|
|
@venture-smith Yes, it's a corporate thing.
But german laws do not apply to Switzerland, Austria and Lichtenstein, countries which were also affected by the sudden blocking of images.
It is not as simple as you are saying.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Walwyn, and this is relevant how? Nobody is denying that we have strict laws regarding the protection of minors. However, none of these necessitate the actions of Flickr. In fact, community moderation would not protect them against charges if any were brought against them.
The reasons Heather and Yahoo have given are nothing but FUD and CYA and an attempt to divide the Flickr community. Sadly, it's working.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Walwyn - it's called lobbying. Businesses work with governnment on many things that citizens aren't willing to fight for.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Walwyn
1. this is not about pornography
2. the flickr censorship does not apply to the law
3. the flickr censorship doesn´t help flickr applying to the law
4. flickr could still be sued for pornography, unless they make a age verification
5. there are lots of nazi stuff on flickr that seems not to be censored by flickr staff
6. you can still, child or not, any time join a adult group on flickr and see all the nude stuff if you want.
7. you can still, child or not, any time join a gore group on flickr and see all the stuff there.
What flickr did, does in NO WAY apply to any rules in the German law.
What flickr did, does BRAKE German law instead
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
5. there are lots of nazi stuff on flickr that seems not to be censored by flickr staff
Multitude:
As I pointed out above, with an example, they take notice when it's brought to their attention. Do you expect them to do anything more?
Ah - and to have a Pro account on Flickr, you need to be only 13 years old. So you can have access to adult groups unless there's some independent age verification.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
 helter-skelter What are you like 60 years old, shills LOL thats good. Will somebody please update LEO. shills OMG LOL shills.
 _tina I will have to ask my fiancee since she is Austrian and is living there at the moment. But thanks for that information. Because if it is affecting users in countries that are not coverd by the laws, then flickr is in the wrong. (I bet you thought you never hear a shill say that LOL)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Ah - and to have a Pro account on Flickr, you need to be only 13 years old. So you can have access to adult groups unless there's some independent age verification.
That´s what i said...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Walwyn Your source talks about issues that are ages old.
Germany has laws that require website operators to have "a barrier" in place that protects minors from seeing hard core pornography. There are systems approved by the regulating commission that fulfill this purpose. German website operators (and TV stations) have been operating under this law for several years now. This law does not pose an unsurmountable hurdle.
Flickr went into Germany without a plan how to comply with local laws, that is neither Germany's fault nor the fault of the German customers.
Their current measures do no protect Flickr from the consequences of this law since any minor can set up a fake foreign account and the content classification as operated by the users is incomplete anyway.
All their actions that happened after Heather's last statement (change of this topic's status, Yahoo Germany press release, cleansing of Explore) indicate that they now want to brush the issue under the carpet.
The references to other issues like the "Forenurteil" etc. can hardly be the motivation for these actions since they do not imply jail time and they would require flickr to moderate every bit of content on this site, not just pictures that are flagged in a certain way.
Jim Skea Moderation is insufficient. The law was designed around providers that publish their own (already classified) content.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
i have one important question:
how-much hard-core pornography is public and flagged "moderate" on flickr?
my guess is: almost none, because according to the flicker TOS, hard-core pornography must be made private or flagged "restricted", not "moderate" - so if there is any hard-core pornography that is not flagged "restricted", it should be removed or re-flagged by flickr staff of my the owner, or made private.
so basically blocking "moderate" photos is not blocking ANY hard-core pornography. it merely blocks beach photos, top-less women, artistic nudes, photos of the "birth of venus" and other similarly harmless photos and yummy delicacies. although a number of more than 68,000 harmless nude photos are still visible today by german users because they are (still) flagged as "safe".
i can't see how those "moderate" photos could cause any problem according to german laws having to do with pornography.
so i think that the first sensible step that flickr should take is to un-block "moderate" photos in germany.
then, regarding "restricted" photos (including hard-core pornography), flickr should implement age verification if this is required by german law.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
venture-smith Way to keep the discussion on topic. Call it shills, payola, whatever you want, you know what I'm talking about.
At least to _tina you aknowledge that Yahoo is wronging its users (Austrian users that is). From there it's only a small step to realize that German and all the other Flickr users are wronged, too, by the block in the first place and even more so by the abysmal reaction to the "situation".
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
>so i think that the first sensible step that flickr should take is to un-block "moderate" photos in germany.
That would ease a lot of trouble :-)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
5. there are lots of nazi stuff on flickr that seems not to be censored by flickr staff
nazi stuff issue is completement different from pornography. there is indeed a lot of nazi-related photos on flickr (nazi insignia, photos of american nazi party conventions, etc), but flickr has never told their members that nazi-related content had to be flagged moderate or restricted, because such content is perfectly legal in the US, where there is no problem with public display of photos of nazi stuff (including nazi conventions held in the US).
so unless flickr makes a special "filter category" for nazi stuff (or forces this content to be "restricted", as they do for dead dogs), it will stay "safe" and visible in germany.
6. you can still, child or not, any time join a adult group on flickr and see all the nude stuff if you want.
7. you can still, child or not, any time join a gore group on flickr and see all the stuff there.
no, all those groups are marked "18-year+", so they can only be accessed if your account indicates that you are 18-year or older.
this gets back to the question of age verification.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
flickr has never told their members that nazi-related content had to be flagged moderate or restricted, because such content is perfectly legal in the US,
Well, that's not quite true. Here's the official definition of "moderate" by Flickr (with my emphasis) taken from the help pages.
