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maybe yor should rewind and start from the beginning?
Posted 60 months ago.
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@greyline: oh, no, that would be like watching all seasons of "lost" in a row. too much ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
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How much time left for the announcement?
Posted 60 months ago.
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Eneas plenty :)
Posted 60 months ago.
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Hmmm, no idea what they did exactly. Some of my contacts report that they are still censored, some say everything is like two weeks ago. Strange communication Stewart! ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
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*geees*: Stewart & Co. have to come up with a really good explanation why they weren't able to talk about it, after (if) this thing is resolved, to hold me here...
Posted 60 months ago.
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@benrobertsabq — Here is a list of currently approved age verfication systems in Germany:
www.kjm-online.de/public/kjm/index.php?show_1=91,85,56
I won't attempt to translate that, but they all involve an initial face-to-face identity check, and normally some kind of hardware dongle. Note, however, that these are only required for content that is "jugendgefährdend", i.e. hardcore porn, extreme violence, hatred. But I doubt that they would require all that fuss and then let providers get away with offering the same content through a .com site without any verification instead of .de.
There is another category "entwicklungsbeeinträchtigend" – which includes extraordinary sexual practices, sex in combination with violence, discriminating gender stereotypes, realistic violence in a positive context, etc. – that is also restricted, but for this category only a very basic age check (such as the date of birth from the user's account details) is required. The existence of two distinct categories is another indication that they really mean age verification for the "jugendgefährdend" stuff and are probably quite anal about it.
Everything else is perfectly fine for any age, including "tasteful" nudity.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Mr. Last Minute, I have yet to see any content on flickr that qualifies as 18+ under german law. As far as I can see, even though it is not addressed directly in the ToS, the staff seems to delete such images.
According to JuSchG §184 StGB, when providing content accessible for minors you are required to tag any 12+ content using the w3c PICS standard. There is no age verification required unless you also provide 18+ content ("hardcore" pornography or excessive violence). This could be achieved by automatically adding the needed PICS metadata to every photo flagged as moderate or restricted.
The only thing left is the ability to report 18+ content, nazi propaganda or hate speech (trans? "Volksverhetzung") and to remove or filter such content for any german user.
The first part is rather easy to implement and the second part is also almost done ("report abuse" link at the bottom of each site)
Posted 60 months ago.
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Drevor edited this topic 60 months ago.
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i think there is probably such content but it's probably hidden in various groups that you have to become a member of to see. Occasionally such content may be seen in recent uploads, if the member doesn't set it private during the upload. Flickr is pretty good at shutting down blatant porn peddlers (ie. spammers that don't care about exposing children to their content)
Posted 60 months ago.
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I have yet to see any content on flickr that qualifies as 18+ under german law. That's my impression, too. But then I haven't seen all the 500,000,000 photos here, and someone somewhere in this thread said that there actually is such content.
kjm-online doesn't seem to mention PICS - is their site outdated?
Posted 60 months ago.
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Mr. Last Minute Thanks for that information actually. It helps me understand a bit better. Even if I don't read German you took the time to outline some things for me.
So since Flickr has the potential to have the kind of content you list as restricted, and doesn't have an age verification system in place or any associated hardware etc, it would make sense for it to block the higher level of restricted content in Germany, since it does not comply.
But why block Moderate content?
Maybe since Flickr has no means to enforce the difference between "restricted" vs. "moderate" content other than reviewing every image to see if it is correctly categorized, it choose to block them rather than try to find staff enough to review every image ever uploaded. Given the sheer number of images already uploaded, and constantly being uploaded.
Flickr Staff have already said there was a direct connection between supporting the German language and blocking some content types for German users. Precisely what this connection is, we don't know? Unless you have more info there too... :)
So again, we don't have all the facts, but it seems like a fairly reasonable set of circumstances might exist for why Flickr are doing what they are doing.
Was it a bad choice? Absolutely.
Do we disagree with their reasoning? Undoubtedly.
