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Old Skool Pro Account Refund Process
The reason we said "no" to offering refunds was that it is a lot more expensive than just the pro account money: the amount we'd refund is trivial, but since Yahoo! is a public company and has to comply with all kinds of accounting regulations (and now the Sarbanes-Oxley Act) and we don't have any existing process for this, it'd mean a lot of meeting with the legal and account and tax teams and a fully manual process. (And on top of that, we felt like 18 months for this "final notice" and the six weeks at the end was plenty for people to just chose not to renew.)
Despite current thinking, we're not evil and we don't want this to dominate the conversation, so I'll just pay the refund myself so it doesn't have to be giant process. The money will just come from my personal PayPal account and no receipts sent or anything. And that means you'll have to FlickrMail me personally to let me know.
Refunds can only be made via PayPal and will be be prorated from the date of your request to the expiration date of your pro fees ($0.068356164 per day -- rounded up to the nearest cent). You must include an email address that we can send the funds to. You must send me your refund request prior to 3/15/07.
Once your pro fees have been refunded, your account will be downgraded to a "free account" (here's the FAQ on what to expect). If you change your mind, you'll need to pro your account via our regular upgrade process.
Please note: this only applies to members who created their Flickr accounts prior to 8/15/05 and purchased a pro account for themselves. Gifts given or received are not applicable.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Bruce Sterling writes, February 1, 2007:
"*Look, FlickR, I completely understand your commercial reasons for doing this, but I don't trust Yahoo. You were once a groovy little photo club while Yahoo is way, way into massive datamining. I don't want to belong to Yahoo any more than I'd want to belong to msn.com or googlemail. Of course I'm already aware that Yahoo is combing all those tags and photos looking for something they can sell me, or sell about me --- but my refusal to join Yahoo! served as one small political indicator that I rather like FlickR and don't like invasive Web 1.0 behemoths. To have Yahoo imperially dictating these measures to me doesn't make me like Yahoo any better. It would cost Yahoo NOTHING to allow me to sign in by another method; the fact that they insist on my reduction to yahoo-hood is a tactless indicator of their bad intent.
*I'm an old-skool member for old-skool reasons. The fact that you don't mention those reasons in this oleaginous piece of PR is alarming. What, I'm supposed to do this because "ninety-five percent" of the other kids play nicely? Come on. A peer-pressure argument, that's what's in it for me? If ninety-five percent of the other Flickreenos sold out to Big Brother, would you pinch your nose and jump right into the cesspool, too?
I don't gain any benefit by this. Where's my value proposal? There's nothing in this proposal for me. You are exploiting your Web 2.0 social muscle and twisting my arm here. Is that FlickR -like behavior? Aren't you a little ashamed of yourselves? Google would have at least done a few dont-be-evil headfakes around a bald power maneuver like this. No wonder they're wiping the floor with Yahoo."
Posted 65 months ago.
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heather (staff) edited this topic 65 months ago.
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as a public company you might only understand the loss of members then...
still no change in your decision eh ?
Posted 65 months ago.
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zota: It seems that at least 5% of all Flickr users would very much like to have this new feature. Could you please make it a priority?
I think the statistic was that 5% of users are presently signing in the old way. That's probably gone down a bit in the last few hours. And anyway, a number of that 5% (and who knows what proportion they represent) have said in this and other threads that their failure to switch login methods is a matter of inertia, or laziness, and that they really don't care one way or the other. A more interesting figure might be the percentage of users who have joined (or are active in) protest groups.
Posted 65 months ago.
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And one final comment from the blogosphere.... (I found all these within the first dozen hits searching technorati.com on the keywords "flickr" and "yahoo" limiting to the most influential blogs only)
It’s deeply ironic that the day after Fred Wilson posted a thoughtful list of everything he has learned from Flickr, which he calls the “Seminal Web 2.0 Service,” there’s a user revolt at Flickr over some changes to the system: limits to contacts and tags, and requiring users to adopt the Yahoo ID login. Thomas Hawk has a laundry list of quotes from irate Flickr users.
Users disliking changes to a system is certainly nothing new. And it would be naive of any of the parties involved to believe that Flickr could have remained an island unto itself after the Yahoo acquisition. And Flickr staff have given perfectly rational reasons for all of the changes that they made.
BUT, this type of user revolt (see Facebook user revolt, etc.) will become increasingly common for “empty vessel” platforms that depend on users for all of their content and who pass out a lot of (albeit heartfelt) Kool-aid about community.
When you buy software, you feel a certain sense of entitlement as a user, based on having paid for the software. New versions of the software are released, and users don’t like new features or the disappearance of old ones — it’s nothing new.
But when your activity on a web service platform is literally making that service what it is, i.e. without your use, the service itself would be diminished, that brings user entitlement to a whole new level. Flickr users know they made Flickr what it is, so their ire over changes to the system is magnified.
As with other instances of user revolt, most unhappy Flickr users will eventually calm down. They will realize that such changes are inevitable — and any user who thinks Flickr should be able to continue providing infinite capacity in its own little universe are naive about the realities of big business. Of course, that doesn’t mean they have to like it.
