What you make with adult Germans is for me a bad joke
sorry
so many great german media pages show without any filter daily things like page one girl
and nobody say this is dirty porn or
example
www.bild.t-online.de/
this the german biggest newspaper
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
proggie: big thumbs up. you have it sussed out.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
unfortunately, though much as it seems so, flickr is not a public space. it is a privately owned space that is controlled by it's owner, yahoo.
thus, it is more like a shopping mall than a public square, where things like free speech are rights. if the property owners do not like your presence or dislike your speech in a privately controlled space (which flickr is) they are within their legal rights as property owners to make you leave.
sadly, we have built up a community inside this 'mall' and now we are feeling like squatters because we don't like what the mall owners are doing with the place. and that is basically tough shit for us. we can complain, but we have to realize that the management is tolerating our complaints. they don't have to. they don't have to guarantee free speech, or any other rights other than those outlined in the Terms Of Service and user agreement. sad, isn't it, when a company owns a community.
right now i am feeling more freedom and opportunity over at Ipernity.com many have moved there, many more will.
www.ipernity.com/home/luxmatic
i am saddened by the personal attacks on staff here. much as i abhor the course that yahoo/flickr undertook, i don't think attacking staff can in any way result in anything productive. by slinging mud we are challenging them to look past the stupidity to work on the problem, which is to get rid of this censorship.
don't waste their energy, don't waste your own. *many* of us are angry and upset by this, even if it doesn't actually affect us directly. i know how violated i would feel if i suddenly had no choice.
peace and solidarity.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
 Rippie: Contra Censura!! wow, you have 10k people waiting for you to say go? That's amazing.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
A different question: Why is unsafe stuff not blocked in conservative islamic countries? Or has Germany more restricted laws than let's say Iran?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
it is testing me, dom.
but i am ever grateful for the restraint.
as i will be for releasing it.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
manganite: flickr/yahoo doesn't have a corporate presence in conservative islamic countries
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
The thing that makes me wonder most at all is that flickrhoo (like this ;)) is not even officially responding to the press (in terms of press-release). The editors I was speaking/writing with also did not get a sufficient response. There have been about 20 articles about the censoring issu (only roughly counted the major media) ...
Btw: @steward: It was well thought over to open a new thread and "remove" the word censoring from the topic?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
manganite... that is part of the next discussion.
uae is blocked now. so is singapore. but i have contacts in emirates (i will not which, to protect them) who use proxy access to get onto flickr.
what a pain, and a couple still can't see pics, just text.
grrrrr!!!!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"This is sad to read..."
And yet not - don't forget that many, many people aren't even aware this discussion exists, are perfectly happy with Flickr, and are posting the gorgeous, sad, mundane, entertaining, non-flower photos they normally post that aren't in the least bit contentious.
"george: that type of post is wearing thin. as i say, i can only hold back over 10K very unhappy people for so long. "
Rippie - we appreciate your efforts!! Honestly - supportive voices in this venomous past few days have been sweet relief for eveyone on the team. But, we have somewhere around 9 million people to facilitate, not hold back :)
Seriously - if people are so entirely upset by what we're doing here, they should look for a place that suits them better.
I don't mind if you think I'm wearing thin - I'm happy to repeat myself too - in the hope that the message gets through from us to you, despite various cries of FASCISM etc.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
actually, i am surprised, too, myfear.
that there have been no quotes attributable to flickr other than those lifted from threads here.
that seems like poor pr management to me.
again, as i said long ago, i'd be tripping over myself to attend to THAT too.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George And yet not - don't forget that many, many people aren't even aware this discussion exists
I am not shure, if this is good or bad? Someone could guess, that this need much more publicity, than it already had? Would this help? I promiss to support you in spreading the news ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Is it not a problem for the filter system if the people can choose what they want? If I upload photos I'll never choose restricted, because the German users can't see it. So everyone will upload moderated photos, even if they should be restricted.
Example: Any Nazi-sign like the swastika (Hakenkreuz) has to be flagged as restricted, but no right wing extremist will do that. And I know that problem from Szene1.at, where I'm a photographer. It's the largest community in Austria and you can do nothing against those photos until you get knowledge of them. But if the Szene1-staff gets informed, the photos and the user are deleted in just 10 minutes.
And what if there are photos like the Google Earth example, which was posted before? The swastika is a very old and traditional symbol in many cultures. Or what is, if you are in Kuna Yala, a territory with a swastika in his official flag?
There is also the following paragraph from the German law:
"(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient."
