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This is gonna make a lot of people very happy! Good job, Steve!
Posted 29 months ago.
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Genius! a singular achievement of surpassing excellence.
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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petepixxx edited this topic 29 months ago.
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I applaud you sir!
Posted 29 months ago.
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great job! That's a lot better than a microprocessor signal to throw the flash into a "wait for quench" mode :-)
Posted 29 months ago.
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nice work.
parts & labor might not be for everyone
Posted 29 months ago.
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I agree, this project definitely isn't for everyone. Truthfully, I will wish RadioPopper's estimates for product availability weren't such a joke... If I thought they had any credibility for releasing this product sometime in the next few weeks, I wouldn't have bothered with this endeavor.
And, I *really* wish this external circuit wasn't needed. I kept exploring the JRx outputs and thinking that I'm just missing something obvious and that the unit could be put into a mode to assert the quench pin either high (Canon) or low (Nikon). Alas, to the very best of my ability to reverse engineer the I/O on the units, they just didn't provision for Canon. I even mapped out the Alien Bee phone jack thinking that they may have set those outputs up for double duty. So, maybe if/when the Canon RPCube is actually released, we'll find out that all of this really wasn't needed. But, until then, this is all anyone has got.
For what it's worth, all of the electronic's are normal "in-stock" items at Radio Shack.
Posted 29 months ago.
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I rather suspect that this is another thing they crapped together
without prior thinking, just like the stupid move not to design in
2.4GHz which would have given them worlwide compatibility
almost effortless.
My respect for Radiopoopers dropped even more now.
Posted 29 months ago.
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316 Photos I'm a little belated, but awesome job!
I may be smoking crack, but there is a lot of empty space inside the receiver. It might be possible to wire an inverter inside using the existing 3v battery to power it. That would drive down the cost of materials to maybe $1. Of course, that would almost certainly void the warranty.
I wondering if the behavior of the quench pin is modifiable in firmware and RP just needs to overload one of the dip switches (for example, "Model Light tracking") to toggle Nikon versus Canon mode.
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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Eng-Shien edited this topic 29 months ago.
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Eng-Shien,
I had the exact same thoughts... Two problems though:
1.) I don't think the Quench pin on the 1/8" connector could be firmware modifiable. It appears to be an opto-isolator output that floats when it's de-asserted (Since it floats, that's why I needed to add a pull-up resistor in the circuit.) . Maybe it has tri-state outputs and can be asserted either high, low or float, but I suspect it's it's just not wired to be able to assert to ground.
2.) I kept thinking there must be something obvious that I'm missing. So, I *did* map all of the outputs with all possible combination of DIP switches (except for the channel switches).
I didn't want to modify the JRx unit itself. And, yes, there are other ways that this same logic change could have been accomplished--Logic Gates (like a NOT gate), inverter, voltage comparator, etc. I ended up choosing what I did because I wanted something robust enough to run off of the leeched power from the sync pin and also with parts that could be obtained from local electronics shops. (Like Radio Shack). If anyone creates another solution, I'd love to hear what you come up with!
I should note, most of the cost of the project is in the hotshoe. The resistors, diodes, etc, cost a few dollars.
Steve
EDIT: I corrected an inaccurate statement about which way the opto-isolated output asserts at the end of #1 above.
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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316 Photos edited this topic 29 months ago.
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I got a PM with a question about the schematic and I thought I'd address it here for everyone's sake because now that I look at the circuit, it is confusing...
There's a node labeled "Vcc". This is leftover from my first version of the circuit which required an external power source. In the current form, if the circuit is put together properly, you do NOT need to connect this to anything. If the circuit is working and the flash is turned on, you should see around 3.5 volts at that node with a volt meter. Also, you can dis-connect the sync pin from the circuit and supply 3 - 6 volts at this location. (You could use a CR123 battery or even run some wires from the battery of the JRx receiver.)
Posted 29 months ago.
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You probably just did all of the R & D for RadioPopper - I don't think that they actually had a way for the RPcube to work. They now have a crowdsourced solution for Nikon AND Canon, which of course means that they can finally start manufacturing them.
If anyone thinks I am being too hard on RP, think of this. It took users about two weeks to figure out how to create a Nikon hotshoe adapted from the off-camera shoe cord, and how hard was that? And as Canon and Nikon are apples and oranges in the way that the quench pin functions, and it takes something like this clever mod to make it work on Canon, they could have had a functioning Nikon RPcube when they released the JrXs, which would have kept the Canon users hanging on to the hope that their release was "just around the corner".
