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Which way is the positive?
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I'm curious. I was about to add my photos of this ancient sun sign to this pool when I noticed one of the rules saying...
Swastikas must rotate anti-clockwise (see the group icon). In the yogic tradition where the swastika originated, this direction symbolises 'permanent spiritual victory'.
I did a little googling on Swastika and I guess theres no end to which direction this symbol can rotate. One thing I did notice is that all nazi swastikas look like the group icon.
So what's the deal? Is there one right or 'negative' way to display the swastika?
Posted at 4:06PM, 11 October 2005 PDT
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Good question!
The science of Yantra ('junt-ruh') is the ancient yogic study of symbols and forms and how they affect the mind and the wider environment. That branch of knowledge asserts that the counter-clockwise swastika will lead to permanent victory, while the clockwise-rotating symbol will lead to annihilation.
Furthermore, in Yoga, the counter-clockwise swastika is said to 'unwind' the kundalinii - the latent spiritual potentiality. The opposite direction is said to bind it more tightly.
I have read that in Hinduism, the counter-clockwise symbol represents 'evolution' of the universe and of mind, and the clockwise symbol represents 'involution', or collapse.
The flag for the Third Reich was indeed a counter-clockwise swastika. In his deranged philosophy, Hitler assumed that 'victory of the Aryan man' was the same as the permanent victory that the swastika represents. But the swastika stands for something universal and eternal.
Some cultures use or have used the symbol in the clockwise direction. I do not know why that is the case. However, I understand that since the 1940's, the clockwise direction has often been used instead of the counter-clockwise direction to distance it from the Nazi usage.
It is my hope that we can begin to display the positive swastika again, in the context of its original intention, and without fear of being misunderstood.
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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premasagar (a group admin) edited this topic 81 months ago.
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transairn [deleted] says:
i've seen and heard of different meanings regarding the direction of the swastika. personally i don't have one set rule for which direction it goes...it's beautiful either way.
Posted 81 months ago.
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Because the Nazi swastika was counter clockwise and we want to reclaim it, isn't it a bit reactionary to require all posts to have counter clockwise swastikas.
Additionally, excluding clockwise swastikas is implying that they are not positive; and that is rather judgmental isn't it?
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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Toby Ciranjiiva Tatsuyama-Kurk edited this topic 81 months ago.
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Thank you for your comments.
Toby, I do not feel it is at all reactionary to make requirements for the photos in the group pool. That is the very nature of photo groups on Flickr, e.g. photos containing orange and blue, photos of buildings with the sky behind, etc.
The particular angle of this group is for the exploration and display of counterclockwise swastikas - for the very reasons that I have explained above. I feel it is an entirely appropriate line of exploration for a group to take.
I have just discovered that Poeloops (from the previous comment) also recently created a swastika group. We both seem to have made the groups independently. That group is for swastikas in general, so any swastika photos can go there. Photos of counterclockwise swastikas can also go into this group.
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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premasagar (a group admin) edited this topic 81 months ago.
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Each group must have its criteria of course. Nonetheless a group called “Positive Swastikas” with the requirement that all the swastikas be counter-clockwise is implicitly asserting that clockwise swastikas are not positive.
Those who consider clockwise swastikas to be positive may feel slighted by the exclusion.
Perhaps it would be more clear to call such a group “positive counter-clockwise swastikas”, or if the group adheres to a particular yogic doctrine then “positive yogic swastikas” or something similar - such that no one has any reason to feel disparaged.
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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Toby Ciranjiiva Tatsuyama-Kurk edited this topic 81 months ago.
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Prem, the group creator has asserted that according to yogic philosphy, the direction of the symbol should be in co-ordination with the movement of the kundalinii from crudity to subtlety. This seems rational, but of course this is extremely difficult to find scientific evidence for, but unless we can find specific scientific evidence or at least a rational counter-argument against this assertion, then I think we should continue with this line.
Also, according to the meaning that has been given, it represents movement towards the macrocosmic nucleus or movement towards a state of unassailable victory. It would therefore be correct to infer that movement away from this centre would be movement towards annihilism, expressed by an inverse symbol. Therefore one symbol (counter or clockwise) is positive and the other is negative.
