|
|
oh George now after licht is pissed of you give an answer you wanted long time ago!
No where untill now was this cleared out! You guys are funy - why you didn't tell this yesterday or better you announced this before.
licht wouldn't be pissed off and the flickr stuff would have here not such a hard time.
But honestly I don't trust that statement until it's posted in a more public place!
Like the blog? Or on the help page for filtering!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Why are we producing this hot air here? May the protest go on until they tell us "WHY"!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@George thanks for clarify the issue with classifying private content is not necessary. But what if I want to show a photo that should be maked "moderate" to my contacts only and one of my contacts "complain" about it by clicking the "review this photo" thingy?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
George, my understanding is that the safesearch setting trumps private; friends/family settings (a feature that was requested when the filter system originally was instituted, so that if someone preferred safesearch, they could view thier contacts within those parameters). Therefore, setting "moderate" or restricted photos to friends/family and marking my German contacts friends/family will not help, as they can only view photos marked as safe (regardless of the contact level).
Or, are you now saying that as in the NIPSA days of yore, people can get around the filtering system by marking pictures that should be moderate or restricted as safe, but making them available to friends/family only? And then making their German contacts friends/family?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
tillwe If I wouldn't trust flickr, I would cacel my account immediatly!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
If only I'd see a way to get in contact with the legal folks of Yahoo! Germany - I see the problem with them, not with the Flickr staff.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
To everybody advocating patience, don't be ridiculous. Patience would be appropriate if there were the tinyest bit of information available, but there isn't. A statement by the Flickr staff to the effect of
The block is enforced because of XYZ. We're currently talking to ABC to get this figured out. We expect a resolution in 1, 2, 3 hours/days/weeks. Please bear with us.
would go great ways towards diffusing the tensions.
Until then I can only encourage other users to post protest pictures that make it into Explore and vent their frustration in this thread to make sure that the news spreads far and wide and that Flickr/Yahoo won't be able to simply ride this out.
Saying "we're working on it" without specifying what "it" is, is simply not good enough.
(edit: typo)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
helter-skelter edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
rob_visual: About the "why": www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,488542,00.html
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Querulant -- then do this. I do it only when they say that they won't change their policy.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
The whole thing is simple enough, I think:
Flickr is trying not to get indicted by German prosecutors, or sued by Germans in civil actions.
Under German media law, the operator of a website (flickr) is partially responsible for all content supplied on it. This extend to entries in guestbooks, forums, etc. It would definitely extend to photos violating juvenile-protection laws, personality rights of individuals, Nazi-paraphernalia laws etc.
However, a website operator is only obliged to install content checks within reasonable limits. They are not allowed leave offensive content online for weeks, but if you check every once in a while, that's okay. So, seeing as Flickr already have a reasonable content-checking system in place, that's what they decided to use - rather than have employees go through, what, 500 million photos one by one.
Which would be a workable idea, I think, if the content-rating system were more refined than it is right now. At the very least, it's a bit on the cowardly side not to allow "moderate" photos to be displayed for German users.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
strawberryblues: this is more or less a rumour and hypothesis though?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@strawberryblues: that's only speculation -- Flickr isn't saying.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
swisskiltbear: People who disagree with you are trolls? Why am I not surprised.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@George: Noone complains about the ability of setting filter levels to photos. This is not the problem. The option of preventing the display of certain pictures (that is pictures marked as "moderate" or some other level) is great - AS LONG AS EVERYONE CAN SET THIS LEVEL FOR HIS OWN.
It's also ok when flickr sets the level for pictures that are definitively labled with an inappropriate level. THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
And if I wish to share pictures in a non public place, then I do this via my website or via mail. I don't need flickr for this at all. It's about sharing photos with everyone willing to see the pictues (i.e. having set his safesearch level to the desired degree of liberality). AND THIS IS THE POINT EVERYONE HERE COMPLAINS ABOUT BECAUSE FLICKR TOOK THIS DECISION AWAY FROM SOME USERS!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
de jäck Mamsäll - I can't read German, but I *think* these are the Yahoo.de terms of service:
de.docs.yahoo.com/info/utos.html
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
It sounds like they need a German speaking moderator...from what was said the problem is being worked on and from what I have seen here any answer will not be good enough...so aloha to the ones that will not listen and patience and the problem will be resolved to those that are listening...at least that's what I have gotten from this...As I have said before contact your local representative (you who live in Germany) and find out what the problem is..you elected them..get them to work..and find out the problem...I have to say it has been interesting finding out what all the fuss has been over...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@RubyMae: Yes the 2nd of your variants was menat. At least I understand it that way.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
raystronaut: If that was the case, why do other German web sites have a more sensible policy?
