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@crazyinthenight: there are answers. but they say nothing else as: "we can't tell you, its all a big big secret!!"
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sint edited this topic 11 months ago.
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crazyinthenight, there were a couple of reactions, but I wouldn't call them answers. Hell, they don't even say why they can't give us an answer.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Eric said
"By the same token, of course we understand that you want us to explain what is going on. Which is why we've said several times that we can't right now, and that as soon as we can, we will."
So not only do we not get an explanation, we don't even get a reason as to why we can't have an explanation? If the matter's sub judice then simply say so.
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I told you they need help!!! don't be so cruel!
They have a gun on their head ... and they are trying to tell us but we don't understand ... what happens next? there is a lot of time since I saw a Hollywood movie :-)
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eric is telling everyone that flickrstaff "can't" explain right now. read that to mean, there are legal compulsions involved.
not necessarily. flickr staff could have been orderd (by yahoo HQ) not to disclosed anything regarding this issue until yahoo comes-up with some official answer that is approved at the highest level.
we just don't know and we won't until they decide to say something, and the more they wait, the more damage control they'll have to do, clearly.
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 11 months ago.
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sometimes legally if you're constrained from giving information you're also constrained from explaining why you can't. that might be why they're not saying why. it's all part of the same problem.
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hm, its strange to come to flickr for hang out in forums. but well, browsing is currently not supported ...
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Just look at the site logo...they love us. I feel like having a johnstown moment.....kool aid any one?
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I do not know how long we have to wait, but If the matter is legal in nature, it would take weeks to resolve.
Flickr, I do hope you have a very good answer for us, because your reputation for censorship has taken a 3rd hit this time. I do not think members will keep accepting apologies if you keep "censoring" and apologizing for it.
The boy who cried wolf only cried 3 times.
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TinyTitian edited this topic 11 months ago.
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@Amidasu i'm with you... no answers yet... i still don't understand what is going on. and i still do not understand why i'm agnostic about being content with this kind of answers.
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the flickr staff is getting a massage (I guess they could use one)
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote that's also possible, but I also think the flickr staff are trying to solve the issue. not just find a slick answer that leaves everyone angry and the censorship in place. it's so obviously not good for flickr if they can't fix this.
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@Joshua Bail that's the difference... they might love you - but not me... you're not from germany, are you?! ;)
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if you make a mistake and dont correct it you make another mistake.
not giving answers was their second mistake in this case.
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actually i am originaly from germany....but no this does not effect me yet. And i was being sarcastic.....
Posted 11 months ago.
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if you keep filters, will pro accounts have half price then? i mean, i can only use half of the service...
Posted 11 months ago.
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maybe the answer is hidden in their messages … anyone tried to read every 5th letter? maybe it makes more sense then.
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kosmar: If you think inciting people to deface someone's personal flickr page is helping, then you have your own ethics issues to deal with. You lose all sympathy and credibility when you become a simple bully.
Fortunately this thread is so out of control no one's bothering to read more than a dozen posts from the end (I've actually taken to reading from the bottom up.)
Posted 11 months ago.
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you gotta leave out to vowels
(edit: false friend)
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regular gonzales edited this topic 11 months ago.
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flickr staff are trying to solve the issue
there was no issue 3 days ago. yahoo created the issue, so it should not be hard for them to solve it. i think that the problem is a case of business priorities. if censoring means better business, then i'm sure they are all for it. if it means bad press and less business, then they might rethink about doing it. it's all profit driven, at the bottom-line.
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@ The Searcher Try just skipping ahead to the gray "staff" comments.
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@the searcher everyone knows about caterinas and stewarts page. as they cant react i just thought maybe someone at yahoo could? and thats no defacement. you can still search for names in flickr, they forgot to restrict that.
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kosmar edited this topic 11 months ago.
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loupiote (Old Skool) Profit will be the ultimate decision maker. Sad, but true.
Posted 11 months ago.
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This threat is NOT out of control. There are only three questions to
be answered by the flickr staff:
- Why can't the flickr staff tell why they can't tell us anything (Yahooo, where are you?)
- Which German laws make you censoring our accounts?
- Why didn't you tell us before?
Posted 11 months ago.
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searcher: come on. kosmars point was a violation of flickr's TOS by yahoo germany's CEO which is actually quite entertaining, isn't it?
Posted 11 months ago.
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if there was another photo sharing site as good as flickr and reasonnably priced that did have all those censorship issues, with tools to automatically migrate all my 3000+ photos and sets (including all their tags, geotags, descriptions, set descriptions etc), i would not think much before migrating all my work to that other site.
never mind loosing all the interesting comments and favs from the flickr community.
the fact is there is no photo sharing site as good as flickr. not yet. and any large company (e.g. google) is somehow having to deal with censorship of user content.