I say that since both the yogic tradition and hinduism are saying counterclockwise is positive that we stick with that (unless and until we can find evidence to the contrary)
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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Jyotirmaya edited this topic 81 months ago.
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I have been doing a little research on this and i would thoroughly recommend reading the following article:-
www.crystalinks.com/swastika.html
The buddhist approach is interesting. Befor the the 20th century, they used the symbol in both directions. After WWII, they used it in an exclusively left facing direction to distance themselves from the right facing (as in this group) symbol.
Please see the pics I just posted to this group here: www.flickr.com/photos/66875628@N00/52404633/in/pool-swast...
If we exclude the coil direction of the kundalinii then, a left facing swastika may also be a positive symbol if it is associated with a clockwise movement (ie clockwise movement around a left facing swatika also draws you to the centre of the figure) Hence a left facing figure may be a symbol of movement towards permamnet victory....
We now need to look more at the direction of the kundalinii.
Anyone have any info/experience on this??
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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Jyotirmaya edited this topic 81 months ago.
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Interesting...
Toby, thank you for making the point about the group name. To be honest, it had not occurred to me as being a problem - and certainly no offence is intended to those who hold the clockwise swastika dear to them.
The cultural history of a symbol's usage is certainly important to the effect of that symbol on the mind. That is, a symbol may be used in an intentionally positive, negative or neutral way. However, I do accept that shapes and forms have an impact on the mind in and of themselves. So, it does make sense to me that one form will have a different effect to another.
I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge that asserts that the counter-clockwise swastika has a positive effect... And so I called this group 'Positive Swastikas'. However, I appreciate that others may find this unexpected and disagreeable.
What do other people think? Would you prefer a different name?
--
Jyotirmaya, thank you for the link and information.
The swastika's tails radiate out in a clockwise direction. When the swastika is considered as 'spinning', then the 'tails' trail behind it - like a flag in the wind. Hence the overall movement of the swastika is in a counter-clockwise motion.
Originally posted 81 months ago.
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premasagar (a group admin) edited this topic 74 months ago.
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If the purpose of this group is to educate people on the yogic tradition of the symbol only, then you should probably rename the group.
If you want to include all positive traditions, I would suggest keeping the name of the group, but removing the requirement that all images of the symbol be counter-clockwise. Given that there are positive cultural traditions that use the symbol both ways, it seems to me to be an unimportant detail, except to differentiate it from the Nazi usage.
For this purpose, however, the direction of the swastika on say, a t-shirt, would not matter to those in the general public who see it. You would get stopped on the street and asked to explain yourself, whichever way it rotates. If what we want to do is rehabilitate the symbol so we can use it and celebrate its positive meaning publicly, then I would suggest a few things for this group, or any public use.
First, never place a black swastika, rotated 45 degrees against a red background, the typical Nazi usage.
Next, always provide some context for the symbol, as we do with this group, and be prepared to answer questions. If the goal of this group and your wider goal is to re-educate people on the positive meaning of the swastika, then it could properly be viewed as a public relations exercise.
As a marketing professional, and someone who lived in a town called Swastika for 20 years, I guess I might take an overly practical approach to words, symbols, and other signifiers. A symbol signifies whatever most people agree it signifies, and the meanings always vary. When buying some items from a shop, my mother got a gasp from the Jewish shopkeeper when she gave her shipping address. But to people living in and around Swastika, Ontario, it's mostly just a nice little town with a train station, and a duck pond in the middle. I guess my point is that the biggest obstacle right now in re-educating people is convincing them that the swastika has been a positive symbol for much longer, and for many more people, than it has been a symbol of hate.
And to go all mushy for a moment, it's not the word or design of the symbol that matters, it's what's in your heart when you communicate it.
Posted 81 months ago.
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I have renamed the group "Positive Swastikas (counter-clockwise)", to emphasise the specific category of images relevant to the photo pool. It's a bit of a long name, but hopefully it will clarify things...
Posted 81 months ago.
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Correct information is, or can be like the layers of an onion. For example, I may pour water on myself at times other than bathing for similar reasons, to cleanse. I may also pour water on myself to cool some part of me, such as after mowing the lawn during hot weather, pouring it on my head, torso, arms or elsewhere to cool down. I may pour water also on the lower part of the spine and body both to cleans, to cool down and to quiet the sentiments emanating from chakras in the area. These are all layered reasons, from shallow to deeper, and there are a few deeper reasons yet unmentioned.