And: Do you think anybody posting nazi insignia will flag them moderate, if they are completely legal in the US?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
mightyquinninlex -- with the localization they aquired German language forums, but the staff person there is only translating the staff messages here.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@strawberryblues: das ist ne aussage, was der spiegel denkt. bzw irgend ein typ den sie fragen. bisher gab es keine offiziellen angaben dazu.
aus dem bericht:
"Auf Anfrage von SPIEGEL ONLINE erklärte die deutsche Yahoo-Niederlassung, sie stehe nicht "für eine Stellungnahme zur Verfügung"
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
swisskiltbear "What you're quoting sounds much like the usual US Corporate lingo and explains nothing."
I 100% agree. My point was that when Stewart uses words like "decision" and "decide" a lot, he confirms that it wasn't something that just happened [or a "bug"], as some people here seem to believe.
At some point Yahoo/Flickr apparently decided that this was the way to go. Stupidly enough.
Edit: typos
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
ipernity.com/home/robert_k edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Flickr,
the main problem here is the communication. Flickr members might understand the reasoning behind the decision if it was well crafted and communicated in advance. This is my conclusion from most of the comments I've read.
From my experience in large corporations, I feel that Flickr/Yahoo hav failed miserably in this situation. If something like this is "rolled out" to one of the important markets (you don't want to ignore Germany, or do you?) then you should better prepare an offical statement along the rollout process. If you forget this, don't be surprised to find paying customers upset.
Finally, the main question unsolved so far is - WHY was this decision made? The majority of members from Germany apparently do not see the need for this. There have been some hefty discussions, and the consensus seems to be that the need for "filtering" (better: maintainance) of user generated content does ONLY apply for services that are hosted in Germany. Service is hosted in the U.S.? No need to filter.
Clarity is much needed and long overdue. Why nobody got up in the middle of the night (PST) is also beyond most members. And frankly, I too do not understand this. After all, Germany is not just a country that has 100 paying customers. The damage done to the Flickr brand is already huge.
Anyway, I am just glad that I did not sign up for a pro account.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
tillwe but I trust the flickr staff :)
My point is that a huge amount of this discussion is about not trusting flickr/flickr stuff/their statements.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Querulant edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
I agree strongly with Helter Skelter - advocating patience is the wrong approach.
The "official" Flickr response was frankly very weak and only served to highlight the ludicrous decision in the first place.
I understand the reasons behind their decision - but feel they reached the wrong conclusion and were too swayed by conservative lawyers. As a minimum they should re-instate moderate search to show good will.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
langsam bin ich es auch leid hier in dem scheiss forum abzuhängen und zu gucken ob dann doch mal einer was schreibt.
ich würde flickr gern wie gewohnt weiter nutzen, denn wirklich alternativen dazu gibts auch grad nicht. weder von den features her, noch von der anzahl der nutzer.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
For those who don't understand German, from sint's post:
Yahoo Germany refused to comment when asked by SPIEGEL ONLINE.
So more of the same, Nobody is talking, not to us not to the press.
Not surprising, really.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
swisskiltbear edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
what happend to the flickr stuff? Lunch break?
sint I translate this... On a request of the German major magazine Spiegel Online the German branch of Yahoo said they would be not give any statement!
Thats right?!
No Statement to the german press - not just a small magazine no the spiegel is the biggest one in Germany!
Great!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
A new Idea in the censorship question: Flag all nazi photos!
Some of us are speculating that the censorship of Flickr in Germany is because of in Germany Nazi photos and propaganda illegal in Germany.
I think it would be a good idea to test this theory by flagging Nazi photos as not safe (for review). This would also have the good effect of removing that drivel for other people who want to be safe (I consider Nazi propaganda not safe for e.g. Children).
I mean photos like this one:
www.flickr.com/photos/seanrayford/482945487/
that was public at the time I post this here.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
außerirdische sind gesund edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Querulant: I trusted Flickr staff, even thought them a bunch of really nice people (as fas as you can tell by joining some anonymous web service). I still hope that they are not really responsible for that decision, and that they find a way to undo it. But the longer I only hear about non-disclosure and "we are working at it", I'm slowly losing my trust in them.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@sind: true, true!
What about zooomr.com? On the frist glance this seems much like flickr. Or deviantart.com.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Walwyn -- German photo community seems to handle this without hardwired filtering, and without an army of human monitoring staff) -- but as long as we don't know, it's not really possible to go to some politicians or lawmakers.