Moderate - If you're not sure whether your content is suitable for a global, public audience but you think that it doesn't need to be restricted per se, this category is for you
Since National Socialist symbols are not suitable for a global public audience, but many would believe that this "doesn't need to be restricted per se" Flickr are, effectively, telling these members that this should be flagged moderate.
Of course there's still the question of what to do when members don't do that (deliberately, or by ignorance of the definition). And also what punishments Flickr staff might be subject to
(a) if they receive word about such content and take no action or
(b) don't take action even if such content has not been explicitly brought to their attention
[edit: to italicise the quote from Flickr's pages]
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Jim Skea edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
>so unless flickr makes a special "filter category" for nazi stuff (or forces this content to be "restricted", as they do for dead dogs), it will stay "safe" and visible in germany.
Flickr said that they are afraid of the German law. The German law forbids to post nazi stuff on the internet.
>this gets back to the question of age verification.
Yes it does. One way or the other flickr germany needs a age verification. And if they have one than the censorship is no use anymore.
@Flickr
If it is about the money, raise the fee by 50% and dump the stupid censorship!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Multitude edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
loupiote (Old Skool) I agree regarding the moderate category. It would be a little less inconsistent if they had left that accessible.
The age verification would at least allow German users access without worsening the situation of the flickr staff. But it does not resolve the problems that exists right now (even with the restrictions in place) -- minors can access via foreign yahoo accounts and flagging by users is unreliable.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Remember the flickr inspector link ? nilswindisch.de/flickrtools/?/inspector/
the one which shows you data about your pictures and Explore... It's not available and says -
nils k. windisch
i will relaunch the flickr tools some day.
I wonder what is going on there ...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Jim Skea It is completely impossible for a user, even with the best intentions, to assess what is suitable for a global audience.
F.e. Many Vietnamese would never assume that loupiote's culinary explorations would offend anyone.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I'm on board about this being a major fuck up.
I've lived in Germany, loved the people, and the beer.
And cheese. Definitely the cheese. With beer.
Yeah.
*shakes head vigorously*
Now what was I on about? Oh, yeah.
Protest is a good thing when enacted in a constructive manner, which some of what has transpired the past few days has been. There has been solidarity and some truly creative methods of making it known that something wrong was taking place, and that it needed correcting.
The so-called "cleansing" (there's a loaded term for you) of explore is nothing more than Flickr returning to enforcing rules it has been enforcing for a very long time, with the exception of about 24-48 hours when the storm first broke and they let it go so people could express their outrage and unhappiness with what is truly an unfair situation.
This has occurred in the past - a storm of some sort breaks over Flickr, they let the venting carry on for a bit even when individuals are knowingly violating the TOS, then they get "back to normal" by enforcing the rules, deleting duplicate threads, and so on. Nothing new nor particularly nefarious with that, IMO.
But I ask those of you who are stuck in the middle of this to give them a little bit of time to try and make it right. In the past Flickr has made wrongs right, apologized for true mistakes (Rebekka), yet sometimes been a little too slow to communicate with those of us who make the service run (i.e., provide content that draws in other users - not speaking specifically of my own pathetic stream), but they usually wind up getting it right.
It is painfully clear to me after being here for more than three years that something went wrong in their negotiations and implementation of the localization - what, we do not exactly still know, Heather's cryptic references to German age verification standards notwithstanding. That they have remained silent is, to me, a sign that they are working on trying to get this to work better for those who are now partially blacked out. Otherwise, they would simply announce that this is how it will be for the longer term, oh well, and move on.
I don't believe that is what has happened yet.
All of my experience here tells me this was not an intentional, desired outcome, and the tortured responses form Staff (parsing their language is a painful exercise in itself) make it clear they are absolutely not free to discuss this in public *right now*.
So yes, find creative ways to protest. If you want to remain visible to others, don't mark what ought to be restricted content as "Safe" and then have your entire stream hidden - it defeats the purpose of protest and makes you essentially invisible.
And by all means, keep this thread alive - I doubt very much it will suddenly get locked with no further explanation from Flickr regarding the blocking that is happening.
This is my last post in this thread unless I see it needs a bump in the coming days (I doubt very much my services will be required to keep it running), and I hope all of you will hang in until we get definitive word about what is happening, and whether German users and those in the other Yahoo.de covered countries will receive proper redress and restored choice.
Peace and good luck to all.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Jim Skea
regarding "global public audience", yes, i agree with you, but then all photos of women with nudes arms, shorts or miniskirts are really not suitable in fundamentalist muslim countries like United Arab Emirates or Iran (where flickr is blocked anyway!).
so should all those photos be flagged "moderate", leaving only kitten, landscape, dressed men and covered women in the "safe" category?
F.e. Many Vietnamese would never assume that loupiote's culinary explorations would offend anyone.
definitely. but they created quite a fuss when i posted them on flickr. my account was threatened to be cancelled!
cultural globalization does not really work well...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@ellie 6: Nils' site has been down since prior to this whole thing blowing up. I hope he brings it back.
OK, so the above was not my last post.
Apologies.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
mruck77: It is completely impossible for a user, even with the best intentions, to assess what is suitable for a global audience.
That may well be true.
But the subject that was brought up was specifically National Socialist symbols (important in the German context). Personally I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of Flickr users would not see that these could be offensive to a sizeable part of their global audience.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@ fallsroad - thank you for the info, I was wondering ... good to know he is not shot down...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Personally I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of Flickr users would not see that these could be offensive to a sizeable part of their global audience.
a vast majority of flickr users are american, and americans don't see those nazi symbols are particularly offensive, and they consider WWII to be far away in space and time and mostly something movie-related, unfortunately. remember that the nazi party is still legal in the US.
i think many americans find the Ku Klux Klan (also still legal) more offensive, which caused me a few problems when i posted my photos of the Semana Santa (Holy Week) in Sevilla.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
>remember that the nazi party is legal in the US.