Are there other ways they could have handled the issue that would have allowed German language support from a .com provider outside Germany? Likely there are.
But again I say we can't claim there's "No Reason" for what Flickr did. We may not like the reasons, but there are reasons, even if they suck.
I don't have the answers, but I choose to believe it was for some reason, not malice, and they are going to fix it.
Posted 60 months ago.
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There is no age verification required unless you also provide 18+ content ("hardcore" pornography or excessive violence). This could be achieved by automatically adding the needed PICS metadata to every photo flagged as moderate or restricted.
The only thing left is the ability to report 18+ content, nazi propaganda or hate speech (trans? "Volksverhetzung") and to remove or filter such content for any german user.
That's exactly the point. 41 pages of discussion and everybody but a few people seem to have overlooked the real problem flickr/yahoo has with German laws: They have no system to differentiate between "photos you would not show to grandma" and "Nazi propaganda". While the first is legal, but blocked for German users, the latter is illegal and still available in quantities ...
They don't say what they are working on, actually, so let's see if they at least try to solve their real problem by tomorrow.
Posted 60 months ago.
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just found this ...
I better don't translate :/ it looks like a hint to delete the account if not happy with the current situation -
incredible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail an Flickr:
Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,
ich habe mit Erstaunen zur Kenntnis genommen, dass Sie flickr für deutschsprachige Kunden zensieren ( www.flickr.com/groups/404938@N23/…).
Für dieses Vorgehen habe ich kein Verständnis und werde unter diesen Umständen in den nächsten Tagen zu einem anderem Fotodienst wechseln.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Nico Zorn
Die Antwort von Flickr:
vielen Dank für Ihre Nachricht an Yahoo! Deutschland. Wir haben eigentlich keine Lust, Ihnen das zu verraten… aber… natürlich können Sie Ihren Account jederzeit löschen. Hier ist ein Link: www.flickr.com/profile_delete.gne
Bei weiteren Fragen oder Problemen stehen wir Ihnen selbstverständlich gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ihr Yahoo! Customer Support
Yahoo! Deutschland
--------------------------------------------------
Original here: www.nicozorn.com/2007/06/18/flickr-dann-loesch-doch-deine...
Posted 60 months ago.
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can someone translate it?
Posted 60 months ago.
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@kaiuhlemeyer: look some pages back. it has already been translated.
www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/42597/236515/
Posted 60 months ago.
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Basically just a letter from a German user feeling disappointed and telling Flickr that he's going to change to another service provider.
The answer from Yahoo! (not Flickr) is
"thanks for notifying, we actually do not feel like telling you, but... you can delete your account anytime you want:
[link]"
seems to me like a bad tempered / funny customer support guy.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Robert k
Very funny [as your comment can't be serious].
Serious about what?
Its a percentage it doesn't tell whether there is 1,000,000 members or 100, only that the proportion of users using canon and nikon fell.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Lutz-R. Frank, we had that already a few pages ago (~35)
kaiuhlemeyer, rough translation: "why do you censor us?", "gtfo!"
Mr. Last Minute, thats what I was told by a friend of mine who is studying law atm. So, there is no guarantee that it is 100% correct even though he seemed quite certain. I can't reach him right now, so I went looking ... now, my head hurts >_>"
There seems to be no direct mention of PICS neither in JuSchG nor in JMStV. I've found several talks, presentations and interpretations of the above which do mention PICS and similar measures.
//edit links
www.jura.uni-saarland.de/projekte/Bibliothek/text.php?id=183
www.eulisp.uni-hannover.de/media/Abschlussarbeiten/miller...
odem.org/insert_coin/kontrolle/filterpics.html
www.hss.de/downloads/politische_studien_371.pdf
Unfortunately all those are just non-binding suggestions and interpretations of their respective authors. So, in a sense the flickr team was right to restrict us to kittens and flowers. horrible. well, maybe in 20 years from now we will have direct and intelligent regulations regarding the intertubes ...
Posted 60 months ago.