I hope you have a copyleft on this info, and file for a patent to keep RP from profiting off of your work. I paid extra for the JrX Studios and have had dumb triggers for my added expense. I also spent about 20 hours of experimentation trying to figure out how to create a Canon version before realizing that the camera was communicating with the flash and the mod had to "fake" the flash into believing it was mounted on the camera - which was way beyond my grasp of electronics.
That said, thank you for your excellent work and careful explanation. You are the man!
Posted 29 months ago.
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Hopefully flashzebra will jump on this and get it on the market!
Posted 29 months ago.
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Great work! Plus it's fairly easy to build. Just to make sure we eventually get a Canon RP cube here is how I would do it if I had firmware control. A Canon version of the receiver would keep the "quench" opto-isolator asserted, holding the quenchout low normally, then de-assert when its time to quench. Then the circuit inside the cube is reduced to a diode, capacitor and resistor to provide the logic high. In effect the Canon and Nikon quench signals need to be mirror images of each other. A really clever programmer may be able to have the receiver auto-detect which flavour of flash is on there and act accordingly.
Posted 29 months ago.
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Very nice work!
Would it be possible/feasable to have the circuit board made at a reasonable price in a small run (group buy)?
Posted 29 months ago.
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I started a new thread with instructions on how to make an "Easy" DIY Canon RPCube. But, that solution only gives you 2-3 stops of power control. If you can live with that, it's just as simple as the Nikon solution.
Easy DIY Canon RPCube
Enjoy!
Posted 29 months ago.
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I really want to try this out, what casing did you use to house the circuit? I get my JRx's sometime this week and I really want to be able to control the power on my 580ex2.
I think its time for a trip to my local radioshack
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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kingfal edited this topic 29 months ago.
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Radio shack sells small project boxes that are about the same size as the one I used. However, they do not sell proto boards that are pre-sized to fit inside their project boxes.... :( You can really easily cut their boards and drill mounting holes. But, I had some small project boxes from a previous project that had pre-cut and drilled proto boards. I think these are the ones I used. Project Box The proto boards are on the "Related Items" tab.
If you're ordering, remember you'll need a Canon hotshoe. Or, if you don't mind adding a 1/8" jack to your flash foot, you can directly wire your flash and bypass the need for the hotshoe. (Hopefully that made sense.) Either way, I put a pin reference in the "Easy" version of the project that I mentioned above. .
Please let me know how it turns out for you! I'm quite excited to hear if and when others have gotten this working.
Posted 29 months ago.
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Thanks! Someone might beat me to it though, since I don't have the hotshoe and my triggers come in on friday. Hopefully I can get it all working after this weekend
Posted 29 months ago.
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Steve, you're AWESOME! Now, I'm wondering if the theory behind this could also be what would make the cube for an Olympus flash work the same way?
I tried making an Olympus cube but it seems that flash also needs to think it's on the camera.
Your thoughts?
Posted 29 months ago.
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wpjma,
I'm not familiar with the Olympus flashes... Assuming that it has an older style Analog TTL capability, then there are likely 3 scenarios:
1. Quench asserts low: Use the Nikon solution and try all of the hotshoe pins.
2. Quench asserts high: You can try the "Easy" version that I linked to above and try to find the quench pin. But, this is dependent on the flash asserting the sync pin high immediately after the JRx releases it and Olympus may not behave the same way that Canon does. If the easy version works to give you limited power control, then the schematic I have above will likely also work to give full power control to Olympus.
3. There's a more elaborate protocol... Good luck! You'll need it!
But, that's all speculation. All I can say is that the discovery process for Canon was a long hard journey and many people have an opinion on what to try and how easy it should be to figure out. But, it's really not that easy if you're the one trying to figure it out... So, I wish you luck. If I can be of any assistance, please don't hesitate to ask.
Steve
Posted 29 months ago.
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316 Photos,
For the resistors in the circuit ... are they 1/8 watt resistors ..... that's what they appear to be looking like in the photo?
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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randymor edited this topic 29 months ago.
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Holy crap! Well done dude. [bows in admiration]
Posted 29 months ago.
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1/8 watt is fine, but 1/4 watt eould be fine also. this is a vety low power circuit.
Posted 29 months ago.
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Again, Canon has to be a pain in the flash department. [sigh]
Posted 29 months ago.
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Finally got round to building this over the weekend. Works great on my 580EX. I took a set of shots across the power range and it seems to be getting to 1/128 or perhaps a little lower.
Great job on uncovering the secrets of the Canon flash protocol!