Similary, the utility of the cultural use of a symbol may have different meanings in different parts of the world, and at different times in history, and for different cultures, both concurrently and over time. Among the Hindus, in contemporary life, it is the clockwise, not the counter-clockwise spinning swastika that is considered fortuitous, whereas the counter-clockwise swastika is considered calamitous.
Barring any 'changes' since the advent of Nazism to distance themselves from that movement -- I don't know that that is so -- I can only speculate that with the release of unknown sam'skaras upon the life of one who puts the counter-clockwise swastika to use in accellerating their spiritual progress, that calamities may befall them, their family and perhaps the community as part of that sam'skaric relinquishment, thus it may seem less pain and suffering are inflicted upon all concerned to utilize, if deemed necessary to use at all, the clockwise swastika, as they may perceive such a use. Thus, to many Hindus, the clockwise turning swastika "IS" the positive swastika.
Buddhist may or may not have used the swastika in either direction before the advent of Nazism and World War II, though even in its use in Sino-originating Buddhist art, especially upon the body of an image of Buddah, Sino-centered art is made to be perceived from 'inside' the art object, not from the outside. Thus, the clockwise swastika seen upon the torso, heart, head of a Buddah image is supposed to be witnessed from 'inside' the statue, as if the perceiver 'is' the Buddah, thus the outwardly appearing clockwise swastika would be perceived from within as counter-clockwise in motion.
More than a symbol, yantras, of which the swastika is one, are "virtual reality" portals a yoga steps inside of. The mechinations of stepping into a swastika, preferably seeming to be spinning counter-clockwise is to let the mechanics of the spin unwind the kundalini. There is an applied science of breath-to-spin practiced among yogis, which in contemporary life is proferred by prescription only so will not be covered in this article.
The clockwise rotating swastika was also, usually, the positive swastika in Hopi spiritual practices as well, the spin in either direction an indicator in prophecies as to the fortunes of such a prediction, including the coming of Cortez to Mexico, fortuitous if the swastika/sun was spinning clockwise, disasterous if it was spinning counter-clockwise.
The meaning of a symbol can, through any one of many layers, be fortuitous or not based solely upon beliefs and/or intent. Over the years you may have been priveledged to receive a massage from someone who loves you, someone whose technique, when witnessed objectively, is quite eroneous, whereas more than the mechanics of the massage was experienced, the exchange of sincerity and implicit faith, more fortuitous than the technique's incorrectness.
Another layer of the relevance of a symbol is deeper than it being a shared belief, comes from somewhere deeper than a collective subconscious of mutual agreement, rather it comes from the collective subconscious or collective unconsciousness of the patterns of the manifest universe, as it seems the counter-clockwise spinning swastika may be most relevant to. At the base of the spine is a coiled serpentine energy which, when awakened journey's upward within the spine on a trek that can reach, with imperative intent, to the top of the head, and perhaps above that as well. It is a common belief among yogis that this serpent is coiled clockwise, thus an effort to unwind it and perhaps entice it to rise upwards would include watching it unwind, or imagining it with intent to unwind from its clockwise clutch by imagining it unwinding counter-clockwise and stretching up towards its ultimate destionation atop the head. For this, seemingly the most subtle reason for using the swastika, would necessitate a counter-clockwise spin, thus a 'bias' towards the leftward-spinning swastika as the most positive spin on the swastika is in order.
Span the globe in contemporary life, witness all of the circuitious sporting events around the world. In my searches, all but a few horse races are counter-clockwise. To a yogi, this leftward or counter-clockwise spin is conducive to what a yogi would consider expansive, enlightenment-bound, or toward vistara -- perceiving in all directions without limit.
Originally posted 76 months ago.
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bravenewdawn edited this topic 76 months ago.
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A question to permasagar...
If, as you state, in the Yogic traditions the postive version of the swastika is the left-facing/counter-clockwise version, and that using the symbol is this fashion is conducive to a postive "unwinding" of the kundalnii energy and "permanent victory", and I have no reason to doubt that it is, then why oh why did Hitler and the Nazis suffer such a negative and annihilative fate? For they were using the symbol in it's supposed postive left-face/counter-clockwise position.