LOL - Are they aware that Hitler would have a-bombed them if he could?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Multitude edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
loupiote,
the problem is not whether Americans or anyone else for that matter, personally feels that they're offensive but, again, in the careful wording of the Flickr explanation about filters whether your content is suitable for a global, public audience.
I agree that raises questions about images which most of us would regard as harmless but whichh would not be considered suitable for viewing in, say, fundamentalist muslim countries. But that's why Flickr staff are there to occasionally point out where they think we've crossed the line, so that we're given the opportunity to classify our photostream in accordance with their interpretation of the guidelines.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Jim Skea The whole point is that if Flickr wants people to classify for compliance with laws then they have to be specific what criteria have to be applied.
Regarding Nazi symbols see this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5275866.stm
Keep in mind that school curricula worldwide vary a lot. Also people have different access to education.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
the problem is not whether Americans or anyone else for that matter, personally feels that they're offensive but, again, in the careful wording of the Flickr explanation about filters whether your content is suitable for a global, public audience.
but in many case, people don't really know. they just apply they local standards, because they don't really know what the standards are in other countries or cultures.
for example, i was told that a roasted (or not yet roasted) piglet could be considered very offensive by vegetarian people. there are lots of vegetarian people in the world, so should those be marked "moderate"?
and what about all those photos of human fetuses (two-headed or not) in jars, that are commonly displayed in museums over the world? museums are public display that are ok, still apparently those photos are disturbing to some people. how should they be flagged?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Flickr/Yahoo! has perceived a risk.
They have reacted (perhaps overreacted) to that risk.
There is enough information around to suggest that the perception has at least some basis in reality.
And they are faced with demands that, notwithstanding advice they have presumably received, they take the risk.
It is very easy to sit on the sidelines and ask other people to take risks on your behalf. Will any of you jump in and take the risk for Flickr/Yahoo!? A while back I suggested that the noisy ones agree to pay whatever fines, penalties or financial loss suffered by Flickr/Yahoo! if they reverse their actions. No one seemed very keen.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
We haven't been posting since we don't have any substantive to announce or anything new to say at this point. We could post periodically to say "nothing more to add", but I doubt that would help much. Because things have slowed down for the weekend both here and in Europe, I doubt we'll have anything new to say in the next few days, but we will eventually. At that point we will probably make a new official thread and just link to this one for the context since it is a lot to read.
We apologize that this happened in the first place, and we'd like to have more to say: there's almost nothing in the world that I'd enjoy doing less than deciding what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at, but chief among them is arguing about what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at. If there was something we could do right now, we would do it -- there are a pile of small and large features we want to add to Flickr in the next six months and I'd much rather be working on those (luckily the team is big enough that most people can keep working, though it is distracting for everyone). So, in the meantime, we're still reading and listening - we just can't move the conversation along from our end.
(And thanks, fallsroad.)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Stewart (staff) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
[edit]
the posting was removed so my response is obsolete...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Multitude edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@Stewart
chief among them is arguing about what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at.
grown-up Germans are allowed to look at about anything they want to look at, i guess?
the question is more, what people are allowed to show publicly in germany, isn't it?
e.g. nazi propaganda, you cannot (although there is plenty in the safe area of flickr). but i doubt there are laws forbidding german people to look at it, if it is showed to them.
i don't think there is any law that makes it illegal to show top-less women to grown-up (even not yet grown-up) german people. i.e. there is no reason to block "moderate" content in germany. since you have been in europe, you certainely know that part, you've seen "moderate" photos on buses and billboards all over. if there was such a law, they'd have to put the entire country in jail!
"restricted" content i.e. hard-core porn is another story.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
[deleted]
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@ Stewart (staff) - thanks for the post and apology, seriously nice to hear it coming from you... especially the fact that you feel that - " I'd enjoy doing less than deciding what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at... "
I wonder who is that chief who is "among them" and " is arguing about what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at " ...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
And on it goes...
If I was Stewart I would be tempted to say "Fuck it!!!!" and give up trying.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Stewart
Flickr could still make a survey among their users to find a solution that fits us all.
It would also be nice to set a date of registration from that on affected users could get a refund of their money. (i stay, but many want to leave)
Flickr should make it possible for Austria and Switzerland users to be treated as not-Germans
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@ellie 6:
I only said that his site was down prior to this explosion as I read a post in the FD Flickr Toys group about it days ago. Looking back at that post, it may well be that it is related to the current mess (judging by the date of the first post in the thread), though at least one poster to the thread mentions that Nils site was having problems in recent weeks.
You can read it here:
www.flickr.com/groups/flickrtoys/discuss/72157600344493018/
Judging by his stream, he is caught in the blocking as well but I do not know if his site being down is directly related.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Multitude,
Stewart may not have a poll up yet, but there's an active one here:
flickr.com/groups/central/discuss/72157600367522963/
(edit, added missing " ' ")
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
gocarrt edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
heather
The central problem is that Germany has much more stringent age verification laws than its neighboring countries and specifies much harsher penalties, including jail time, for those with direct responsibility (in our case, it would be our colleagues in the German offices and we're not willing to make a call that has that kind of consequence for them).
If you're part of the driving front new developments, taking risks should not be something you should be afraid of...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@gocarrt
thx for the info :-)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart:
You are welcome.
I do hope the one thing you will take away from this, no matter how it turns out, is that Heather's last statement, or something along its lines, should have come earlier. It would not have necessarily stemmed the tide or stopped legitimate user protests, but it would have reassured people sooner that the wheels were turning.