@tillwe
This has nothing to do with German's monitoring themselves. But Americans, Brits, Russians, and citizens from 190+ other countries monitoring themselves in a way that complies with German regulations. If they don't and it gets viewed by Germans then flickr/yahoo would appear to be liable, unless they are monitoring all the uploads of 7,000,000 users. These liabilities don't occur in other countries hence their citizens aren't being restricted.
Lu posted this earlier but its probably got lost in the storm
www.flickr.com/photos/boxbox/548104545/
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@sint:
Sicher doch, aber sowas fordert Standhaftigkeit, es geht mir z.B. nicht darum dass ich keine Pornos auf Flickr schauen kann wegen dem Filter, was ich sowieso nicht machen würde (echt war, ob ihrs glaubt oder nicht), sondern dass die deutsche Bevölkerung in ihrer Freiheit eingeschränkt wird und ich, genauso wie viele andere hier, nicht einfach zusehen können, da das ganze sowieso auf keiner (zumindest mir bekannten) Rechtsgrundlage basiert. Und auf ein deutsches Gesetz etc. haben sie ja nicht hingewiesen. Ich wäre an einem Pro account interessiert gewesen (bin noch nicht sehr lange hier) aber ich werde mir keinen anschaffen und auch keine neuen Bilder posten bis diese Sache hier geregelt ist. Und geregelt ist sie erst wenn der Filter abschaltbar ist, oder wenn ein deutsches Gesetz den Filter vorschreibt. Dann wirds nämlich Zeit für Demonstrationen und Kritiken in Deutschland.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Sopperkuh: I don't think that's the way to go -- it's censorship too, and the picture you showed as example could be documentary photography (and that should be shown to children, to make sure they know that it is still necessary to fight against nazism). So I don't see how trying to block pictures like that will help bringing an uncensored Flickr back.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I aks myself:
1. Why was the content of flickr no problem for German authorities for a very, very long time and why is it now? And why I can't even see pictures that are totally fine according to German law?
2. If there is a problem why didn't we get any offical notice about that?
3. Now that it has happened why is there still no official explanation why they did this? It would at least calm down the mob if they knew what's going on.
The (non-)information policy of flickr is the main reason for the harsh protest I think. And when the weekend is coming some folks around Germany will have lots of time to keep...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
They still haven't answered this?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
no -.-
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
If they don't and it gets viewed by Germans then flickr/yahoo would appear to be liable
And if it is flagged save and germans view it they would appear liable, too. So this can't be the reason!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Lú, thank you again. ; )
I read them yesterday (though I don't even have a Yahoo ID based in Germany) but could not find anything in them that would restrict me from seeing pictures with - to state the most obvious example - breasts on them. But then I'm not a lawyer which is why I would like Flickr Staff to help me out here and tell me what they mean when they say that this whole thing is based on 'local terms'.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
There is no indication yet that flickr made this step because of any German law.
In fact, photos which may be illegal according to German law are not blocked (nazi stuff etc.).
Most of the blocked photos are not violating German regulations.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@sooperkuh: It's not just the Nazi-paraphernalia laws, but also any form of personal-rights violation, copyright infringement, juvenile-protection laws, you name them. Basically, that what I alluded to when I said that I thought the content rating system was not refined enough.
As for other websites, I assume (though this is just speculation) that they simply don't have the sheer volume of material to deal with that Flickr has. How many new pictures can there be on FotoCommunity per day? Maybe a few thousand?
@oc65: It's a tiny bit more complicated than that.
Flickr's stance is not: "We don't show anything that violates German law, so you can't sue us."
It's "We know we need to have some content check system in place to comply with German law, and look, we do! Our users check offensive content themselves."
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
bookhouse boy edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@R4mbo:
Ich bin sehr lange hier (bin bei meinem dritten Pro-Jahr) und habe gelernt, dass man sich auf das Wort von Steward verlassen kann.
Ich vertraue auch darauf, dass ich im Dezember meinen Pro-Account wieder um ein Jahr verlängeren kann, ohne an diese Juni-Tage zurückdenken zu müssen.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Walwyn: Okay, I see a point. But I guess other countries have similar regulations, what about the US computer decency act -- whatever it's name -- and so on?. And this point is true only if all this is really about "Forenhaftung". I don't understand why this couldn't be communicated by Flickr staff, if that is the point. What is so non-disclosurable about the sentence: "We try to comply with German jurisdiction on user-generated content."?