Posted 29 months ago.
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BFW,
Great job! You made my day! I'm really glad to know that someone else has been able to use this and benefit from it.
Steve
Posted 29 months ago.
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I finished up making this the other night and tested it tonight. It does work ... somewhat ... It will shut off with the JRX transmitter set to zero as it should, and turning it up sllightly, it will fire at about 1/128, but the 2nd time I trigger it ... it will fire a full power shot.
Pretty much every time I test it ... First pop will be very low power, and the next pop will be full power, without touching the transmitter control knob.
BTW ... this is being tried on a 430EX
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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randymor edited this topic 29 months ago.
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@randymor - I don't have any Canon flashes, but I did have some problems with Nikon DiY cube at first. Make sure that you connect the JrX receiver/cube, turn the flash on first (in TTL mode), and *then* turn on the JrX receiver. The receiver "looks" for the flash when it turns on, so the flash must be on first. When you turn on the receiver, you should get a full pop on the flash. Then, you should be able to adjust the power from the transmitter and trigger from the transmitter at various powers. (As you turn the transmitter knob, you should see the light on the receiver flickering, indicating that it's receiving updates from the transmitter.)
I don't know what I did wrong the first time I tried my JrX studios with my DiY Nikon cube, but it didn't seem to be working at all. The next day, I carefully went through these steps, and everything worked perfectly. I've never had a problem since then.
If it's still not working, you might want to check with fellow photographers to see whether you can hook the receiver up to a supported studio flash. That way, you'll be able to verify that the receiver is working and adjusting power on a studio strobe that is supported. If that doesn't work, then you'll be able to contact the vendor for help/replacement.
Good luck!
Posted 29 months ago.
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Randymor,
A 430EX is the only EX series flash I don't have to test with... I did test with the older 420EX, 580EX and 580EX II and everything was fine. My guess is that there's a problem with the construction of the circuit. I have an updated copy of the schematic that includes some notes advice on how to debug it.
www.flickr.com/photos/33641119@N03/4245931748/
Good luck!
Posted 29 months ago.
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One question: does Ettl work with this rpcube? It's very important to me. I'd like to use etll for my canon 580ex II like Radio Popper PX does.
Thank in advance.
Posted 29 months ago.
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No. eTTL only works with PX units. JrX units will only ever give you manual control of the flash output power. That's true whether it's Canon or Nikon.
Posted 29 months ago.
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Thanks 316
Originally posted 29 months ago.
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Pete Nicol edited this topic 29 months ago.
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I finally figured out why I couldn't get it to work. ...... The circuit board and components checked out A-OK, and I then found a cold solder joint in the 3 wire cord stereo jack that I had made. All fixed now and this works great.
I really appreciate the effort you put into this and sharing it with the rest of us.
Next question ...has anyone tried this circuit with any of the older TTL Canon "EZ" speedlites yet ..... I am thinking it would work well with those, but don't have one to try out.
Posted 29 months ago.
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I tried this with my old 420EZ and did not get it to work. Not sure why but it may just have been pilot error. I will try again but would like to know if anyone else has had problems.
Posted 29 months ago.
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Steve, this is fantastic work. I recently bought a JRx transmitter and two receivers and am about to assemble my first DIY RPCube with the help of your instructions and a friend who knows what he's doing with a soldering iron.
I also have two Canon compatible hot shoe adaptors with 1/8" plugs which I was planning on using, but the plugs are mono. Am I doomed with them? I can't wrap my pea brain equipped head around it as your circuit schematics are clearly made for stereo plugs.
Posted 28 months ago.
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Petri, I'm not for certain BUT based on the Nikon RP cubes I've built, you need the stereo plugs because the mono plug lacks the third contact point on it.
Posted 28 months ago.
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Bravo. Can't believe I missed this earlier. Excellent work.
Posted 28 months ago.
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I have used the Nikon DIY RPCUBES to fire 3 sb24's from one JRX Studio receiver ... Does anyone know if using one DIY Canon rpcube, as described in this thread, could trigger and control more than one Canon strobe at a time.
Posted 28 months ago.
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Mine works too! If you are thinking about jumping in on this project, here's a few hints.
www.icmgt.com/W9LZ
Jim
Posted 28 months ago.
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This works amazingly well - thanks! I ordered an OC-E3 clone from ebay to serve as my housing and hot shoe - a bit bulky, but serves the purpose.
At first, I could not get it to work. I went through the suggested trouble shooting tips and it all checked out. I then re-read the initial instruction:
Canon Hotshoe pins as you're looking at the flash hotshoe:
..1..