So you can use any old photos from the Nazi-regime if you post it in a historical context. For example old photos of your family or photos from you hometown in the time around 1940.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Triotex edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
That's a good question. Are we a vocal minority? Do the millions of users not care, or do they just don't know about this issue?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Rippie: There is a limit to variety of responses when there's apparently still unseen restraint as well as not new news every ten minutes. I'd say that'd fall in the "don't look a gifthorse.." catagory. I'd rather there were staff in here responding, even to side issues and conceptual stuff, than no staff responses at all.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
The Searcher edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
manganite:
Iran blocks flickr completely, I believe. but you should ask Hamed Saber about that.
singapore should be 'filtered', not 'blocked'.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"We are still limiting access for users in Germany to the "restricted" category on Flickr, [...]
CENSORSHIP CONTINUES. THANKS FOR NOTHING - I WANT MY MONEY BACK!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Is it not a problem for the filter system if the people can choose what they want? If I upload photos I'll never choose restricted, because the German users can't see it. So everyone will upload moderated photos, even if they should be restricted.
Triotex: That's were those other millions of people come in :)
We'd need a staff of 67,000,000 to keep tabs on every photo on Flickr from the inside. I'd like to think we're trying to extend trust, although the law in various places doesn't let us do that very well, at the moment.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
George (staff) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Triotex: i think this is how flickr wants and accepts user managed/moderated content to work. That some citizens will flag content that should be restricted. This is how my friend's innocent photos got flagged as moderate (even though most people wouldn't consider it moderate).
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Is this a joke? - even after a week there is no plausible legal explanation. No flickr staff member goes into the questions in the forum. The long awaited solution is a joke. As Proggie mentioned people or the staff can individually mark photos but that doesn't mean that this censorship complies to any law. How sad is this. I'm not angry about this censorship but about the lack of communication from the flickr staff.
But I'm more than glad to see that great photographers I know from the flickr community like ♫ marc_l'esperance or Proggie who both live in Vancouver, B.C. (Canada) are supporting us here. That brings back the communitiy feeling that flickr stood for since the beginning.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
vividBreeze edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Rippie: "that type of post is wearing thin. as i say, i can only hold back over 10K very unhappy people for so long. if you don't know what i mean, ask your compatriots. my people have been AMAZINGLY restrained, and only because i have asked."
Wow - did the messiah designation come ex cathedra or were you democratically elected? ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George: Awareness comes in many lawyers. layers, I mean layers. The point people have raised about no official Flickr or Yahoo voice in response to the myriad media reports, that's an issue here in the flickrverse as well.
Because yes, while the majority of Flickr users aren't aware of what's exactly occurring, do not mistake that for total lack of awareness. The constant protest images, and protest icons, have created a visual "noise" on Flickr that is widely noticed. Except all they get is that surface something, that "Censored" graphic, that angry post over there. And with no voice from Flickr as a counter-message, it just comes across as a general oh, they must have done something bad, people are saying so.
As ther-esa pointed out with the JPG thing; conclusions get jumped pretty fast in here. a little more PR/grass-roots/community savvy would not be a bad thing.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
george... really...
i'm probably twice your age or more.
that was not a good reply.
i am tired. you all are tired. this all sucks. people goddam pissed off.
no, they are fucking goddam pissed off.
check my history. i do not curse lightly.
i think that perhaps you do not (en masse) fully understand how much media damage has already been done to flickr as a brandname.
i can't stop that stuff.
in fact, awareness outside of flickr is important.
but seriously, the "we are doing what we can" non-messages are undermining me. as such... well, you can figure it out.
and i am totally replaceable, soooooo...
i am going to bed now.
as an incredibly unhappy person.
and i am not as unhappy as the people who have trusted me to speak for them.
i cannot say what i will wake up to.
a few days became a week, became 24 hours more became another 6, and I ASKED FOR ANOTHER 8 HOURS from nearly 12000 people to hold tight and not erupt.
i vouched for you guys.
thanks a lot.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George:
Seriously - if people are so entirely upset by what we're doing here, they should look for a place that suits them better.
What I'm saying for a week now. The problem is, that Flickr makes it easy to upload and organize your stuff, but hard to get it back. If you would like to be nice to the community and acknowledge that you screwed up, then give us an extensive export tool and a refund. It would only be fair. The way it is now, it's like your bank would say "of course you can leave, but you may only withdraw $50 each day".
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
stewart, i am defending you. don't mistake that.
there are a ton of enraged people here on flickr.
if you don't want me to be reasonable and state the case, delete my account.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Flickr has a problem with Germany so let me write in german
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leute gebt euch keine Mühe .Es ist gelaufen,Das alte Flickr ist Tod.Kapiert es doch ;)
Die typische amerikanische Hysterie hat gesiegt ;)
Wir machen die Welt zu einem sauberen und besseren Platz für alle.