Posted 11 months ago.
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gonzales: that wasn't his point. His point (evidenced by his snarky "ooh don't go there and do anything, ooh" comment) was a shallow cowardly attempt to incite the crowd to go deface and otherwise harass someone. That also happens to be against the TOS, so it's hard to listen to hypocritical "points" after that.
Posted 11 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 11 months ago.
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deleted
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar edited this topic 11 months ago.
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it's becoming clear that flickr didn't anticipate what would happen or they would have been ready to respond. Now that they're in damage control mode all they can say is the equivalent of "No comment". At least they're saying it in more than 2 words.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Proggie: and they are saying it since more then 2 days...
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What good would an answer to the why-Question do at this point? Reassure upset Germans that they are not being treated as children or fascists? Why would anybody need that reassurance?
What matters is how Flickr is going to fix this, not really why the mistake was made in the first place. It's going to be a stupid reason, rest assured. And until they have worked out a solution, they're not going to say anything. Neither would I.
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar: no, that would be ample grounds to have you removed from Flickr permanently. Sort of solves your issues, doesn't it?
Why do you want to be that guy? That creepy stalker passive-aggressive attacker guy? Just say your beefs in here (over and over and over, since it's all been said) and don't make it personal and icky.
[yah, smart move deleting that.]
Posted 11 months ago.
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it's becoming clear that flickr didn't anticipate what would happen
which is hard to believe - i thought flickr staff were pretty smart in general. i think they were pushed into doing that by higher forces not under their control.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Proggie more than 2 words? they could say fuckya... it seems to mean the same. i'm kidding... i'm upset... that's all. content filters are treating us like an under age and the answers made here sound the same.
Posted 11 months ago.
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I hate the situation I'm in here at flickr but I have to admit that this e-riot is quite a fun. But please, flickr staff, try to find a solution quickly nevertheless... :D
Posted 11 months ago.
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arndalarm edited this topic 11 months ago.
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@searcher. i dont think flickr needs to remove me. they already did it half the way. i can go the rest miy own. thank you. just because youre a business partner with these censors, proofs how money inclines personalities.
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar edited this topic 11 months ago.
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loupiote: and it's also hard to believe they would think they could sneak it by, maybe if it was a temporary solution. Considering some of the screenshots of German's favorites I've seen (where more than half the page of thumbnails is fuzzed out) it's pretty clear, hindsight or not, this would be instantly discovered. So the not getting out in front of this, is truly a mystery to me.
Posted 11 months ago.
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don't know if the timing has any importance, but remember that heather said they were all in the air (flying to europe, no less, for the events) and didn't know what was going on until after landing. I bet that was a nasty shock.
Posted 11 months ago.
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The decision to change the Flickr experience in Germany was never about censorship - it was made to try to ensure that Yahoo! Germany was in compliance with local legal restrictions. In fact, we're all getting really uncomfortable that the words "flickr" and "censorship" are being jammed together with increasing frequency because that is _so far_ from the direction we're trying to move in.
The central problem is that Germany has much more stringent age verification laws than its neighboring countries and specifies much harsher penalties, including jail time, for those with direct responsibility (in our case, it would be our colleagues in the German offices and we're not willing to make a call that has that kind of consequence for them).
Up to the point of launch we had been exploring every possible approach which would allow us to do what makes sense while still operating inside the law. Unfortunately, the solutions did not come together in the way we thought they would.
I know people would like to know exactly what is going on, have a chance to evaluate the internal back and forth, and know all of the reasoning. Unfortunately, that's just not possible. In the end, some of you will trust that we are doing our best and are confident that we'll have a workable system in the future and some of you will not. We'd love to be able to change that reality, but we can't. We've made and admitted to a couple of big mistakes lately, and as many of you have commented, we should have handled this issue differently.
Believe me when I say that we'd rather not make mistakes in the first place, but when we do, take hope in the fact that we always listen, always respond, and often change the system as a direct result of your input. That's the way Flickr rolls, and we never want that to change.
So again, we're not perfect (as much as we'd like to be), but everyone on the team is resourceful, fair-minded and determined to find the solution to this. You'll be the first to know the outcome.
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar: I've been as critical of Flickr's actions as anyone over this. But Flickr's actions aren't reason to attack individuals. Your ad hominem attack there on me, for instance, is just proof you're here to stir things up, rather than offer words of frustration or options.
So you're saying if I paid you some cash right now, you'd calm down for a bit? Because I'd seriously consider it.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Can someone from the German government please imprison all of the Germans who are committing the crime of minimizing the Holocaust by comparing it to having the pron taken away? That should at least quiet things down a bit.