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Drevor edited this topic 60 months ago.
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It is unbelievably. I dont understand this policy. I cant access the very stylish, of course erotic photos of a friend of mine, who is putting them on flickr in France. I am quite above the legal age of 18 to be allowed by the German government to see erotic stuff. What the fuck is going on here? It is really hard to stay with flickr, after being patronized by a company.
Posted 60 months ago.
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waiting, waiting, waiting ...
Posted 60 months ago.
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jfvo why wait,
ipernity is right there!
www.ipernity.com/blog/team/11917?lg=en
Posted 60 months ago.
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hierwirdzensiert! edited this topic 60 months ago.
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@Drevor
Mr. Last Minute, I have yet to see any content on flickr that qualifies as 18+ under german law. As far as I can see, even though it is not addressed directly in the ToS, the staff seems to delete such images.
most of them are either "private" (visible only if you belong to the groups where they have been posted or if you are in the friends contacts of the poster), or "restricted".
Posted 60 months ago.
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jfvo... exactly...
hierserdzensiert?: there's flickr and there's the "other sites."
really, that's how it breaks down. be it ever so imperfect, there's no place like flickr. :D
Posted 60 months ago.
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Whoops... Sorry, I bumped this thread with a cart of beers... ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
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It's not exactly Help Forum in this thread - it is more like a self-help or help yourself forum...
Posted 60 months ago.
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Silence of the Lambs.... I'm silently going mad... here...
Posted 60 months ago.
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Heh, the more I read this thread, the more I think that after years I can say "I was there!" :-)
Sorry for being slightly off-topic.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Drevor — Thanks for the research. An interesting peculiarity (of which I wasn't aware before) is that media issues are governed by state law, not by federal law. Without the JMStV we could even face different regulations in different parts of Germany. I wonder how they would have handled that :-)
Posted 60 months ago.
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The biggest problem regarding this topic at all is the missing communication with the community. If people knew that this filtering is going to happen and why the screams wouldn't be as loud as now. In addition they should've posted a note that this is a quick fix and they are working on a more satisfying solution - perhaps even what they are planning to do or what options they have.
I'm not even sure if all the fuzz is about the child protection law. The "Forenhaftung" (dunno how to translate that) laws in Germany are quite unclear. German courts have different views on who is responsible for the content on a website.
This is not about the content itself, it is about who is responsible for it. Is it the user who uploaded it or is it the website owner who needs to make sure nothing bad can be done? Is it enough for the website owner to react if someone tells him "Hey, user XY is doing nasty stuff." or does he have to make it impossible to do the nasty staff at all.
Posted 60 months ago.
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CYA
Posted 60 months ago.
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Ipernity.com has just announced this:
Automatically import photos from flickr (to iPernity)
Not only original photo is imported, but also:
title and description
private/public sharing option
latitude and longitude
the first 20 tags
albums list (coming soon...)
right not it works only for one photo at a time.
more infos, help and download script here.
also, Portable Flicka might be useful to download entire sets or photostreams.
i did not try any of those yet.
Posted 60 months ago.
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loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
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It is possible that switching off "unsafe" pictures for german speaking users was a result of maybe misinterpretating the german laws for youth protection, applying maybe american moral standarts to german law and not understanding what kind of content could cause legal problems in germany. All this has been stated here before, and we are all curious about the solution flichr/yahoo will come up with. It’s obvious that the safe/moderate/restricted rating has no relevance to this whatsoever (so why did they use this in the first place? Maybe it seemed an easy, cheap way around age verification and employing more people to check some of the uploads...).
BUT "cleaning" the explore page of protest pictures
www.flickr.com/groups/againstcensorship/discuss/721576003...
, – many of these were fotos, not text, as the official statement said – or the strange fact that users with the word "censored" in their nicks seem hard to search
www.flickr.com/groups/againstcensorship/discuss/721576003...
are different: This is not a mistake, they advertantly use the technical possibilities of the system to make people not express an uncomfortable opinion. True censorship.
