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I can only agree (mine account runs a bit longer, but it's the same).
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thank you Kristian... I totally agree!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Excellent post, I could not agree more.
I wonder how those millionaires-over-night (Flickr staff) feel experiencing what Yahoo! does to their service, completely unable to do anything but stare in disgust at what happens right in front of their eyes. They might have feared that something like this could happen, but I guess they always said, "heck, take the money and run", and "it does not necessarily end like this".
Now it has happened, and I predict that soon the senior folks at Flickr (those who can afford it) leave the company and turn to other opportunities. There have been several examples, especially with Yahoo! acquiring companies. Just ask Mark Cuban or the Geocities folks. Their services died a long painful death at Yahoo!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Well written. I completely agree!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Amen to most of that.
I will leave though, if the problem isn't fixed soon. I don't want to. Flickr was unique. I have yet to see an alternative that isn't second rate in terms of variety, usability, features and community. One of the reasons I have a pro account is that I wanted to support one of the best services on the web.
But it's not the same any more. I will always know that my Flickr experience is crippled because of the expansion plans of a huge profit orientated company.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I totally agree.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Fully agreed.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Well written, thanks!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Where can I put my name? Totally agree with every word of Kristian's open letter!
My Pro will expire June, 10th... :,-(
Posted 60 months ago.
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I´ll totaly agree !!
Posted 60 months ago.
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i completely agree!!!
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Well written
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Yes, I can completely agree, too! Thanks for writing this! Well done!
Greetings from Helsinki,
- Martin
Posted 60 months ago.
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i'm whit you!!!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Well said!
I am in no way a 'Christian', but I have come to believe that saying about 'money is the root of all evil'!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I couldn't agree more! Well done!
Posted 60 months ago.
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seconded and thirded
Posted 60 months ago.
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kawazu@z428 "I only can speak for myself here...".
It seems you speak for a lot of people here.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree and sign!
Posted 60 months ago.
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You've raised some good points. Specially about how it's our work that Yahoo! is getting for nix.
Posted 60 months ago.
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hear! hear!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree. In contrast I'm just a new member of this community even so I knew it for a long time.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thanks - agreed - fully!
Posted 60 months ago.
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AMEN-we say NO to censorship
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Zensur ist inakzeptabel.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Second that.
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I am leaving, check zoomr on censorship. Things CAN be different
Posted 60 months ago.
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ACK!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Full ACK
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree about the form, the content and the conclusions.
My Pro account expires in January 2009 and I will not renew it for no reason. Even if the policy of Flickr changes now, I feel I have no guarantee they will not be reinstated it at some point in time. It's a matter of trust. Which has been broken.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thank you Kristian!!! I totally agree!
Absolute Zustimmung!
Mein Pro endet auch im Mai 2007... hoffen wir das Beste!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I fully agree!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Well done! Thank you!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Very well written. I totally agree with you.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I sign it - too. Well done.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I completely agree! Well written
Posted 60 months ago.
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The money is an interesting point and think thats rooted in the fact Yahoo now owns Flick.
I really see Yahoo as a huge corp that makes a zillion billion a year. They are kinda generous offering unlimited mail storage for my spam too. Was thinking they say 7 million users on Flick but probably just a million active??....Be a drop in the bucket for Yahoo to pay us all $100 a year to post pics.
But you are looking at what is, not what was. They struggled for you and never had to. Go look at "everyones photos" and classify what is art and what is snapshot/storage. We the art segment is less than 1%. Yet Flick created the most inovative super art system there exists on the net...and they didn't have to appease us at all....and i say "us" because its doubtful the 99% of image storers ever come to this forum or could give a rats behind about the system or censorship or anything about this site.
Maybe Yahoo is making some questionable policys but if they were any other typical corperate America outfit they would have said blah...this 1% is a total pain in the ass and we don't need them. But they didn't and this site is now fueled by the bigbucks. Flickr staff continues making it better daily and i think its time to remeber why u post to the net in the first place.