And if this is really the problem -- which I do not think -- maybe it would be an option that one can either use a hardwire-filtered "flickr.de" or stay with a decidedly non-German -- but usable by Germans -- "flickr.com" in English language, if one want's to decide this for oneself.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Hello Flickr admins,
have a look in our "German Ilustarted Magazines". I think we don´t have laws,
which can cause these flickr restrictions.
The block in in the head of some peole. (trolls??)
What flickr seems to make moderate is safe stuff in all German newspapers and TV shows!!!.
Who the fuck is the reason?
I even can´t see all shots of my groups (adult) or my freinds shots in a slideshow. All black!!
That´s not cool. Please help!!!
PS.
Is there a flickr admin T R O LL, who gets money to destroy flickr.?
Watch your own castle.
Germany is not old-fashined!
Have a funny work, open flickr like it was before!!
Kill the german language --
if this is a problem. All pupils have to learn english, so what ?
LOL
eg .#my faves# is translated in #meine Freunde#, daß ich nicht lache, das sind #Lieblingsbilder#!!!!!
#my faves# in the slideshow means not# my friends#!!!
Ciao eagel0ne Germany
over and out
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
eagle2effi edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
George,staff member says: "We encourage everyone to apply appropriate safety levels to all of their content, even if it's private. That's really just to be on the safe side, and is not an official policy."
Perhaps, but people with friends only photos have had their accounts marked unsafe by Flickr for not marking those images. So unofficial or not, you are acting against folks who thought they were following the rules by making their images Friends only.
And of course, such photostreams are totally (all their images) invisible to folks in the proscribed countries.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Most of the blocked photos are not violating German regulations.
Which leads us back to the most important question. flickr has to answer thw Why?-question or at least tell us, which part of why they did not understand.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"Forenhaftung", which is mentioned by a few posters before is part of a recent ruling by judge in the city hamburg. This ruling has been attacked from almost every angle in the german it press and blogsphere. Meanwhile the opposing party objected this ruling and the case will move on to the next higher judicial authority. This is not even remotely a accepted ruling, let alone a law. According to this ruling every webhost(board, blog and, yes, imagehost) is liable for every content posted by their users. They would literally be required to review every content manually.
George, you seem to mis the point here. You are talking about properly classifying images. We are talking about not being able to find, let alone view, properly classified, legal, non-offensive images.
Ignoring, for a second, the fact that Censoring is bad™, your way of "protecting" us (yourself) is simply flawed. Flagging a image as anything but "safe" doesnt make it unsuitable to watch for a entire country. You either have a bad understanding of how societies decide whats suitable for public display and whats not or you simply failed in building a age verification and choose this blunt maneuver in order to make flickr "safe" for all ages. Either way you failed.
The fact that you weren't able to foresee this problem and the resulting reaction of your users and the fact that no one over there seems to be able to clearly communicate your motives and/or current problems shows that you failed a second time.
Stop trying to defend what was flawed from the start. Communicate. Explain the problem. Explain your thoughts. Explain your troubles. Listen to our response. Thank you
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Drevor edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
Flickr already have a reasonable content-checking system in place, that's what they decided to use - rather than have employees go through, what, 500 million photos one by one.
@ raystronaut
It doesn't work. What might be illegal in Germany: Nazi Propaganda, hate speech isn't illegal elsewhere in the world. If the content happens to be posted from someone in the US flickr might not be able to moderate it.
You might not be able to not have your censorship and have it at the same time.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Salon and BoingBoing are reporting.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
tillwe edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
tillwe: Yes, of course it is a form of censorship, but I do not feel sorry for Nazi images. The whole point of this would be to show Flickr that their US standards (tits bad, swastika good) are not that appropriate for a global service. If we get rid of some of the latter in the process: good ridance.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
interesting how flickr/yahoo try to protect their a** while people like rebekka that got their property stolen don't get any help/support from them until too many people start to complain. flickr isn't about community, it's about money. It started well but the outcome should have been predictable...
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
sooperkuh: but that are not nazi images, but images showing nazis. That's a small, but important difference, isn't it?
(Edit: E.g. from the profil from the user your picture was taken:
The Columbia City Paper is Columbia's (South Carolina) only locally owned alternative newsweekly. The City Paper is published every other week in downtown and surrounding areas.
We use this to publish online photo storys. Our official website is columbiacitypaper.com
That's something to support, not to block. Not even as part of a protest.)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
tillwe edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@ tillwe
I don't know. But assuming that flickr/yahoo aren't entirely mendacious. perhaps they are trying to work a way through the problem without 'being seen' to be forcing the issue. Also assuming that they aren't stupid perhaps they knew exactly what would happen they went ahead anyway >:)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Walwyn: Again, it probably doesn't need to "work" in every case. It just needs to be reasonably effective to protect Flickr from litigation.
