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Q. WomanUAE wrote: Covering the body except the face and hands is what the Quran said nothing more nothing less.
I haven't been able to find a reference this specific in the Quran (I have a dual Arabic/English text translated by A Yusuf Ali), and thought that the instruction was more general, i.e. that women should 'dress modestly'.
If it's written in the Quran, could you help me find where?
And if it isn't (recognising that the Quran is not the only source of Islamic law), what is it that makes wearing a hijab, burqa etc a religious requirement?
Posted 84 months ago.
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my islamic teacher told me that: prophit mohammed said a woman should cover evrything except and then he pointed to his face and hands.
Posted 84 months ago.
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Teo, the specific of hands and face is from hadith not the Quran. I have certain issues with hadith so I'll keep my mouth shut and let someone more knowledgeable elaborate on this one.
Posted 84 months ago.
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MD..>> [deleted] says:
Teo, here I got these:
"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women
to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are
among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be
Muslims) and not annoyed..."(Quran 33:59)
"Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments
Posted 84 months ago.
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Thanks! Glad to have learned something new.
Miss60 can ask the next question if she wants (doesn't have to be straight away) - can be on anything that you'd like to know about another culture.
Posted 84 months ago.
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Good thread teotwawki!
Posted 84 months ago.
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Is it too late to continuing answering the first question?
there is actually a pretty wide ranging debate, within the Muslim women's community worldwide, about the meaning of the two verses MD quoted above. as you can see, both references are pretty ambiguous. based on the standards of dress in the fifth or sixth century, you can make a case for them meaning simply 'don't expose your breasts in public and don't wear flashy jewelry'. however time and culture have pretty well standardized on something that is closer to a Victorian era sense of modesty than to sixth century standards, or modern western standards. some women use these same versus to 'prove' that modest western attire is perfectly islamic, while others will argue for full veiling based on the same verses.
Posted 84 months ago.
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ummm.... well this thing q is about things that happened 2 me lst yr...
Y do some non-arabs hate us...?
ummm lst yr in the summer holidays i went to london and germany.. i dont wear shaylah when i travel.. i wear cap but my mother and my sister do.. so aniway in germany we were using the underground and when we were on the moving stairs this german guy SPIT on my sister ON PERPOSE and then he lafed and left and some people there ignored us when we ask them for direction.. and in london we lost our luguge and we were askin a guy for help but he pretended he didnt even hear us... even a shopkeeper refused to sell something to my mother..
i know that not all of the non-arabs are like this ...umm but y?
Posted 84 months ago.
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OoPs... Sorry...
Posted 84 months ago.
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MD..>> [deleted] says:
FYI:
shaylah = sheila = head covering :)
abaya = burqa = body covering
Posted 84 months ago.
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Thanks DWinton, you're right, there is a growing movement among Muslims women to re-examine interpretations of Islam texts altogether. Hijab is just one subject out of thousands including marital rights, human rights, and so forth.
@Miss60
You know I live in a very small American town. And they are always very nice to me, but when I went back home to Texas, people harassed me. There are good and bad people everywhere. Don't let the bad people speak for the good people, too. :)
Posted 84 months ago.
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it happened because there are stupid ignorant people everywhere, unfortunately. and stupid ignorant people like to pick on anyone who is different from them. I'm sorry this happened to you and your mother and your sister, and I hope you had other, good experiences with people in london and germany, because I think most people are basically good hearted and tolerant in those countries.
Posted 84 months ago.
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Hate is everywhere. In Africa some white people used to spit on blacks and vice versa. But not all Westerners hate Arabs, not all whites hate blacks, not all Chinese hate the Japanese, and not all Jews hate the Palestinians. I think it has something to do with fearing stuff that is too different from what we are used to.
It is just a sad reflection of a part of the human race we all have to deal with. But I think there is hope for the future.
@DWinton - I am glad you brought that point up about the first question.
Posted 84 months ago.
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in london we lost our luguge and we were askin a guy for help but he pretended he didnt even hear us
This might not have had anything to do with your background, Miss60 - many people in London are just rude. I once needed to ask the time near Euston and asked three people before anyone paid any attention to me.