Can we still trust this company? Do we still want to be part of this?
It will never be the same…
Posted 60 months ago.
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be°mo edited this topic 60 months ago.
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the lost innocence
Posted 60 months ago.
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@bettermo:
Can we still trust this company? Do we still want to be part of this?
for me it all boils down to this: they are telling us, that they can't talk about
the ongoing process, because of some (who knows what) reason that would make it harder to find a solution.
ok, i can wait a while, but... when this thing is resolved (and i still want to believe that it will be), flickr-staff has some explaining to do, as to why they weren't able to speak out freely during this time. if this is not convincing, i'm gone for good, no matter what the solution will be.
for me it's even more about the lack of information, than about the censorship.
edit: typo
Posted 60 months ago.
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Lars Pohlmann edited this topic 60 months ago.
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@malanalars, that's exactly what I'm thinking about Flickr and trust at the moment.
Posted 60 months ago.
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ulaB says: "... or does he have to make it impossible to do the nasty staff at all."
This is a point that makes me worried a lot. I haven't been a Flickr user yet although I have had a german Yahoo! ID for a long time as a member of some Yahoo! groups. I've come to this thread by reading the first Spiegel article about censorship at Flickr (I'm a German living in Germany, and currently censored).
It seems that we here have a general move from "See, law says this and that is forbidden (for whatever good or weak reason), and if you don't comply you will go to jail." to "Well, people seem to want to do this and that, how can we bar them from that?"
This attitude undermines the presumption of innocence that also German law is based on and turns us into minors not responsible for ourselves. As a free person I want to proudly comply to the law as my own decision, not because I'm just blocked in multiple ways to do anything else.
This is for sure something we should tell our appropriate Bundestag representative. It is not just about the internet but also about fingerprints and such in passports, CCTV systems at railway stations and everything similar.
It just makes me worried. Where are we going? This Flickr censorship is just a very small brick within the wall that is growing in front of us.
Just my 2c ($ or €, at your choice).
Posted 60 months ago.
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flickr is just a piece of yahoo now.
not those cool community thingy anymore.
yahoo shareholders refuse to speak up against cesorship lately and they have helped throwing bloggers that blogged for freedom of expression into jail in china.
And remember last time with Rebekka the first flickr "incident"?
So EVERYBODY that pays for flickr is guilty by association and should be ashamed too In my unimportant personal opinion.
Posted 60 months ago.
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This all comes down to a point whether we can trust them anymore... They are still toying with Explore... and also it is not clear who actually makes decisions on Flickr - Flickr staff or someone higher at Yahoo... or, as someone misspelled it - Yooha (I liked it :):) )
Posted 60 months ago.
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That's the point. Even if we still trust Stewart and the flickr staff, I strongly get the impression that they are no longer in control.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@ hierwirdzensiert? - I have a link to an article about a woman named Rebecca Gudleifsdóttir on page 38 in this thread...
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6665723.stm
Is she the one you are talking about ?
Posted 60 months ago.
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ja
Posted 60 months ago.
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O'kay :)
Posted 60 months ago.
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In my unimportant personal opinion.
Got that right.
Posted 60 months ago.
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"So EVERYBODY that pays for flickr is guilty by association "
Oh boy, you're really reaching now! That is bullsh*t of the purest ray serene. Can we stop with the broadshot generalisations, please? It's not helping.
Oh yeah -I'm PAID through January of 2009. Fire away.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Two minor points, while we are bored for the rest of the 24 hours:
* Someone said, Google did better. I remember, when google introduced image search, the English language user interface had the option to disabled "save search", while the German interface didn't - it was "save search" always.
* Many people proudly said, that Germany isn't that uptight with nudity or sexuality as the US is. While this might be true for the general population, it might be interesting to some, that the EU law is more and more adopting to US morality laws and that the German government is trying to implement even more restrictive laws. If you speak German, you might want to have a look at schutzalter.twoday.net/ for some background. Currently, freedom and civil rights are under severe attack in multiple areas in Germany.