Also, just to be clear, I'm not saying that I like any of this. It's a semi-easy way out of an obviously stupid situation. But I'll also say this: If I manage to get my German friends who are uncomfortable with the English language to join Flickr, which I find otherwise unrivaled in functionality and community -- then I'll put up with this for a while.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
my understanding is that the safesearch setting trumps private
Yes, that's right. An example might help clarify what I'm trying to explain. Let's say you and I are reciprocal contacts. I publish a photo that I flag as moderate and for friends only. You have your SafeSearch on. When you look at photos from your friends, or my photostream, you will see one of those placeholder graphics (the black and white fuzzy ones) indicating that there is content there that's outside your SafeSearch level. However, if I want to share privately, and the photo is "safe" within my private network, I can go ahead and mark it as safe.
Therefore, setting "moderate" or restricted photos to friends/family and marking my German contacts friends/family will not help, as they can only view photos marked as safe (regardless of the contact level).
That is the current situation, yes.
But what if I want to show a photo that should be maked "moderate" to my contacts only and one of my contacts "complain" about it by clicking the "review this photo" thingy?
That's their right to do so, and may indicate that you need to have a chat with your friend or vice versa. Given that it would be an explicit action on the part of your friend to click through to the content, some responsiblity rests on her shoulders
George, you seem to mis the point here. You are talking about properly classifying images. We are talking about not being able to find, let alone view, properly classified, legal, non-offensive images.
I apologise if my responses here have confused matters. Believe me, I'm well aware of the broader point. I'm attempting to stick to the facts and clarify where possible while we continue to work through the issue fully.
On a personal note, the tension in here is understandable and palpable - no doubt about that. Thank you to those who are trying to help keep things calm.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Question for German users, honestly: Would German users prefer to not have the German language option and go back to how things were before, without the blocking?
if i got to choose i would DEFINITELY choose to not have the german language option. i've been here for over three years totally fine in english. i just wish they would have given us the option BEFORE they just decided to censor what i get to see and what not... :(
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@tilwe: I think you are not supposed to show pictures of nazis if they can be understood as nazi propaganda. That photo would IMHO be illegal if it was the cover of a magazine, unless there is some explanatory text.
But all these problems are Flickr's in the future, not of the person flagging.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Allanimal: that's a bit tasteless, isn't it?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
It seems to me after going out reading a little bit about German lay and how it affects internet content Flickr is just protecting itself from some strangely strict laws. They not only hold large...very large fines but jail time as well. It seems these people should maybe point this protest toward there law makers. Looser laws may stop silly things like this...I would expect this in more conservative countries...(such as the US)...so this comes as a surprise...So investigate and question you local laws..this seems to be the issue here...I do agree Yahoo/Flickr have really drop the ball on this and should address this and have a more open dialogs..Openness will keep you from losing credibility....
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
IF FLICKR DOESNOT REACT QUICKLY; THE SERVERS MIGHT BE KILLED WITH SPAM: MY Yahooo, and posts and shots cause protest is going on
--------------
I see the info-shots agains censorship on most account. Thanks my fleckreenos. Today Germany, next time e.g Italy ?
This is wast power, and every minute we post more.
¿WE
make new accounts only to kill the system, is that the solution?
Aren´t we a world wide community??
Laws are behind the reality of internet. All new is devil. Even my Marilyn Monroe (art/boobs) pics, change flickr to moderate, what is going on??
next day will be better, i hope !!!!
This discussion,
I will watch on #my yahoo#, every minute a new post. Good by server!!
over and out eagleone
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Arg.... to the Nazi-Propaganda... why don't you just make a "report bad content" button somewhere on the page like some other sites do, and shit on all other, unneccesary, complicated solutions?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Allanimal: Yeah, I think this thread just jumped the shark.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
By the way, as someone of Jewish descent whose recent ancestors were killed in the holocaust, all this comparison of flickr to the Nazi regime and this "censorship" to the holocaust is really insulting.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
R4mbo: such a thing is there already (or at least it was, maybe it changed with the filters...)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@allanimal: this is more then tasteless and doesn't help.