2...3
4...5
Pin 1: Sync
Pin 3: Quench
I had incorrectly assumed the same pinout would apply to connecting up the hot shoe, when indeed 2 and 3 are reversed. Once I switched those, I was good to go!
Posted 26 months ago.
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Anyone care to whip me up a few(3)? for payment of course.
thanks.
Originally posted 26 months ago.
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brandonsundt edited this topic 26 months ago.
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While that circuit works it really should have been done with a PNP transistor. The above circuit is always on and the transistor turns off when the radio triggers it. It is always pulling power from the X-sync pin from the flash.
The following circuit also inverts the signal but the transistor only turns on when the RP signal pulse occurs.
The ground symbol (at the bottom of the capacitor) needs to be connected to both the RP ground and the flash ground connection (side contact).
.
Posted 26 months ago.
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@rudy__ ....... That is nice. I would like that on a T Shirt. I have no idea what it means, but it looks nice.
Posted 26 months ago.
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So nobody cares to make any money and help a fellow photographer out ?
Posted 26 months ago.
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I give it six months and this will be the newest feature of the RF-603. You need to copyright this!
Good Job!
Posted 26 months ago.
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I just knocked together another one of these and it works great. I bought my parts from Radio Shack and since they sell parts in packs that have dozens of parts, I could build a bunch. I say this to encourage others to do the same. Steve has provided us with an easy way to manually control our flash units where Radio Popper has failed. I don't have a clue how the circuit works and would have gladly paid for some RPCubes, but RP still doesn't have a product to offer. This was a fun project and not hard to complete. Thank You Steve.
Posted 26 months ago.
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brandonsundt,
Looking for the Canon cable version or the ones I've built? Contact me via my website.
Posted 26 months ago.
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@Rudy , in your version is the sync connected to both the RP and flash sides as well?
Posted 26 months ago.
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Yes X-sync is still needed to trigger the flash. So the X-sync output of the RP unit goes to both the flash X-sync and the diode connection with the X-sync listed.
I changed the drawing to make things more clear.
Radio on the left, Canon connections on the right.
Originally posted 26 months ago.
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rudy__ edited this topic 26 months ago.
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I can make this as needed if someone needs help.
Michael
MichaelBass@charter.net
www.MichaelBassDesigns.com
Posted 26 months ago.
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Ok, I'm confused. I did this on a breadboard following Rudy's diagram above. It works but seems to only give me two settings. With the radio popper dial all the way up and all the way down. Everything in between just seems the same as the low setting.
Any ideas what I could be doing wrong? I'll shoot a shot of the breadboard in the morning.
Posted 25 months ago.
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do you have the flash on TTL or ETTL?
Brian
Posted 25 months ago.
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What model flash are you using? I've had confirmation that this works with the 580EX. (I've tried the above circuit on my 580EXs as well). It also worked on my 200E.
I tried it with the 420EZ and that flash does not work with the above circuit or the one from the OP. That I also had confirmation on. The flash seems to expect a number of conditions to be met before it recognizes the quench pin input. I didn't spend a lot of time to figure out why the 420EZ didn't work. Wasn't woth my time.
If you can post a clear image of your breadboarded circuit I'll check it over.
Posted 25 months ago.
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BFW and Rudy,
I'm using a 580EXII and had it set on ETTL. This is a borrowed flash for the sake of testing the circuit. When I try to adjust the mode I get ETTL, MULTI, and M(anual).
Having tried it on all, it seems only ETTL provides for the varying levels of the popper. A shot of the breadboard is forthcoming.
Mitch
Posted 25 months ago.
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Well, it's always something simple ya know.
I was setting up to shoot the breadboard and got wondering if the mini plug might be shorted, so I did a quick check of the continuity of the wires going to the plug. Turns out when I went to check the tip the wire I was expecting to be the tip wasn't! Long story short, everything was wired up correctly EXCEPT I had the tip and the ground wires on the board swapped around. Now it works fine.
Rudy - thanks for that diagram. I have ZERO electronics experience but with your diagram and a quick online tutorial about using a breadboard I was able to make this thing work.
Mega Kudos to 360 for figuring this thing out in the first place too!
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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wpjma edited this topic 25 months ago.
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rudy: not that I'll be making one of these, but what does "schottkey diode lower drop than" mean? Use anything w/ a lower voltage drop than the two you listed? Or use one of the two you listed?
Nice diagram and slightly simpler design than the OP's...
Posted 25 months ago.