First Flickr came for the porn, and I said nothing because I had no porn in my account.
Next I suppose they'll come for the Jews, and I'll be screwed because I'm one and they'll gas me. Damn you, evil Flickr!
Don't worry Paris Steve, we Americans will bail you out again after the just-as-evil-as-Hilter Nazis take over Paris with their mighty blitzkrieg.
Posted 11 months ago.
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after 48 hours... the statement we asked for... is the yahoo staff that far away? *reading*
Posted 11 months ago.
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sure, pointing to people is a bit harsh. but hello … i was pointing to the boss of this whole thing. he is probably one of those responsible, no? in this case he is no protected individual but a person of public interest. he probably could give some answers, that flickr staff cannot.
thats all.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Thanks Heather, I can't help but think that if someone had said all of that at the start of this thread, then we'd never have reached page 16.
Posted 11 months ago.
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and im honestly sorry if you felt offended by pointing out that you earn money off flickr. its in your profile page, openly. sorry again, that was not in my intend.
Posted 11 months ago.
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@heather: which german laws are you referring to? please give us links.
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Damn. looks like I was right way back on about page 2 or 3.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Finally something that can be called an answer.
If you really are afraid that your colleagues in Germany face jailtime (which is rather improbable; I don't recall a single case where there was even a trial because of that. The biggest risk you're putting your colleagues at is getting fined) you should really thing about blocking Flickr as a whole for German users, because you can still see a lot of pornographic content, while really harmless content is blocked. I also don't think that enforcing the filter rules for people with a German Yahoo account only, while all the other accounts are left untouched can be considered an effective restriction (in the sense of § 184 StGB, but then again I'm thankfully not a lawyer)
Posted 11 months ago.
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Amidasu edited this topic 11 months ago.
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the first answer at all... thanks yahoo for letting heather speak!
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar, she is very likely referring to § 184 StGB.
Funny though that the filters filter more or less everything but hardcore pornography.
Posted 11 months ago.
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>The central problem is that Germany has much more stringent age verification laws than its neighboring countries and specifies much harsher penalties
So then, can you explain me why:
- i can turn of the filter on google.de
- i have payed with my creditcard, but you pretent not to know that im over 18
- Flickr doesn´t ask for age verification and decide to turn of filters then
- Flickr makes this restrictions for Austria and Switzerland too
- Flickr hasn´t mailed me about this
- Flickr hasn´t made any advance notice about this
- Flickr hasn´t given a clear statement about this
> words "flickr" and "censorship" are being jammed together
Well then Flicke should better make some good decisions very soon. Cause what googled has become for searched, "flickred" will become for censored.
As a matter of fact, today i hear some boy in the subway saying he has been "flickred" by his teacher not to use the word "shit" in school.
Posted 11 months ago.
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you mean dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/184.html
Posted 11 months ago.
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thanks for the explanation, heather.
so as long as flickr UI was in english, there was no problem using flickr in germany, but as soon as the flickr UI got localized into german, then the germany-based yahoo staff was suddenly at risks of jail time?
is that because non-german-speaking websites are immune from those german laws that you are refering to?
Posted 11 months ago.
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Well there you go. A reason external to Flickr for why the filters were locked down. The timing is probably because they now have offices in Germany, and before the localisation they didn't.
The legal issues may have something to do with this: www.germanlawjournal.com/current_issue.php?id=279
...but I could be wrong. :)
Posted 11 months ago.
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if so, remove the german version now and we are all very happy.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Not exactly what we wanted to hear and not specific but as a first statement...
Posted 11 months ago.
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i'm pretty sure yahoo had offices in germany before they did the german localization of flickr. yahoo.de has been there for a while.
Posted 11 months ago.
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The translations are crappy anyway. Away with the new version!
Posted 11 months ago.
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lawyers.
Posted 11 months ago.
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contra pro
Posted 11 months ago.
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pls remove the german version! we never asked for it and some of us would never have used flickr if it was censored... more than the german law would do
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote: I think it's because up until about the launch (and German launch party) there simply was no Flickr staff in Germany. Now they've established an office with desks and soda machine and people and all that. Not so simple as flipping a switch back the other way, unfortunately.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Thanks, Heather. I hope you guys can find a way to manage age verification from Yahoo.de, assuming there's not an easier solution.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Lú_ edited this topic 11 months ago.
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i have a suggestion, then:
disable the german censorship for all "pro" account (with age verified by way of credit-card or other means).
when non-pro german users try to access "moderate" or "restricted" content, tell them that they should pay in order to see that content. that would be an incentive for people to pay for "pro" accounts, and bring some revenues.