You have to know by now - Flickrzens hate to feel as if they are being ignored, so even if a quick fix is not available, or you cannot speak openly about what is happening, a post to at least that effect *in as much detail as you can safely go into* will earn Flickr a lot of good will.
Experience should also demonstrate that in an extreme situation (as this one has turned out to be), such a post ought to originate from you (as head honcho guy) or Heather, because it is her position and many people are used to seeing her in the forums, saying what she will do, then doing what she says. She holds a pretty high trust factor in the Flickr community.
Good luck, remember to sleep periodically. :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart, you're right. Saying, "We're reading, and listening, and sorry, but can't yet tell you anything," really doesn't help, but even that acknowledgement is better than nothing. Maybe not for the more hysterical among us, but for the reasonable majority, even that makes a difference.
Now, recognizing that none of us out here know precisely what's going on behind the curtain, it is, nonetheless, clear that this has gone off the tracks in the planning, implementation, and aftermath.
Please, get it together, and don't take your site down this road again.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
The story is making it to the mainstreet news in the U.S.
Flickr Restrictions Irk German Users
AP Story, on Yahoo! Finance ;-)
All news for flickr
on Yahoo! News
hehe, nice one: "also try flickr censorship" (isn't technology great?)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Multitude: "Flickr should make it possible for Austria and Switzerland users to be treated as not-Germans "
Users in Austria and Switzerland do not have to use Yahoo! Deutschland-based Yahoo! IDs (and they can still use a German language interface -- language choice is independent of jurisdiction). It's possible to sign up for an account on www.yahoo.com/ with the country set to Switzerland or Austria and then use the ID transfer tool to switch and begin signing in with the new account.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Stewart (staff) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
That attitude inspired a Yahoo shareholder to propose changes that that would have management to more aggressively fight against all forms of Internet censorship. The proposal was rejected by wide margin at Yahoo's annual meeting earlier this week.
biz.yahoo.com/ap/070615/flickr_censorship.html?.v=1
hm...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Thanks, Stewart.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
other mainstreet news in the U.S.
Flickr Users In Germany Complain Of Censorship CBS 5 Bay Area - actually the AP article linked above
Yahoo's Flickr service facing censorship complaints in Germany Fox 6 News
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Stewart
Didn´t know that, thanks.
So Austria and Switzerland is free to go and play in the forbidden zone, while the German issue remains. Well, that´s something, isn´t it.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Thanks for the comments, Stewart...very much appreciated...
Multitude,
There's also this, tho:
Jerry Yang, Yahoo’s co-founder and “chief Yahoo,” said at the meeting that the company had been actively lobbying the United States government to assist Internet companies in fighting censorship and protecting human rights in countries like China. Yahoo has also been working with academics, nongovernmental organizations and others to create a set of principles to protect freedom of expression, he said.
www.nytimes.com/2007/06/13/technology/13yahoo.html?ex=133...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Quick suggestion: how about a blog post in German for Austrians and Swiss to say they can do that? This thread's becoming a bit heavy and that solution may be lost?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
[deleted by loupiote - that bad link has been fixed in Stewart's posting]
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Thank you Stewart,
I think you have done a lot already, people know that things are moving, though slowly its the weekend.
Now just remember the other countries dealing with this filter as well. Do not forgot to consider their situation as well.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Finally, the media's attention, well done. Keep it going.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
How come, after every fuck up, we always get the "there's stuff we'd rather be working on" line? Talk about condescending!
Pierre
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
How come, after every fuck up, we always get the "there's stuff we'd rather be working on" line? Talk about condescending!
yes, i remember hearing the very same line last time, too...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Now just remember the other countries dealing with this filter as well. Do not forgot to consider their situation as well.
I've been wondering about that... why haven't we heard the same (any?) outcry from any of the other countries affected? (Not including China obviously, as that's a different issue altogether.)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart's reply, as usual, says nothing AT ALL. His posts look like the usual heavily-PR- filtered crap that's become the norm with all of Yahoo's properties. Pathetic really.
Several valid issues have been raised in this thread that totally counter the staff's "points" on the matter, yet he utterly fails to address any of them. If the staff's position was valid, he would be able to, as it's not he can't.
I'm not in Germany, actually I'm in Argentina, but I have very strong feelings about censorship and I will not tolerate any of it. As it's been said countless times in this thread, there are various adult websites based in Germany and they all have age verification schemes that comply with their country's laws. Flickr couid easily comply with them if they wanted to. They just don't want to admit they f***ed up.
Needless to say and unless this gets sorted out and the flickr staff asks for forgiveness we should all consider terminating our accounts and possibly commence legal action against Yahoo!.
Ohhh and BTW this will be re-posted on Digg this weekend, so that wlll probably draw even more attention on the issue and, as you deserve, negative publicity and a whole lot of awful headlines containing the word flickr related to censorship that will look lovely on a Google search.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Yes, I really hope Flickr takes away from this that they need to be proactive in communicating changes with the community. They can't just spring major changes with major consequences (such as what happened with language and filter launches) and expect people to not notice and to not get ticked off. Major sideoffects need reasonable explanations to back them up. Even if those explanations can't be given at the time, it's still a lot better to say that there are sideeffects and that they aren't intentional and they will be addressed, rather than just staying silent. Otherwise people will be expected to jump to their own conclusions.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
And how is this NOT a hot topic? Hmmm...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
it's hot enough on its own to stay up near the top of the page. Other official topics aren't as active but are still important and need to be pinned to the top.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@venture_smith:
What is going on here, all of you talk about flickr like its the savior of man kind gone bad. I hate to tell you this but flickr is a internet businesses model. Like Yahoo, Google, MSN, AOL and so many others.