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First I have got to congratulate wpjma on getting the circuit working. Considering the lack of previous experience, you done good! And thanks for the note on getting the circuit working.
kenkyee wrote: "but what does "schottkey diode lower drop than" mean?"
Diodes are semiconductor directional switches. They let the current go in one direction and not in the other. (Look at the symbol and I'm sure you can pick the direction the current can go.) But it is not a perfect switch. You lose some voltage through the device. Different diodes are made with different characteristics. One of the characteristics of a Schottky diode has is a lower voltage drop.
The X-sync/trigger voltage of the Canon flash is about 4 volts. That is not a lot as a starting point to power an electronic circuit. In the original circuit (by 316 photos) a 1N914 was specified. Not a bad part choice in that location but it still will lose about 0.6 volts. A Schottky diode (like a BAT41 or a 1N5817) will only lose about 0.2 volts. So you have a little more voltage to work with.
I expected that anyone who makes this circuit would have a bit of an electronic background so I didn't go into much detail on the note in the schematic. Any of the above will work but the better choice would be to use a Schottky diode.
Posted 25 months ago.
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Ok, so, now that 360 and Rudy have caused me to obtain a very basic understanding of electronics, the monster is alive.
Found a place online called Pad2Pad (www.pad2pad.com) that makes custom PC boards. They provide the software for drawing the board, then you simply upload the design pay a fair price and in about 11 days you get your custom PC board.
Here is the board I designed using the free Pad2Pad software following the schematic above. According to Pad2Pad, four of these boards (1.5 x 1.75" to fit in a RadioShack enclosure) would cost $111.00 delivered. Ouch. Not sure if I'm eager to get them made just yet but novel idea anyway.
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/wpjma/4564720516/]
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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wpjma edited this topic 25 months ago.
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Make your own pcb...
look it up , way cheaper...
www.robotroom.com/PCB.html
Posted 25 months ago.
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Thank you MichaelSD! That site rocks!
I'm so new to this I didn't even know what a PCB was until a few hours ago. Just liked the software from Pad2Pad for figuring out how to lay this thing out.
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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wpjma edited this topic 25 months ago.
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For such a simple circuit I just wire the parts together using the component leads as wires. (see my next post)
I made half a dozen of the of the following circuit that way and it is more complex than the above one.
Not good for showing a lot of detail. This was an optical slave design I did. No circuit board. All point to point. Twist the leads together then solder and trim.
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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rudy__ edited this topic 25 months ago.
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Hmmm, the possiblities...
Posted 25 months ago.
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rudy: "A Schottky diode (like a BAT41 or a 1N5817) will only lose about 0.2 volts"
Thanks for the clarification. I just thought it was odd to list some diode part#s on the schematic and say just to use something w/ lower than those or in other words, "don't use those" ;-)
Posted 25 months ago.
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Done without a circuit board.
Posted 25 months ago.
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That is so totally cool. Well, now I'm gonna build another one with that inline. Totally cool.
Thanks Rudy.
Posted 25 months ago.
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If I were to do the above I would wire/solder it up and have it mounted in the enclosure. Test & make sure it all works. Then I would use some hot melt glue to hold in place so it can't get knocked around and short anything out.
Posted 25 months ago.
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This is totally awesome.. thanks guys, will put it soon into my SPOTduino a.k.a. DIY Radiopopper for my other canon flash. Before I only know how to quench Nikon and Vivitar flash.. Cool..!
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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abbemu edited this topic 25 months ago.
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Rudy - what part designation is the photo transistor in your DIY OPtical slaves ?
Posted 25 months ago.
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@MrDoug - You might want to look at www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157606974900277/ as there is more information there that you might be interested in.
As far as the optical transistor, I didn't list a part because I jut grabbed what I had on hand, reclaimed parts. I have pulled a bunch of phototransistors off old disk drives. I have also used some that I pulled from camera flash Auto circuits. I modified some of these flashes by replacing the sensor with a variable resistor (pot) and then used the sensor for an optical slave.
But almost any regular photo transistor can be used. And a lower sensitivity device seems to work better since it doesn't get overloaded as quickly. But go through the above listed thread and if you have more questions then post them there.
Originally posted 25 months ago.
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rudy__ edited this topic 25 months ago.
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Has BFW or any one else tried to get a radiopopper JRx to work on a Canon 540ez?
Posted 25 months ago.
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Ditto - Will it work on an old Canon 540ez - TTL flash - made for film cameras?
Posted 22 months ago.
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"Will it work on an old Canon 540ez"
www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157624396482784/
Posted 22 months ago.
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