Posted 11 months ago.
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I may be wrong, but there are thousands of Hardcore Porn Websites launched in Germany.
All they need is a age verification. So:
a) Make a age verification
b) turn of filters for those who are under 18+ year old.
@babblingfaerie
No, this is not a external reason. It´s a internal handling of a law that does not apply to all the users.
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote: I think it's because up until about the launch (and German launch party) there simply was no Flickr staff in Germany.
flickr is a division of yahoo, and there was yahoo staff in germany. so that's not a correct argument.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Is there general worldwide censorship happening?
Posted 11 months ago.
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Having a credit card proves age? Is there a age limit on credit cards? Just curious :)
Posted 11 months ago.
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@ tickbird In many many ways.
Posted 11 months ago.
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@Patrick Dockens sure there is a age limit on credit cards. but they also know my birthday at credit card institution.
Posted 11 months ago.
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kosmar edited this topic 11 months ago.
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i thought age verification was an american invention... didn't you hear about it before??? credit card, identity card...
Posted 11 months ago.
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I thought most of the complaints in the Payment thread were from Germans who don't have credit cards.
Posted 11 months ago.
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>Is there a age limit on credit cards?
Yes! 18
Please don´t tell my, in America a 3 Year old can buy stuff for 3000 Dollars with "his" credit card!
Posted 11 months ago.
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>I thought most of the complaints in the Payment thread were from Germans who don't have credit cards.
You also can verify your age by mail ;-)
Posted 11 months ago.
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Multitude edited this topic 11 months ago.
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If that's all was to this issue, what was the restriction on saying it earlier?
Posted 11 months ago.
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heather, are you saying that the issue will ultimately be resolved by implementing more stringent age verification systems on flickr for germans, to match the more stringent age verification laws?
Posted 11 months ago.
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I probably never would have felt in love with flickr in the first place, if it would have had that german UI from the beginning. It's a lot about the wording and the original is so much better than the translation (from what I was told) I'm sure we all would happily say good-bye to the localization and welcome back that adorable uncrippled original.
Posted 11 months ago.
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regular gonzales edited this topic 11 months ago.
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flickr is a division of yahoo, and there was yahoo staff in germany.
right, but they were never directly responsible for anything flickr related. now they are. that would change things.
Posted 11 months ago.
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I had a bank account well before I was 18 , I suppose you can now. Can you get a debit card, associated with that bank account, before age 18? I use my debit card to pay for Flickr, and was never asked for any age verification.
Posted 11 months ago.
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ok, and what about the same censorship in Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea?
is that also related to age verification?
if not, what are the reason for those censorship?
Posted 11 months ago.
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@Patrick Dockens
A bank account is not a credit card.
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I still don't get it, Heather!
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote, my offhand understanding is that those areas have more stringent obscenity laws that are not age specific.
Posted 11 months ago.
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"In fact, we're all getting really uncomfortable that the words "flickr" and "censorship" are being jammed together with increasing frequency because that is _so far_ from the direction we're trying to move in."
Do you really not understand why this has happened? Because you kept secrecy about it. Because you didn't communicate. You silently installed the filter and didn't tell anyone. Until just now you didn't even tell us why you did it. It took major action from the users and media to tell us something, and you probably didn't tell us everything. If you are just the victims of German jurisdiction, why not simple say so right from the start? Why not put a big banner on the German front page, reading "Dear German users, because of German jurisdiction we are forced to remove images from your view". This would have prevented the whole Flickr censorship uproar.
The funny thing is that things like that happen all the time to internet companies, but they all seem to be absolutely resistent to learn from the other's mistakes.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Flickr staff doesn't feel comfortable with the word censorship? Well I also tried to deny my nose was too big for my face, but that didn't make my life easier. In the end I had to accept it.
Come on folks, admit it! You'll feel better after that!
Posted 11 months ago.
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Multitude I know, but I do not use a credit card, I have a debit card which acts like a credit card. It is associated with my bank account. It is how I payed for Flickr. I could have easily gotten this before I was 18.
Posted 11 months ago.
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And what about the 16.000.000 People living in Austria and Switzerland?
Posted 11 months ago.
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@Patrick Dockens: in Germany you can get a bank account if you're under 18, but you'll never get a credit card. Even if you're over 18, you still need to prove that you have regular income to get one. That is one of the reasons why very few people own credit cards in Germany (I also don't own one, mainly because they are extremely unsafe).
Edit: a debit card is not a credit card. You can't pay with German debit cards on Flickr.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Amidasu edited this topic 11 months ago.