I agree with the other answers, and it's true that in every country there are racist and intolerant people.
There are certainly some people in the UK who feel threatened by the increasing diversity of the country and the prominence of Muslims in society. Change and the unknown are often threatening, but in time things will improve - because there are many good people working to ensure that differences are bridged.
Posted 84 months ago.
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I wonder if there's fear in that hatred? Can you imagine if people thought that muslems were coming to Germany with the intent to expand the number of arabic countries, countries where the laws are heavily influenced by muslim law? This would be very frightning to most westerners. There's certainly hatred in misunderstanding.
Perhaps I'm projecting, of course. The question about who has the right to decide right and wrong is a huge issue in the United states. There is grave disaggreement over whether religious belief should be even allowed to sway lawmakers making laws. There's even disagreement over what principles were used to create the current the laws and constitution were set in the first place.
It's also probable that Osama Bin laden's anger at the western culture spawns undeserved anger towards Arab/Muslim culture. I have the perfect follow on to this question, along this vein, but I can wait until my turn.
Posted 84 months ago.
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miss sixty, you said:
in germany we were using the underground and when we were on the moving stairs this german guy SPIT on my sister ON PERPOSE and then he lafed and left and some people there ignored us when we ask them for direction.
A lot of turkish people live in germany. There are schools in Berlin where 90 % of the pupils are raised muslim. Their parents by now make the curriculum, as their children are not allowed to do this or that. So, some germans feel like another culture takes over. I think out of this a certain fear appears which make people react in all sorts of ways. Also some people are quickly and strongly influenced by media.
Posted 84 months ago.
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discover.islamway.com/
A handy website for those who are interested :)
Sorry teotwawki i wasnt here to answer the question fast but i guess some of my friends helped to clear out things :)
Thanx for Asking :)
Posted 84 months ago.
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I also wanted to add as a human nature we all full of hearts inside from the day we are born but then it depends on how we are raised and whom to love and whom to hate i was raised to love everyone what so ever county he came from or religion he belong to as i mentioned before Islam says we are all sisters and brothers on this universe :) But has a grew up i discovred their are some other people who have different opinion on us i though they are bad people which we are suppose to hate back .but then it all became clear that those people have their reasons to unlike us and i totally understand that thats why im here to make things clear. :) when i travel i meet rude people on the way and the only reason is the Hijab im wearing but my only responce is to smile and go along. These people are very kind from the inside but what they have known all these years and heard about islam had effected them,we have just to ignore the outer layer and go much more deeper and at that point they will realise that they had not known the truth about us. :)
I have seen many muslims insulting the ones who have been rude to them. Its just not the right thing to do and sometimes i feel ashamed of the behaivour they behave in western countries. Dont blame them they are not going deeper :)
Posted 84 months ago.
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urbandiscount [deleted] says:
I think lots of people have a real distaste for religion, not necessarily islam only.
Posted 84 months ago.
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Sure, But we do not represent those people :) we believe in Islam and all other religions that are from heaven :) Like Jews and christans we all believe in them and there and no distaste in non of them :)
Posted 84 months ago.
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Just remember WomenUAE that we have quite a few people here who love other cultures but do not believe in God at all. We have to be respectful of their position as well.
@urbandiscount, I agree. There are many good people who for various reasons do not like religion. They have a point – look at all the wars and hardship caused by religious folk. After all, Osama is religious as well, and so was the Reverend Jones.
Posted 84 months ago.
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...not being religious myself, I have to confront my own bias against *all* religions daily. As BenODen says, this mistrust/immediate pulling back on my part is also based on fear...the fear of being persecuted for *not* having religious beliefs or the fear of not being able to live one's life the way one feels is right because of possible limitations placed on individuals in the name of religion.
As a female, having one's ability to self-define and to enjoy freedom in society certainly feels threatened when laws are based on an interpretation of *any* sort of religious scriptures.
Posted 84 months ago.