The lesson here is that the relationship between users and empty vessel web services is unique in the history of user/technology relationships — and user/media relationships, for that matter, given the bleed over. The sense of ownership is now just based on use — it’s based on the users’ content actually bringing the service to life. So while Flickr, Facebook, and YouTube, as traditional corporate owners of the service, can technically do anything they want — and they will surely have valid business reasons for wanting to make changes — they are ultimately beholden to their users.
"Just ask Friendster."
Posted 65 months ago.
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heather (staff) edited this topic 65 months ago.
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 Please note: this only applies to members who created their Flickr accounts prior to 8/15/05 and purchased a pro account for themselves.
Does that mean that they purchased their latest "pro-ness" before 8/15/05? Or if they renewed last week?
I'm only asking, 'coz, you know, someone has to. ;)
Posted 65 months ago.
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Thank you Heather
I shall now take you off My List of Evil people :)
Posted 65 months ago.
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Heather;
[1] make sure you can claim this back as expenses :) I am sure people don't want your personal money.
[2] "And on top of that, we felt like 18 months for this "final notice" and the six weeks at the end was plenty for people to just chose not to renew."
Did you? I must have missed this, as first thing I heard about a Yahoo account being mandatory is when I recieved the mail yesterday. hence why I renewed only last december not knowing this was decided and would be implemented soon.
Posted 65 months ago.
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re: "And anyway, a number of that 5% (and who knows what proportion they represent) have said in this and other threads that their failure to switch login methods is a matter of inertia, or laziness, and that they really don't care one way or the other."
by jonhughes
FYI: a number of us have said our decisions are still out for consideration AND many have said that they intend to wait for the last possible moment to make the change.
I am in this group, and I believe I am in a small but significant group of Old Skoolers who think this way.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Quiplash, dude... please! Save my eyesite and stop with the mega linking. Would be greatly appreciated. Don't make me start deleting your comments.
Posted 65 months ago.
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You know, as stupid as it sounds (and probably is), the *very least* you guys could do is give us little badges below our photo (like "Staff") that say "old skool".
This community has a relationship with Flickr and like any good relationship there is a level of giving and taking. You're taking something from us, so give us something in return...
Posted 65 months ago.
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Does that mean that they purchased their latest "pro-ness" before 8/15/05? Or if they renewed last week?
Either.
Posted 65 months ago.
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heather : The topic link to the refund process doesn't work, because in the meantime it's already on page 15 ;-)
FYI only
Posted 65 months ago.
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@Heather & colleagues:
Hey guys sorry you're being flamed beyond all reason.
On behalf of the mostly silent majority: who cares?
You got bought by Yahoo, and it became impractical to run two systems. Big whoop.
These things happen, it's not suddenly added a set of horns to you (although perhaps an idea for halloween next year - something similar to adding a note of 'ho ho ho horns'?).
You're still the same set of lovely smiley happy folks, and I appreciate your hard work and patient replies. I hope you're not having an incredibly bad day because of all of this.
*hugs*
Posted 65 months ago.
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Pandarine, fixed.
:-)
Posted 65 months ago.
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A more interesting figure might be the percentage of users who have joined (or are active in) protest groups.
Protest groups represent only the most outraged minority -- each person who is that vocally angry probably represents hundreds who are merely upset or disgruntled. A more interesting figure would be to ask all the users of Flickr if they'd like the freedom to use any address they want, with the freedom to change it at will. I bet it's a lot more than 5%.
Another interesting figure:
What percentage of Pro accounts are currently "Old Skool"?
Here's another:
What's the ratio of free vs paid users on Flickr? (I'm going to guess roughly 20:1)
Another:
To what degree does Yahoo's business model rely on advertising to "free" subscribers? (I'm going to guess roughly 95%)
Posted 65 months ago.
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I always admire your speed in fixing things, Kevin! ;-)
Posted 65 months ago.
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Hey "Flickreenos",
"Your everlasting summer, you can see it fadin' fast
So you grab a piece of somethin' that you think is gonna last
Well, you wouldn't even know a diamond if you held it in your hand
The things you think are precious I can't understand"
You used to be cool, Flickr :(
Posted 65 months ago.
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Oh, I need to add, Flickr Staff is exempt from refunds (I'm not looking at you Ben or mroth!)
Posted 65 months ago.
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Perfect post at this time @zota!
Posted 65 months ago.
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I've not seen such internet hatred since Jar Jar Binks. Calm down guys, it's just a different login. It has worked with no problems at all for me for quite some time now (I was a member before the buy-out). Get some perspective.
Posted 65 months ago.
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You know, as stupid as it sounds (and probably is), the *very least* you guys could do is give us little badges below our photo (like "Staff") that say "old skool".
I agree...
It is stupid. Jeez, this is not a vanity thing people!
Posted 65 months ago.