No crap, DIck Tracy. I'm well aware of that. I have no illusions about the fact that flickr/Yahoo are set up to make money.
But if they want to make money they have to not offend their users. Simple. I'm feeling pretty offended and insecure right now. Yahoo! (and therefore its subsiduary, flickr) is showing again that it is more interested in complying with the will of repressive governments than supporting free speech and expression.
From what I can tell you seem to want flickr to shut its doors in the countries that we are talking about. Send all the employees home and say "we are sorry for the inconvenience but we are going to have to let you go until the requirements of the betterment of man have been meet. At witch time we will bring you back and you will be able to pay your rent and feed your family's. That is all"
Yes. "We are being threatened by your government and it is unsafe - for us and for you - to employ you." Then go on a publicity blitz around the world pointing out how people in those countries are having their lives disrupted by repressive, censoring governments".
Is that what you are looking for, is that what your waiting for a giant corporate flickr finger in the face of countries that have these laws?
Yes.
A flickr union where all the members of flickr and the flckr workforce and management lock arms and chant to the forces that be "we are flickr hear us roar in numbers to big to ignore (Helen Reddy) so fick you". Is this what you see when you close your eyes and sleep and dream. Well if that the case let me slap you awake from your little daydream of a flickr Utopia and point out that mom and dad have kids to feed.
What are you on?
Where do you get it?
How much does it cost?
I didn't realise that Yahoo is the only employer in these countries.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that flickr is all good in this. I'm just trying to point out that there are bigger bully's on the playground and flickr is not in a mood to get its ass kicked by the legal departments of the countries they are dealing with.
Which is why they should refuse to have offices in those countries. You can sell ads from the USA via email/web.
Besides if you want to point fingers point at Yahoo, it is the corporate policy that Yahoo set that flickrs following, after all Yahoo is the parent. But even then Yahoo is just trying to make a buck too.
So flickr, in effect = yahoo. So what?
Sure, flickr/Yahoo have the right to do what they want. And so do we.
Everything you say, if I took it seriously, means that we should all just swallow whatever happens without trying to change anything. Well, some people think that repression should be stood up to and challenged.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
it looks so sad to see this going on. I hope this situation will be solved in a positive way for Germans and the rest who are in the same boat wih them so to say.
I think it is nonsense to forbid so many kinds of pictures that MIGHT be offensive to some groups of people. People are so different and there is always something that MIGHT be offensive for someone, so if we follow this we will forbid most of the manifestations of people's creativity as far as the landuage and the fine arts are concerned. Which would be a great pity. This is actually what is going on now - language is being artificially limited, because certain words might be offensive for other people, not even when they are addressed directly to them, which would be understandable, but words in general. I think it reasonable to forbid only those pictures that actually break the law (show children pornography for example) or have explanations how to commit a crime (exact formulation of an explosive with an instruction for example) or an explicit propaganda (let's say german swastikas with nazi slogans or something). The rest - roasted piglets, women in panties and without panties, decorative swastikas, pictures that are not really pictures - should be allowed. Let people be grown up, don't do all the filtering of the information that comes to them for them, they should not be like small babies who faint or cry if they see something which is not flowers or grass or a party.
Flickr is a great photosight, that is why I've chosen it, I want to thank the staff, but don't let it turn into something of a school class - only nice and positive and plain photos ignoring real life what it actually should reflect or inspire.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
illyric edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Finally, a reply from staff. In the right thread. Great.
And really commenting on the topic of the thread in deeply thought-through, well formulated sentences. Explaining the whole issue to the community. To the members who feel treated like 13-year-olds.
Flickr PR must be a really lame duck if THAT response is the best they could come up with. Boo.com comes to my mind, another beautiful startup with great ideas that suddenly went havoc for neglecting their user base. (But other than boo.com, Flickr will not go under as they have made their "exit" to Yahoo! already.) Or do you remember Geocities? Great stuff, great community. Acquired by Yahoo! and then ridden to death by corporate culture.
I suggest that Flickr staff should enjoy their millions, maybe become angel investors or build up a Flickr competitor. Why not free yourself of the strangle of that big Yahoo! corporate? I mean - how sick is that? You build a wonderful community, and then some suits come along and forbid you to express your true emotions and feelings? Basically to interact with your community. Come on. It must be unbearable.
(I still believe that the whole disaster is just coming from Yahoo! - Stewart and the rest of the Staff probably knew exactly what would happen to their community. Yes, I guess it must HURT to see all this happening.)
As some have said before: This will go away. Flickr will still be Flickr, but in a different flavor. It will be a faceless mainstream photo site that sucks up $24.95 from moms and pops to enable them to share photos and maybe order prints. Anyone who actually sees photography as one form of art or as a medium for expression will move on. To where? I don't know. But there will be services picking up those who do not feel at home with Flickr.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"Users in Austria and Switzerland do not have to use Yahoo! Deutschland-based Yahoo! IDs (and they can still use a German language interface -- language choice is independent of jurisdiction). It's possible to sign up for an account on yahoo.com with the country set to Switzerland or Austria and then use the ID transfer tool to switch and begin signing in with the new account. "
Also possible for Germans? I tried to change my Yahoo.cm-ID's country to Germany with a valid address in Munich. It works. So am I right if I see the problem in Yahoo! Deutschland accounts and not in the address? If this is the point, everyone just has to switch to a international Yahoo-ID and everythings will work well?!