Because all your pics were on a hardrive and nobody ever saw them.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Nicely said. I HOPE they will write a statement ( a non commercial behaved statement) without any "we can not say more at this moment" shit.
Posted 60 months ago.
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In the same tone, if there was no commercial way to make a profit from it, no one will do it.
I agree with the letter.
Posted 60 months ago.
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ja
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thanks a lot for this post. My account runs until about the same time and if things don't change back to how it was, I'll also leave.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Omsel: My storage is on my own server, and the pics there are also well viewed. I am _here_ for the community, not the storage.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Very well said, Kristian: I feel exactly the same and could not have expressed myself better.
I too will leave flickr if this horrible mess is not sorted soon and well.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I have to sign that too - without a doubt.
Posted 60 months ago.
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You have perfectly expressed the dissapointed feeling I'm currently suffering... I'll not renew my pro account. The sense of free community is lost and I think it's probably lost forever.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree. flickr is making Germany the reason, I think it's an excuse for something much closer to home.
They seem to be exploiting the perception that the German government is in denial about the attitude and aspirations of a very few of its citizens, and making that the start of something just as big and sinister as the events of 70 years ago only not in Germany.
No, by "home" I mean places like Pennsylvania Avenue and Downing Street
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree , that's my mind too. I have a flickr pro account since august 2005 I lost some of my contacts by yahoo takeover and ongoing in the last two days and it makes me miserable............
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree with this letter 100%. I hope things change before the end of July, when my pro membership expires. If so, I may be staying. If not, then I'll look for alternatives....
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thanks, Kristian! I agree with you and the conclusions you draw from this situation.
Unfortunately my Pro account expires not before August 2008 but nevertheless
I probably will have to leave Flickr within the next two weeks, unless Yahoo changes fundamentally its policy with Flickr in this time – what can hardly be expected, by contrary: The today’s elimination of all respectively tagged protest pictures from EXPLORE by the flickr-staff (see here: www.flickr.com/groups/againstcensorship/discuss/721576003... ) demonstrates that the censorship of Yahoo not only continues but even gets being forced! I feel we will have no guarantee that they will follow this way further on and on. The trust has been broken.
Besides of all this unsavory and unacceptable behavior of Yahoo (that rules behind flickr): I’m astonished and very, very glad about that terrific international solidarity in protest against censorship! Thanks to all comrades-in-arms!
Posted 60 months ago.
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manwerk edited this topic 60 months ago.
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signed
Posted 60 months ago.
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Thanks for the letter. I agree. The whole thing has disappointed me very much. I feel bad about what yahoo has done to this community. My pro account ends in May next year, but I am not sure whether I will keep it as long. It's really a pity.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I mostly agree with your letter, and I am also seriously considering not to renew my pro account which runs out in March.
I'm still looking for a site that has equal functionality and community, and allows for easy import of my photostream, cause I don't want to do all the work of naming, tagging, sorting and geotagging all over again.
By the way, it's exactly that work we do for them what they "love us" for.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Good Lord! Someone sure banged away on the keyboard to make that long post. If only people would take a minute to briefly explain what this "censorship relating to Germany" is all about, perhaps people elsewhere could contribute an idea or two.
Posted 60 months ago.
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ok, any suggestion about another comunity ???
Posted 60 months ago.
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"I have of late, just like kawazu, lost all my mirth" :(
Posted 60 months ago.
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good job kristian, i wholeheartedly agree.
at some point i was close to considering a PRO account, but with the current censorship forced on me by flickr staff i surely won't become pro ever...
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree.
Posted 60 months ago.
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this gets my full support as well!! Since yahoo owned flickr seems to care just about money, we will get you there. I held a pro-account for two years. Now I won't renew it unless you quit your outrageous censorship!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I don't see why I should be working for this company for free.
This sense of entitlement is flawed.