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You know, as stupid as it sounds (and probably is), the *very least* you guys could do is give us little badges below our photo (like "Staff") that say "old skool".
what difference would that make? nobody could tell whether you were oldskool before... and I doubt it would, erm, benefit the community if some people went around brandishing such obvious badges of patina'd honour. (having a "joined ...whenever" blurb on people's profile would be good in general, but not for that reason. and oops, I've already said that somewhere upthread.)
This community has a relationship with Flickr and like any good relationship there is a level of giving and taking. You're taking something from us, so give us something in return...
absolutely. but I'd rather have something useful than something showy.
Posted 65 months ago.
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@katrientje: From the old - now changed - flickr signin faq thingy:
"Please note that we will be migrating all independent Flickr accounts to Yahoo!'s network in 2006. At that time, if you have not done so already, you will be asked to create a Yahoo! ID (or link your account to your Yahoo! ID if you already have one) in order to continue using your account. We'll provide further details about the merge as the date approaches."
So it's come later than anticipated, still sux though.
Posted 65 months ago.
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The day Google Calendar was released I canceled my Yahoo account. I don't want to go back. (And, btw, I still receive Yahoo Calendar email alerts).
Posted 65 months ago.
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As an old-skooler (well, in joining time frame - my first image upload is Nov 9, 2004) who merged his account not long after the merging was first introduced... seriously people, don't you think you might be over reacting here? It was clear from when it was introduced that this would eventually become required.
As for demanding a refund because they've changed the sign in form? Wah? I'm amazed.
Note: I've read the entire thread. All (currently) 15 pages of it.
Posted 65 months ago.
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thepatrick edited this topic 65 months ago.
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MacIomhair wrote: Calm down guys, it's just a different login.
People who don't read the thread and don't understand the MANY, SERIOUS objections to this should stop embarrassing themselves with asinine comments like that.
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for any of my points to be addressed.
Posted 65 months ago.
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@Heather:
Sorry 'bout that.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Just to clarify -- I don't want a little badge and I don't care at all about what form I use to log in. I have problems with Yahoo's ID system. Or more accurately, Yahoo's ID system has serious problems.
I'd also like to point out that Flickr and Yahoo have had 18 months to clarify all these issues. But it took them until today -- after 1400 comments and getting bashed from one side of the web to the other -- for them to finally update the FAQ to suggest that Flickr accounts probably won't get erased if the Yahoo ID barfs.
So please don't scold the hold-outs for inertia or laziness. Personally I've been waiting patiently for some clarity on these issues. And after a year and a half, I'm still waiting.
Posted 65 months ago.
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For those of you who don't understand what all the fuss is about: This excerpt from the blog Media Influencer *perfectly* describes why people are getting so upset over what seems to be only a minor change.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Please don't do it!
Posted 65 months ago.
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Heather, I'm willing to donate to your refund fund. Can I get a badge too, like "Old Skool Early Adopter" (since I joined before 8/15/05 but merged long ago)? [Oh, I still want a kitten too]
Posted 65 months ago.
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My bank changed its login system a few months ago. Some crap about security. I believed them then, but now I am not so sure. Now I realise that they are really planning to steal my money (at least to a greater extent than they already do).
Posted 65 months ago.
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maybe the reason they were so slow to add to the faq was because the vast majority of current Flickr users already use Yahoo to sign in, and those issues have simply failed to materialize. It's been beta-tested for over a year now. How about before attacking Flickr with your wide array of concerns, you maybe spend some time in forums and groups and ask Yahoo-login users about their experiences. There's about 6 MILLION of them you could ask, who seem to have not exploded so far.
...stop embarrassing themselves with asinine comments like that.
Look up, dude. that there's a big glass house over your head, so you may want to put that rock down.
[PS: Heather, if the refund thing gets out of hand, I'll contribute too. But I want a badge, something like "bought old-skool members a ticket to the world".]
Posted 65 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 65 months ago.
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Hummmm....you get your bowels in an uproar about a different log on, I am far more concerned with the use of photos posted to Flickr by Yahoo, or any other party, without permission.
Posted 65 months ago.
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re: R.I.Pienaar
thx
(that will teach me for not reading faq's :))
Posted 65 months ago.
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@gstrader: dude, learn to read. the biggest concern we have with the switch is that we have to sign the yahoo TOS and be subject to their shady practices and dodgy legal fine print, its got nothing to do with the URL or the sign in form look and feel - heck you only ever see the thing once per pc if you use flickr a lot, its a non issue.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Heather, I'm willing to donate to your refund fund.
Oh thanks... that's sweet. Don't worry, I'm going to get Stewart to cough up.
Posted 65 months ago.
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R.I.Pienaar Have you looked at the Yahoo ToS? Could you point out what is dodgy about them? Essentially they say "We claim sufficient rights to protect ourselves if some fruitloop turns nasty, but no more". They are a hell of a lot better than most conditions when you put a photo on the web. Have you ever looked at the copyright stuff if you think of entering an online contest? I have, and I have never entered a contest.
Posted 65 months ago.