btw. I'm from Austria ;-)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@triotex, genau darum geht es. es betrifft die Nutzer nur wenn sie über einen yahoo.de Account eingeloggt sind. Sobald sie einen Yahoo.com Account haben ist alles hinfällig. Trotzdem kann ich das Unternehmensmodell von flickr nicht wirklich unterstützen.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@NorgeFan: Yes, there is still the censor filters. And "content filters" are just a nice word for that. But if that's the new way for Yahoo.de-IDs, there should be an official message to all Yahoo.de-ID users how they prevent the filters. "Dear Germans: Use Yahoo.com accounts...." But what will the Yahoo-Deutschland guys say to that? *g*
I know that "Forenhaftung" and age verification are a special problem for German services. But how Flickr solved this problems, was absolutely the wrong way. No communication, no real announcements and a fatal management after the protest started.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart "If there was something we could do right now, we would do it"
I still don't understand why Yahoo/Flickr sticks to the localization that caused all this. Why is restoring the old situation no option?
What we've heard from Yahoo/Flickr till now doesn't make me think there will be statement that will take the anger away. Not after the weekend. Not in a week. Not in two months.
So next question: do I want to leave Flickr? There are 259 reasons to stay here - you find them in my contact list. I don't want to miss out on the great shots of those 259 photographers. That's why I'm still here. Not for Yahoo, Flickr, Stewart, Heather or whoever.
The only thing that bothers me: when I have to renew my pro account in September I have to pay money to a company which policies I condemn. That doesn't feel right.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Robert: The solution "just switch to a second Yahoo-ID, but now to a U.S. based" works. They launched with an underdone solution: content filters for everyone with a Yahoo Deutschland ID. No age verification etc! And the communication strategy was awful. And Flickr is working great, so that's a huge plus for them. (Except the censorship)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
German uses should bring this to the courts. Flickr is complying to local legislation. The way they do that is "unfriendly" (to say the least), but the local law is the start of this all. So, on to the local, national and European courts. Moaning to Flickr about complying to local laws is barking up the wrong tree. Moaning to Flickr about their unfriendly behaviour is not.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"there's almost nothing in the world that I'd enjoy doing less than deciding what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at, but chief among them is arguing about what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at."
So, you'd rather not be "working for the clampdown"?
I have removed all 4282 of my (crappy) photos from public view until Stuart and his posse come to their senses and resign in the face of Yahoo jackboot asshole arm-twisting. Stuart: did you get the stock? yummy stock...dance with the devil in the pale moonlight.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Math: I agree. Flickr acts unfriendly in this point. "Hey users: Here a new feature but from now on with a "safety"-feature for Germans." That was Chinese government style. There is no blog post, no message or anything like that for .de-accounts and that's not the way you should launch a huge constriction like turning safe search on per default and with no other option.
Appendix to my last postings: And the Yahoo! management will also be happy about more Yahoo! accounts *g* More accounts means better shareholder reports :P
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Stewart
Ok Stewart Your last statement - within six month? Is that a promise?
But anyhow you guys are not on the right way? You say you don't want - yes I use the word - censor what a grown up German can see! How ist his possible? As we all know - there is now age verification! That's why you censor to all Germans!
So now you all go back in your office - since there is nothing to communicate! Great we all leave you there! Your market share in Germany will drop within your six month - for those great new features?
What they are? That's sounds like you talk with a little child... wait six month and then you get a great gift... wooow I just can't wait... let me spend 29 bucks right now - dammed pay pal dosn't work anymore. But yes I want this great new features - can I send you the money?
Come on I'm not serious - are you? I don't wait for great upcoming features. The last great upcoming feature (without notice in advance) was a localized site with bad translation, where I can read now in German, that flickr is the best smelling site areound. Oh I forgot the greatest improvement - censorship.
You are not willed to do something about it. Great I guess we have to stick with the so called situation. But we won't stop to protest. If your users don't want to see protest graphics - the reason you put them abut of explore and closed the help thread - we take pictures what are extremely bad and the second biggest market pushes them in the explorer again. What reason you give us then for pushing them out?
And one personal thing - the flickr party in Paris looked not like a big success... I didn't saw at least 50 people there... do you think a censorship and denying it helps to make flickr a success?
Have a nice weekend!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Steward:
Yep - we started getting complaints from people who actually want to see photographs
Sorry if I have to get personal, but to state THIS in the ACTUAL situation is an INSULT TO MY INTELLIGENCE.
You flickr stuff a mistake, that's fine with me.
But you're going on to worsen the situation.
Why, for heavens sake, is this topic not to be considered a HOT TOPIC anymore? It's by far the most interesting thing going on in flickr by now.
Well maybe we differ on the term "interestingness".
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Hey Yahoo, are you not able to create an easy age verification system? Poor company!
There is no apology for your behavior! Freely after the slogan: "Why complicates (age verification system), if it goes simply (censoring)!"
wear the blue ribbon
Think flickr, think!
Campaign against censorship at flickr!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
CrazyTabasco edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Associated Press: "The limitations were imposed earlier this week when Flickr launched a German-language version of its service. They have provoked indignant online protests that apparently caught management off guard"
How naïve.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
 Math Paul Is it really? In my eyes, they are way overreacting. Many local photo sharing or blogging providers do quite well over here WITHOUT weird filters like that. Believe it or not. ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"Why is restoring the old situation no option?"
Cause thousands of Germans are now used to have german interface and hundreds of new user wouldn't understand why there german website where they have just made a new account is now in english...