Donald
Posted 60 months ago.
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donald: something I mentioned in another thread: Google imagesearch is based on tags, not filter levels. So that could give them a much finer level of control in different municipalities over what's allowed or not. They could block images with certain tags from results in Germany alone, for instance. Or China. Not just offensive stuff either, but specific stuff that country doesn't want its people to see.
Kinda more insidious, but less of the baby with the bathwater that we're dealing with here.
Posted 60 months ago.
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yahoo shareholders have helped throwing bloggers that blogged for freedom of expression into jail in china.
Wow, that's really something, isn't it?! That just makes me speechless!!!!!
(even if it probably can't be proved)
I guess Terry Semel (former chief executive of yahoo) couldn't stand the scheming in his own company anymore...
Posted 60 months ago.
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Yves. edited this topic 60 months ago.
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It looks like explore has been completely cleaned out for censorship protest images!
Historically this event does not exist as far as explore is concerned!
What do we call organizations who manipulate history to such a degree?
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Erling Steen
History is always written by the victor.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Nope... that's a very common misconception!
edited to make sound more like English
Posted 60 months ago.
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Erling Steen edited this topic 60 months ago.
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The Searcher: Google didn't and doesn't don't block images specifically for Germany (like CensR is trying to do). You get exactly the same search results with Google images. It was just that the modification of "save search" was unavailable in the German language interface for some time. Of course, Google doesn't require some age verification from you. You don't need to be registered or logged in to modify "savesearch" for your searches.
And, agreed, it was another issue. I just searched for "hardcore". They don't seem to have a big problem with German law ;-). Hear me, FlickR ?
Posted 60 months ago.
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 "Nope... thats a very common misunderstanding!"
 Another very common misunderstanding appears to be this:
"It looks like explore has been completely cleaned out for censorship protest images!
Historically this event does not exist as far as explore is concerned!
What do we call organizations who manipulate history to such a degree? "
It's obviously an allegation that is going to be repeated over and over again because people have dug their heels in but it's been answered several times already... like here for example.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Dave: oppressive regimes always come up with an explanation.... the fact remains: This event does not exist on explore!
And explore is the "Facade" right?
Posted 60 months ago.
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bettermo behind barriers says: This is not a mistake, they advertantly use the technical possibilities of the system to make people not express an uncomfortable opinion. True censorship.
Does it seem odd that Flickr is censoring protest photos, individual protesters and all of Germany, but not this well-publicized, media-linked thread? That's not very effective censorship. I suppose it's possible they're just not very good at it.
Posted 60 months ago.
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How many people do you think want to start to read 41 pages of thread? Who writes here are always the same members, we just work in shift depending of our time zone. How long do you think this thread will be visible on the first page of the forum? Why do you think it was promoted to hot topic only for few hours some days ago?
THEY are waiting, not us.
Posted 60 months ago.
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You can't really use Explore to judge anything. It's not a Flickr Facade so much as it's a relatively easy way for newcomers to, wait for it, Explore Flickr. It doesn't measure anything of any importance to anything except the Magic Donkey. That it's scrubbed of overt attempts at "gaming" isn't censorship so much as an attempt to keep the feature implementation working as intended.
Pierre
Posted 60 months ago.
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phoneyman: Exactly...To make it work as intended!
Posted 60 months ago.
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And like anyone actually looks at the previous day's explore, let alone from few weeks or months back. Explore for any particular day changes, and it's not just protest images that drop out. My last two images dropped out of explore. I know people who have had several images in top 3 of explore drop out. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. It's just a place to go "explore" photographs that may or may not be interesting on that day. Some people read too much into things when censorship issues come up.
Posted 60 months ago.
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They are not doing full blown censorship because they can't - that matter would end up in court... they are just been careful in how they doing it... and YES, Explore is being censored ...they admitted it (Stewart's earlier message)...
Posted 60 months ago.