I am looking forward to the theatrics ending. This has only been a few days and there aren't any signs a solution won't be implemented.
Posted 60 months ago.
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_mpd_ edited this topic 60 months ago.
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Some reasons why I won't renew my pro account:
- my confidence is broken now, coz even if they find a reasonable solution nobody knows what comes next
- i don't think that they're find a solution
- Flickr has lost its virginity - it will never be the same again
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree also, and am both angry and upset about this business. I can't help wondering if the inability to turn off "Safe Search" in these few countries is only a pretext for establishing more censorship world-wide. I am also appalled at my fellow US citizens' remarks indicating they don't care about censorship as long as it doesn't apply to them. That is not only selfish but extremely foolish. It most certainly can happen in the US; censorship already has a stronger hold here than it has at any time since the nation's founding.
My Pro account runs out next spring. I don't know if I'll remain on Flickr that long or not; I doubt it.
Oddly, for completely unrelated reasons, I deleted all my photos from Flickr a few days ago. I'm glad now that I did.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree as well and I will not get a new PRO account in September. I do not have very much fun here anymore. Drysachs said it before. It will never be the same again. It's very sad.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I completely agree with what you've written. Well done!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Signed too!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I received my pro-account as a gift from fellow-flickr and it made me very happy basically. I totally love the flickr community but now I am very sad to see how flickr staff and/or yahoo is working against it. Now I am not sure if I'll continue using flickr. I dislike the new policy and many contacts have stopped uploading, and some already deleted their accounts. :(
Posted 60 months ago.
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A perfect text. I totally agree.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Bingo.
Posted 60 months ago.
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BTW: I'm thinking about moving from censr to www.23hq.com/
Posted 60 months ago.
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BTW2 @Omsel:
"Because all your pics were on a hardrive and nobody ever saw them."
My pics would be on the webserver I've rented and would be seen at least by my friends and contacts.
I did not buy my Pro membership to have some Webspace. I bought my Pro membership to support the community flickr used to be.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I'm thinking about going to www.ipernity.com Looks much like flickr, but can do even more (I like the look better than 23hq ;).
Posted 60 months ago.
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i'm currenty giving 23hq a shot as well... looks good so far, except for being extremely slow, probably due to all the flickrists trying it out at the moment :)
Posted 60 months ago.
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Just signed up there. Hopefully yahoo will change their mind. But since they keep on "thinking" I keep on trying 23hq.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Kristian you did a great job - I totally agree - The best statement in that discussion
Thank you
Posted 60 months ago.
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@phoenix51: Flickr disallows us German users to switch off the safe search. A result of this is that we are not allowed to see pictures marked as moderated or restricted anymore. In addition they changed the TOS to include this action without telling anyone. They hide behind the German laws, telling us that it is necessary to do so to avoid people under 18 seeing things they are not allowed to see. However, the paragraphs they probably are speaking of forbid to make hardcore pornography available to children which is against flickr rules anyway. A nude woman, a nipple or "the finger" do not fall into this category.
What's even worse is that no one of Flickr told us that they are going to do so, why they did it and how. We were suddenly not able to see a lot of pictures anymore. After we started protesting and posting pictures that we are against this censoring they removed them from explore, etc.
So, no one told us, they took measurements far behind what is required by German law (if it is anyhow), and reacted on our protests even worse - by censoring more.
Posted 60 months ago.
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well said!
a note for german users:
because of the restrictions to use flickr or the change of the tos or the change of the responsible company (y! us -> y! germany) you can immideately cancel the service before time and get your money refunded, because this makes you have a sonderkündigungsrecht (just google for it).
for all:
i don't really put much hope into a real change of mind coming up. that never happened in similar cases in the past, when communities went to a big company. they eventually lose their spirit, some slowly, some - in case of all y! buys inevitably - fast.
my experience with this (i left several communities that went bad) is, that they don't want individuals. they want the masses. the masses dont complain, they consume and they accept what they get sold. every new customer, from the time we are gone and the traces of the protest (which is necessary nonetheless, noone should be silent when he gets mobbed out like us) have been eradicated, will know no other flickr. so they rather will annoy us so much that we will leave even faster than slower, than trying to find a solution we like and get us back. they don't want us back. they want us to leave.