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I think it is a misperception that people without religious beliefs have no "standard moral code". In my dealings with people, I have found that not to be the case. I think though that plays into a "fear" of people who don't subscribe to a religion, plus sometimes it's almost like a "you're out of the club" kind of thing.
As Jan said before, fear is ingrained in a part of our wiring as well as the need to classify things hence the common problem of stereotypes. It's a survival tool that can sometimes go overboard so fear definitely plays a part in the hate.
On religions, I still feel that if it weren't religions people were using to control or justify their actions, it would be something else. That doesn't necessarily make the nature of religion or the religion itself bad. Idea's can be used, social causes, nationalism or cultural beliefs. When anything is followed blindly without a critical eye, things get dangerous.
Posted 84 months ago.
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I'm really likeing the extended look at this topic. Perhaps we should have this be the 'Question of the Day' thread? Aaaaah, sorry! My structured side is leaking out! I already have Culture topic of the week (Or did I not say how often my other thing was going to happen..)
So, anyways, I'd vote to allow more than one answer to these questions, since some of them don't have cut and dry answers. Maybe let the person asking question says how long they want to field answers, but it probably shouldn't be more than a day? Anyway, enjoying things, trying to set expectations so we don't try to rush along too fast... And maybe at some point we spin off new threads to continue discussion while this one goes on to the next question? Thoughts? I'm sorely tempted to explore the 'systems of morals' question, but uh, that is a seporate question, as is my other question... I guess I'll just start a list! *laugh*
Posted 84 months ago.
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WomenUAE, there are lots of good people around the whole world. They also have good hearts. Some are religious, some are not religious. And there are bad people, and some of these bad people are islamic fundamentalists or neo-nazis, people who admire Hitler...etc.
The problem is that at the moment the world politics are so, that the islamic fundamentalists make it into the news. That doesn't mean that 'we westerners' think that muslims are bad!
Posted 84 months ago.
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Hmm, we seem to have hit a quiet spot... Maybe now's a good time to encourage Miss 60 to choose the next person to ask a question, assuming she's satisfied with the answers she's gotten.
Posted 84 months ago.
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womenuae I just want to say that your comment about human nature above is such a mature and respectful one, and if everyone could learn to 'go deeper' I think we would have world peace for sure. : )
Posted 84 months ago.
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*Bump
Posted 84 months ago.
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Could the admins nominate a new questioner if Miss60 would rather not? Good bumping BTW ;)
Posted 84 months ago.
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Ben said he had a follow-up question. If no one has any objections, I'm fine with him going next.
Posted 84 months ago.
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*scratches his head* Now what was that... I'll get back with you, unless there are objections raised, like nepotism or something. *grin* (After all, this isn't the "Administrator show" or something like that.)
Posted 84 months ago.
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lol I have no objections to anyone asking just firing off a question. I just remember you said you had a follow up. I wasn't even thinking of monitoring this thread. I thought it was an open thread for discussion. :P
If we want to go with teo's idea, then Miss 60 should choose the next person.
*edit
Ahh here is the Ben quote I was referring to:
"It's also probable that Osama Bin laden's anger at the western culture spawns undeserved anger towards Arab/Muslim culture. I have the perfect follow on to this question, along this vein, but I can wait until my turn."
Posted 84 months ago.
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Hehe, yah, Ok, I got it. I wasn't thinking we'd need to step in unless things got out of hand, either, but it does seem to be stalled, so I'll just jump in then. I can retract the question for later if there are objections, but I'n very curious about the answers to this hot question, and I hope I don't touch off a fire storm. Just so I'm clear, I'm looking for perspectives, not arguments. Maybe we can debate over it all later, but this could be tough to keep civil...
My question is a follow up in the following way: Much of the cultural hatred going around is due to injustices, injuries and offenses (perceived and actual) coming from 'the other side.' Hatred certainly can come from overgeneralizations of specific situations. But, that said, there would be far fewer reasons to jump to a conclusion if the world could come together and solve the real thorny problems involving the Arab world.