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no he didn't admit it. He actually said they promoted the protest images to explore. It's exactly the opposite.
Posted 60 months ago.
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They can't censor everything. Whatever they do now, the message is public already and the well-earned scar will stay for a long time. At least I hope so.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTh0JhzWssw
Donald
Posted 60 months ago.
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Explore isn't intended to be anything except another way to find images on Flickr. Yes there is criteria to get there, but that criteria is constantly evolving. As was mentioned before images were deliberately left on Explore even though they wouldn't normally be shown there - screenshots, etc.
No matter how remiss I believe Flickr staff have been in their communications on this issue they haven't been trying to stop anyone from talking about it.
Pierre
Posted 60 months ago.
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erling: Why is Explore the bell weather for visibility? Those first few days my contacts pages were full of protest images. That's something I see much more than the Explore pages (and now that I don't see those images anymore, does that mean that my contacts are self-censoring? Or maybe the popularity of the whole thing just wore off for them, too?)
Explore=Photos. The ginormous bulk of the protest images were simply not photos. I've seen lots of protest images that are visual, actual photos, but the average joe isn't going to realize it's actually a protest image unless they came from the protest groups and photo page first. You included.
Basically Flickr could turn its background a light hazel, and someone will be there to charge "censorship". Apparently it doesn't have to make much sense anymore. just be loud.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Pierre: I wanted to provoke a little! I don't like whats going on, there is a very dubious pattern to it. And its not only Flick!
btw. I don't call it Flick, I call it Yahoo!
Posted 60 months ago.
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Also Steward already implied, that the "Switch-off" function is not beeing restored, and that the affected users won´t be able to see all the photos as before the incident.
Saying: "We hope to have an announcement within 24 hours that (most) people will be happ(ier) with." (So a handcuffed person becomes happier by been a little less hard handcuffed, but quit not as happy as a free person would be.)
It also implies, that the small improvement is addressed towards the German users, while the situation for the affected Asian users will mostly or completely stay the same. Not only because they (in opposite to the German users) have laws that do request a censorship, but also because a aim on the Asian market does require a more restrictive approach to meet the interests of the governments and also the investors.
Of course these are wild guesses, but they aren´t so fare from what happened in the past. So let´s wait and see if the oracle is right ;-)
Posted 60 months ago.
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Proggie - I never heard that one, can you post a link to it (about Flickr promoting anti-censorship pictures???) please...
Posted 60 months ago.
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And another quick update: I was a little too aggressive with my "24 hour" estimate late last night/early this morning, but only a little bit. It will be morning California time (UTC-8; so more like 30 hours from the last time I posted). Our apologies again, but sometimes timezone differences work against us.
Again, we are giving this our full attention and working as quickly as possible to offer a solution. For those of you are being patient: thank you, we really appreciate it. For those of you who are not being patient: For those of you who are not being patient: thank you for not coming to our homes with pitchforks (yet) - we appreciate that as well.
Auf Deutsch!
www.flickr.com/help/forum/de-de/42662/#reply239078
Posted 60 months ago.
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Stewart (staff) edited this topic 60 months ago.
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Just clocking on. Nothing to add.
Posted 60 months ago.
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>thank you for not coming to our homes with pitchforks (yet) - we appreciate that as well.
Wow, that´s the way to ruin a company completely!
Posted 60 months ago.
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"Dave: oppressive regimes always come up with an explanation.... the fact remains: This event does not exist on explore!"
As I said before, this has already been asked. I even gave you a link to a previous discussion on the subject but you obviously haven't read it. Saying "this event doesn't exist on explore" is only significant if you think Explore is meant to be some kind of historic document... and it isn't.
Explore is constantly changing all the time... today's list, yesterday's list and all the others. It never gets nailed down as a final, never to be altered document. An event existing in Explore doesn't make it so.
Repeating the word 'censor' constantly and ascribing anything that happens here to some malign puppetry by the staff achieves nothing except to stir people up, raise passions and entrench opinions.