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The Searcher: maybe the reason they were so slow to add to the faq was because the vast majority of current Flickr users already use Yahoo to sign in
I think you were reading the "straw man" FAQ. The section of the FAQ I was referring to is for people who are merging their accounts. Which is relevant only to people who have not merged their accounts.
Posted 65 months ago.
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@R.I.Pienaar, then one would have to suppose that you have no recourse, either submit or take you photos, and membership dues, and go elsewhere. That would be a shame. I just think all this is overblown.
I do understand that the OLD SCHOOL members of Flickr have a certian pride in that they are a part of something that became very sucessful... You all were a part of it.
If what you really object to is losing that OLD School idenity, then I would propose to Flickr Staff, that they simply issue a Red Star to your names, as Old School Members. In this way you can retain that status, and everybody is happy.
What about it Heather, you can give em all a Red Star!
Posted 65 months ago.
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Why do people keep thinking its due to the different log in. Most of us don't give two sods about that, it is that Yahoo is an unethical company.
example
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4695718.stm
Posted 65 months ago.
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oh. I thought you were referring to Yahoo's ID system. and if your Yahoo ID vanishes, what happens to your Flickr account? That sort of thing seems pretty sorted. But I hadn't heard anything about a rash of incidents of the merge causing widespread destruction and deletion. That would be bad. Of course, Flickr has responded that any issue with Yahoo will not cause your Flickr page to be instantly deleted, and you can always communicate directly to Flickr via the same email you've always used, to recover and/or fix your login.
The actual merge seems to be the least of folks' troubles. The principal of merging (forced merging) and the what-ifs of yahoo control, those seem to be the wider issues.
Example, Psyks: exactly how long have you been a Flickr member? Your unethical nemesis has been your owner/master/evilgod since Sept. 2005, so why now the indignation?
Posted 65 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 65 months ago.
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@iansand: I did yes, and I realize that they need those rights to display a photo, create a thumbnail etc.
However there have been countless examples of yahoo not honoring the terms and abusing it, yahoo not respecting the privacy of their users the people interacting with their users.
Such as the recent case where they handed over the password of a dead marine to his parents so the parents could gain access to the marines email for their sentimental records. That was wrong, because all the 3rd parties in that case - the people who mailed the marine, perhaps in confidence, was never taken into account and neither were the rights of the marine - dead or not - to privacy. One of countless examples of Yahoo not honoring its TOS and Privacy policy and doing just whatever the f it feels is appropriate.
And thats the crux of the matter, I trust flickr and its staff as they've demonstrated many times they do act in our interest and the interest of the service, yahoo has done the opposite.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Most of us don't give two sods about that, it is that Yahoo is an unethical company.
But Yahoo bought Flickr in 2005. If it's a question of ethics, then why didn't you quit then? You've been dealing with Yahoo since then. So it is about the yahoo login then, isn't it?
Posted 65 months ago.
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People who are objecting because "Yahoo! is an unethical company" should just leave Flickr.
How you log in does not materially affect how your Flickr activity (ads near your pics, pro revenue) benefits Yahoo!
Shit or get off the pot.
Posted 65 months ago.
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I hope this isn't breaching any terms of service :-)
Yahoo will sit up and take notice if this issue starts hitting the press. Contacting your local technology magazines, photography magazines and newspapers may help. Most have a web news presence these days.
As great as the Flickr staff have been regarding peoples fears etc it's Yahoo who have the final say. If they feel that bad press they get may effect their advertising revenue and outways the benefits of converting a bunch of stroppy users.....
My appologies if this has already been bought up previously.
Posted 65 months ago.
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@gstrader: again, you cant read.
The vast majority of us couldn't give a horses back side about the old skool thing, there has been till now no way that a normal flickr person with yahoo acount could be told apart from us, so why would it matter, this is not cosmetic or personal egos these are real issues of not wanting to deal with a company grossly abuse their position at the expense of users.
And yes, we'll have no choice to move, I'll migrate since unfortunately right now flickr is the best service, this will not be the long term situation and once something better comes along my loyalty will have been squandered and I'll move on without regret.
Posted 65 months ago.
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R.I.Pienaar:
No, it's also an issue of trust. After this, I don't know if I can trust Flickr with my photos any more. Even if they reverse this crappy decision, they've proved themselves to be cold hearted to the feelings of the people who provide their content, and pay them to boot..
That's pretty mercenary.
I don't want heather's money, I want Flickr to pay. /sigh/ For a few years the Internet became a little warmer and friendlier. Now it's over.
Way to go "Flickreenos".
Posted 65 months ago.
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shining example says:
nobody could tell whether you were oldskool before... and I doubt it would, erm, benefit the community if some people went around brandishing such obvious badges of patina'd honour. Exactly. One of the things that put me off on deviantART is that everybody is wearing a little badge there. "Senior member", "Official beta tester", "Premium Content Staff", "Creative Staff", "Gallery Director" … yuck.