Land of the Free und noch heute Probleme mit dem Telefon
Na
Hat schon mal jemand versucht aus der amerikanischen Provinz in Deutschland anzurufen. ;)
Sowas hat vor 20 Jahren schon aus Marokko geklappt
aus jeder verbeulten Telefonzelle ;)
Macht es endlich "Klick" bei euch ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
we do not have to be friends to want the same thing, which is an unfettered flickr.
that was totally unnecessary, stewart.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@George:
"And yet not - don't forget that many, many people aren't even aware this discussion exists, "
But sometimes it seems that you and staff are not aware of the fact the meanwhile dozens of big newspaper and magazine has published in internet or also on real paper one or more articles criticizing flickr/yahoo for their behavior in this case. One of the biggest one (Der Spiegel, something like Time or Newsweek) even called you liars and the hwhole thing a desaster for you. And are you aware of the fact that now millions of people (all potential new customers) have now a bad connotation if they her the flickr?
Concerning PR and general communictions the whole affair is not understandable.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Thanks Staff for all of you piping up. As someone who actually believes you all want to do the right thing, it's nice to hear from you individually on the thread.
I'm sad to see there isn't a fix that comprehensively restores German users to parity with other uses around the world, but I also accept the explanation that there are reasons for what's going on, even if we can't be told them. And that you all will keep working to make things better.
Such is life in a large organization, and anyone who hasn't spent their time banging their head against some organizational walls might not get that. Hopefully someone on your end can come up with a solution that satisfies both German law and German user desires.
And before people start, I know some out there don't think that German law requires the measures Flickr has put up. But I still see no logical reason to go through this hell on their end if they weren't being compelled by law or some other force.
So thanks Staff, sorry I am too lazy to list you all by name. Keep looking for a fix.
Some of us love even flawed things.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Scyt**e
The problem is, that Flickr makes it easy to upload and organize your stuff, but hard to get it back.
not that hard. there are lots of tools that let you download your original photos from flickr, together with description and tags, to import them to oher sites. not all those tools are perfect and they are mostly beta, but they work well enough.
i've transfered more than 500 photos + description + tags + geotags to other sites in the last couple of days. it was less painful that i anticipated.
the most amazing tool is the great greasemonkey script that transfers photos directly from flickr to ipernity with a simple click. the only bug is that it transfers at most 20 tags.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@Stewart:
"Wow - did the messiah designation come ex cathedra or were you democratically elected? ;) "
Cynicism and arrogance is not very professional.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
you and staff are not aware of the fact the meanwhile dozens of big newspaper and magazine has published in internet or also on real paper one or more articles criticizing flickr/yahoo for their behavior in this case
Actually, we've seen spreadsheets with a "shit taken" percentage column.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
my people have been AMAZINGLY restrained, and only because i have asked
I think what happened so far in flickr was good. It's like a small history lesson actually. The crowd revolted, for a day or two it was genuine, angry and beautiful. And I really mean beautiful. Then came Rippie and called us "my people".
I thought slavery was abolished long time ago.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
you know what, i agree with benrobert... i appreciate the massive presence of staff here, because this is a big deal.
all anyone wants is to have some idea of why and how this mess happened, what's being done to remedy it and the timeframe.
so far, we've not heard much other than "we're working on it, really."
stop speaking as if members are all children.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
manganite maybe it's the try to get back to the good old "community feeling" ...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Rippie: I wish I knew who you were talking about. Where were these ten thousand people all week? Because that last forum thread didn't quite clear 5000 posts, and that's only from about 450 of us, and probably mostly from about 50 of us. So what's the flood for? Just because you don't like the answers yet?
Up there near the top, you seemed at least a little placated by the "moderate" images being set free. So at about 11pm Flickr Staff time, is there really something more you expect of them that they could possibly give you tonight? Is it really so bad that they can't speak as lawyers right now? Moderate images are now available, and a better solution seems to be on the way. Why the miffed with all that?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
nice nb. thanks a bunch.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@George:
"Actually, we've seen spreadsheets with a "shit taken" percentage column. "
Seems the whole thing is only fun for you...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Proggie That's a good question. Are we a vocal minority? Do the millions of users not care, or do they just don't know about this issue? Of course you are. And I am in an even smaller minority - those who are aware of the issue, thought flickr should receive a bit of understanding and said so. I think we are Walwyn, Fallsroad, me and a couple of others. I think that leaves about 8,000,500 for whom the argument is irrelevant.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart, I really, really would appreciate a response to my respectfully submitted queries. If you have no intention of answering these questions, or cannot answer at this time, notice would also be appreciated.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"Seems the whole thing is only fun for you... "
Funny... that used to be the good old community feeling.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
George (staff) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
I find the tone of hubris from the staff here tonight to be really remarkable... yet unsurprising.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Lola Lyndon: Stone Cold Fox! edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
German only? How about those in HongKong, Singapore and Korea?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Damned if you do, damned if you don't!