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And what about the 16.000.000 People living in Austria and Switzerland
merely collateral damage
Posted 11 months ago.
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Just thought: I paid for a service that I now do not get anymore now, without any prior announcement and no offer of a recompense. Hah. Ever thought of that? If I was an evil guy, I could sue FLICKR because of that even before FLICKR gets sued for porn. Do you guys at FLICKR have a legal departement you talk to before you commit stupid mistakes like this? Giggle.... And: no. I will not act like an American, means: I will not sue anyone tomorrow. But I severly hope, you get that mistake corrected. Soon.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Sven K. edited this topic 11 months ago.
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heather says:
The decision to change the Flickr experience in Germany was never about censorship - it was made to try to ensure that Yahoo! Germany was in compliance with local legal restrictions. In fact, we're all getting really uncomfortable that the words "flickr" and "censorship" are being jammed together with increasing frequency because that is _so far_ from the direction we're trying to move in.
And yet, that is precisely the direction in which you have moved. Intentions matter: Results matter more.
heather says:Up to the point of launch we had been exploring every possible approach which would allow us to do what makes sense while still operating inside the law. Unfortunately, the solutions did not come together in the way we thought they would.
Did you, at any time, begin a thread in the forums saying, "Hey guys, we'd love to make flickr available to you, in your language. Right now, we're looking at doing just that in the following languages.... Problem is, there are some possible hiccups that could have serious repercussions. That said, the flickr community is incredibly diverse, and we're hoping that some of you can help us out. Here's where we're at....(explanation of concerns follows)." Seriously, would doing this have compromised flickr-hoo in anyway? If Gold Corp could throw open it's books and make a mint, and Nettwerk and the Barenaked Ladies can make the band's ProTools files available on MySpace, why can't flickr take a far, far smaller step and ask it's users to help build a better photo site?
heather says:I know people would like to know exactly what is going on, have a chance to evaluate the internal back and forth, and know all of the reasoning. Unfortunately, that's just not possible. In the end, some of you will trust that we are doing our best and are confident that we'll have a workable system in the future and some of you will not. We'd love to be able to change that reality, but we can't. We've made and admitted to a couple of big mistakes lately, and as many of you have commented, we should have handled this issue differently.
Trust's a funny thing: easy to lose, difficult to earn. Given the admitted to big mistakes recently, and this decision to censor whole countries, WHY would you expect ANYONE to trust you... or the Yahooligan puppet masters apparently standing behind you?
heather says:So again, we're not perfect (as much as we'd like to be), but everyone on the team is resourceful, fair-minded and determined to find the solution to this. You'll be the first to know the outcome.
So again, open the doors, a little. No matter how resourceful the team, it's small team. You're shutting out how many thousands of users, any number of whom might well have (a piece of ) the solution that's eluding you. Maybe it's too late to go down this path this time, but for the love of flickr, quit *#&@ing around.
[edit: bad link replaced]
Posted 11 months ago.
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Jaboney edited this topic 11 months ago.
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Well Sven, since Flickr now has a German branch office, German laws apply. And that means you'll probably have a Sonderkündigungsrecht (don't ask me to translate that one).
Posted 11 months ago.
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@ Amidasu Ah, thank you. I see this is a difference between the US and Germany.
Posted 11 months ago.
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The decision to change the Flickr experience in Germany was never about censorship
i love that wording. since this change in the Flickr experience is precisely blocking all non-safe content from view from german people, that's exactly a case of censorship, isn't it?
Posted 11 months ago.
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loupiote (Old Skool) edited this topic 11 months ago.
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Brenda: I was thinking the same thing (the lack of credit cards in UK for some reason) and that as is, there is no verifiable age-check built into Flickr or Yahoo. So until they build one, well, um this, apparently.
Loupiote: It wasn't an argument, it was a guess. and what Striatic said fills in what I meant (it's actual "Flickr" staff now. It'd take a lawyer to tell you if that suddenly makes them at risk or not.)
Amidasu: that isn't just why this happened (the loud loud response to the blocking). When a parent takes a child's toy away, and the only reason is "because", it pisses the child off. But even once the parent comes back and offers an explanation, the child is still pissed. because under it all, we just want our toy back.
No explanation will placate anyone. The only thing that makes this anger go away, is when the blocking goes away. The handling of this sucks. But Seeing pages full of people's favorites all fuzzed out, that's the real sucky.
Posted 11 months ago.
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Credit card doesn't guarantee age at least in America. Dogs and babies can get credit cards here thanks to very little checks happening. You can also have your parent or friend pay for the Pro account with their card. Or have convince some Flickr friend to sponsor your account. Pro accounts show nothing about age.
Posted 11 months ago.
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