I don't want a badge. I don't even care whether I sign in with a Yahoo ID or an email address, Yahoo owns flickr anyway. But the least thing I want is a plain and simple flickr login page that lets me save my username and password like it used to, not an icky Yahoo page that is patronizing me.
R.I.Pienaar says:
heck you only ever see the thing once per pc if you use flickr a lot, its a non issue. I will see it at least twice each day: Once when I sign in at work in my lunch break, and once again when I sign in at home in the evening. It does make a difference whether I can simply hit return, or have to retype my username and password over and over again. It will make a difference if I start my daily flickr thinking "Oh, I hate that". (And no, I certainly won't accept a "remember me" cookie on my office PC.)
Posted 65 months ago.
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@mr last minute: no you wont, read what the staff and other people who have migrated said in this thread, you're mistaken about the signout/signin scenario.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Seems to me that now you can sign in, and stay signed in...
I am sorry all this is trivial, and is a non issue for me. I am sorry that I do not see the validity of the arguments. You are paying for a service, you use the service, and if you do not like the service you get, you quit paying for the service, and go elsewhere.
Posted 65 months ago.
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It does make a difference whether I can simply hit return, or have to retype my username and password over and over again. It will make a difference if I start my daily flickr thinking "Oh, I hate that". (And no, I certainly won't accept a "remember me" cookie on my office PC.)
I'm not sure if I'm reading your comment correctly. I merged my account a few days ago. I access my account from a link on a personal homepage I keep on my computer. Clicking the link now to flickr is no different from before I merged - I go to my home page and look for comments, group posts, and the like.
I have retained my habit of never logging out, but I don't use a computer in a public space. Maybe that's the difference?
Posted 65 months ago.
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I don't want heather's money, I want Flickr to pay. /sigh/ For a few years the Internet became a little warmer and friendlier. Now it's over.
Dude... have no fear. It's not my money. I'm sure that it will be expensed. You're not sticking it to me if you ask for the refund -- I'm merely the vehicle.
Posted 65 months ago.
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@R.I.Pienaar
You mentioned trying to get press coverage?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6316761.stm
Posted 65 months ago.
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if your Yahoo ID vanishes, what happens to your Flickr account? That sort of thing seems pretty sorted.
As of last night, the only official statement by Yahoo on that issue was that your Flickr account would be deleted. Spelled out in bold face type no less. That issue was only "sorted" somewhere in the middle of this outraged comment swarm. The issue of how Flickr will deal with deactivated Yahoo logins seems to be getting sorted as we speak. Why was it not figured out anytime over the last year or two? Who knows.
Let me add another issue that should have been clearly spelled out a year ago:
Let's say I use fake personal information for my Yahoo ID (which is exactly what a lot of people seem to be doing) and I need to recover my password. Will Flickr be able to get me back in to my account even if I don't know my bogus birthdate or address?
Too bad that Flickr has to rush around figuring all this out now, but they were the ones who procrastinated....
Posted 65 months ago.
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@niddler: nope, not me.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Dude... have no fear.
Evidently you missed my remarks about trust, back there.
I hope you listen to your users about this issue. You're destroying our creation and ...
I give up. Time for bed. :(
Posted 65 months ago.
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"..but they [flickr] were the ones who procrastinated.... "
PFFSHHHHHOOOO!!!!!!
That's a spit-take, I didn't know the emoticon for it. But that's possibly the most priceless comment I've read during this whole thing.
Posted 65 months ago.
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But Yahoo bought Flickr in 2005. If it's a question of ethics, then why didn't you quit then? You've been dealing with Yahoo since then. So it is about the yahoo login then, isn't it?
Well, it's not entirely ethics, as you may have surmised from other posts. And other threads:
Yahoo 360 has an ongoing problem with this. Flickr staff have notified the Yahoo360 group about it, but not much has been done. It's not really a Flickr issue.
That quote is from a thread started in November and is still ongoing as Yahoo has still not fixed it. Flickr has no control, of course, and is sending people to the 360 support team. Not much has been done, though. Not much has been done.
Posted 65 months ago.
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There are plenty people here who are complaining precisely because it's a new log-in method. There are others complaining because Yahoo is evil and unethical (and yet, even though Yahoo has owned flickr since 2005, it's only now an issue because the log-in has changed). Only a handful are concerned about the differences in the TOS. The egregious examples noted are of Yahoo 'violating' or twisting the TOS.
But if you think Yahoo will disregard the TOS, having a separate log-in will not protect you, will it?
Posted 65 months ago.
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RubyMae edited this topic 65 months ago.
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The Searcher
"exactly how long have you been a Flickr member? Your unethical nemesis has been your owner/master/evilgod since Sept. 2005, so why now the indignation?"
If it wasn't Yahoo it would have been Google or MSN, complaining wouldn't have done anything. Flickrs quality was able to make me look past yahoos involvement as long as I didn't have to deal directly with them. After the buy out Flickr became an awesome company and service owned by Yahoo, now it is becoming just another Yahoo service.