And most of them are quite, friendly, regularly paying customers they don't want to loose.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I certainly hope that the Flickr staff realise that for many people it is right now much more important to get this German issue with age verification sorted before any new, little features are added (no matter how nice they are). The staff should realise that these current restrictions that affect the people with a yahoo.de account are actually disrupting their Flickr experience and there are many people who are not getting the service they have paid for (and suffice to say, making them more reluctant to pay anything in the future).
It must be a tough place to be, trying to do things right, i.e. trying to protect the under-18s from seeing porn without preventing the over-18s from freely deciding what they want to see and what not. But I personally consider that finding a solution to this matter and issue should be a priority, even if a lot of Flickr users (particularly in the US) would not even know that there is an issue like this at all. But there are a lot of Flickr users who do know, even if the restrictions are not affecting them.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"...The whole Flickr team has been in ongoing discussions, trying to hammer out a solution...."
"...there are a pile of small and large features we want to add to Flickr in the next six months and I'd much rather be working on those (luckily the team is big enough that most people can keep working, though it is distracting for everyone)...."
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
This text has been reworded alt least five times. Mainly because I didn't feel like repeating the same thing over and over again or start insulting members of the flickr staff. Y!ou would just ignore it anyways and post another misleading and wrong cover-my-ass comment in about 24 hours.
Stewart, you don't need to decide what grown-up Germans are or are not allowed to look at. German law makers spent the past 100 years doing that for you. And, it may come as a surprise to you, they are actually quite specific. There is no fuzzy wording, there is no gray area.
2500 posts and only one thing came up that applies to a tiny fraction of all flickr images (aside from the obvious killing peope/animals and cp) "Nazi propaganda". The rest is, some after a simple "are you 18+" prompt, perfectly legal.
Is the communication between y!ou and your lawyers as infrequent and imprecise as it is in here? Is that the problem? Do you/they really think they would go to jail for showing a boob or "the finger"? Do you really fail to see the problem about increasing censorship on your site? Did you really think that throwing a gigantic moral blanked over the german users would solve your, wrongly perceived, problems?
... great, now I did repeat myself again.
//edit
...oh and "wait 6 months we may or may not have a goodie for you" ...is that your response? Is that your solution?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Drevor edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Last.fm and the German Spiegel seem to have a similar situation:
Last.fm vorläufig deaktiviert
Trotz eingehender vorhergehender Prüfung erwies sich der Jugendschutzfilter des Last.fm-Angebotes bei SPIEGEL ONLINE als noch nicht dicht genug. SPIEGEL ONLINE bietet den Musikdienst deshalb vorerst nicht weiter an, bis eine technische Lösung gefunden ist.
www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,488831,00.html
For the non-german readers:
The cooperation between the German Spiegel magazine and last.fm has been stopped since the automatic censorship system (youth protection filter) did not work properly.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Half my life I lived near the German-Swiss border. On the German side, you had all these red light bars, sex shops and porn cinemas heavily visited by the Swiss because such things were a non-issue in Switzerland. And now I have to experience that me as a German in Germany is not allowed to see some pics here on flickr. German age verification is about porn, not nudity. I guess, all what is porn in the German understanding is already not allowed here by flickr's ToS.
You can see a lot of stuff in the afternoon on public broadcasting tv what would be considered porn by most americans.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
sonicwalker, similar but not the same. They had trouble with nazi propaganda music. Even though it was just a tiny fraction of their content the state attorneys are quite quick about those things. But I have yet to see real nazi propaganda on flickr. In contrast, most of the stuff you see here is either antifa or clearly documentary. Both being perfectly legal.
... I feel like a broken record ...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
you say you do not censor (relating to heathers last comment), well lets take a look at the definition of censorship:
Censorship is defined as the removal and withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body.
Typically censorship is done by governments, religious groups or the mass media, although other forms of censorship exist. The withholding of official secrets, commercial secrets, intellectual property, and privileged lawyer-client communication is not usually described as censorship when it remains within reasonable bounds. Because of this, the term "censorship" often carries with it a sense of untoward, inappropriate or repressive secrecy.
Censorship is closely related to the concepts of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. When overused, it is often associated with human rights abuse, dictatorship, and repression.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship)
well, if that is not what you are doing, what ARE you doing?
and please stop telling the lie of your german colleagues being in danger due to the strict german media legislation! it is simply *NOT* true. it really isn't. as mentioned many times before, the degree of provocation publicized on flickr doesn't even come close to what goes on in german tv after 12.00am. secondly, your german conditions of use (AGB) are waterproof, and your legal division should know that.
so, please, if u don't find a proper excuse for what you did, for being cowards, just be silent. but PLEASE, stop shoving those lies down our throats. they are an insult to all the people in germany who have kept the truly liberal atmosphere in this country, when it comes to freedom of speech.
again, i hope you learn from this, for future decisions
good luck
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
censor n. (...) 2. Official inspecting books, letters, newspapers, etc., to ensure that they shall contain nothing immoral, seditious, or unacceptable to military or other authorities. (...)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewarts two statements (this one and this one) are a big step forward for being optimistic for a solution. But I guess one has to read between the lines. The best thing in the first statement is the bow towards fallsroad, who essentially said "I guess they would say it stays this way, if they intend not to solve the probleme" and "you have to read between the lines to find out what they really want to say". The second statement essential is an offical acknowledgement that, yes, it is possible to circumvent the censorship by using yahoo.com, and they know about it.
For me, this means, that I won't want to sit my whole weekend in front of this discussion, but that I will wait and have a look again next week. If others want to engage further in protest, one thing one can do is protest at Yahoo Deutschland's (see Update 17), another thing that would be helpful would be to compile a kind of FAQ -- what is the protest about, why do we (Germans) think that Yahoo is overreacting, what are the official statements and so on.