@RubyMae: as someone in the same situation I agree with you
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
hooped socks (gone) edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
funkaoshi: just?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
The Searcher edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@mcb:
i allready got an account on zooomr. but its not because of anything that happens to flickr. i was just interested in any new features and registered myself back in 2006.
its nice, but its buggy and its far away from the power of flickr.
and deviantart is full of emostuff with some strange admins. if they change some policy and users start to protest, you'll end up banned. thats it ... i've been there for years.
photo.net sucks, cause you can upload just 5 to 10 images without paying.
smugmug sucks for no free accounts.
flickr was my first place to be, for photography. :(
@r4mbo:
ja, klar fordert das standhaftigkeit. aber leider hab ich neben dem leben bei flickr noch ein paar andere sachen zu erledigen. ich bin gern hier und guck nun schon seit 2 tagen hier stets und ständig rein. poste hier und da und es tut sich nix.
keiner der admins schreibt mal was sinnvolles!
falls es am ende doch an irgendwelchen gesetzen und deren auslegung von yahoo geht, bezweifel ich ein wenig das sich wegen einer zensur bei flickr etwas bewegt bei den politikern. eher denk ich das leute wie schäuble, erst mal richtig feiern. die haben ja endlich was sie wollen: zensur!
wieso geht denn keiner auf die strasse, wenn es um kriminalisierung von software, bundestrojaner oder anderen sachen geht. bei g8 waren alle .. und? passiert ist nix, ausser das steine geflogen sind und unschuldige getroffen wurden.
um nicht zu weit vom thema abzuweichen:
ich bin hier auch nicht um pornos zu gucken. dafür gibts ja wohl genug andere seiten im netz. aber dennoch guck ich auch mal bei den bekannten aktfotografen vorbei, zumal ich selbst auch akt fotografiere.
so wie es aussieht, brauch ich in zukunft wohl nix mehr davon hochladen. wird wohl eh keiner mehr sehen ...
das image von flickr ist jetzt schon im eimer, die presse schlecht ... was soll denen noch passieren, wenn die den filter drin lassen?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
Sebastian Schubanz edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
If Flickr decides that it will choose what I can see my first pro-account purchase will have been my last.
They are about to screw a great thing up.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
They not only hold large...very large fines but jail time as well.
Large fines is something that is more common in the US.
So investigate and question you local laws..this seems to be the issue here
So what should we ask 'em? Hey, lawmaker, flickr is banning us, so please change the law. But you have to guess which one, because flickr doesn't tell us.
I said this before: We are punished and don't even know what we are accused of.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
The Searcher: Yeah, I guess I'm being generous with my assessment of things. Still, at the very least, I don't think anyone claimed this was like the Holocaust up till now.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
funkaoshi edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@sooperkuh: No, it wouldn't. Schau Dir eifnach mal den Wikipedia-Eintrag hier an -- es sind ganz bestimmte Symbole und Gesten (wie der Hitlergruß), die als solche illegal sind. (Oder eine ausführliche Erläuterung hier).
Oder direkt von der Quelle:
§ 86a
Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen
(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer
1. im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder
2. Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.
(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.
(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.
(§86a Strafgesetzbuch)
((That's the German law that prohibits the showing of nazi symbols))
((Edit))
§86
...
(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.
(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen.
Together, this means: only if you show nazi symbols for propagating nazi ideology, you are not allowed to show them, according to German law. If you show them as part of an artwork, in an scientific or journalistic context or use them to as part of propaganda against nazi ideology, you are allowed to show them.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
tillwe edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
I really don't understand why they had to "include Germany" as they said. Since there is absolutely no benefit for German Flickr users. They are trying to sell it to us like this:
"It's not a bug, it's a feature!"
I will stop uploading pictures, and if the problem is not solved by the end of the month I will quit Flickr.
Why isn't Flickr giving adult people the opportunity to edit their safe search filter for themselfes? I am old enough not to be treated like a child.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Why you just dont give the possibility to turn the safe filter off in germany. Give me a reason coherently to a law which apply for german people.
And please don't ignore me.
And please don't say "we're working on it, blabla", this is the wrong way, if you cant give out the information which we want, your boss or the person which is responsible for this mess should give a statement. If he dont like to do it, because he decided wrong or is just a *****, the anger of all these people here is justified and the this page should get what it deserves.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Unless Flickr were to change some more of its policies, there's nothing wrong with posting nazi imagery or propaganda on here (from a rules point of view) as "safe" imagery. That's against the law in Germany, but not in the U.S. and most other places. So this blocking wouldn't block that stuff at all.
And considering how so many people are suddenly fond of using such imagery for their "protests", that should be quite clear.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Arg.... to the Nazi-Propaganda... why don't you just make a "report bad content" button somewhere on the page like some other sites do, and shit on all other, unneccesary, complicated solutions?
You mean, the method eBay uses to deal with Nazi related sales, and allows eBay to function inside of Germany?