I can understand why Yahoo want to do this, it brings them more revenue, that part is simple. But just admit that, there are several possible sign in systems you COULD use that would not cost you anymore money.
Posted 65 months ago.
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this is not cool, flickreenos, not cool.
i'm so disappointed with flickr.
i made a group to protest against this.
i'm sorry but the whole 95% argument is irrelevant.
and for those of you who are all 'oh i don't get why you're having an issue with this', don't belittle our disappointment. we have every right to be uneasy about yahoo forcibly owning us.
Posted 65 months ago.
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iris. edited this topic 65 months ago.
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Zota: um, you may want to take a gander at the top of this page. Bottom of Heather's extensive QandA post up there? Here I'll quote it in case you have some malady that prevents you from scrolling up:
"Will my Flickr account be deleted if there's a problem with my Y! ID?
[No] ... you might be temporarily prevented from logging in to Flickr, but this is something that we can fixed (and have fixed in the past).
Posted 65 months ago.
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Come on Heather...cough up some Gold Stars, or Red Stars or little red school houses or something, to fix this...
You might not like writing all those refund checks.
:o)
Posted 65 months ago.
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Iris - You may have the right, but it's certainly not rational. Those of us who have Yahoo log-ins haven't experienced any of the nightmarish scenarios the rest of you are imagining.
Posted 65 months ago.
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PFFSHHHHHOOOO!!!!!!
If a spit-take is required to get Flickr to update glaring omissions and inaccuracies in their FAQ, then so be it. Spit away.
(If only they'd spelled out the answers to these questions a year ago, they'd be covered with a lot less spit right now...)
Posted 65 months ago.
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rubymae, then it's not your concern to begin with.
Posted 65 months ago.
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 said: Well, it's not entirely ethics, as you may have surmised from other posts.
You took my reply out of context. I didn't claim it was all about ethics. The person I was replying to claimed that: Most of us don't give two sods about that, it is that Yahoo is an unethical company.
But Yahoo bought Flickr in 2005. If it's a question of ethics, then why didn't you quit then? You've been dealing with Yahoo since then. So it is about the yahoo login then, isn't it?
Posted 65 months ago.
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zota: happy to help. So now that that's all cleared up, you're good to go then?
PS: I took the shot yesterday, relatively painless. no lolypop, which kinda sucked. or didn't.. suck.. um.
Posted 65 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 65 months ago.
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"Flickr has no control, of course, and is sending people to the 360 support team. Not much has been done, though. Not much has been done."
To clarify- the 360 team have to fix these on a case by case basis, and do so when they get tickets for it. :-)
Posted 65 months ago.
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i don't want to belong to yahoo. i don't. the faqs were vague from the get-go.
plus you guys with yahoo ids get preferencial treatment, i.e. easily accessible login page, vip access to flickr gadgets, flickr mobile... while the rest of us are deprived of this.
the manipulation here is obvious.
Posted 65 months ago.
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"Will my Flickr account be deleted if there's a problem with my Y! ID?
That was added after several people, including me, asked specifically about that issue. For the last 18 months, I think Flickr hasn't had much (anything?) to say about this.
The Searcher: some malady that prevents you from scrolling up:
Uh.... yeah. Nice.
Posted 65 months ago.
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zota edited this topic 65 months ago.
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This is not only about "a different login."
This is about being forced to hand personal information to Yahoo.
This is about Yahoo's record of deleting accounts either wrongly or for trivial reasons.
This is about Yahoo!'s track record of security breaches.
This is about Yahoo's even longer record of aggressive, invasive marketing, including providing your personal information to their third-party "partners."
This is about Shi Tao and other Chinese pro-democracy activists who are in prison or dead because Yahoo! ratted them out to the Chinese government.
This is about the small group of us who have a firm sense of ethics and morals and who cannot and will not silently abide this.
When you say "it's no big deal" or "it's just a different login", there are only two possible explanations: Either
(1) you don't object to your personal information being passed around willy-nilly, you don't object to being aggressively targeted for marketing, you don't object to accounts being wrongly and recklessly deleted, you don't object to shoddy security practices, and you don't object to being associated with Yahoo!'s kowtowing to China's violent anti-democracy regime, or else
(2) you haven't bothered to read anything that's been posted here and simply have no idea what the issues here are.
Which is it? No morals, or no clue?
Posted 65 months ago.
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Dave Ward Photography edited this topic 65 months ago.
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"But Yahoo bought Flickr in 2005. If it's a question of ethics, then why didn't you quit then? You've been dealing with Yahoo since then. So it is about the yahoo login then, isn't it"
As I have already said...
I"f it wasn't Yahoo it would have been Google or MSN, complaining wouldn't have done anything. Flickrs quality was able to make me look past yahoos involvement as long as I didn't have to deal directly with them. After the buy out Flickr became an awesome company and service owned by Yahoo, now it is becoming just another Yahoo service"
Posted 65 months ago.
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Stewart (several pages back): Get that? You grant Yahoo! "the license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service," but not in an unqualified way. You do that "solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available."