(Edit: I started a thread for this FAQ-issue).
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
tillwe edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
And they wonder why staff don't comment.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Stewart, it's good to see you here, but you're still not helping yourselves.
How is it, that the head honcho of Flickr cannot say anything substantitive after 3 days? Who's gagging you? Is it Yahoo? Ah, we all know it's Yahoo.
You should really use the means available to you to influence the policies of your parent company in a positive way. The secrecy and vagueness from Flickr is worsening the situation by the hour.
And tell those Yahoo lawyers that changing the TOS unilaterally and without prior notice is a big no-no in Germany and the EU in general. I have no horse in this race, as my pro account has lapsed, but in my view this is even worse than first act of censorship. That I can see as an honest (although mighty stupid) mistake due to cultural misunderstandings. But the way you have done it is a slap in the face of your customers and it is ILLEGAL where I live.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
self censored
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
... not to mention that German law requires a lot of other data in the imprint (e.g. tax numbers) ...
You need to recheck your laws flickr isn't Retail Software.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
So first it's about youth protection and now suddenly it's about adults again?
Stewart, it would be much helpful, if you could specify what legal regulations are giving you trouble. What are we talking about here?
The only thing I can think of that German adults might be forbidden to access is content violating §130 StGB. And thesafe search filter doesn't help you with that at all. US users posting content violating §130 StGB have no reason whatsoever to flag it anything other than safe. I assume the safe search filter it puts you at risk even more, because you are admitting they are aware of the regulations, but refuse to implement any sufficient methods to comply. The safe search filter will not hold up in any German court for a second.
And now, since Flickr was stupid enough to raise attention to German laws, there are several other laws Flickr is breaking:
You've altered your service significantly without giving notice to the affected costumers beforehand. Even worse, you claim the safe search filter can not be deactivated due to new local TOS, but there is nothing in the TOS about the safe search (at least I can find nothing). Then, TOS are only available in English, non-english speakers who signed up through the German interface don't even understand what TOS they had to accept.
And where's the imprint? German law requires that the imprint is no more than two clicks away from any page of your service (and not just any kind of links, they have to be clearly named, to make the imprint easy to find). I can find no contact address for the mysterious German Flick office (and believe me, I have looked long and hard, I want to know where to send my claim for a refund when I cancel my account), not to mention that German law requires a lot of other data in the imprint (e.g. tax numbers). Any competitor could sue Flickr because of the missing imprint alone. An expensive risk and much, much more likely than going to prison for any illegal content.
Yahoo! Deutschland allowed you to go live in German and with a German domain without an imprint and valid (German) TOS? Are they out of their mind? Your competitors and their lawyers must have a field day...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
... not to mention that German law requires a lot of other data in the imprint (e.g. tax numbers) ...
@Walwyn: no, that point is right -- any commercial website operation in Germany needs to have information about the commercial entity operating this website, including the registration number at the commerical courts, or if it is a self-employed person, the tax number. See the imprint of Yahoo Deutschland for example.
But I don't think this is a big point, and I don't think it is a helpful strategy to counter "we do it to follow the law" with "I think what you do is wrong, but anyways, you do not follow the law, you have also to do this, and this, and this".
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
And where's the imprint? German law requires that the imprint is no more than two clicks away from any page of your service
what does "imprint" means?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Thats all folks...
Bitte gehn sie weiter, hier gibt es nichts zu sehen...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@loupiote "imprint" = "impressum"
(edit: another English word could be masthead)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
tillwe edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
what does "impressum" means in english? (or french)?
is that the TOS?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Triotex [CENSORED by Flickr]: "The solution "just switch to a second Yahoo-ID, but now to a U.S. based" works."
Anyone capable to translate this in Korean for our Korean friends? I bet Flickr won't do that.
manganite: "Cause thousands of Germans are now used to have german interface and hundreds of new user wouldn't understand why there german website where they have just made a new account is now in english..."
So that's what Yahoo/Flickr policy is all about.
You win some, you loose some.
Next new feature.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@staff: just rename flickr to Yahoo! Photos. This way we won't be surprised about bad decisions and even worse communication any longer (communication - commuity: does this have something in common?)
I'm still not satisfied with your (non-) statements and am really thinking you try to sit it out...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@loupiote: see my edit above, the correct English is imprint, it's also known as masthead, flag; an area in a publication that informs about the owner of the operation, the name of the publication, legal registration number, copyright, contact and so on. It's not the TOS, but only the extended address of the owner of the publication.
(Edit: leo.org says: in French it's mentions légales.)
(Edit: see for a discussion of the potential translation problems here; they propose "legal", "publisher information", "site info").
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Walwyn says:
You need to recheck your laws flickr isn't Retail Software.
Maybe you should recheck your facts, German law is different from the UK. German law requires that every website has an "Impressum" (an imprint, a masthead, a flag - that's the translation the online dictonary is given me, sorry if that was not clear). There has to be a name and contact address, for incorporate entities additionally the name of the person authorised to represent the cooperation. There have to be an e-mail address and a phone number to enable quick contact and so on. For your reference, this is the "Impressum" of Y! Deutschland: de.docs.yahoo.com/pr/contact.html.
German law even requires that I have an "Impressum" for my private weblog (which has about 1.5 readers). Violation of the "Impressumspflicht" can be fined with 50,000.- EUR, every competitor can take legal action against you.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@tillwe
oh, ok. never heard of that "imprint" word in the US, so it's probably not a concept very popular in america.
but every flickr page has "Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved." and a link to the yahoo website. is that not enough?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
Feed – Subscribe to help discussion threads