No, that would make too much sense.
the tension in here is understandable and palpable - no doubt about that.
And will continue to escalate (as well as in the media) until flickr actually DOES something, or responds with REAL CONTENT.
Keeping a lid on it will only bring it to a boil faster. The orginal situation was a real SNAFU, but the last 24 hours have been abyssmal and contributed far more to user anger and frustration than they have helped.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Disclaimer my father was one of the youngest volunteers in the International Brigade in Spain.
The problem is that Nazi-Propaganda isn't "bad content" in many countries, so even if it were flagged flickr wouldn't necessarily delete it.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Also assuming that they aren't stupid perhaps they knew exactly what would happen they went ahead anyway >:)
@Walwyn, I fear you may be giving them too much credit here. This wouldn't be the first time that a US company is taken completely by surprise by the reactions to their actions.
AOL went belly up in Switzerland years ago over "unexpected customer reactions to service changes". Actually "public outrage" would be the apt description of what happened and they were more or less "tarred, feathered and driven out of town" without ever really understanding what had hat just happened to them, because "it wasn't supposed to go that way".
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I have a solution,
flickr rates all shots safe or
--------------------------moderate or
-------------------------restricted or
-------------------------german safe
LOL LOL LOL
so all is ok.
PS allanimals digitalretouch, he is angry, but we are not amused of this shot!!! Sorry flickr community!
ciao eagleone
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
From the BabelFish translation of the Spiegel Online article:
"From this spongelike formulation does not follow, by which German laws Flickr sees itself forced to the obligation filtering."
And who can argue with that?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@sint:
Oh ja, da mit Schäuble geb ich dir Recht, ich frag mich auch dauernd warum unser Volk nichts dagegen tut, denke die Hauptgründe sind einmal Faulheit, weil die meisten denken es ist sowieso sinnlos oder nicht wissen was sie dagegen tuen sollen und dann sind da noch die Halbwahrheiten die durch unsere Bildzeitung die meiner Meinung nach einen viel zu großen Einfluss auf unsere Bürger hat, verbreitet werden.
Es ist einfach nur Schade dass das jetzt so abläuft, ich war bis jetzt sehr zufrieden mit Flickr und hatte viel Spaß aber was die jetzt machen is einfach scheiße.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
as I understand it, the problem isn't that flickr had a moderation system or how are the creteria to moderate for example a swastika
The problem is that flickr treats the people of whole country's like childs and refuse to give those people to decide for THEMSELF if they want "safe search" aka. censored Flickr experience or not.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@swisskiltbear
You'd think that the as flickr has seen these things a bit in the last six months, they'd be aware of what was likely to happen.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Hey Gary where is the link to spiegel online, the translation is trash!
Danke für den link unten.
Der Artikel hat keine Tiefe. Das ist kein user!
St. Florians Prinzip, doppelte Moral ( double standing) , Feigenblatt!
Was soll das, wenn ich mit meinem zweiten account auf yahoo.com alles darf, auch als Deutscher ?
Da wird es bald ein tool geben, das alle Bolder auf yahoo.com rüberschleift.
Schöne neue Welt
All pigs are equal, but some are more ( now flickrs motto!)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
eagle2effi edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,488542,00.html
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
they don't even treat us like childs...
because childs have rights... german Flickr users don't!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
The problem is that flickr treats the people of whole country's like childs and refuse to give those people to decide for THEMSELF if they want "safe search" aka.
No, the main issue is not beeing treated like a child but not beeing told, we you get treated like a child.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Regarding patience: just like tolerance, it is a virtue that only makes sense when it is not easy to stand by it. Being patient when nothing is at stake, and you're not really waiting for anything is cheap.
More generally: yes, this was a stupid and obviously not very well planned move on Yahoo!'s part. But having seens Flickr staff in action for two and a half years now, I trust them to work on this in our best interest, and to communicate when there is something to communicate.
Meanwhile I'd be glad if all the Nazi, fashism and totalitarianism talk ceased. There is zero indication that this sitaution has anything to do with the Verbot verfassungsfeindlicher Symbole, and constantly seeing these dire parallels invoked mindlessly is not a pretty sight. This is not comparable on any level to totalitarian censoring by a government, and to indicate it is, or use concentration camp imagery to make a point, is indeed tasteless and politically self defeating.
Get some sense of perspective. There are photos some people have flagged as being questionable, for whatever good or bad reason, and now Germans can't unflag them, for whatever other good or bad, probably intricately legalese reason. A stupid situation, agreed, but not really just cause for this immense ruckus and namecalling.