That sounds great but the problem is that there's a lot of wiggle room for use of images on a site that is ostensibly about "photo sharing." My idea of "sharing" is to allow people who want to appreciate a photo I've taken to view it, comment on it, print it out, use it as a desktop wallpaper, and/or possibly blog or link to it from external sources. Those are all uses where the primary focus is the sharing of the image and the appreciation of someone else's work and I think it's a reasonable and understood expectation that there would be no other uses of the image.
It would seem that Yahoo's ideas of sharing extend into other usage to which many of us object--the unfortunate wii.yahoo.com page being a fine example.
I understand that you're not responsible for that kind of error in judgment nor are you able to give plain worded explanations of Yahoo's TOS, but what would be the possibility of someone higher up from Yahoo posting a message to the Flickr community about what he/she thinks is an appropriate "sharing" of user images--specifically what usage rights they feel the Yahoo TOS gives Yahoo? I would feel a lot less nervous about Yahoo's gradual creep into Flickr-space if I had an answer to that.
Posted 65 months ago.
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inkswamp edited this topic 65 months ago.
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Have you guys seen the photos on the wii page? That's made my day.
Posted 65 months ago.
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dave, dave, dave. calm down. what about what you haven't read? all the bits about the yahoo account being not much more than an appendix; required for living the Flickr life but in all other ways a dead end? They can't contact me with the only email given the yahoo email that I'll never read.
If Yahoo is evil, if they have done so many terrible things globally, then end the hypocricy and leave Flickr. "Joining" them? You've been "joined" with them as long as you use Flickr, login or not.
[holy crap! I get preferencial treatment now? That is so cool. so, none of you old skool people got a yahoo gift basket today? ah. well I can see how the bitter can come then. wow, I haven't had godiva chocolates in forever. evil empires rock!]
Posted 65 months ago.
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The Searcher edited this topic 65 months ago.
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It's not the fact that it's a "different login screen". It will be an entirely whole new account, one that sucks at that. I've had a Yahoo account before. They are horribly disorganized, and do silly things.
Posted 65 months ago.
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noonespillow edited this topic 65 months ago.
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hear, hear, dave ward!!!!!!
you have explained it splendidly.
please join the protest group.
i would love for you to contribute that.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Which is it? No morals, or no clue?
So, Dave, you are suggesting then, that the 6 million people who use Flickr with a Yahoo ID are somehow either clueless or immoral? Fine, then quit and you won't have to ever deal with us again.
Posted 65 months ago.
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the searcher, curb your venom and be a gentleman. we're not shooting each other down here. why are you so ruffled up by us?
if you've got a yahoo id then this is not your discussion to mess about in.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Heather:
If/when I decide to move, I would like a prorated refund, but I would never accept it from you personally, even if it was being exspensed... Yahoo is a big enough company, with enough lawyers, to be able to quickly figure out that they are accountable for their actions and figure out how to set up the refunds... It has been said over and over again that we had 18 months notice, but really, unless you lurked around the forums or FAQs there would have been no way for us to know before renewing... I wish that would be acknowleged rather than the constant 'we told you a long time ago'...
As far as the 'it's just a login' or 'nothing bad happened to me' posts, you guys are totally missing the point... There are way too many people in this thread, that HAVE HAD issues with Yahoo in the past... We are completely justified to not want to deal with them again, and just because you have had no issues with them, doesn't make us wrong or crazy...
We were invited to this thread to express our concerns and we are... I think the staff needs to address the issue of the people attacking our valid concerns, rather than allow them to add to the already emotional topic...
Posted 65 months ago.
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I want Heather to give out some badges, and end all this***
Posted 65 months ago.
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@gstrader - A badge wouldn't keep Yahoo from loosing or "temporarily" locking up your account.
Posted 65 months ago.
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dave ward already created a protest group back when he was Smaragd, and back when the Yahoo purchase of Flickr was announced. And he was as passionate about it then as he is now.
What kind of entropy stopped that revolution? I got the impression it was even more of a hideous violation back then, being as it was the first time and all.
Posted 65 months ago.
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iris: so wrong. first, no venom, in fact I'm anti-venom. chortling goes along with the typing. second, saying that just because I've successfully done what so few left are still angry/fearful/spiteful/regretful/sad for having to do means I can't contribute, is a bit like saying only our side gets to argue our point. What do either of us get to learn with that?
Just seems to be, at this tail end of the thread, a lot of anger towards Yahoo, but by people who have been using a Yahoo product for some time. Don't quite get that. Is it symbolic? I mean, as I said, I just did the switch, and I'm never going to see my yahoo account ever again. So whatever I have against Yahoo, isn't changed by the way I have to login. They're going to do every single thing that they can wrong, and I'll be ready to call them on it, but they'll do it regardless of how you or I log in.
So what's the what here? Is it the lack of control? There was a psychologist, I think it was in the article with the Stewart quotes, explained the phenomenon of communities like this. We feel like we're in control, then something comes along like this to remind us it isn't really ours, and it kicks us hard, to be reminded of that.