If you've already decided that flickr are evil censors then I really don't understand the point in hanging around to see if they fix it or not. If I thought that's what they were I'd have left already. (I hear ipernity is lovely... zooomr's too buggy for me.)
Why wait to see what fix they come up with if you think they're evil? Or do you want to see the fix and then claim people power... the force of the people made them sort it out... even though they've said they're not happy with this situation either and that they're trying to affect a solution?
If/when this is resolved it won't have been hastened any by all of the screaming and shouting in this forum. That will have achieved nothing but it will have created much bad blood.
Posted 60 months ago.
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speaking for myself; I only use a pitchfork in the garden
Posted 60 months ago.
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For Proggie -
Stewart [Staff] says:
Yep - we started getting complaints from people who actually want to see photographs and since that's what the feature is for, we've removed things that aren't photos. This is a return what we normally do, by the way: we temporarily stopped so people could let off steam, but it's not fair to disrupt others' experience of Flickr to get a point across.
Plainly, not all "traces" of the protest are gone. Your own streams are fair game (and, e.g., I'm happy to leave people's protest pics in comments on my stream), plenty of groups have been created, there's plenty of mainstream press and blogging going on, and there is an intensely active thread in these very forums, which is covering this same topic, starting at this point in the thread.
Source: www.flickr.com/help/forum/42939/
Where do you see a Promotion thingy ???
Posted 60 months ago.
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Wise words, Dave Gorman. Wise words.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Yes, me too (use it in a garden)... but I live not far from Yahoo (Yooha)... so it's tempting...
Posted 60 months ago.
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Stewart,
I am glad you are doing all you can, just do not forgot that there are others other than Germany that need to have this resolved.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Dave : You shovel a lot into my shoes, but okay... guess I asked for it
Posted 60 months ago.
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 Where do you see a Promotion thingy ???
In the bit where he says, "we temporarily stopped so people could let off steam"
If the algorithm had been left untouched, most of those protest pictures would never have made Explore in the first place. As it is, they promoted those images, by switching off whatever part of the algorithm would have spotted the gaming type of behaviour and then switched it on again a couple of days later.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@Erling Steen me too ;) but why "(yet)"? before their next announcement?
Posted 60 months ago.
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As it is, they promoted those images, by switching off whatever part of the algorithm would have spotted the gaming type of behaviour and then switched it on again a couple of days later.
must be hell of a algorithm that can make a difference between a photo and a photo with some text in it.
Sounds more like " we where overrun by the protest pictures, but now we are kicking the bad stuff by hand. (it´s only 500 photos anyways - i could do that alone in 5 minutes)
Posted 60 months ago.
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It's about the behaviour around a photo Multitude not the presence of text.
But if you insist on repeating the same allegation that has already been made on this page, then we'll only go round in circles so rather than re-typing the response I'll just direct you to my earlier post on the matter.
Posted 60 months ago.
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Dave Gorman edited this topic 60 months ago.
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>It's about the behaviour around a photo Multitude not the presence of text.
I know but a photo with 400 views, 40 faves and 50 comments should be in explore with a high likeliness - and there are hundereds of these photos.
ps.: it´s no porblem to get a picture into explore by using the award groups,. I tried it myself several times, before i got bored of these groups.
Posted 60 months ago.
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exactly... one hell of an algorithm (two legged one)...
Posted 60 months ago.
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>But if you insist on repeating the same allegation that has already been made
i answered with a "allegation that has already been made" to your "allegation that has already been made". So where is the difference?
besides me being a smart ass and you being a meta-smart-ass ;-) (ups, now i´m a meta-smart-ass to. We are even again!)
Posted 60 months ago.
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Multitude edited this topic 60 months ago.
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With the protest photos there was a lot of behaviour like: You visit my photo leave a favorite and a comment, I make a return visit to your photo leave a favorite and a comment there too. Normally this decreases interestingness a lot. For two days those checks where disabled and helped to create explore pages consisting of more than 50% protest photos.
Posted 60 months ago.