Make a ruckus when Schäuble tries to gut our human rights (yes, I'm German, too. No, I still don't think western civilization just ended in black noise). And just give this mess a few days to clean up.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Ja, wäre auch interessant zu sehen was passieren würde wenn Schäuble sich im Internet zum kommentieren zur Verfügung stellen würde.. :-D
(wahrscheinlich dasselbe wie jetzt hier. Aber E-Democracy.. dat dauert noch, if ever. Shythe eigentlich, oder?)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
from what i don't get:
why is everyone complaining about german laws?
is this official now??
maybe it was santa claus, who told flickr crew won't get gifts next xmas!?
maybe flick crew got enlightend last week and decided to do this?!
MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE ... i would love to hears some TRUTH!!!
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
"From this spongelike formulation does not follow, by which German laws Flickr sees itself forced to the obligation filtering."
Hahaha... I want that on a t-shirt.
Perhaps presented as a verse:
From this spongelike
Formulation
Does not follow, by
Which German
Laws
Flickr sees Itself
Forced to the obligation
Filtering.
On a more serious note, what point were they trying to make?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
scribeoflight edited this topic 60 months ago.
|
|
|
@scribe: "the formulation (Flickr's) was so vague that it isn't clear which German law is the reason for the filtering"
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
What's really disconcerting is the lack of information from the STAFF !
Do they all wear a muzzle?
For germans it's strange to recognize a lack of moral courage in such a case. (Americans told us a lesson some decades ago!)
Yahoo is surely not organized in a democratic way. But what the hell is 'civil courage' good for when only shown in safe cirumstances?
May be flickr was sold for a lentil soup and its founders made evil contracts - but they are still there and I can't imagine that all their spirit has spirited away!
So: What's on? G e t o u t o f y o u r h i d e o u t s !
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
vieleicht sollten wir mal hier posten: www.direktzurkanzlerin.de ;)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Wenn die sich jetzt wirklich auf Gesetze stützen, würde ich vorschlagen die Bildzeitung zu unserem Verbündeten zu machen und über den ganzen Vorgang zu informieren, wenn genügend Leute sich dort melden, dürfte deren interesse geweckt sein. Wenn dann die Bildzeitung einen Beitrag zu diesem "Gesetz" auf das sich gestützt wird schreibt, würden genügend Leute empört darüber sein, sodass eine Gesetzesänderung bzw. ein Rücktritt der Person auf der der Mist gewachsen ist unabwendbar ist. Eigentlich steh ich der Bildzeitung kritisch gegenüber, aber sie scheint die einzig wirkungsvolle Waffe gegen Fehlentscheidungen in unserem Staat zu sein. Man muss sie nur nutzen. Is halt alles Spekulation, vlt kommt die Flickr Staff ja mit einer anderen Ausrede als einem Gesetz.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
Regarding patience: just like tolerance, it is a virtue that only makes sense when it is not easy to stand by it. Being patient when nothing is at stake, and you're not really waiting for anything is cheap.
More generally: yes, this was a stupid and obviously not very well planned move on Yahoo!'s part. But having seens Flickr staff in action for two and a half years now, I trust them to work on this in our best interest, and to communicate when there is something to communicate.
Meanwhile I'd be glad if all the Nazi, fashism and totalitarianism talk ceased. There is zero indication that this sitaution has anything to do with the Verbot verfassungsfeindlicher Symbole, and constantly seeing these dire parallels invoked mindlessly is not a pretty sight. This is not comparable on any level to totalitarian censoring by a government, and to indicate it is, or use concentration camp imagery to make a point, is indeed tasteless and politically self defeating.
Get some sense of perspective. There are photos some people have flagged as being questionable, for whatever good or bad reason, and now Germans can't unflag them, for whatever other good or bad, probably intricately legalese reason. A stupid situation, agreed, but not really just cause for this immense ruckus and namecalling.
*thumbsup* very well said! :)
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I've sent an account review request to flickr. So far it has been reviewed as safe, but who knows how it will be reviewed now that censorship has been introduced? I'm not used to dictatorial regimes.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
To lighten things up around here, we could perhaps have a sweepstake about when an official explanation will be made. We could open up a Paypal account to receive the donations, and whoever gets closest to the announcement time gets the jackpot.
To start things off I'll put my $1 down for 14h56m GMT on 17th June.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
I'm not used to dictatorial regimes.
I'm pretty sure in a real dictatorship you could bitch and moan about the dictators in a forum provided by them.
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
|
|
@Jim: what year?
Posted 60 months ago.
( permalink
)
|
Feed – Subscribe to help discussion threads