Is that question clear? Let's simplify in case not- If the good way is the way the nazi's used it then why did stuff go so bad for the nazi's, hmm?
Perhaps all this hub-bub about which direction it faces is pure nonsense?
This from wikipedia:
The name sauwastika is sometimes given for the supposedly "evil", left-facing, form of the swastika. A common myth is that the left-facing swastika is generally regarded as evil in Hindu tradition. This is because the much more common form in India is the right-facing swastika. Indians of all faiths sometimes use the symbol in both orientations - mostly for symmetry. Buddhists (outside India) generally use the left-facing swastika over the right-facing swastika although, again, both can be used. Despite this, the misconception that the left-facing swastika is evil is widespread, even among some contemporary Indian communities.
Some contemporary writers — Servando González, for example — confuse matters even further by asserting that the right-facing swastika, used by the Nazis is in fact the "evil" sauwastika.[9] (González "proves" that the left-facing swastika is the sunwise one with reference to a 1930's box of Standard fireworks from Sivakasi, India.) This inversion – whether intentional or not – might derive from a desire to prove that the Nazi's use of the right-handed swastika was expressive of their "evil" intent. (See also Taboo in Western countries.) But the notion that Adolf Hitler deliberately inverted the "good left-facing" swastika is wholly unsupported by any historical evidence
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So who knows, really?
I would like to however have some sort of confidence that at the very least displaying it the oppsoite way of the nazis (according to you this would then be right-facing/clockwise) is not "bad luck" as I would like to distinguish it in the minds of the uninformed who may see my display from the evil nazis, eh. So... I'm fairly satisfied that there is no "postive" or "negative" direction, but then again.
fortyone
Posted 75 months ago.
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Fortyone, good questioning. This is how I see it...
The positive swastika (that is, the one considered positive in yoga, which is the one exhibited here and also the one used by the Nazis) stands for permanent spiritual victory. But what is that?
I see this victory as something universal - a quencher of all thirsts, a merger into the deepest source, into the very consciousness that is the seed of each individual and of the entire universe. It transcends language and religion. It is the same for one and all. While I use certain words to describe it, they are just my words - each person may express it differently, but it is still the same for all.
Hitler used this symbol, but he did not stand for something universal or spiritual. He stood for something divisive, something crude and egotistical - the polar opposite of universal spirituality. And so the symbol did its job. If the Nazis had succeeded in their task, then you could have asked how this benevolent symbol could allow it to happen! As it is, the movement towards spiritual victory was indeed strengthened by the Nazis' defeat.
Posted 75 months ago.
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qazwsxedcrfvtg yhnjt [deleted] says:
The positive cannot be seperated from the negative. They are not opposites but compliments. The direction of the symbol is related to creation and destruction. For example, Shiva is not evil, but he is not the creator. Hitler, by the way, thought that the swastika reresented four axes spinning. The direction of axes spinning on the Nazi flag would then be clockwise.
Originally posted 68 months ago.
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qazwsxedcrfvtg yhnjt edited this topic 68 months ago.
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ipernity.com/home/nicoleb / No to censorship [deleted] says:
Do I need glasses or is the Icon of this group facing clockwise???
Originally posted 65 months ago.
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ipernity.com/home/nicoleb / No to censorship edited this topic 65 months ago.
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With the tails trailing behind, the swastika spins counter-clockwise.
Originally posted 65 months ago.
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premasagar (a group admin) edited this topic 64 months ago.
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What does it mean to say a swastika is rotating clockwise or counter clockwise? It's arbitrary and I would say this group is silly to put such a restriction on itself.
To me the group icon is facing/rotating the direction they say should not be posted to this group.
Posted 64 months ago.
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no, the swastika can be considered both right facing and clockwise, or some view it as counterclockwise. Personally I consider the right facing swasti to be clockwise.
See link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
Posted 63 months ago.
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Wilson, Thomas (Curator, Department of Prehistoric Anthropology, U.S. National Museum) (1896). The Swastika: The Earliest Known Symbol, and Its Migrations; with Observations on the Migration of Certain Industries in Prehistoric Times. In Annual report of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution. Washington DC: Smithsonian Institution
This 1896 volume is generally accepted as the earliest and definitive comment on the subject. It's quite fascinating, really, and unlike the commentary here, puts a great deal more focus on the symbol as a nearly universal decorative motif than on the swastika as regligious symbol.