So, My question is this: What other mainstream suggestions are there out there to solve the current situation in Iraq, the ongoing strugle against islamists (The groups who see the world as a war of Islam against the western world, in case the term isn't as common as I thought), and the Israel/Palestine situation. These are the three situations that are the most tightly tied together I think. The USA has its own ideas on how to actually get these things solved, and I know there are lots of disagreements over how the US is doing it. I also know the way we got here is full of misteps and injustices too, but simply voicing all these disagreements without solutions isn't all that interesting. I take it as a given that there will be disagreement, that there are lots of messes the western world has created, perhaps through misunderstandings of many sorts, perhaps because of unconscious bias against one side or another or even sometimes downright pure hostility. What I'm looking for is suggestions/solutions that are going around in other countries, conventional wisdom that the US media is simply ignoring. There are some solutions like "Just pull all troops out of Iraq" that I disagree with for concrete reasons, but I'll hold my tongue for the time being. *grin*
Posted 84 months ago.
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Wow, that's a really complex question; my view is that solving injustices and reducing poverty won't result in a reduction in terrorism.
The majority of those who organise suicide bombings, for example, are not desperate or poor - they're wealthy, educated professionals (e.g. the late Abd al-Aziz Rantissi, the 'paediatrician of death' - by day he healed Arab children, by night he murdered Jewish children).
Neither is the issue injustice. All injustices are 'perceived' injustices, although as you rightly observed, some are more understandable than others. But if I decide that, for example, that Luton in the UK (which has a very large population of Muslim immigrants, many of whom are resistant to integration) is occupied territory and begin blowing up buses and bombing mosques, I wouldn't be fighting an injustice. I'd just be a racist, crackpot, neo-nazi thug. But I could claim that I was fighting an injustice - it's often simply a way of justifying fanatical demands.
The invasion of Iraq was, for the people repressed by Saddam, justice; for others, injustice - there wasn't a 'justice for all' option. Those who say 'solve injustices and the causes of terrorism will vanish' are essentially arguing for surrender - they threaten us, so we should give them everything they demand.
I think there are several ways forward. Education and co-operation, in our countries and theirs; a consistent and determined refusal to acquiesce to threats; enabling of governments, e.g. in Iraq, to deal with terrorists themselves. In terms of military action, selected targetting (assassination) of the bosses by those governments will always be preferable to mass bombings or other less discriminate means, but still not ideal. More brains and less arms is the way forward, I think.
Anyone want to shoot me down (figuratively)?
Posted 84 months ago.
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Thanks for the answer teotwawki. I'd tend to aggree, but that's unfortunately not the way the way we're resolving the conflicts now. The question at its core is simple. What do you hear about what we should do to resolve the conflicts between Muslim countries/groups and the non-Muslim countries/groups?
The problem is that the answer is not concrete and there are probably as many answers as people here, and there's no way to figure out what's a good answer either. SO, I appologize, probably the question is wrong for the thread, and maybe impossible to answer without talking about what's gone wrong before, and what's going wrong now. So, OK, I'll save the question for another time, maybe another place.
I yeild the question floor. Teotwawki, if you have a question to ask, go for it, if not, declare the floor open to other questions.
Posted 84 months ago.
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Nothing to apologize for, Ben. I don't think the question is wrong for the thread, but probably no one has the answers. I don't know about anyone else, but I feel somewhat hopeless as to a solution as the situation is now. Every country wants what's best for themselves. It seems that a solution has to be developed where everyone wins.
I've also become horribly cynical when it comes to governments and their policies, so my opinion is skewed way off course. The world needs a decent mediator and right now, I just don't see any.
Posted 84 months ago.
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902 members and so few posts! Especially here, but in other threads too :(
[edited to make new thread as MD suggested]
Posted 84 months ago.
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MD..>> [deleted] says:
i think it's probably because people have taken off for the summer.
teo, this is a great idea (sharing pics) - i think it should be a new thread though!
Posted 84 months ago.
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OK, will edit and post in a new thread (and try to think up another question!)
On second thoughts... it would be better if someone else asked - a non-political question maybe, something a bit lighter.
Posted 84 months ago.
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