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pity I didn't make a mosaic ...
Posted 60 months ago.
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 "I know but a photo with 400 views, 40 faves and 50 comments should be in explore with a high likeliness - and there are hundereds of these photos."
Not necessarily. Not if all of those 40 faves come from the same people who've also all faved and commented on 200 other pictures, say. Especially if all of the photographers were also favouriting all of the other photos involved. That might create the impression that there was some block-voting going on and causing the images to be marked down. I expect the algorithm looks for favourites coming from diverse sources because otherwise, 100 people (or 1000, or 10,000) who were very, very interested in 50 photos could effectively game Explore and that wouldn't be a very good guide as to what millions of flickr users find interesting in the broader scheme of things.
Posted 60 months ago.
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ellie 6 says:
exactly... one hell of an algorithm (two legged one)...
Andreas Helke says:
With the protest photos there was a lot of behaviour like: You visit my photo leave a favorite and a comment, I make a return visit to your photo leave a favorite and a comment there too. Normally this decreases interestingness a lot. For two days those checks where disabled and helped to create explore pages consisting of more than 50% protest photos.
@ellie: Although I suspect you refuse to accept this, as you seem so hellbent on attributing evil intent to Flickr staff all the time.
Posted 60 months ago.
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>Normally this decreases interestingness a lot.
That´s what i heard even before the protests and yet about 90% of the Explore photos are stuffed with awards
Posted 60 months ago.
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they probably removed some manually (ie ones that were not photos), but that STILL isn't censorship, as they do that regularly anyway. Other images fell out of explore on their own once the algorithm was restored to "normal".
Posted 60 months ago.
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>but that STILL isn't censorship
for the recored: I didn´t say it is. (at least regarding to the non-photos)
Posted 60 months ago.
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And lets not forget the broader issue that really the way Explore is supposed to work these images should not be in there. So even if they had people manually filtering out the protest art, they would be right to have done so.
It was an attempted hijack of a central Flickr function, and the fact that they allowed this to happen at all for almost two days is a sign of goodwill.
I don't understand how anyone can view it otherwise, unless they think paying 24 bucks entitles them to take over central functions of Flickr for voicing their opinions.
Posted 60 months ago.
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@view-askew - haha... you can think whatever you want ...I'm not making anybody to change their opinion...
Proggie - yes, some pictures probably were removed manually... I still disagree with the staff you said, but you can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine...
Posted 60 months ago.
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>he way Explore is supposed to work these images should not be in there.
That´s a wrong assumption. A photo of a protest text written on a body or a photo of a protest badge printed out, is a photo an belongs in explore if it meets the conditions
Posted 60 months ago.
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And what, prey, are those conditions?
Posted 60 months ago.
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ellie 6 says:
@view-askew - haha... you can think whatever you want ...I'm not making anybody to change their opinion...
Why thank you. I didn't say you were trying to change anyone's opinion either; it was simply an observation. You've obviously made up your mind and no matter what staff say you're not changing it.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I have been around long enough to understand the workings of explore.
The protest images should have been allowed to run their course, photos or not, because they write history.
I do understand that Flick staff sits in a very hot chair these days, but that's not a reason not to be proud of this community including the protesters.
Posted 60 months ago.
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I'm just waiting for the protests when the fix is not perfect.
Posted 60 months ago.
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The protest images should have been allowed to run their course, photos or not, because they write history.
So what you are saying here is that you think Explore should be open for screenshots, graphics and other non-photography?
Posted 60 months ago.
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Hi Stewart,
is my comment killed?
Posted 60 months ago.
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@ Multitude - it's almost pointless to discuss this issue with people who haven't experienced it... They will never understand it...
Me and some of my friends have and our images are not text at all and yes, it was in Explore and then it was gone without a trace with gazillion of favorites, views and invites to invite only groups... and it doesn't even appear in Scout as a drop out - all my others (dropped out) are in a Scout ... Cheers :)
Posted 60 months ago.
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