Interestingly, well before the unfortunate expropriation of that symbol in WW2, there seemed to be some ongoing scholarly discussion as to iconographic rules within various religious traditions about the reversability of the symbol.
As something of a student of buddhist iconography, I have observed the routine use of this symbol in every possible form. In Mongolia I observed its use firsthand as a frequent, standard image in temple brocade, block prints of scripture, handwritten volumes of scripture, ornament on temple woodwork, stitched onto the cloth covers in which scriptures are wrapped, etc. There was to my eye - and I was looking - no discernable iconographic distinction between a left or right-facing swastika in all these items, produced from roughly the 1600s and up to about the 1920s.
To my mind, this attempt to control and monitor use of the swastika by imposing a purely arbitrary and ahistorical interpretation is just stupid and reactionary. Deference to sensitivities surrounding the contemporary use of the symbol is one thing, but to concoct these ridiculous and fictional rules in order to exert some kind of discursive copyright control on what is clearly among the oldest and most universal of human symbols is really quite perverse.
Originally posted 63 months ago.
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AnomalousNYC edited this topic 63 months ago.
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Hi All, I'm new here. I was looking for large pics of swasticas for a t-shirt design, Obviously not a black example in a white circle on red! A tastefully artistic one with plenty of colour.
Reason is I too as some others clearly do feel aggrieved at the abuse by Hitler of what could be one of the oldest universal symbols of peace we have. Far from being banned it should be exhonourated of any guilt of Hitlers actions and be installed as a symbol of world peace. SOmething we could all be united with. It would by nature always carry with it some of the significance of it's use in the 1940's but that's not a reason to be scared of it instead it would serve as a reminder of the capabilities of mans destructive characteristics. Indeed the destructive nature of life. It seems fairly apt as we as a species are evolving and realising our position in this universe it would serve to iconise the cyclicle nature of the universe we live in.
I don't agree with any of the statements about which way it should face, it is meaningless but for the meanings people put upon it and the gullibility of people to believe it. sorry but I think man is pretty much up his own arsehole in self importance. In the grand scheme of things we are nothing. Just witness a hurricane or tsunami in a built up area to see how important we are.
For what it's worth there's no such thing as evil or good, there is just what there is - just because people lable things doesn't mean it is what they call it, nor does the length of time or amount of people who agree make any difference.
One life, in peace, for all.
Posted 61 months ago.
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why dose it matter which way the swastika is rotating!?
You may just be furthermore damaging the image of the swastika with your miss-information.
Originally posted 59 months ago.
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Adrian-Naturalist edited this topic 59 months ago.
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I don't think that's even possible.
Posted 57 months ago.
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andy i suggest u to wear Red Swastika and it should not be black because we don't use black 2 make swastika.
Swast means Health
ika just a suffix
it give you power and health,it must not be fliped like nazi sigh :D
You shoud also try "OM" sigh.
I hope u like my suggession and sory 4 bad english .
Posted 55 months ago.
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ƊƚḼḎṎ (whats the point?) [deleted] says:
you can't even wear the oringal symbol
without people thinking your a nazi
we need to destroy the meaning of
the swastika
because nowa days
people over use the swastika
to protest such things like fashism
etc
Posted 43 months ago.
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Have read this topic with great interest.
I use the symbol (which I call a fylfot) in artwork relating to the Norse/Anglo-Saxon goddesses and see it as a very positive symbol and rejoice that others are trying to ressurrect it from its recent misuse.
Misunderstandings seem to be brewing which assume that the swastika has a common meaning worldwide, which bearing in mind its widespread use in Hinduism and Buddhism is forgivable.
However I believe that in the Classical world its meaning was 'Good Luck' while in Scandinavia it was called the Thorshammer, a protective symbol comparable to the sword of St Michael. In earlier cultures in the north it represented the sun.
I am not aware of any requirement from any northern culture for the swastika to rotate in either direction. In decorative work both forms often alternate. Personally I would welcome a group for all positive swasticas.
I have also looked at the more general swastika group but it is lacking this groups positive angle which is very important to me.
Thorskegga
Posted 35 months ago.
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