Why do you think we don't feel like participating?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@George: To fit the laws? There are millions of paragraphs which might be relevant for Flickr. In Austria we have a special "pornography act", then 9 different protection of minors laws (in every federal state - and we are just 8m people) and many other media and hosting company related stuff.
So: How will you try to be in accord with all different laws? I think a filtering system is the wrong way. Yahoo! search is not filtered in Germany, Google doesn't filter the results, so why Flickr? Because people can flag there photos how the want? You can implement filters if there is a neutral instance.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George it used to be the good old community feeling
Got it!... you (not personaly but your employer) lost something during the last week ... maybe this is part of it ...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
just wake up. (i am now in germany) and i just read the thread.
well, i am not one of those who is happier.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
loupiote:
I was talking about an extensive export tool. That means it would include not only title, description and tags, but also comments, notes, views, geo data, set association and so on. I'm not talking about the ability to really import that data back somewhere, but I certainly want to be able to archive the status quo of my photostream as detailed as possible.
But Flickr seems more busy saying meaningless stuff over and over again, and even George, who I directly replied to, ignores people who actually take the effort to write a reply and instead makes fun out of others.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@♫ marc_l'esperance : I used to think that too, and I used to use the mall analogy as well. I tried to remind people that it was not a commons of any kind, just a business and that the users represented the market for its services. I've since changed my mind because people seem to feel such a strong sense of belonging and of ownership. Sure we are the market and also the content suppliers. Not just buyers or tenants hawking other people's products but suppliers. Suppliers of photo content but also problem solvers if you look at who sends in bug reports, answers questions from new people, runs groups, and provides the human interaction that generates traffic to the site. Its a different model. Furthermore, it is not so easy to just up and leave. If you have photos in groups that you don't want to see gutted after all the work the individual admins have put into them. I mean, community is an organic thing - its got a life of its own that can't be so easily controlled by whoever "owns" it. You can't just amputate parts of it without causing bleeding in other places. I am beginning to doubt that it is possible for Yahoo or anyone else to "own" community, but I think some people are beginning to recognize that it is a force to reckon with - on the same level as shareholders, governments, and others with a desire to control it.
That is why I asked (in the other thread) if we would ever hear from Yahoo just what it is they think they bought and how they expect to profit from "user generated content".
edit: link to marc's comment since there have been so many other posts since:
www.flickr.com/help/forum/43626/page4/#reply242155
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
teh resa edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Good morning vietnam.
What is with the other countries?
Free flickr everywhere.
thinkflickrthink
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
iansand: "we" = people participating in the forum and protesting = people who care about this issue. I wasn't taking sides, though i'm clearly sitting on the fence, though leaning towards the protester side :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Scyt**e
Have you seen our API? It provides extensive access to your personal data.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Scyt**e
but you don't own the comments on your photos. flickr owns the copyrights on all the comments, as i understand it.
but i agree, it would be nice to have a full archive of those - in case our accounts get deleted by flickr, like it happened to others in the past.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
anybody know abot the funeral for the old flickr
the date place time
i will come with my best black "blues brother" dress
and i rent for this event a 60s cadillac in black
i saw the light i saw the light no more darkness....
Thanks you Stewart and staff
it was a great time on the old "canadian free" flickr
but the good thing for me and anothers is
we have 2007 so flickr one of many photo sharing pages on the web
i love flickr,but i sell no my kind for a better life
thats the importend thing
all this daily words about social network is not true
it is a business make money
but peoples forget this sometimes
ok ok stewart make you a good life its your life
you have luck trhat someone buy a pool of scripts from you
thats fine ;)
but please say the peoples the true not this "social friendship stuff"
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
you know, searcher, things take time.
i kept my mouth shut out of the expectations that staff would actually step up the plate after the last "mea culpa" event. that is not what has transpired.
stewart and i do not get along. we can both live with that because we both know that making flickr rock is what we both, for different reasons at time, want.
so, until now, when he posts, i cut him slack, and the benefit of the doubt.
in this most important situation, affecting the 4th largest represented nationality in the flickr system, the post "mea culpa" era transparency and honesty promised evaporated at the first major public crisis.
i have also spent a lot of time and effort to explain to thousands of people precisely that: some things in negotiation cannot be divulged.
i have been called stewart, and an ass-licker for that.
and i defended flickr for exercising what tools they had available to either work through yahoo or around them.
i also asked people to hold themselves back from the extremely disruptive things they want to do that i do not condone.
all this in a group thrown in my lap that i did not found, and that i did not select the mods.
in a group in which i do not speak the dominant (at this time) language. in which the membership grew from zero to over 11K in 5 days.
it's in my lap. i don't walk away from responsibility.
i don't own anyone.
but i am responsible for them.
thus, my people.
if it mean i am deleted from flickr, that should tell you all you need to know.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
Feed – Subscribe to help discussion threads