And we will leave. Thats for sure. Most of the german bloggers don't discuss anymore, what happens here. they discuss, where to go.
yahoo wants flickr to be the family-snapshot massmarket site they tried to establish with yahoo photos. thus, they are closing Y!photos and tell these users to change to flickr. these customers will be glad here, because flickr is way better that Y!photos and they will replace all the formerly pro-account paying germans. for yahoo the way this works out is completely ok, see?
so: i for my part protested. what next? i stopped uploading pics. i will not renew my pro-account. i will not speak to yahoo or flickr staff. i will just leave here as soon as we know where to change to. flickr will survive this protest and will survive us leaving. it will change to a happy family site with print ordering functions, which will fit excellent to yahoos business philosophy.
cheers,
jens
Posted 60 months ago.
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jensscholz edited this topic 60 months ago.
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i will not renew my pro account
Posted 60 months ago.
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I totally agree to your clear and open words, Kristian and I sign it, too!
Sabine
Posted 60 months ago.
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You got it, Kristian. I totally agree with you. Very well written, thanks.
Posted 60 months ago.
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signed
Posted 60 months ago.
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jensscholz: Very well pointed out. That's what I too understood when I read about Y!Photos going to be merged with censr.
flickr died on June 13th 2007
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree and sign!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Signed !
Complete mismanagement of FLICKR CEO's....fire them !
I never saw a "multinational" making these terrible violations against basic human rights (freedom of speech, thought, press, art etc)
Shame on U !!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Amsterdamned! edited this topic 60 months ago.
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I wholeheartedly agree, Kristian.
Internet used to be about freedom.
Freedom implies judgement.
If someone judges for me, I am no longer free.
Posted 60 months ago.
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+1
Posted 60 months ago.
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In plain terms, can any of you state why flickr "censored" photos from certain locales? I'm not sure that any of you actually understand.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Bree R
Are U joking? Come on !
Posted 60 months ago.
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Amsterdamned! edited this topic 60 months ago.
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Good!
Posted 60 months ago.
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I agree.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Bree_R: All we do have by now are vague "official" statements that, at least talking about Germany, leave one thinking that either Flickrs or Yahoo!s attorneys didn't at all bother dealing with the legal environment they tried to adopt to, in depth, or they have to be completely stupid. I don't believe in either option. Read this comment in another thread, this is quite a good summary of things (German point of view, again, I can only speak for Germany) that gets to the point in my opinion.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@kawazu@z428
Well said neighbour !
Any company has to be transparent in regard to mission, goals and important decisions.....and last bust not least any company has to be client-oriented and client-friendly.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Amsterdamned! edited this topic 60 months ago.
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Agreed, signed.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Yep, you're right.
Posted 60 months ago.
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True, Kristian. Also wrote a letter.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Kawazu -
Thank you for your reply. In kind, I will compliment you on a well worded and (mostly) polite original post.
I tend to think that flickr/yahoo's legal and business team is not as stupid as you think. Insulting them in that manner probably does a disservice to all the individuals who have educated themselves and built professional careers in the legal and biz worlds. It's also worth note that several forum replies from the flickr staff have hinted or been implicit that the decision was not cavalier; it was reluctant, but necessary.
Can you agree that the individuals for legal advice and business leadership are, in all likelyhood, operating in arenas of a professional caliber? That they are, literally experts and professionals? That they are well versed in the generalities and details of their respective professions, and that their paycheck is well deserved?
It's a simple question, but part of the whole. Do you agree or disagree. Looking forward to your reply.
Thanks.