I dunno. Just wonder what the what is. The actual real harm all seems to be presupposed, or bound to happen. Not actually happening tho. What's the actual harm befalling you?
And it's totally ok if it's spiritual, or philisophical or principle. I'd believe that way sooner than all the crap about missing faqs and random deletions and global terror.
Posted 65 months ago.
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NO, and no not on any other Internet web site as well...I invite you to show me any website where you can log on and be safe from purge?
Posted 65 months ago.
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So, Searcher, I guess we know it's not "no clue" in your case. So it's clearly "no morals."
Searcher, why are you participating in this thread? Are you a Flickr staff member? No. Are you helping with technical problems? No. Are you explaining why merging with Yahoo! is a good thing? No. Is your participation helping to make things better? No.
Are you merely, in effect, trying to silence the anti-Yahoo! protesters? Yes.
I guess we know you're philosophically in line with the Chinese government, ready to arrest -- or drive a tank over -- anybody who starts expressing any dissent.
Do you feel good about yourself for what you stand for?
Posted 65 months ago.
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txkimmers wrote: What kind of entropy stopped that revolution? I got the impression it was even more of a hideous violation back then, being as it was the first time and all.
The fact that you were never a part of that group, coupled with the fact that you don't remember what happened or why, makes it clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Well, Flickr used to feel very safe -- I've been logged in for months now, and the only reason they would cut my account is if I did something naughty. (Which I would never do!)
But Yahoo is just..perhaps, too big for it's britches? Too big and still underdeveloped.
Posted 65 months ago.
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the searcher, did you know that if you don't use your yahoo account regularly, it'll be blocked?
yep.
Posted 65 months ago.
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the searcher, did you know that if you don't use your yahoo account regularly, it'll be blocked?
If your Yahoo! account is tied to a Flickr account, it will not be deactivated due to inactivity.
Posted 65 months ago.
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dave, do you usually just argue with yourself in a mirror? I know it isn't so easy when you have to swim with others, instead of making your own groups full of people who feel the exact same way to non-argue with.
Why would I want to shut you down? Why would I want to stop you? First off, entertaining, totally. Second, maybe you're right. So far I wouldn't know because you're too used to making self-serving statements rather than true arguments, but maybe you'll get there.
But that's what this is, a FORUM. and so far I disagree with a lot of what you are saying. but telling me to leave, sounds more like you want to silence dissenters, rather than engage in debate to further your ideas.
Usually means I'm winning, too. I'll take that as a win.
I feel very good about myself and what I stand for, thanks for asking.
Posted 65 months ago.
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If your Yahoo! account is tied to a Flickr account, it will not be deactivated due to inactivity.
Is this a new thing? Can we see this anywhere in official writing? (Not to put down your opinion, I'd just like to know if it's actually down in writing somewhere.)
Posted 65 months ago.
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I would remind you that Searcher is not the bad guy, he makes a valid point. As for the Chinese Government, they are becoming more responsible for everything that you have.
You think I am kidding, go look at the made in tags of your underwear, your t shirts, how about the gifts you gave at Christmas?
Big business, bought the USA , and they gave athe assets of which to China, and the profits of the sale enrich their coffers... Yahoo may be a part of that web, but that does not mean that you can not still use it as a tool for your own purposes. Yahoo will no doubt let you as long as you pay them your dues.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Iris: I did not know that. possibly because it is untrue.
Posted 65 months ago.
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iris I have had a Yahoo ID since I joined flickr in October 2005. No spam. No dramas. No nothing.
Posted 65 months ago.
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the searcher, lay off. this is not about one-upping each other.
you can express whatever opinion you want but not at the expense of belittling others.
Posted 65 months ago.
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Every company rats out Chinese dissents to the government, or cut off the service. Said companies don't want to lose business.
You're forced to hand over information when a small company is purchased by a large one. Like myspace and News Corp.(owners of FOX) or anything that involves users info with Microsoft
I signed up for flickr in June/July of 2005, after attack of the show showed some images and talked about it.. I was old skool. I merged it after a little awhile.
Also, your information gets passed around no matter where you go online. My cell phone number got passed around and it wasn'tyahoo's fault.
This reminds me of the constant Sony bashing in the game world. Yes both deserved the backlash for what they did, (rootkit and anything chinese related). Now its about associating them with the devil, saying they're gonna go bankrupt, or they are a piece of shit.
Also, having special badges is a horrid idea shining example. Forums use them and its mostly about who's cooler.
[edit]
Also, if you're a US flickr user that hate Yahoo that much, go protest outside their offices instead of protesting them on the Internet. Its like petitions and the Internet. Petitions only work in real life and worked once on the Internet. Protesting in real life works and once on the Internet. Online petitions and protest are jokes. I know most of you hate yahoo and if you hate them so much you would actualy protest them not online protest. Although an online protest cound work somehow
Actions speak louder than words
Yes I have morals
Posted 65 months ago.
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snake8382002 edited this topic 65 months ago.
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