-B
Posted 60 months ago.
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I tend to think that flickr/yahoo's legal and business team is not as stupid as you think. Insulting them in that manner probably does a disservice to all the individuals who have educated themselves and built professional careers in the legal and biz worlds. It's also worth note that several forum replies from the flickr staff have hinted or been implicit that the decision was not cavalier; it was reluctant, but necessary.
+1.
Yahoo legal very much wants to make everyone happy. You can't assume otherwise. It's rather obvious they are not currently allowed to speak totally freely on this issue while some sort of legal issue is being resolved -- in the past, everyone has been totally transparent. Given that, wait a while, and see what happens. If it doesn't get resolved, _then_ get upset if you must.
It is very much the nature of the internet for everyone to be offended all of the time, but as occam's razor states, the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation. It's not a simple explanation to assume Flickr is stupid, doesn't care about your business, or is out to get you. In fact, everything you know is to the contrary.
Wanting to offend all the Germans who are looking for restricted content is clearly not something anyone wants to do, and staff has said they are trying to resolve this. Yahoo is a big company, and some things take a little time in all large companies to get pushed through -- especially when dealing with lawyers and such.
Given Flickr has been absolutely _awesome_ in the past, no one has any reason to think otherwise at this point in time either. Give them time to get their legal issues straightened out, and if neccessary, build the required technical infrastructure to do what they need.
You'll be back online and surfing your nudes (or whatever else) soon enough.
Posted 60 months ago.
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_mpd_ edited this topic 60 months ago.
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Flickr disallows us German users to switch off the safe search. A result of this is that we are not allowed to see pictures marked as moderated or restricted anymore. In addition they changed the TOS to include this action without telling anyone. They hide behind the German laws, telling us that it is necessary to do so to avoid people under 18 seeing things they are not allowed to see.
I have to thank ulaB for a rational explanation of a topic that seems to have got everyone so excited that there's utter chaos on discussion threads.
But the issue, and I have raised it elsewhere as well, why should flickr hide behind laws? The laws exist and flickr, like a responsible international platform/corporate, has to comply.
Should the offended parties not be approaching their own democratically elected representatives in their respective parliaments to address the issue?
@flickr staff : they took measurements far behind what is required by German law (if it is anyhow)
Er! Any chance of switching the measuring tape?
Posted 60 months ago.
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Phoenix51_Gone Off To Be Resurrected edited this topic 60 months ago.
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[censored] lol!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Bree R edited this topic 60 months ago.
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phoenix, please read what the original poster in this thread says:
Talking about censorship in Germany (that's where I live, that's why I know about these things here): Looking around in this forum, it has been pointed out several times that the censorship Flickr currently does is by no means required in Germany. It also has been pointed out that there are other things about Flickr which could get you easily burnt when it comes to legal action in Germany (including the idea of having a website without an imprint or modifying TOS/EULA without noticing users).
German laws do by no means require what happened here nor are the measurements of flickr appropriate (or even effective) in any way. AND all this was done without as much as telling German customers what was happening, so obviously they thought they could get away with it with no one noticing. And the public reaction of Flickr and Yahoo is poor, to say the least.
edit: but it is of course so convenient to blame us so no one will have to bother with what has happened here and to assume we aer morons who live in a totalitarian system and deserve to be censored - hold the facts, please...
Posted 60 months ago.
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foodfreak.de edited this topic 60 months ago.
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phoenix51 and Bree R : wrong. Problem is, that everything for which a move by Yahoo! would be necessary isn't allowed following their TOS anyway! There's no law in Germany to protect anyone from content that is following the TOS of Yahoo!/flickr!
Posted 60 months ago.
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@ Bree R and @_mpd_
The recent Flickr censor policy has given them a BAD REPUTATION......the longer they continue this policy......the longer it will damage them.
This should'nt have happened......therefore it is a terrible CEO mistake.
Posted 60 months ago.
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